Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
User avatar
Ken
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: Sycalb, Madiganistan

Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:03 amBut yeah, in the 1980s, it was clearly that Wolfman & Perez wanted to leave the old Titans behind- they only stuck with three of the Original Five, and dumped the third only a few years in. They were, like a lot of creative types, way more into perfecting THEIR new characters. And to their credits, it worked.

Only problem was, DC kept trying new stuff with the old guard, and Wolfman's stuff crapped out by the 1990s, so all of a sudden the Original Five are a big deal again. And then DC keeps trying to push THAT VERSION of the Titans, even though that version was never REMOTELY as popular as the Wolfman/Perez run, nor as respected... and yet a lot of "Titans Revisions" are like "Hey, here's the ORIGINAL FIVE back together!" even though very few people give a crap about that version. There's a reason every subsequent version that did well (the Johns team, the cartoon team) use a variation of the Wolfman/Perez era. Every time we get a "Year One" version of the original Titans, I just grunt and roll my eyes.
There were a lot of different factors. One: the classic Teen Titans may not have been as big as the New Teen Titans, but they did do all right. Their first run was cancelled as they were going through their 'Get Woke' phase. And the Rozakis-era Titans... they were cancelled at the time of the "DC Implosion", but the book actually was NOT in the bottom third of sellers. There was reportedly someone 'upstairs' who was embarrassed by the book. But the fact was is it was selling well in its intended market: not-yet teens.

Two: judging by the Letters Pages, Marv and George regularly received requests to include more of the classic Titans, particularly Roy and Garth. And as the Titans got bigger it actually became useful to include a few of them, particularly for books like "Teen Titans Spotlight". I sincerely doubt Tula would have died in the Crisis if Marv didn't want to have Garth something to angst over.

Three: the people working in comics in the late 1990s were of the right age that they would have been comic fans BEFORE the Wolfman/Perez era, which means it is likely that they had been fans of the pre-New Teen Titans (if they were DC fans in the 1970s). Again, they weren't as big as the New Teen Titans would be in the 80s, but the DC-fans-turned-pros of the 90s, they would have been among the people who had been reading any Titans they could. And nostalgia is a powerful motivator.

Four: the degree to which Wolfman's stuff had crapped out in the 90s cannot be overstated. Post-Crisis "The New Titans" and Marv Wolfman had gained a rep at DC for not playing well with others. Only Changeling and Wally were in "Legends". And "Millenium" and "Invasion" were pretty much Titan free (save Wally, who was of course, the Flash). But the whole Titans Hunt, Danny Chase, Zombie-Vic, Team Titans, Lord Chaos era. It stank. By the time "The New Titans" were cancelled, the vast majority of that corner of the DCU was considered toxic. Only the ex-sidekicks, by dint of being attached to senior heroes escaped the stink.

Four: Wally had his own book. Dick had his own book. Garth was a big enough presence in a C-tier book that was going well at the time that he was at least given a limited series. And Donna was being sh*t upon by John Byrne enough that Donna's fans wanted something better for her. It looked like it was worth giving a shot to "The Titans". And that era wasn't just "the 5 old friends". They included Starfire. They included Vic (though they were hampered by Vic being a golden Plastic Man and not, you know Cyborg). And they had some others foisted on them. And, since Mark waid was writing "Flash" and schtupping Devin Grayson the including Jesse Quick for when Wally is unavailable was manageable.

And "The Titans" had a solid 50 issue run. "Teen Titans" vol. 1 only had a 53 issue run, and that was really a 43 issue run and a 10 issue run. If Didio hadn't taken over at DC and ordered up "Graduation Day" and started the Radium Age, who knows what would have happened.

(Seriously, look at how many comics get cancelled in their first year? Or in their second? Comic book series that reach #50 aren't that common. And the ones who reach over #100? Those are the anchor books. The A-tier and B-tier books.)

And it's not like all of theirs a demand for all of the classic Titans. Bumblebee has been getting some push lately, but when was the last time anyone clamored for more of the Herald? Or Lilith? Or Gnarrk?

