Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Davies
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stalin! Avengers Builds! Wonder Man!)

Post by Davies »

<looks at card> And he apparently can breathe in space, too.

Oh, like you weren't all thinking it.
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Shock
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stalin! Avengers Builds! Wonder Man!)

Post by Shock »

Now that is an ugly costume. Just awful
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KorokoMystia
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stalin! Avengers Builds! Wonder Man!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

Grim Reaper could be somebody with some work. He's got a great codename, his costume really needs work though. Sometimes he could look cool, but even his EMH version turned out to be a jobber despite his cool redesign.
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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stalin! Avengers Builds! Wonder Man!)

Post by Ares »

I'd vote Image as well. Then Iron Man.

And yeah, the Avengers: EMH version of the Grim Reaper is probably the best the character's ever been, but despite a cool intro he never really amounted to much. Still better than the comics versions by a ways.
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Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stalin! Avengers Builds! Wonder Man!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Ares wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 3:28 pm I actually like Wonder Man as a character and concept, since he was in some senses Marvel's original Sentry, but better. See, the whole deal with Simon was that he was incredibly powerful. He's actually the one who keeps saying that he's "a little under Thor" when it comes to strength, you almost never see anyone else refer to him in that manner. While that might be bragging to some, with Simon it actually feels somewhat self-disparaging, like he's reminding everyone that he's good, but Thor's better. And that's sort of the crux of the issue.

Simon is Marvel's original "Man of Steel, Feet of Clay" character. He's someone who has made very human mistakes, feels immense guilt about them and thus feels unworthy of all the good things in his life. He's constantly surrounded by true paragons of virtue and feels unworthy to be in their presence. When confronting Count Nefaria, he admits that even if he's not as powerful as the Count, he should have enough power to take the Count down if he was half as good as the other Avengers. And as someone who died, he was terrified of dying again, which took him a while to overcome and, again, made perfect sense. His whole decision to get into acting was his own way of trying to gain some acceptance doing what he felt was the only thing he was good at: pretending to be a hero.
See, this is where I realize I'm missing a TON of Simon-related books, lol. Most of the things I've read was the '70s Korvac Saga where his only trait is fearing death. Then it's the Vision & Scarlet Witch series where he's just kinda "there". Then Operation Galactic Storm in the '90s which uses him as a weird kind of "Filler" because his book technically has to be part of the Mega-Arc but he doesn't really have anything interesting to do, so he's just kind of around.

I mean, the comics I own featuring him probably number into the hundred, but I seem to be missing all the ones where he's IMPORTANT. I mean, I have Busiek's Avengers and Remender's Uncanny. But I felt he didn't show himself as being that great a character in either. So I'm missing all of this stuff that would give this better impression of the guy- the "Feet of Clay" you're talking about.
When Simon gets characterization outside of "being guilt ridden/feeling unworthy", he's been all over the place. Some people portray him as a regular joe, which isn't bad but is kind of bland. Some people have him overcompensate by acting cocky, which doesn't fit. Some people made him 'average Marvel Movie Hero' where he snarks a lot, frequently about himself. People also tend to play him up as a meat head when he's actually very intelligent, was in fact a scientist, engineer and business owner, but he suffered because his main competition was TONY STARK, so naturally he went under.
Yeah, I fear this is where I'm at with him. Just too many appearances where he's a "Filler" character. Even though he got his own book during the 1990s, I feel like that wasn't a great era for him outside of that book. Too many "Less Than Thor" jobbings.
His relationship with Beast would basically be one of Beast finally enjoying to not be the "responsible big brother" for a change. With the X-Men, Hank is depended on to be the funny but level headed, wise, responsible science guy. Around the Avengers, he's able to relax as the members are generally more responsible (having Captain America on the team will do that), he isn't relied on as much for everything, and he can enjoy himself. In effect, Simon and Hank are two people who regret much of their lives and are trying to move forward. Together they enjoy themselves and just be "normal guys", but I'd also show they enjoy talking shop science wise, and other things.
And here's another blank zone- I don't think I've ever read a "Beast/Wonder Man Pals" story. I found it always talked about in retrospectives, but... by the 1990s, the X-Men were "King Shit" at Marvel and there was NO WAY you were getting Hank back by that point.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stalin! Avengers Builds! Wonder Man!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Goldar wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 2:22 pm Great Wonder Man profile, and pics too of course!!

