J-Mart OG: Closed for a new location!

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Jabroniville
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by Jabroniville »

Man, Warren's run is crazy and weird, even by the standards of X-Men characters. I think even PSYLOCKE has a more understated backstory at this point. It seemed to be a fairly simple progression... until that post-2002 "rotating creative team" period hit and then EVERYONE seemed to think he was free and clear to do absolutely whatever they wanted with him. Dude was a brain-addled Super-Hippy at one point while his teen counterpart had light wings and was dating X-23.
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Ares
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by Ares »

Yeah, Warren consistently comes off as a case of people "trying too hard" to make him relevant just because he's a guy whose one power is winged flight. This was actually more impressive back in the day when flight was a less common power, especially in mutants, but power creep set in and soon you had mutants whose powersets frequently included flight as an afterthought.

Still, I always go back to Kurt Busiek's Thunderbolts when it comes to keeping Warren relevant. Namely that, yeah, Warren can only fly, but because of all the training he's had since being a teen, he's the most skilled flier in Marvel, basically being to flying what Hawkeye is to archery. They showcased this well by having him literally fly rings around Moonstone and Songbird, who were unable to keep up with or catch him despite their myriad other abilities. The comic also had both women openly remarking how hot Warren was, which was something else folks tend to forget.

I mean, the guy is a rich billionaire playboy who started out fairly flirty and happy-go-lucky to contrast more dour guys like Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark, with Warren having the build and looks of a male underwear model. But at the same time he was someone who legitimately wanted to make a positive difference in the world and live up to Xaviers dream in his own way, so he'd use his fortune to help bankroll heroic endevors, sometimes to his frustration when they didn't work out.

Warren had plenty of character and plot relevance, opportunities for storytelling, and a chance to showcase how you could do less with more by having a guy with flight be VERY GOOD at flying. There wasn't any need to make him a blue-skinned, grim harbinger of death, they didn't need to give him magical healing blood, they didn't need to give him light wings or make him some kind of hippy, anything.

My take on Warren would be this: his powerset is based around winged flight. As a result, he not only has wings, but several other biological features that air in flight, including extraordinary eyesight and sharper senses in general. His bones are incredibly durable, yet extremely light, with the bones of his wings being incredibly flexible, able to fold in ways that he could hide them under street clothes. I'd actually borrow an idea from an old Marvel SAGA book that said that Warren's bones, especially his wings, were filled with miniature air sacks that would fill up when expanded to their full size, so that they actually negate most or all of his weight, essentially making him a balloon that steer itself. Rather than healing blood, Warren has a healing factor, though it's more like Wolverine's old healing factor than the current "I can't be killed" version Logan has. Instead, Warren can eventually recover from any injury that doesn't outright kill him, and he will regrow damaged or missing limbs and organs, including his wings. It'll just take him weeks to do so instead of being permanently maimed. The healing factor also plays into Warren having exceptional stamina, which he needs since his flying power is a purely physical thing, with his strength, durability and agility being exceptional due to the constant physical activity. Basically, all that wing flapping burns a lot of calories and does wonders for keeping him in shape. If you were to take away Warren's wings, he'd still be someone who could make an excellent street level hero.

After that, just focus on the fact that Warren is the best flier in Marvel, an exceptional athlete and trained fighter, and maybe give him a utility belt with things he can use. Make him a solid melee and ranged fighter due to his senses, hand-eye coordination, agility and training, then give him things he can throw, some collapsable melee weapons, maybe even a sci-fi gun with a lethal and stun setting. Kitty Pryde and Nightcrawler would frequently bring swords to fights, no reason Warren can't. In fact, I'm kind of in favor of all X-Men having those pouched utility belts like Cyclops use to wear, with the idea that the X-Men are trained to be self-sufficient due to the kind of crazy environments they often find themselves in. With people like Cyclops, Storm and Wolverine on the team, I'd expect them all to have belts that would include some survival gear, rations, lock picks, some electronic equipment, and for some of them to have at least a survival knife. People like Warren, Kurt and Kitty would just bring some extra weapons along due to their personal skill level.

