JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Blaze! Blockbuster(s)! Lady Vic!

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Ken
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Ken »

greycrusader wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:26 pm And of course this was right before the out-of-left-field New 52 reboot of the whole line.
If had been the New 52 versions, I wouldn't be in this forum today.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Jabroniville »

That Sullivan Guy wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:50 pm
Ken wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:29 am The DCA build is technically wrong, in that the Atom didn't really develop his Atomic Punch until the early '90s, after the JSA had escaped Ragnarok. And in those stories Al said, explicitly that his super strength had worn away. It was also Fatiguing.

As an Atom fan, I found the research done by the DCA writers on the various Atoms to be lacking.

As the writer of the entry in question, I would respond by saying you're assuming the process was more straight-forward and hands-off than it actually was. With over two dozen writers turning in a massive number of characters in short order with the PLs already decided by Jon and Steve before the characters were ever assigned, there were already restraints and creative issue disagreements floating around (not to mention very real and important word count/page space considerations*). This was combined with the personal interests of the developer, which didn't always coincide with existing accurate knowledge and appreciation for all characters equally. For example, I was originally told to make Doctor Fate a PL12. Jon really knew, well, not a great deal about the character, as I found out discussing the matter with him. It took me a three page email to Jon with MANY comic issue citations to convince him otherwise (including referring him to Winninger's write-up in the WWII sourcebook for Mayfair's DC game, as Jon knew Ray a lot better than he knew me), and he still thought I had made Nelson seriously overpowered (but eventually let the matter drop because he figured I knew the character better than he did).
Oh, neat! Good to have another GR writer/freelancer on here. Given what Greycrusader has said about his own additions to the project, I can believe it. The difficulties with DC editorial, the random mind-changing going on, and the general disarray going on at DC... those can all affect builds. It was obvious things were a bit odd when I noticed that nearly every "Giant-Size" character in the books had completely different set-ups for their Growth (I believe Giganta was the one who had the "Growth (Limited to Non-ST & STA Growths)" Flaw to avoid the trouble with overly-boosting stats at high Growth levels, for example.

My own statlines for DC characters are often extremely random unless I've read a LOT of comics featuring the characters- as DC has both horrible continuity, random retcons, and really, REALLY awful online bios for whatever reason. So even though I had as many issues with the stats as anyone (the infamous Killer Croc/Lady Shiva issues were most-famous), I can hardly blame the writers for what went down there. In my own thread, I have total freedom to go on as long as I want, and make as many side-builds as I want, too. And I never had an editor breathing down my neck.
When I turned in the first draft on Pratt, it was for the unpowered mystery man version with a sidebar about introducing his later Atomic Strength (citing the modern pseudo-retcon with Stalker's atomic goon exploding) and then the Atomic Punch (citing the sadly short-lived 90s post-Zero Hour series). I was asked to consolidate the powers for a "classic" modern version and then describe how to strip stuff away to make the original Mysteryman. This was far from the only back-and-forth. The animated discussions about Atom Smasher, Spectre, Wildcat, (modern) Judomaster, and several others were very frustrating at times.
Now I wanna know what the issues were about Atom-Smasher. I'm probably his most notorious fan on here :).
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Ares »

Ryan Choi is one of those unfortunate things that happen when you make a new character a legacy hero of a character who is A) Still around and B) Locked into the role. For some reason, the only time I can think of multiple heroes sharing the same name is the various Earth 1 and Earth 2 heroes, largely because at least originally they were from different universes. Even once everything became merged together post-Crisis, the JSA were basically exiled from DC for about 7 years before being brought back into the main continuity. The degree of separation from the old WWII heroes and the modern ones were enough that having a Golden Age Flash, Green Lantern and Atom didn't really throw anyone off. It also helped with the Green Lantern and Flash names having been passed to multiple people by the time the JSA returned.