OK, yeah, I was one of those BIG WM followers you mention---but it was back in the day after Simon was originally returned to life. I admit it! :o

But back then, he was a great character for the first 25-40 issues or so! Powerful, a man of mystery, so many powers, and with a decent costume!

After that, the more they used him in Avengers and especially WCA/AWC, he became the jobber that would continue on for decades, up until even now...? :P

As far as being beaten by Mantis, well, even Thor was knocked cold by Mantis. Mantis shook off Wanda, Black Panther, Iron Man and Cap twice in that issue. BP called them the "Old-fashioned Avengers".

WM's original green/red costume makes him look so powerful and it is my favorite one. Simon was said to have Cl 95 STR when Thor and Herc could lift 100 tons, so just slightly under them. He beat Namor (1-shotted him), Vision, and with Vision defeated a very powerful Tyrak. Later on, about 2000, Marvel increased Simon's STR to CL 100, allowing him to lift over 100 tons. In the 2010s, Cap mentions that Simon is as powerful as Sentry.

As far as powers, these were from the beginning: Simon is supposed to be able to see in low-light or in darkness and can run up to 100 mph, the speed of an express train. He did this in his own book. He also possesses fast reaction time.
Interesting- Low-Light Vision isn't depicted as one of his powers anywhere I've seen. It makes sense given that one of his big visual "things" is that his eyes glow bright red, though.

I never heard that Simon was as powerful as the Sentry- Sentry is usually shown as so far beyond normal Marvel heroes that victory is impossible. I always figured that "just below Thor" would be fine if writers could get it in their heads to not use that as an excuse for Thor to beat the guy that beat up Simon... but that's just kind of how things go in comics. It's the role Giant-Man always used to have.
greycrusader wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 4:10 pm Wonder Man suffers from the same issue that plagues the Martian Manhunter over in JLA; he's a supposedly a top-tier powerhouse who should be capable of taking on top-tier competition, but Simon is also a minor league character who only briefly had his own book, coming a couple decades after his debut. So on a team of more popular heroes with their OWN series, its really easy for writers to show how tough/dangerous a villain is by having Simon go down hard. Then it sets up Thor, Iron Man, or (more recently) Captain Marvel to come in and look bad-ass by stepping in and taking out the foe. Heck, Grant Morrison did this several times to J'onn in his run on Justice League, and even sometimes to GL (Kyle). They get defeated after a hard but brief battle, then Superman or WW get to have a Moment of Awesome.

Your take on Simon is really spot-on in terms of his characterization, in terms of what initially worked and how/when it got derailed. Maybe an absence is needed for awhile, so more recent stories with him can be forgotten, and then Wonder Man can be reintroduced in a way that gives him a credible role, and doesn't see him overshadowed on the Avengers.

All my best.
Were you talking to me or Ares with that bolded part, there?

In any case, yeah- using a guy in that "Jobber" role just dooms him to feel unimportant. At least the Busiek/Perez Avengers used the character to end a few good fights.
RainOnTheSun
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stalin! Avengers Builds! Wonder Man!)

Post by RainOnTheSun »

It's funny, in Wonder Man's absence the role of "strong guy who jobs to make the villain look serious" has gone to... Thor.

(And if we're going to talk about his costumes, Simon's red jacket and shades is the best one by a mile)
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Davies
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stalin! Avengers Builds! Wonder Man!)

Post by Davies »

Jabroniville wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 5:23 am
And here's another blank zone- I don't think I've ever read a "Beast/Wonder Man Pals" story. I found it always talked about in retrospectives, but... by the 1990s, the X-Men were "King Shit" at Marvel and there was NO WAY you were getting Hank back by that point.
There's a great one in the Busiek/Perez run just before the "Ultron destroys Sokovia" storyline.
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Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Avengers Builds! Wonder Man! Grim Reaper!)

Post by Jabroniville »

AVENGERS POSTING OVERVIEW:
So to define this set a little more, my intention was to get almost everyone from Ronin Army's thread finally posted over to Echoes. My "Re-post every five years" idea is MOSTLY intact, though some are further back (a few still ATT-only!)- the Avengers really kinda needed to be 'ported over eventually.