So yeah, I suppose I've basically turned Warren into a winged, billionaire version of Nightwing, but I think that's more fun and in keeping with the character than most of the other things they've tried to do with the guy, simply because he's "just a guy with wings".
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Sidious
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by Sidious »

ok so I've been thinking about this for a bit.

Krakoa is a living biome that feeds on the life force of mutants. We saw this in Giant-Sized X-Men #1.
recently we've seen it drag and imprison Sabretooth, and, more recently, Kwannon cut her thumb on her sword. A drop of blood dripped down to the ground and Krakoa sprouted a flower.

Next We still do not know what happened in the six months between when we left the X-men (after the team had taken some heavy losses) and house/powers of X. In the opening of the series we see (supposedly) Xavier in the clone/pod chamber welcoming a new batch to the island. ("To me my X-men"). He does this again when the team sent to space is killed and then resurrected.

Let's go into a little detective work now. We've seen that and been told that everything about Krakoa is meant to put you at ease. It adapts its environment to relax any mutant there and lets them put their guard down. This is typical hunting strategy.

The resurrected X-Men have been shown to be at full health (missing limbs, etc are gone) this is fine as that goes with the whole "It's a cloned body" thing. (strictly speaking then, the brain damage Cyclops had the prevented his control of his optic blasts; Wolverines Skeleton, Archangels Wings (hell, his whole deal) should be undone)

Cyclops is back to being the trusted soldier/boy scout. Jean is back to Marvel Girl. Betsy's back to British. Just seems to me like they've been... edited... by someone.

So where am I going with this?

ok for a moment consider this is actually the current continuity, not another of Moira's past lives. What IF in his, we'll go with "supreme dickishness" here, Xavier put a psychic whammy on the survivors of the X-Men. What if they are currently in the bowels of Krakoa, feeding it, being kept in a stat of unconsciousness. The current batch is the psychically edited to the version Xavier liked the most (Marvel Girl, Soldier Cyclops, etc). he could do it easily. He has access to their "mental back ups".

this throws up a whole bunch of new questions.
Why is this happening?
Who knows about it?
What's going to happen when the fit hits the shan?

From what I can tell Apocalypse may know something is up. He's been shown to be more broody than normal and in Excalibur has something planned.

Sorry, early morning conspiracy theories tend to get a bit long winded.
RUSCHE
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by RUSCHE »

I am not convinced that is Xavier, and your thought of Krakoa has merit. This X-men run has definitely shaken things up in a good way. I am excited to see how it plays out. This run and Immortal Hulk are my favorite Marvel reads at the moment.
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by Thorpocalypse »

Sidious wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:10 pm ok so I've been thinking about this for a bit.

Krakoa is a living biome that feeds on the life force of mutants. We saw this in Giant-Sized X-Men #1.
recently we've seen it drag and imprison Sabretooth, and, more recently, Kwannon cut her thumb on her sword. A drop of blood dripped down to the ground and Krakoa sprouted a flower.

Next We still do not know what happened in the six months between when we left the X-men (after the team had taken some heavy losses) and house/powers of X. In the opening of the series we see (supposedly) Xavier in the clone/pod chamber welcoming a new batch to the island. ("To me my X-men"). He does this again when the team sent to space is killed and then resurrected.

Let's go into a little detective work now. We've seen that and been told that everything about Krakoa is meant to put you at ease. It adapts its environment to relax any mutant there and lets them put their guard down. This is typical hunting strategy.

The resurrected X-Men have been shown to be at full health (missing limbs, etc are gone) this is fine as that goes with the whole "It's a cloned body" thing. (strictly speaking then, the brain damage Cyclops had the prevented his control of his optic blasts; Wolverines Skeleton, Archangels Wings (hell, his whole deal) should be undone)

Cyclops is back to being the trusted soldier/boy scout. Jean is back to Marvel Girl. Betsy's back to British. Just seems to me like they've been... edited... by someone.