Meanwhile I feel like good characters like Ryan Choi, Miles Morales, Jason Rusch and Jaime Reyes tend to suffer because they were given identities of other characters that are more 'entrenched' in the role. Regardless of how good those characters might be, most people associate Ray Palmer, Peter Parker, Ronnie Raymond and Ted Kord with the roles they're trying to fill. Instead of a permanent replacement, the goal should have been something closer to what happened with Jim Rhodes or Eric Masterson, where they got the main hero role for a while, but then got their own identities. War Machine is pretty popular in his own right. Not Iron Man or Thor popular, but he has plenty of fans who were happy to see him in the MCU. Meanwhile Eric Master's book sold well and there are still folks that miss him to this day.

In the same way I'd push Miles to take over as the Scarlet Spider and Jaime to be the Silver Scarab, I'd wany Ryan and Jason to have their own identities as well. Maybe give Ryan something like the Micron identity from Batman Beyond, where he's learned how to do both the shrinking and growing from studying Ray's tech and Atom Smasher, but there'd be some limit to it.

As for Jason, the Martin Stein/Ronnie relationship was a core part of the character, and lacking that really hurts both Ronnie and Jason. The only way to make it work would be to do something like what the Batman: The Brave and the Bold cartoon did, making Ronnie the older, experienced veteran hero while Jason is the young teenage science nerd. Ronnie gives Jason advice on what to do, tactics and the like, while Jason grows into his own hero. Alternatively, Stein and Ronnie could be Firestorm while Jason's time as Firestorm could have given him his own powers that he has to get a handle on.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by JDRook »

Image
source

Atom Smasher - PL 10

Strength 5/15, Stamina 5/15, Agility 2, Dexterity 2, Fighting 5, Intellect 1, Awareness 1, Presence 2

Advantages
All-out Attack, Daze (Intimidation), Fast Grab, Improved Grab, Interpose, Languages 1 (Kahndaqi), Power Attack, Startle

Skills
Athletics 5 (+10/+20), Deception 2 (+4), Expertise: Vehicle Repair 10 (+11), Insight 4 (+5), Intimidation 6 (+8/+13), Perception 5 (+6), Persuasion 4 (+6), Ranged Combat: Throw 3 (+5), Technology 4 (+5), Vehicles 7 (+9)

Powers
Bigger & Tougher
. . Atomic Expansion: Growth 10 (Linked; +10 STR, +10 STA, +5 Intimidate, -10 Stealth, -5 active defenses, +2 size ranks, +10 mass ranks, +1 )
. . Tougher: Impervious Toughness 5
Tough: Impervious Toughness 5

Offense
Initiative +2
Grab, +5 (DC Spec 25)
Throw, +5 (DC 30)
Unarmed, +5 (DC 30)

Complications
Checkered Past: Atom Smasher has skirted a number of gray areas during his relatively short career.
Responsibility: Albert tries to honor his godfather’s memory and reputation.

Languages
Kahndaqi, Native(?) English

Defense
Dodge 5, Parry 5, Fortitude 15, Toughness 15, Will 5

Power Points
Abilities 46 + Powers 30 + Advantages 8 + Skills 25 (50 ranks) + Defenses 17 = 126

We're back to the Pratt/Atom dynasty, with Albert Rothstein the godson of Al Pratt and the grandson of Cyclotron, the reluctant villain who inadvertently gave Pratt powers. This is yet another character I encountered for the first time in the DCA books, and I initially thought he was a villain. I know now the full face mask is actually an homage to Al Pratt's original costume (which I also hadn't seen since DCA only shows Pratt in the half mask), but between the inherent "punching-down" in his art work and the business casual Cobra Commander look, it didn't immediately scream helping the downtrodden to me in a way I'd expect Pratt's legacy to go. But I guess his heroic status does come into question throughout his career.