The major issue with posting them in the past was that it was very "Important Character"-heavy, meaning it would essentially result in my posting the ENTIRE roster of major Marvel heroes (outside of the X-books), which I felt was too "spammy" considering it only took a month or two to post the whole team. Like, my threads go on for a while- it's no fun posting everyone all at once and having huge gaps between them.

Sparingly-Posted Guys:
Another issue is I'm always afraid of stifling comments if I post too quickly (too many "Well I can't comment on The Falcon since 3 days have gone by" comments), yet I don't wanna drive people away by taking too long on something that's uninteresting, or too many characters who are minor. So it's this constant balance. I've asked REPEATEDLY if people ever find me posting too much, and I've never really heard back. But it's always been a concern of mine.

BUT... worries over that means I'm probably only gonna post one build a day in cases of major guys like Wonder Man. I was kinda proven right when though he didn't score many comments on the first day... I woke up to a whole page's worth just about! And I feel if I'd posted a bunch of follow-up guys, I'd have stifled some of that! But who knows? I don't do this ENTIRELY for comments, needy as I can seem over those, but I do like the discourse and it makes our little community seem more alive when people are actually saying stuff, ya know?

Past Build-Sets:
My desire to not post ALL the Avengers all at once has manifested itself repeatedly at Echoes. A couple of years ago, I posted Thor and all the "Mythology"-themed characters at Marvel- Hercules, Gilgamesh, Sersi, etc. That was a lot of fun, and possibly one of the more interesting sets I've done- a lot of people really dug that, and told me so. That couldn't have happened if they'd have all been a part of this set. A month or so ago, I posted Hank Pym-themed builds and various linked characters- this also brought out The Vision, Scarlet Witch & Quicksilver. Before the Black Panther movie came out, I posted T'Challa's cast and enemies. Anyone who was on the New Warriors has already been posted, because most of those guys "lived" more in that book. Luke Cage & Iron Fist were linked enough to have their own set ages ago.

Guys' Casts:
For similar reasons to wanting to space things out, as well as keeping things on-theme... I really wanted to post guys AND their villains within days of each other, rather than post ALL Avengers and only then go through their villains. So this time, we get Wonder Man, then his brother the Grim Reaper... and then Splice, who's a Wonder Man character. Swordsman & Mantis are their own thing and have some associated characters. The Black Knight inspires that set of '90s villains who opposed him. People like Carol Danvers, Quasar, and a couple others all had their own bad guys, too.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Avengers Builds! Wonder Man! Grim Reaper!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Hey, look! Someone did a YouTube video detailing just why Sega killed Eternal Champions!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNu7bOx75-A
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Stalin! Avengers Builds! Wonder Man!)

Post by drkrash »

Ares wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 4:39 am I'd vote Image as well. Then Iron Man.

And yeah, the Avengers: EMH version of the Grim Reaper is probably the best the character's ever been, but despite a cool intro he never really amounted to much. Still better than the comics versions by a ways.
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Goldar
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Avengers Builds! Wonder Man! Grim Reaper!)

Post by Goldar »

Jab, I love all your builds, so port-or-post all of them if you wish! Not too many for me!

I never find the posting is too much to comment on--I will squeeze into the conversation somewhere! Especially on fav characters. :)

The Avengers and their enemies are always great to see, and there are so many. Would any of them require updating for their powers, increases, etc?
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Avengers Builds! Wonder Man! Grim Reaper!)

Post by Thorpocalypse »

Hey, Jab (or anyone else, actually) what site are you using for photo hosting? Me and Photobucket are about to be done-zo. I tried to be loyal but they've burned me for the last time...
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Re: Wonder Man

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 10:39 pm Image
Image
Image
Image
Goldar wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 2:22 pm WM's original green/red costume makes him look so powerful and it is my favorite one.
Damn straight!!!
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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Avengers Builds! Wonder Man! Grim Reaper!)

Post by Ares »

Thorpocalypse wrote: Sat May 30, 2020 6:16 pm Hey, Jab (or anyone else, actually) what site are you using for photo hosting? Me and Photobucket are about to be done-zo. I tried to be loyal but they've burned me for the last time...
Jab and I both use Smugmug.com, which I can't recommend enough.
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