So where am I going with this?

ok for a moment consider this is actually the current continuity, not another of Moira's past lives. What IF in his, we'll go with "supreme dickishness" here, Xavier put a psychic whammy on the survivors of the X-Men. What if they are currently in the bowels of Krakoa, feeding it, being kept in a stat of unconsciousness. The current batch is the psychically edited to the version Xavier liked the most (Marvel Girl, Soldier Cyclops, etc). he could do it easily. He has access to their "mental back ups".

this throws up a whole bunch of new questions.
Why is this happening?
Who knows about it?
What's going to happen when the fit hits the shan?

From what I can tell Apocalypse may know something is up. He's been shown to be more broody than normal and in Excalibur has something planned.

Sorry, early morning conspiracy theories tend to get a bit long winded.
Someone making a long-winded post around here? Perish the thought....*looks at Jab and Ares* ;)

I can see your point and I could see Hickman using that Krakoa "feeding" loophole when his run ends. And Apocalypse is definitely up to something, they drop a pretty big clue at the end of Excalibur.
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Thorpocalypse
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by Thorpocalypse »

RUSCHE wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:57 pm I am not convinced that is Xavier, and your thought of Krakoa has merit. This X-men run has definitely shaken things up in a good way. I am excited to see how it plays out. This run and Immortal Hulk are my favorite Marvel reads at the moment.
I LOVE The Immortal Hulk. Best Hulk book in decades. One of Marvel's best overall in a hot minute, IMHO. It's rare I binge trades anymore but I blew through the first 3 in no time flat and I'm going to start the next one shortly.
Me fail English? That's unpossible. - Ralph Wiggum
RUSCHE
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by RUSCHE »

Thorpocalypse wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:01 am
RUSCHE wrote: Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:57 pm I am not convinced that is Xavier, and your thought of Krakoa has merit. This X-men run has definitely shaken things up in a good way. I am excited to see how it plays out. This run and Immortal Hulk are my favorite Marvel reads at the moment.
I LOVE The Immortal Hulk. Best Hulk book in decades. One of Marvel's best overall in a hot minute, IMHO. It's rare I binge trades anymore but I blew through the first 3 in no time flat and I'm going to start the next one shortly.
It is in my opinion the best Marvel book to come out in years. Lovethe art, the story, laying ground work for years of storytelling.
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Ares
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by Ares »

I'll admit, Hickman's run is interesting certainly, but it's not something I really care for. The idea of Moira being a mutant and that her superpower is essentially a weird kind of reincarnation is just weird . . . and dumb. It's a very Bendis/Millar moment of changing an established character to serve a story and basically turning them into a MacGuffin. See Civil War. It also creates this weird idea that no humans have ever helped mutants ever because now the most prominent non-human friend Charles had was now always a mutant.

I think the nicest thing I can say is that it's a natural progression of what Marvel has been doing with the X-Men over the last several years, namely that the X-Men basically become radical isolationists, mutant supremacists and essentially villains. Everything right now is basically just killing time until the reveal of what the deep evil secret of the place is.

I'll give it this: if you wanted to create a legitimate scenario where mutants are hated and feared and the X-Men are outlaw superheroes, this isn't a bad way to do it. Because now people have a legitimate reason to be afraid of mutants.
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RUSCHE
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by RUSCHE »

Ares wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:37 pm I'll admit, Hickman's run is interesting certainly, but it's not something I really care for. The idea of Moira being a mutant and that her superpower is essentially a weird kind of reincarnation is just weird . . . and dumb. It's a very Bendis/Millar moment of changing an established character to serve a story and basically turning them into a MacGuffin. See Civil War. It also creates this weird idea that no humans have ever helped mutants ever because now the most prominent non-human friend Charles had was now always a mutant.

I think the nicest thing I can say is that it's a natural progression of what Marvel has been doing with the X-Men over the last several years, namely that the X-Men basically become radical isolationists, mutant supremacists and essentially villains. Everything right now is basically just killing time until the reveal of what the deep evil secret of the place is.