Image

His build is very straightforward, with ALL of his Attack Bonuses and Defenses at 5 ranks before you starting applying the size-changing, which pushes his damage and hard defenses up to 15 at full size (Growth 10 is about 20-30ft technically, but like every growth character out there he's been much taller at some point) and PL10 on offense and defense. The only complexity in powers is his base 5 Impervious Toughness that's on all the time and another 5 ImpTou that is linked to Growth and presumably increases 1 rank per 2 Growth. There's a typo on Intimidation at full size and a miss on how Athletics is affected, but otherwise no real math issues.

Overall he's a very underpointed PL10 who's also very Toughness- and Damage-shifted. In terms of playability he's a very simple Big Guy build that would fit in any team that needs some punch, and the Growth could potentially be a lot of fun. Those extra points could be used to customize almost anything to make him even tougher (some immunities maybe), a better team player or fill another role. His Impervious could be increased so it always matches his Toughness (which may have been the original intent but confused by the retooling of Impervious for 3e).

One thing you technically can't do, though, is increase his Growth rank any higher without breaking PL, weakening his base form or getting weird with specialized Flaws. This is one of the problems I have with Growth, besides the obscene point discount that will make these underpointed Big Guys an ongoing theme. As we saw with Ray Palmer's Atom, you can figure out a "small enough" Shrinking rank and then have a "so small you're beyond normal comprehension" alternate and make a Shrinker with effectively no minimum size but still with a logical cap on mechanical bonuses. Conceptually, you can do the same thing with Growth, although it's a little more complex.

I fiddled around with some alternative growth powerset ideas and came up with this little package:

Infinite Growth Potential
- Even Bigger: Elongation, Quirk (Proportional Growth) = 1p/r - 1
- Even Heavier: Immunity to Movement, Half Effect = 5p

Proportional Growth Elongation was a suggestion from the boards I'd seen ages ago but can't recall the source. The idea being that the PC can inflate to huge size without changing any traits except Reach (and, I realized, a rank bonus to Grab DC), allowing for a character to be literally miles tall without breaking PL. The Quirk essentially covers the mechanical limit that the PC's Reach will be half their height; I considered going with a full Flaw, but the increased Grab DC makes sense for a giant and doesn't require increase STR, and it's already dirt cheap anyway. In terms of Size Rank, every rank of Elongation adds 1 Size rank or the length/height equivalent of 4 Growth ranks.

The Immunity is a bit of a math cheat. Under the assumption that you can define Mass as STR Limited to Resisting Movement, Permanent, I created a houserule/guideline that allows you to set your PC's mass at any arbitrary but fixed value up to STR rank, so you don't have to pay points for concept mass unless your PC is heavier than they are strong. Using that combined with a Half Effect Movement Immunity therefore requires any attacker attempting to lift the PC gets their STR halved to lift the target mass, or put another way, they require double the STR.

The math proof is a little convoluted, but the application is easy. Adding a minimum 2 rank version of this to Atom Smasher above would allow him to grow to the equivalent of Growth 18/Size 2.5, or in the 150'-200' range, with an effective mass of 30, for a cost of 6p.

Or if you like something a little more published, there's a hidden gem in the Size Power Profile for Mass Dispersal: -2p/r Flaw that doesn't add STR or STA, but still make you easier to hit, more intimidating, and of course the reach and mass. It's used in one entry linked to Insubstantial, but could just as easily allow for truly huge characters for roughly the same cost as what I outline.

Image
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Jabroniville »

YAY FOR HANDSOME-SMASHER- I mean, ATOM-SMASHER!

Al is, again, a nuisance because of the way Growth works in the game- super-strong in his baseline form, he gets way out of control at higher sizes. And like most Growing Guys, his power alternates by the story- he's so pathetically below Black Adam that a fight between them is a joke at any size, yet there are issues where he single-handedly wipes out Kobra, Extant, half the JSA including possibly Power Girl (in the Khandaq invasion story arc), and more. He has a lot of hitting power but not as much durability, which I guess plays into things at his size level (other characters can easily hit him, so they can all just Power Attack for +5 damage).
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Ken »

Albert, as Nuklon, began his career as a very low-level strongman. His godfather, Al Pratt, had trained him much the same way Joe Morgan had trained Al. Combine that kind of physical training with his 7'6" frame, and he was tough and strong, but not truly superhuman. Then during his first adventure, he was exposed to Thorium radiation, and those genes he inherited from Grandpa Cyclotron kicked in. He got a good deal stronger, somewhat tougher, and gained the ability to phase, get denser, and even get taller. But only up to about Growth 4.