No, what simply has happened is that as successful as the Wolfman/Perez Titans were at the peak, they never completely outgrew their roots. For better or ill, the Titans people remember look like:
Image
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
User avatar
KorokoMystia
Posts: 1402
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:06 am I was on the same Wiki, but some of the characters have missing move-sets- fittingly, the only two I've researched so far :). GameFaqs also has a PUNY description of the characters, simply listing move names for some and not all. So this might be a trickier set, at least as far as the Secret Characters go.
Which characters have missing moves? I might be able to help out.
User avatar
Jack of Spades
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 pm
Location: Top of the deck
Contact:

Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Jack of Spades »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:52 am That's interesting- where do the powers come from? I wasn't aware they were that strong or had a Healing-type power (I just used Regeneration).
I often use Healing for regenerator-types – see my Wolverine and X-23 writeups – because it handles the "second wind" moment better than Regeneration, which is totally passive. But the powers were largely a rethink. Originally Don and Hank had essentially the same powers; you just didn't notice Don's super-strength because he didn't hit people, and because they only had super-strength compared to normal people; they weren't even in 5+ ton range. Then Dawn came along, and she was super-agile and saw patterns in things (described a lot like Spider-sense -- sensing a pattern?) and could fly, and Hawk was getting closer to Spider-Man territory. So when I re-did Dawn & Holly for my campaign, I pushed both concepts a bit further, sticking with the core idea that they had the same basic powers but emphasized different things more.
Jack's Deck build threadFantasy Geographic Society campaign web site
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Jabroniville »

KorokoMystia wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:49 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:06 am I was on the same Wiki, but some of the characters have missing move-sets- fittingly, the only two I've researched so far :). GameFaqs also has a PUNY description of the characters, simply listing move names for some and not all. So this might be a trickier set, at least as far as the Secret Characters go.
Which characters have missing moves? I might be able to help out.
Just the two I mentioned, so far. The rest, I haven't looked into yet. There'll be quite a few other Fighting Games before I hit the ROTR set.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Hawk (Sasha Martens)

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

HAWK II (Sasha Martens)
Created By:
Mike Baron
First Appearance: Generations #2 (Oct. 1997)
Role: Army Brat
Group Affiliations: Hawk & Dove
PL 7 (92)
STRENGTH
2/5 STAMINA 3/6 AGILITY 3/5
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Aerobatics 4 (+7, +9 Boost)
Athletics 1 (+3, +6 Boost)
Deception 3 (+5)
Expertise (Military) 5 (+5)
Expertise (Music) 4 (+6)
Insight 2 (+4)
Intimidation 3 (+5)
Perception 3 (+5)
Stealth 1 (+4, +6 Boost)

Advantages:
Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
"Power Boost"
Enhanced Strength 3 (Flaws: Source- Proximity to Dove) [3]
Enhanced Stamina 3 (Flaws: Source- Proximity to Dove) [3]
Enhanced Agility 2 (Flaws: Source- Proximity to Dove) [2]

"Sonic Shriek" Blast 6 [12]
Flight 6 (120 mph) (Flaws: Winged) [6]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Boosted Strength +8 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Sonic Shriek +6 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +5 (+8 Boost, DC 15-18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +3 (+6 Boost), Fortitude +3 (+6 Boost), Will +4

Complications:
Relationship (Willy Wolverman- Dove)
Responsibility (The Government)- Hawk & Dove were meant to be government assassins, and are targetted when they refuse the call.

Total: Abilities: 44 / Skills: 26--13 / Advantages: 4 / Powers: 26 / Defenses: 5 (92)

-Sasha Martens, part of the 1997 Hawk & Dove Limited Series, is an "army brat" daughter of a guy from a long line of military men. An experimental drug cured her of lieukemia many years ago, but ended up giving her wings. She was tougher and fightier than Dove, and was more respectful of military order. By the end of the series, she accepts Amanda Waller's offer of work, but Dove declines. They later show up playing music at a "Titans West" recruitment party.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Dove (Willie Wolverman)

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

DOVE III (Willy Wolverman)
Created By:
Mike Baron
First Appearance: Generations #2 (Oct. 1997)
Role: Rebellious Kid
Group Affiliations: Hawk & Dove
PL 6 (84)
STRENGTH
1/4 STAMINA 3/6 AGILITY 3/5
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Aerobatics 4 (+7, +9 Boost)
Athletics 2 (+3, +6 Boost)
Deception 2 (+5)
Expertise (Music) 5 (+8)
Insight 3 (+5)
Perception 2 (+4)

Advantages:
Ranged Attack 2

Powers:
"Power Boost"
Enhanced Strength 3 (Flaws: Source- Proximity to Hawk) [3]
Enhanced Stamina 3 (Flaws: Source- Proximity to Hawk) [3]
Enhanced Agility 2 (Flaws: Source- Proximity to Hawk) [2]

"Sonic Shriek" Blast 7 [14]
Flight 6 (120 mph) (Flaws: Winged) [6]

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Boosted Strength +6 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Sonic Shriek +4 (+7 Ranged Damage, DC 22)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +5 (+8 Boost, DC 15-18), Parry +6 (DC 16), Toughness +3 (+6 Boost), Fortitude +3 (+6 Boost), Will +4

Complications:
Relationship (Sasha Martens- Hawk)- Willy confesses to loving her.
Rivalry (The Man)- Willy distrusts the government on principle.
Responsibility (The Government)- Hawk & Dove were meant to be government assassins, and are targetted when they refuse the call.