I'll give it this: if you wanted to create a legitimate scenario where mutants are hated and feared and the X-Men are outlaw superheroes, this isn't a bad way to do it. Because now people have a legitimate reason to be afraid of mutants.
To be extremely afraid, they now can go anywhere in the world and you have to be invited to even enter their lands. Their own language in itself now caues a communication issue that may mot be easy to resolve. Like i said, i am not certain that is Xavier at all. One thing for sure Marvel has us talking about the X-Men again, for better or worse.
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Ares
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by Ares »

RUSCHE wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:14 pm
Ares wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:37 pm I'll admit, Hickman's run is interesting certainly, but it's not something I really care for. The idea of Moira being a mutant and that her superpower is essentially a weird kind of reincarnation is just weird . . . and dumb. It's a very Bendis/Millar moment of changing an established character to serve a story and basically turning them into a MacGuffin. See Civil War. It also creates this weird idea that no humans have ever helped mutants ever because now the most prominent non-human friend Charles had was now always a mutant.

I think the nicest thing I can say is that it's a natural progression of what Marvel has been doing with the X-Men over the last several years, namely that the X-Men basically become radical isolationists, mutant supremacists and essentially villains. Everything right now is basically just killing time until the reveal of what the deep evil secret of the place is.

I'll give it this: if you wanted to create a legitimate scenario where mutants are hated and feared and the X-Men are outlaw superheroes, this isn't a bad way to do it. Because now people have a legitimate reason to be afraid of mutants.
To be extremely afraid, they now can go anywhere in the world and you have to be invited to even enter their lands. Their own language in itself now caues a communication issue that may mot be easy to resolve. Like i said, i am not certain that is Xavier at all. One thing for sure Marvel has us talking about the X-Men again, for better or worse.
There was one draft a note Xavier was working on placed in the cover of one X-Book that basically outlined the X-Nation's current protocol with dealing with other nations. Basically, if you don't publicly acknowledge their sovereignty, you can still get under the table access to the medical supplies and life extending drugs through the Hellfire Club, in return for payment and just leaving the mutants alone. They also outline plans for intimidation and subversion of governments that don't play ball with them, and have already shown they don't have a problem sending squads to invade countries. Hell, Kitty is going around shooting people in the knees and phasing objects into people's legs, potentially crippling them for life.

Edit: I realize said guys were Russian soldiers keeping mutants from leaving in order to put their powers to use for their country, but that's still exceptionally brutal to guys who were likely just soldiers doing their job.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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RUSCHE
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by RUSCHE »

Ares wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:06 pm
RUSCHE wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:14 pm
Ares wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:37 pm I'll admit, Hickman's run is interesting certainly, but it's not something I really care for. The idea of Moira being a mutant and that her superpower is essentially a weird kind of reincarnation is just weird . . . and dumb. It's a very Bendis/Millar moment of changing an established character to serve a story and basically turning them into a MacGuffin. See Civil War. It also creates this weird idea that no humans have ever helped mutants ever because now the most prominent non-human friend Charles had was now always a mutant.

I think the nicest thing I can say is that it's a natural progression of what Marvel has been doing with the X-Men over the last several years, namely that the X-Men basically become radical isolationists, mutant supremacists and essentially villains. Everything right now is basically just killing time until the reveal of what the deep evil secret of the place is.

I'll give it this: if you wanted to create a legitimate scenario where mutants are hated and feared and the X-Men are outlaw superheroes, this isn't a bad way to do it. Because now people have a legitimate reason to be afraid of mutants.
To be extremely afraid, they now can go anywhere in the world and you have to be invited to even enter their lands. Their own language in itself now caues a communication issue that may mot be easy to resolve. Like i said, i am not certain that is Xavier at all. One thing for sure Marvel has us talking about the X-Men again, for better or worse.
There was one draft a note Xavier was working on placed in the cover of one X-Book that basically outlined the X-Nation's current protocol with dealing with other nations. Basically, if you don't publicly acknowledge their sovereignty, you can still get under the table access to the medical supplies and life extending drugs through the Hellfire Club, in return for payment and just leaving the mutants alone. They also outline plans for intimidation and subversion of governments that don't play ball with them, and have already shown they don't have a problem sending squads to invade countries. Hell, Kitty is going around shooting people in the knees and phasing objects into people's legs, potentially crippling them for life.
And with all of that, they punish Sabertooth, don't get me wrong, he deserves to be but with all of the other X-Men doing illegal acts for their own benefit it building a Nation it makes you wonder if this is not either Xavier or the Krakoa doing. It show so many out of character moments. I am enjoying it it, bit it still feels like a switch and bait to me.
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Ares
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by Ares »