I don't know when or how Albert's powers changed. Well, when, presumably, was after he, Metamorpho, and Icemaiden I (Sigrid - the one with the blue skin who debuted in the Super Friends comic) bailed out of the Justice League Refuge when it was destroyed by the Hyperclan. I think that was the last time he appeared as Nuklon.

When he later appeared as Atom-Smasher, his powers had changed, but he finally had a decent haircut. Which he had under his hood.

The answer to the Growth problem breaking PL is not in the rules, but in maintaining an internal logic with them. If a shrunken character becomes harder to hit because they have shrunk, then a normal sized person should become harder to hit by a character who has grown - at least up to the point that the grown character starts getting Area attacks.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Tattooedman »

Ares wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:55 am Meanwhile I feel like good characters like Ryan Choi, Miles Morales, Jason Rusch and Jaime Reyes tend to suffer because they were given identities of other characters that are more 'entrenched' in the role. Regardless of how good those characters might be, most people associate Ray Palmer, Peter Parker, Ronnie Raymond and Ted Kord with the roles they're trying to fill. Instead of a permanent replacement, the goal should have been something closer to what happened with Jim Rhodes or Eric Masterson, where they got the main hero role for a while, but then got their own identities. War Machine is pretty popular in his own right. Not Iron Man or Thor popular, but he has plenty of fans who were happy to see him in the MCU. Meanwhile Eric Master's book sold well and there are still folks that miss him to this day.

In the same way I'd push Miles to take over as the Scarlet Spider and Jaime to be the Silver Scarab, I'd wany Ryan and Jason to have their own identities as well. Maybe give Ryan something like the Micron identity from Batman Beyond, where he's learned how to do both the shrinking and growing from studying Ray's tech and Atom Smasher, but there'd be some limit to it.

As for Jason, the Martin Stein/Ronnie relationship was a core part of the character, and lacking that really hurts both Ronnie and Jason. The only way to make it work would be to do something like what the Batman: The Brave and the Bold cartoon did, making Ronnie the older, experienced veteran hero while Jason is the young teenage science nerd. Ronnie gives Jason advice on what to do, tactics and the like, while Jason grows into his own hero. Alternatively, Stein and Ronnie could be Firestorm while Jason's time as Firestorm could have given him his own powers that he has to get a handle on.
And once again, Ares shows why he understands most comics fans better than the supposed "experts" at the Big 2 and why if he ever (somehow) became the one in charge of such things I would waste no time in buying the books he oversaw.
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:45 pm
LOl- "The Tattooed Man"? What kind of ABSOLUTE DILDO would refer to himself as "The Tattooed Man" :P!?!
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Ares »

Tattooedman wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:48 am
And once again, Ares shows why he understands most comics fans better than the supposed "experts" at the Big 2 and why if he ever (somehow) became the one in charge of such things I would waste no time in buying the books he oversaw.
Aw shucks. :oops: Thank you very much.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Tattooedman »

Ares wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:56 pm
Tattooedman wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:48 am
And once again, Ares shows why he understands most comics fans better than the supposed "experts" at the Big 2 and why if he ever (somehow) became the one in charge of such things I would waste no time in buying the books he oversaw.
Aw shucks. :oops: Thank you very much.
You are more than welcome.
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:45 pm
LOl- "The Tattooed Man"? What kind of ABSOLUTE DILDO would refer to himself as "The Tattooed Man" :P!?!
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

Oh, neat! Good to have another GR writer/freelancer on here. Given what Greycrusader has said about his own additions to the project, I can believe it. The difficulties with DC editorial, the random mind-changing going on, and the general disarray going on at DC... those can all affect builds. It was obvious things were a bit odd when I noticed that nearly every "Giant-Size" character in the books had completely different set-ups for their Growth (I believe Giganta was the one who had the "Growth (Limited to Non-ST & STA Growths)" Flaw to avoid the trouble with overly-boosting stats at high Growth levels, for example.