Total: Abilities: 40 / Skills: 18--9 / Advantages: 2 / Powers: 28 / Defenses: 5 (84)

-Willy Wolverman grew up the son of a nihilist and a Broadway star, and was cured of a strange disease by the same program that gave Sasha Martens her powers. Joining a band called The Doves, he meets up with Sasha, and the two sprout wings and fight government agents and a conspiracy. While Sasha agrees to join Amanda Waller when the fighting is done, Wally refuses to work for "The Man", confesses his love for Sasha, and flies away. They later show up playing music at a "Titans West" recruitment party, likely because the writer didn't care.

-Dove is weaker than Hawk, but I boosted his Sonic Shriek, lest he become overwhelmingly worse. I really have no idea what their power levels are, though.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
KorokoMystia
Posts: 1402
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:06 pm Just the two I mentioned, so far. The rest, I haven't looked into yet. There'll be quite a few other Fighting Games before I hit the ROTR set.
When you look into it further, let me know and I'll see what I can do. Also, as far as I can tell, the way the "shared projectiles" work is that there are six different types of generic projectiles that each character usually starts with at least one of, and it is possible to steal one from the opponent by performing the "Fatality" move, Executions, on them.

Also, wow..just how many Hawk and Dove pairs are there?
User avatar
Woodclaw
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:05 pm
Location: Como, Italy

Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Woodclaw »

KorokoMystia wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:28 pm Also, wow..just how many Hawk and Dove pairs are there?
Three or four depends on how you count them:
  • The Hall brothers, Hank and Don
  • The winged ones, see above
  • The Granger sisters, Holly and Dawn
  • Also Hank and Dawn usually work together
"You're right. Sorry. Holy shit," I breathed, "heckhounds.”

WareHouse W (main build thread for M&M)
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

The Flash (Wally)

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image
Image

THE FLASH III (Wallace Rudolph "Wally" West, aka Kid Flash I)
Created By:
John Broome & Carmine Infantino
First Appearance: The Flash #110 (Dec. 1959)
Role: Speedster, The Average Guy, Team Stick-In-The-Mud
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, The Justice League of America, The Titans
PL 12 (244)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 8/10 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 7 (+10)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 4 (+12, +14 Speed Force)
Deception 2 (+5)
Expertise (Science) 3 (+5)
Insight 5 (+7)
Investigation 6 (+8)
Perception 4 (+6)
Persuasion 2 (+5)
Ranged Combat (Thrown Objects) 3 (+13)
Sleight of Hand 2 (+6)
Stealth 1 (+6)
Technology 3 (+5)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Agile Feint, Defensive Attack, Defensive Roll 5, Equipment (Uniform Inside Ring), Evasion, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Inspire, Move-By Action, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 6, Redirect, Seize Initiative, Set-Up, Takedown 2, Teamwork

Powers:
"Access to the Speed Force"
Speed 20 (2,000,000 mph) [20]
Quickness 20 [20]
Enhanced Advantages 5: Enhanced Initiative 5 [5]
Enhanced Fighting 2 [4]
Immunity 1 (Friction Heat) [1]

"Lend Speed"
Speed 8 (Extras: Affects Others Only +0) (Flaws: Fades) [4]
Quickness 6 (Extras: Affects Others Only +0) (Flaws: Fades) [3]
Enhanced Fighting 4 (Extras: Affects Others Only +0) (Flaws: Fades) [4]
Enhanced Dodge 4 (Extras: Affects Others Only +0) (Flaws: Fades) [2]
Senses 2 (Rapid Vision & Hearing) [2]