The New Mutants book showcased them trying to put a Krakoa plant on a space ship, and the ship itself reacting badly to it. I wouldn't be surprised if the drugs they're handing out to the world don't have a dual purpose as well.

Like I said, it's just a waiting game to see what the dark evil of the island really is, and whether or not its going to be done in a way that perhaps fixes and absolves the X-Men of a lot of their recent dickery. Mind control spores, shapeshifer infiltrator, Krakoa having all of them in pods at the island's center while these clones/plant simularcrum are out doing stuff, anything is possible.

Except for Captain Britain keeping his name, that doesn't appear to be possible. Which is a shame, because this could have been a chance to give Brian some positive exposure. He's a human who has powers but is also good friends with the mutant community. He could have given the outsiders perspective on the island, let him voice dissenting opinions, maybe face some bigotry for being a human on an island full of mutants, etc.

Or they can sideline him so his sister can take his identity. That works too, I guess.
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Sidious
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by Sidious »

RUSCHE wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:13 pm And with all of that, they punish Sabertooth, don't get me wrong, he deserves to be but with all of the other X-Men doing illegal acts for their own benefit it building a Nation it makes you wonder if this is not either Xavier or the Krakoa doing. It show so many out of character moments. I am enjoying it it, bit it still feels like a switch and bait to me.
I think it has more to do with them not being able to trust Sabretooth to not kill people in Krakoa. He's pretty much as loose of a cannon as you can get with a history of rape and murder that's larger than some phone books.

I think it's more along the lines of keeping their own people safe. You never know when this guy will go off.

With all that said. I'm curious about where they are holding him and if the X-Men's original bodies are being kept in the same place.
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by RUSCHE »

Sidious wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2019 1:41 pm
RUSCHE wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:13 pm And with all of that, they punish Sabertooth, don't get me wrong, he deserves to be but with all of the other X-Men doing illegal acts for their own benefit it building a Nation it makes you wonder if this is not either Xavier or the Krakoa doing. It show so many out of character moments. I am enjoying it it, bit it still feels like a switch and bait to me.
I think it has more to do with them not being able to trust Sabretooth to not kill people in Krakoa. He's pretty much as loose of a cannon as you can get with a history of rape and murder that's larger than some phone books.

I think it's more along the lines of keeping their own people safe. You never know when this guy will go off.

With all that said. I'm curious about where they are holding him and if the X-Men's original bodies are being kept in the same place.
I have a notion that the Original X-Men are being kept as well. Like i said , this run has the Mutant agenda in the forefront of the Marvel Universe again, for better or worse.
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Sidious
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Re: J-Mart: Kate Pryde, Krakoa, Apocalypse, Mei, Mercy, Archangel

Post by Sidious »

I still don't think it's current continuity.(an easy way to return to status quo if this flops)

I think "Charles" put the psychic whammy on the surviving X-Men and they are all stored under Krakoa. (another easy way to return to statis quo when this is over).

This would explain why Cyclops is back in Boy Scout/Good Soldier mode, after being the new Magneto for a while.
This would explain Marvel Girl Jean.
"Happy" Wolverine back in the brown suit. (at least this part, I like)
also any number of out of character/physical anomalies that may have cropped up. (Wasn't Doug killed fairly recently, before all this?)

And where is Archangel in all this? A clone wouldn't have the techno-organic wings. Resetting him mentally back to when he had all feather wings would throw up a bunch of red flags. So where is he?
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