My own statlines for DC characters are often extremely random unless I've read a LOT of comics featuring the characters- as DC has both horrible continuity, random retcons, and really, REALLY awful online bios for whatever reason. So even though I had as many issues with the stats as anyone (the infamous Killer Croc/Lady Shiva issues were most-famous), I can hardly blame the writers for what went down there. In my own thread, I have total freedom to go on as long as I want, and make as many side-builds as I want, too. And I never had an editor breathing down my neck.
Once upon a time, there was a private listserv online for feedback/playtesting/informal editing for M&M. I joined this right before the end of 1st edition and in time enough to make some comments about the beta draft for 2nd ed. By the end of 2nd ed, Steve, and then Jon, winnowed things down because the responses weren't coming in with any frequency, weren't productive ("I like X/I don't like X"), and a number of people it was felt were just using membership to get access to pdf files without doing anything helpful in return. Jon created a new second listserv called "The Secret Think Tank" and a much smaller cross-section of people were invited there (mostly freelancers), of whom I was one. I tell you guys this to lead into explaining that, in addition to the things Greycrusader mentioned upthread, there was also a lot of back and forth with the members of this list and Jon+Steve in regards to the DC stuff. Since the 3rd ed rules set was brand new, some of it was rules bejabbers and clarifying, but some it was also regarding the two dozen plus writers' sometimes very disparate view on what the numbers and mechanics actually represented in terms of translating established characters to the system.

As one example, and I can't speak to who did Bane's stats, but the original had Str 7 base and Str 12 when pumped up with Venom. My feedback to this was to ask for someone, anyone, to give me the name and issue numbers of the comics where Bane was shown throwing around APCs willy-nilly, or where he was seen to rip bank vault doors out of their moorings. I suggested 5/7 as more accurate (which is what Jon finally went with if memory serves).

This sort of thing happened many times.
Now I wanna know what the issues were about Atom-Smasher. I'm probably his most notorious fan on here :).
I was given Atom Smasher's PL as a 10 when the character was assigned to me. When I wrote him up (the write-up that made it into print), I wasn't happy with him, because the way Growth worked RAW, to keep him at a base I thought appropriate, I couldn't give him the full ranks of the power I felt he needed. I added as a note to the developer that only giving him 5 to 7 ranks of the actual full Growth power (and adjusting his attack bonus up to the +7/+8 I felt would be more accurate as that would then be kosher with his final adjusted damage bonus) but then adding several more ranks of either a feature limited to the size change only aspect of Growth, or a Limited to size change only version of the Growth power would, IMO, be more accurate.

Crickets. No response.

I get my copy of the pdf and start looking through and I see the original stats as I wrote them for Al. I think to myself, "Ah, well. They disagreed. Such is life."

Then I find several other growing characters built with similar variations to what I had suggested. I was... annoyed.

Again, these things happened a lot.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Atomic Skull! Atrocitus! Aztek! Azrael

Post by JDRook »

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Atomic Skull - PL 11

Strength 12, Stamina 8, Agility 6/1, Dexterity 2, Fighting 4, Intellect 1, Awareness 1, Presence 2

Advantages
Chokehold, Close Attack 6, Equipment 2, Improved Hold, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Startle

Skills
Acrobatics 4 (+10), Athletics 4 (+16), Expertise: Film History 6 (+7), Expertise: Movie Serials 8 (+9), Intimidation 6 (+8), Perception 8 (+9), Ranged Combat: Atomic Blast 8 (+10), Vehicles 10 (+12)