"Speed Feats"
Movement 3 (Wall-Crawling 2, Water-Walking) (Flaws: Limited to While Running) [3]
"Knockdown Whirlwind" Affliction 12 (Dodge; Hindered/Prone) (Extras: Area- 60ft. Line +2) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Instant Recovery) Linked to Damage 6 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Line +2) (30) -- [42]
  • AE: "Suffocating Whirlwind" Affliction 12 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Cylindar) (24)
  • AE: "Move Debris" Move Object 11 (Extras: 60ft. Cylindar +2) (Flaws: Touch Range) (22)
  • AE: "Rapid Attack" Strength-Damage +5 (Extras: Multiattack 8) (13)
  • AE: "Hyperfast Punch" Strength-Damage +7 (7)
  • AE: "Hit Everyone in Range" Strength-Damage +5 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2 for 8 ranks) (21)
  • AE: "Throw Debris" Blast 8 (Extras: Multiattack) (Quirks: Requires Debris -1) (23)
  • AE: "Spin Attack" Affliction 12 (Fort; Impaired & Dazed/Stunned & Defenseless/Incapacitated) (Extras: Extra Condition) (Flaws: Grab-Based) (12)
  • AE: Deflect 12 (12)
  • AE: "Vibrating Molecules" Damage 12 (Extras: Multiattack) (24)
  • AE: "Vibrating Molecules to Make Things Kersplode" Damage 12 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (24)
  • AE: "Heal Others" Healing 8 (Flaws: Limited to Capabilities of Natural Recovery) (8)
  • AE: "Stealing Speed" Weaken Speed Powers 10 (Extras: Perception-Ranged +2) (30)
Offense:
Unarmed +14 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Hyperfast Punch +14 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Rapid Attack +14 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Vibrating Molecules +14 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Hit Everyone +8 Area (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Throw Debris +12 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Spin Attack +12 (+12 Affliction, DC 22)
Whirlwinds +12 Area (+12 Affliction, DC 22)
Initiative +21

Defenses:
Dodge +16 (DC 26), Parry +16 (DC 26), Toughness +3 (+8 D.Roll), Fortitude +6, Will +10

Complications:
Motivation (Honoring Barry Allen's Memory)- Wally West treated Barry like a beloved father, and was among those most-struck by his death. He devotes his career as The Flash to upholding Barry's memory.
Relationship (Linda Park, Kids, etc.)- Wally has a pretty massive supporting cast of his own.
Enemy (The Rogues)- Wally & Barry's large Rogues Gallery of nutty Gimmick Villains and others provide a constant source of annoyance. Some are more good-natured, some are just in it for money, and some are straight-up murderous (Professor Zoom).
Relationship (Kyle Rayner)- The two got off to a bad start (Wally was actively against the rookie Lantern, feeling he hadn't earned his keep), but eventually became close friends.
Relationship (Dick Grayson)- Wally & Nightwing are best friends.
Quirk (Big Eater)- Wally requires a great deal of nourishment to maintain his high-speed lifestyle.

Total: Abilities: 56 / Skills: 44--22 / Advantages: 28 / Powers: 110 / Defenses: 28 (244)

Kid Flash- Kid Sidekick in a Much Better Costume:
-Wally West debuted as "Kid Flash", debuting as a generic Kid Sidekick, gaining Flash's powers in a horribly-contrived way by JUST HAPPENING to be struck by a lightning bolt hitting the same chemicals that'd caused Barry Allen's transformation. He was an off-and-on sidekick of The Flash, and even joined the Teen Titans in their first incarnation. He initially just wore a Flash costume, but he got a REALLY amazing yellow version with the hair showing in 1963- something that impressed even my DC-hating ass back when I first discovered the character in a Who's Who issue. He has kind of has a weird place in Titans history, though, as he was there for almost all the major initial stories (the '60s era, the debut of the Wolfman/Perez era, the mass battles against Trigon), but then rapidly disappeared from the book- he thus missed out on The Judas Contract, which was the high water mark of the series. This essentially makes him the Titans' "Banshee"- the guy who was on the team during the Golden Years Creative Team (Claremont, Cockrum & Byrne/Wolfman & Perez), but left right before the epic "Iconic Tale" (Dark Phoenix/Judas Contract), meaning that the character was unfortunately forgotten, even in retrospectives. See, he would quickly gain one of those "Quick, we gotta write this guy out" maladies, as his super-speed would make him ill, and he more or less retired, volunteering the young Terra to take his place.

-In the '80s however, Wally was kind of the "boring guy"- the regular guy with powers, dealing with all the nutty characters around him who were all obsessive and stuff (Dick, Raven & Victor were pure angst, Gar was a joker, Starfire all passion, and Donna was the only other normal one), but with a sense of middle-American douchebaggery, as he constantly gave Red Star crap for being a "Commie" etc. He was the one dishing out all the conservative points of view, while the others were all more liberal. Made for a unique perspective, even though Wolfman clearly didn't take his side most of the time, making him a strawman at points (and by "almost" I mean "Wally was depicted as a giant, uncompromising ass every time politics showed up, and justified it by implying that this was natural behavior for a Conservative").

-But Wally just wasn't a good FIT for the book sometimes- he didn't fit the two "Triangles" that Wolfman & Perez had designed around the team. In a preface to one collected Titans edition, Wolfman explains that Cyborg was serious & Changeling too much of a joker, and that Raven was serious and Starfire was pure passion- Dick & Donna represented the "balance" between the extremes. Wally, of course, was the odd man out, and this is why he basically had to leave.

