Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Shining Force Done! The Black Widow! Yelena Belova!)

Post by Ares »

Digging the Winter Guard builds. It always made sense to me that every major nation would have it's own Avengers equivalent, and it helps avoid the issue of 90% of the worlds heroes being American.

And Jabs right. As much of a mess the Crossing could be, it was also a lot of fun while also having a good message about national cooperation. The Crimson Dynamo of that story was particularly entertaining, and I wish that version had stuck around.

Capt. America: *explains nonsensical to everyone*
Perun: That sounds ridiculous!
Crimson Dynamo: Of course it does! *immediately flies into battle to start said plan* Which naturally means it will work perfectly!
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Jack of Spades »

Glad to see you back doing what brought me to your thread in the first place, Jab. And yeah, Starlight seems like a character whose time has come, only it's come at a time when nobody can look at the huge store of characters Marvel has built up over the decades – nobody but TV and movie producers, that is. Maybe we'll see a Starlight show streaming one day soon.

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath either.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by M4C8 »

I've always liked some of the Marvel teams based outside of the US such as MI:13, Alpha Flight and the Winter Guard, they often have a number of decent characters that have the potential to be great. Given how often Marvel changes the status quo of the big name teams it's not surprising that the continuity of the lesser known ones is rarely maintained for any significant length of time.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Woodclaw »

For me, The Crossing Line is the quintessential "so bad it's good" Avengers' story. The premise of the plot is absolutely spot-on and one of the few times the Avengers are actually used to solve a true international crisis, as per their charter, rather than fighting the super-villain of the day. The subsequent inclusion of the Protectorate, the Atlanteans and Alpha Flight (although it kind of invoke my least favorite trope about Alpha Flight... ask away) were a really good way to enhance that feeling that this was actually a "Tom Clancy novel with superheroes"... unfortunately, everything went to crap in the final chapter. Everything from the moment the nuclear warheads went off was a ass-pull of gigantic proportions, from Shaman reversing his puch to Sersi more or less saving everyone on her own (which isn't actually outside of the powers of an Eternal, but still...).
The story works and have a lot of really nice moments (I really enjoyed Stingray grumbling about being drafted just because the Avengers had an underwater problem and Namor wasn't around), but it really needs you to know the continuity and all the characters involved to enjoy it.
M4C8 wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 9:59 pm I've always liked some of the Marvel teams based outside of the US such as MI:13, Alpha Flight and the Winter Guard, they often have a number of decent characters that have the potential to be great. Given how often Marvel changes the status quo of the big name teams it's not surprising that the continuity of the lesser known ones is rarely maintained for any significant length of time.
There is also the really big problem that "Marvel Earth" is made up of very few cities with uncharted space in between. With the only possible exception of the United Kingdom and Canada, every nation outside of the U.S.A. is more or less a single city (often the capital) and the number of locations needed for the story. This is probably a byproduct of authors not being familiar enough with these countries.
Still, this makes create any superteam of superhero outside of the U.S. a pretty big challenge.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Ares »

Woodclaw wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:24 pm F
The subsequent inclusion of the Protectorate, the Atlanteans and Alpha Flight (although it kind of invoke my least favorite trope about Alpha Flight... ask away)
Asking away: what trope is that?
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Ken »

I wonder if people know that the backwards R in the Cyrillic alphabet is more of a vowel sound and not an R.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Grenzer »

Ah, the Russians. This is another group of builds that interests me because of my own knowledge of Russian culture and history. On the one hand, Marvel makes more of an effort to include Russian characters into its universe than any other major publisher. On the other hand... most of these characters are the clumsiest and laziest stereotypes imaginable, a clear product of the Cold War period when the majority of them were created. I guess it is nice that Black Widow is considered an almost A-list superheroine and is for the most part depicted as competent and truly good at heart, but she also plays into that Slavic sexpot trope good and hard. And she acts like a Russian written by Americans with little knowledge of Russian culture, but that much was unavoidable. And the less said about the Ultimate version, the better.

And I think they have hinted Natasha is related to 'those' Romanovs, the dynasty that ruled the country for three centuries*, which must have been a already tired idea back in the 1960's and has even less appeal in a modern context. It would also mean she is mostly German by blood, not Russian (that is a very long story).

These posts also reminded me of something else: the almost utter paucity of Russian superheroes as created by Russians. Given the culture of the Soviet Union saw comic books as bourgeois, subversive, and degenerate and did not provide much in the way of state funding towards aspiring creators, this is not really surprising but very sad. It is only in the past few years that the homegrown Russian comic book industry has gained any sort of traction, and the heroes being created getting more exposed in Russian pop culture. Some attempts at creating homegrown Russian superheros have been downright disastrous, and hilarious.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardians_(2017_film)

For the most part, the MCU is very popular over in Russia, and Marvel superheroes like Captain America and Iron Man are probably some of the most popular and recognizable imported characters in the country. This is not as strange as you might think however, because Sherlock Holmes has been widely popular in Russia since the turn of the 20th century and had many Russian-language films and TV shows made about him. Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are also very popular, and have influenced the nerd culture... Ever wanted to read a novel where elves and wizards gets sent through time and space to the Eastern Front and helps the Soviets kill Nazis? Start learning Russian.