Powers
Atomic Blast: Blast 11 (DC 26)
Superhuman Reflexes: Enhanced Trait 11 (Traits: Agility +5 (+6), Advantages: Improved Initiative)
Superhuman Resilience
. . Enhanced Ability: Enhanced Stamina 6 (+6 STA) and Enhanced Strength 10 (+10 STR)
. . Protection 4 (+4 Toughness, +8 ranks Impervious)

Equipment
Motorcycle

Offense
Initiative +10
Atomic Blast: Blast 11, +10 (DC 26)
Grab, +10 (DC Spec 22)
Throw, +2 (DC 27)
Unarmed, +10 (DC 27)

Complications
Delusional Psychotic: Joe believes that he is playing the part of the hero in his delusional recreation of his favorite Depression-era movie serial.
Macabre Appearance: The Atomic Skull’s skull shows visibly and burns endlessly.

Defense
Dodge 10, Parry 10, Fortitude 10, Toughness 12, Will 8

Power Points
Abilities 30 + Powers 77 + Advantages 12 + Skills 27 (54 ranks) + Defenses 19 = 165


The Atomic Skull featured in DCA is the second one: Joe Martin, a film student with a hankering for old 30s movie serials, suddenly turns into a radioactive nightmare so similar to "The Curse of the Atomic Skull" that his scrambled brain takes on that identity. On the plus side, the Atomic Skull in the movie is actually the hero, a secret agent coincidentally named Joseph Martin, but our man Joe think Superman and Lois are the other two sides of the old serial's love triangle, so he keeps trying to save "Zelda" from "Doctor Electron."

This sounds like a fun concept for a villain if you want to get into some really melodramatic nemesis patter. Skull is meant to be tough enough to at least distract Superman, but you could also get some mileage out of using interaction skills to direct Martin's delusional tendencies to something safer rather than trying to beat him up. And really, every hero should have one villain in their rogues gallery whose head is a flaming skull or a brain in a jar or one giant eye or a chair voiced by Tony Jay. Of course, you could also play the dark side of Martin; after all, he has severe mental challenges and spews radiation.

Mechanically he's a perfectly balanced PL11 and hits that with most of his O & D, with only F/W at a PL9. He's tank-jugglingly strong and tough, with an effective FGT of 10 and a few combat advantages. Overall he's another relatively simple Powerhouse build with a little flair, although surprising no Immunities, not even Radiation.

Image
source

(Now I'm not saying he's a Ghost Rider rip-off, but he is the first character in the book so far to have a motorcycle for no particular reason, and the only biker not based out of Gotham in this volume.)

RtP PL10? Easy enough. Trimming off 15p to get down to PL10 would just require a few choices on whether you want to favor power over precision, nimbleness over toughness. Skull skews big and brash, so dropping 2 ranks each off his FGT & AGI and 1 from his DEX would cover 10p and get him down to PL10 without sacrificing Damage or Toughness. The other 5p you could get from a lot of sources, but the most likely is Skills; he has 7p in 14 ranks of Film History & Movie Serials, and while I wouldn't recommend taking those all away, you could probably combine them into Expertise: Film History 8 (+9) and still maintain some style cred. Shave a couple more ranks from Athletics and Vehicles and you're good to go.

There is also a sidebar reference to the other, older Atomic Skull who is in no way related to Martin or the old movie serial. From what little research I did, Albert Michaels was a scientist with a terminal brain condition that he attempted to cure with the resource backing of a criminal organization in exchange for essentially henching for them. He apparently turned on the organization, took it over and went full-on supervillain with skull-themed vehicles and a gene-altered cat-girlfriend, which sounds pretty legit on paper but never caught on like Martin, I guess.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by JDRook »

That Sullivan Guy wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:36 pmI was given Atom Smasher's PL as a 10 when the character was assigned to me. When I wrote him up (the write-up that made it into print), I wasn't happy with him, because the way Growth worked RAW, to keep him at a base I thought appropriate, I couldn't give him the full ranks of the power I felt he needed. I added as a note to the developer that only giving him 5 to 7 ranks of the actual full Growth power (and adjusting his attack bonus up to the +7/+8 I felt would be more accurate as that would then be kosher with his final adjusted damage bonus) but then adding several more ranks of either a feature limited to the size change only aspect of Growth, or a Limited to size change only version of the Growth power would, IMO, be more accurate.

Crickets. No response.

I get my copy of the pdf and start looking through and I see the original stats as I wrote them for Al. I think to myself, "Ah, well. They disagreed. Such is life."
So, if I may be so bold, something more like this?

Atom Smasher (TSG edit) - PL 10

Strength 12/6, Stamina 12/6, Agility 2, Dexterity 2, Fighting 8, Intellect 1, Awareness 1, Presence 2

Advantages
All-out Attack, Daze (Intimidation), Fast Grab, Improved Grab, Interpose, Languages 1, Power Attack, Startle

Skills
Athletics 5 (+17/11), Deception 2 (+4), Expertise: Vehicle Repair 10 (+11), Insight 4 (+5), Intimidation 6 (+11/+8), Perception 5 (+6), Persuasion 4 (+6), Ranged Combat: Throw 5 (+7), Technology 4 (+5), Vehicles 7 (+9)

Powers
Bigger & Tougher
. . Atomic Expansion: Growth 6 (Linked; +6 STR, +6 STA, +3 Intimidate, -6 Stealth, -3 active defenses, +1 size rank, +6 mass ranks)
. . Tougher: Impervious Toughness 6
Growth Overdrive: Growth 6 (+3 Intimidate, -6 Stealth, -3 active defenses, +1 size rank; Limited to Increasing Size Only) Linked to STR 6 Limited to Lifting
Tough: Impervious Toughness 6

Offense
Initiative +2
Grab, +8 (DC Spec 22)
Throw, +7 (DC 27)
Unarmed, +8 (DC 27)

Complications
Checkered Past: Atom Smasher has skirted a number of gray areas during his relatively short career.
Responsibility: Albert tries to honor his godfather’s memory and reputation.

Languages
Kahndaqi, Native English

Defense
Dodge 7, Parry 8, Fortitude 12, Toughness 12, Will 6

Power Points
Abilities 56 + Powers 33 + Advantages 8 + Skills 26 (52 ranks) + Defenses 16 = 139

This bumps up Rothstein's natural STR and STA to 6 and changing his Growth to 6 full ranks and 6 Limited ranks. It can be GM/player decision whether STR & STA top out at 12 once grown to 6 ranks (roughly 20') and the rest is mainly additional reach and Intimidation, or if the two Growths are Linked and essentially alternate with bonuses coming every 2nd rank (I favour the former for simplicity). It should be noted the top size of Growth 12 (Size rank 1/60') also allows for Area Attacks of Size -2 rank (6'/human size) against Size -2 rank targets or smaller at PL rank, so Rothstein could slap or stomp a human size target with a Damage 10 Area Attack at full size. UPDATE 2022-02-22: Added Power-lifting Linked to the limited Growth so AS can now lift over 6,000 tons at full size, although he still tops out at 12 Damage (plus Power Attack) or 10 Damage Area Attacks.
Last edited by JDRook on Wed Feb 23, 2022 2:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Ares
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Atomic Skull! Atrocitus! Aztek! Azrael

Post by Ares »

An otherwise normal human body with a skull sheathed in energy is just an awesome visual. There's a reason Ghost Rider persists as a character despite having some VERY mediocre runs. The idea of him being confused and living in a mental fantasy based on old film serials is definitely unique, and makes him more of a tragic figure than a straightforward villain, though other versions of the character are just straightforward bad guys.