*For the record, Romanov is a very common family name in Russia, most of the people you would meet with it have no relation to the former Tsars.
Last edited by Grenzer on Sun May 17, 2020 6:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Grenzer wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 3:20 am Ah, the Russians. This is another group of builds that interests me because of my own knowledge of Russian culture and history. On the one hand, Marvel makes more of an effort to include Russian characters into its universe than any other major publisher. On the other hand... most of these characters are the clumsiest and lazy stereotypes imaginable, a clear product of the Cold War period when the majority of them were created. I guess it is nice that Black Widow is considered an almost A-list superheroine and is for the most part depicted as competent and truly good at heart, but she also plays into that Slavic sexpot trope good and hard. And she acts like a Russian written by Americans with little knowledge of Russian culture, but that much was unavoidable. And the less said about the Ultimate version, the better.
Glad you're into the idea- I do find the Russians to be a bit one-note Super-Commie. It's particularly noticeable in the early '90s comics I have, where nearly every Russian superhuman is either a Soviet defector or someone who wants to bring back Communism or the Cold War. As BSDigitalQ (another poster here) communicated to me via Facebook, comics kind of misunderstands that most Russian folks would prefer a return to the glory days of Russia being IMPORTANT, not the return of Communism. More of an "at least the trains ran on time" kind of thing.
And I think they have hinted Natasha is related to 'those' Romanovs, the dynasty that ruled the country for three centuries*, which must have been a already tired idea back in the 1960's and has even less appeal in a modern context. It would also mean she is mostly German by blood, not Russian (that is a very long story).
That reminds me of the talk I had with Chris Claremont regarding the X-Men's relationships- he figured that Kitty & Colossus would move on from each other eventually, and he always liked the idea of Colossus with the Widow- "A Romanov for a Rasputin". If it turns out BOTH were related to those who share their names (Colossus definitely is), that would be all the sweeter.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Jack of Spades wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:25 pm Glad to see you back doing what brought me to your thread in the first place, Jab. And yeah, Starlight seems like a character whose time has come, only it's come at a time when nobody can look at the huge store of characters Marvel has built up over the decades – nobody but TV and movie producers, that is. Maybe we'll see a Starlight show streaming one day soon.

Yeah, I'm not holding my breath either.
Yeah, I'm always concerned with doing a long "Non-Superhero" stretch like with Shining Force- I'd always wanted to detail that one, and it was too research-intensive to just spam them out even faster, so I figured it was worth the time. Probably the most time I'd spend on a single game series anymore.

But yeah, most people are here for superheroes, so that's what I always go back to :). After the Winter Guard here, I'll be re-posting my Avengers set with new commentary, so it's all superheroes for a month or so.

At some point I'll probably do an Image Comics set- I mentioned on the Discord that I'll have categories like "Marvel Character Most Ripped-Off" to make up for my lack of real information about many characters :).
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Goldar wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 8:04 pm Jab, as usual, your profiles are perfect! From the pics selected, to the history and the stats! I am so enjoying this run of Marvel!

Tanya was a favorite of mine from when she first appeared! Where was that, you ask? Why, in the Defenders, of course! (And you wonder why I LOVE the Defenders!) And during that famous "Valkyrie gets arrested and goes to prison for wrecking a posh-penthouse restaurant fighting a monster with a sword" storyline, that also introduced us to Val's cellmates, Shirley and FELICIA! :lol:

While I had known of the RG who was the "late" husband of BW (Natasha), I was much more fond of the female usage and how well Tanya looked in the costume! Of course, it was a novel idea then, not like now, where it has become commonplace upon lackluster stories of those with little imagination.

Tanya had a fun and intelligent personality, while slightly naïve to American ways. She played well off of Luke Cage and they teamed up a few times during stories. They had a mutual respect for each other and each one's abilities.

Tanya's stats are perfect. And she was a strong 2 STR. She carried a gunshot man in her open arms up 3 stories of stairs and he weighed 1.5 times her weight. She belted some men unconscious and forced one to drop his knife by sheer grip strength. Tanya and Nighthawk working together beat/defeated Chondu in his monstrous form. I was sad to see RG leave.