And honestly, when you look like an Atomic Ghost Rider, straight forward villainy might be more fun.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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greycrusader
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by greycrusader »

That Sullivan Guy wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:36 pm
I was given Atom Smasher's PL as a 10 when the character was assigned to me. When I wrote him up (the write-up that made it into print), I wasn't happy with him, because the way Growth worked RAW, to keep him at a base I thought appropriate, I couldn't give him the full ranks of the power I felt he needed. I added as a note to the developer that only giving him 5 to 7 ranks of the actual full Growth power (and adjusting his attack bonus up to the +7/+8 I felt would be more accurate as that would then be kosher with his final adjusted damage bonus) but then adding several more ranks of either a feature limited to the size change only aspect of Growth, or a Limited to size change only version of the Growth power would, IMO, be more accurate.

Crickets. No response.

I get my copy of the pdf and start looking through and I see the original stats as I wrote them for Al. I think to myself, "Ah, well. They disagreed. Such is life."

Then I find several other growing characters built with similar variations to what I had suggested. I was... annoyed.

Again, these things happened a lot.
There was a fair amount of incongruity in the builds; when I was building Negative Man there was some disagreement about whether STA - and Immunity: Fortitude Effects also conferred Life Support (unaging, no need to breathe, etc.), since one can think of counterexamples-robots need to recharge and their parts will eventually wear out, zombies would conceivably be affected by temperature, pressure, and even environmental toxins, etc. And yes, Growth was a headache to do for Elasti-Girl/Woman; Rita Farr wasn't peak human like Al Rothstein when she was normal sized, but she was WAY stronger than many other giant-characters (she picked up and threw huge robots and out wrestled giant monsters easily) AND could over 100' tall when really angered. So I tried staying in the rules but kludging some assorted powers with area effects, stretching, and the Extraordinary Effort advantage-and then when she appeared in the book, there was a sidebar basically saying "Just reduce her defenses or give Rita some other drawbacks when her Attack/Damage breaks PL". So...okay, then.

Of course, I''m still quite proud of having gotten to work on those books. And I think they serve as a wonderful tribute to the DC that was before the Flashpoint/New 52 out-of-left-field event.

All my best.
Jabroniville
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Jabroniville »

That Sullivan Guy wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:36 pm Once upon a time, there was a private listserv online for feedback/playtesting/informal editing for M&M. I joined this right before the end of 1st edition and in time enough to make some comments about the beta draft for 2nd ed. By the end of 2nd ed, Steve, and then Jon, winnowed things down because the responses weren't coming in with any frequency, weren't productive ("I like X/I don't like X"), and a number of people it was felt were just using membership to get access to pdf files without doing anything helpful in return. Jon created a new second listserv called "The Secret Think Tank" and a much smaller cross-section of people were invited there (mostly freelancers), of whom I was one. I tell you guys this to lead into explaining that, in addition to the things Greycrusader mentioned upthread, there was also a lot of back and forth with the members of this list and Jon+Steve in regards to the DC stuff. Since the 3rd ed rules set was brand new, some of it was rules bejabbers and clarifying, but some it was also regarding the two dozen plus writers' sometimes very disparate view on what the numbers and mechanics actually represented in terms of translating established characters to the system.
haha, sweet! A secret, hidden world of Think Tankers, out to stat guys correctly and give each other advice on what proper stats are. If only someone had stopped the "PL 12 Killer Croc", lol. Good on you for noting the issue with Bane's Strength- I find that kind of thing gets overlooked a lot. Especially if people weren't quite watching the charts to see what the numbers meant.
Crickets. No response.

I get my copy of the pdf and start looking through and I see the original stats as I wrote them for Al. I think to myself, "Ah, well. They disagreed. Such is life."

Then I find several other growing characters built with similar variations to what I had suggested. I was... annoyed.

Again, these things happened a lot.
WOW- that has to be annoying. But that idea was GENIUS, and utterly changed the way I statted up Growth-based characters.

Great notes- thanks for responding!
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