While at the time I did not like the story with the Presence, I later came to appreciate Tanya's increased abilities. She is one of those few ultra-powerful energy wielding females and really should have become more prominent than she did. I also like her name Starlight and her costume variation in her powered form.
Glad you like her- this is pretty well my old build with some newer commentary, but it's nice to finally move all these characters over to Echoes :).
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Ares »

Grenzer wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 3:20 am Ah, the Russians. This is another group of builds that interests me because of my own knowledge of Russian culture and history.
I'm actually very curious about what non-US nations tend to think of superheroes, or what kind of superheroes they'd create on their own. Sometimes you get examples of it from the source, where Japan gives us Kamen Rider/Super Sentai/Magic Girl type superheroes, along with anime heroes with superheroic qualities and trappings, with My Hero Academia being the most literal case. Conversely, in a lot of European countries you're more likely to find comics about Donald Duck than traditional superheroes. And there's places like the Middle East where they don't really have time to waste on superheroes.

So knowing what actual Russians would think of superheroes and superheroic fiction would actually be useful when it comes to informing my own setting. Generally speaking I try to have the existing types of heroes be the norm, often just with more superhero trappings. So Japan's superhero community would look like a mix of My Hero Academia, Kamen Rider, Power Rangers, Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball, while Mexican superheroes would have more than a few Lucha Libre inspired heroes. I find it's equally important to include some stereotypes while subverting others.

Then again, even as I say that, one of my Russian heroes is basically Ursa Major meets Captain Atom: a metal werebear with crimson skin and radiation powers.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Ares wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:36 am
Woodclaw wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:24 pm F
The subsequent inclusion of the Protectorate, the Atlanteans and Alpha Flight (although it kind of invoke my least favorite trope about Alpha Flight... ask away)
Asking away: what trope is that?
I called it a trope, but I'm not 100% sure it's the right word.
It's the fact that Alpha Flight is one of those teams that really seem to lack an identity. Depending on the writer, Alpha Flight swings between being the Canadian version of the Avengers (i.e. goverment sponsored team called in for national emergencies) or the Canadian version of the X-Men (shut-in team, mostly deailing in interal struggles).
I admit I'm not too familiar with the team, mostly due to the insane publication history it had over here, but the aformentioned problem always bugged me a lot.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by catsi563 »

the aberrant series really in a way shows how it might be in a semi real world. the US simultaneously embraces them as the new sports stars while having gov types try to keep them in check or in the cases of more conservative states treating them like godless abominations and such

japan embraces them whole heartedly as supers and creates a whole culture around them, Canada is slightly more open to them then the US but has more control over them

same with Europe where theyre lauded daily but solid rules are in place,

middle east is a burning quilt of craziness when it comes to them with more conservative elements calling for jihad on them as abominations before god while others calling them allahs chosen

isreal treats them like citizens but militarizes them as fast as possible to keep them as a secret weapon much like their nuclear program

China treats them like a combination of pariahs slaves and goverent soldiers you do what china tells you or you GET MADE to do what china tells you or you end up dead and all of it done in secret
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Davies »

Woodclaw wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 4:03 pm It's the fact that Alpha Flight is one of those teams that really seem to lack an identity. Depending on the writer, Alpha Flight swings between being the Canadian version of the Avengers (i.e. goverment sponsored team called in for national emergencies) or the Canadian version of the X-Men (shut-in team, mostly deailing in interal struggles).
I can't disagree with any of this. It probably did not help that almost nobody who's ever written Alpha Flight has ever been all that familiar with Canada as it actually exists. The era when they were based in Edmonton's Sir Winston Churchill Square -- which does really exist -- probably came closest to something like verisimilitude.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Black Widow! Yelena Belova! Red Guardians!)

Post by Ares »

Woodclaw wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 4:03 pm
Ares wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 1:36 am
Woodclaw wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:24 pm F
The subsequent inclusion of the Protectorate, the Atlanteans and Alpha Flight (although it kind of invoke my least favorite trope about Alpha Flight... ask away)
Asking away: what trope is that?
I called it a trope, but I'm not 100% sure it's the right word.
It's the fact that Alpha Flight is one of those teams that really seem to lack an identity. Depending on the writer, Alpha Flight swings between being the Canadian version of the Avengers (i.e. goverment sponsored team called in for national emergencies) or the Canadian version of the X-Men (shut-in team, mostly deailing in interal struggles).
I admit I'm not too familiar with the team, mostly due to the insane publication history it had over here, but the aformentioned problem always bugged me a lot.
Then there was that one time the team was government funded, but the writer had a big X-Files/M.I.B. love that turned the book into this kind of political thriller about how untrustworthy the organization they worked for was.

But yeah, I definitely see your point there. A sad thing was that John Byrne (who I believe is Canadian himself) created the team but had no interest in them, complaining that they were all stereotypes . . . when he was the one that created them, and their being blank slates gave him all the freedom he needed to make them interesting. Instead of taking the chance to give a Canadian's perspective on a Canadian superteam and what that might mean, he basically doomed them to never have a clear purpose, to the point that their team name got co-opted by Carol Danvers in her new space force.
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