Wally West- The Flash:
-Wally would get a shocking re-push in 1985, when he replaced his dead uncle Barry Allen as the NEW FLASH, something that was a crazy leap for the time- no major hero had ever died and been replaced by his Kid Sidekick growing into the role before! This was HUGE! Wally would start out a bit slower, but would rapidly become one of DC's most powerful superheroes. 1987 saw a new Flash series, where Wally would win the lottery and spend it lavishly, kind of being a douchebag hero, I guess. He would gain power after fighting the Reverse-Flash, and Mark Waid would write a HUGE run that featured many new "Speed Force"-related feats, as well as a more elaborate explanation of what the Speed Force actually WAS. At the same time, he'd be recruited in a true-blue "Big Seven" JLA, with Grant Morrison writing even MORE insane Power Feats for the guy in his legendary JLA run.

-Wally also joined The Titans during this time, as it was a big thing to reunite the Original Five Titans along with the "Wolfman/Perez" Titans that were available (an iffy move that split up the BEST team and left some disparate adult heroes on the squad). Devin Grayson wrote him more or less dealing with the fact that he was on multiple teams, with it actually being an issue (ironically, The Fastest Man Alive would have more trouble juggling TWO teams than Wolverine would have juggling FIVE). Grayson was also mortified when she got her book IMMEDIATELY screwed up by a Flash story, as Wally was replaced by another version of himself, so she was left with a character she knew nothing about on her team- she rightfully complained about this in later interviews; the kind of thing that makes modern comic book writers miserable. Wally would eventually bail on this team. He was really too powerful for it, anyways- the Titans were a "PL 10" kind of squad, and Wally was EEEEEEEEEEEEASILY PL 12 by this point, pulling off ridiculous feats in other books that would have made the rest of the team redundant.

-The 2000s saw Geoff Johns revitalize the character yet again, as he took his natural preference for villains over superheroes and made the "Flash Rogues" into this iconic group of bad guys. Being a Marvel fan with no early love for DC, I never saw guys with idiotic names like "Captain Cold", "Captain Boomerang" or "Mirror Master" as anything but a giant bunch of imbeciles, but people swear that the run was VERY GOOD and that the villains all became great characters. In this series, Wally would settle down and marry Linda Park, have children, get The Spectre to make his identity secret once more, and then disappear into the timestream so that Bart Allen could be the new Flash. However, Bart is quickly killed, and Wally returns with super-aged children (AGH THAT DAMN TROPE AGAIN).

-Around this time, the character would appear in the phenomenal Justice League series, though to fit the team dynamics, he was converted into a wacky, immature jokester, prone to sight gags, pranks, and "dudebro"-type dialogue. This made him HILARIOUS, however, and he quickly became a favorite, even though he was almost nothing like his comic book version.

Post-2000s Wally:
-Wally kind of got the shaft over the past decade, as Johns would reintroduce Barry Allen, thus reversing one of the most legendary heroic deaths in all of comics. This muddled up Wally, Barry and several other characters, and would be the impetus behind the "New 52" which started a new continuity. Here, DC attempts to add diversity by making "Wallace West" biracial, and Barry's sidekick of sorts. And then he restarts continuity AGAIN as "DC Rebirth" brings about a "sort of the same" version of the old continuity.

The Fastest Man Alive:
-Like much of the Big Seven, The Flash is a high-level character, packing PL 12 stats and a points cost equalling Marvel's top-tiers as well. Super-Speed can end up pricey with all the add-ons and Extras and Power Feats and stuff, but hey- it's The Big Seven. No time to save points, ya know? He's got a TON of tricks to use with it, from rapid-fire bursts to massive super-fast punches, to air currents, spinning, vibrations that blow stuff up, etc. His Super-Speed boosts his Attack & Defense bonuses up to REALLY high levels, too, but he can still be caught flat-footed alright. He's also capable of Lending Speed to others, which he did often enough that I felt like including it, but it's not a regular thing. He's only PL 11 with his Super-Speed Punches (varying between a Multiattack, a stronger Super-Punch, and Area Effects), but at PL 12 defensively, he's one of the hardest super-heroes to land a solid hit on.

Image

KID FLASH I (Wallace Rudolph "Wally" West)
Created By:
John Broome & Carmine Infantino
First Appearance: The Flash #110 (Dec. 1959)
Role: Speedster, The Average Guy, Team Stick-In-The-Mud
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, The Justice League of America, The Titans
PL 10 (185)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 8/10 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Athletics 5 (+8)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 4 (+12, +14 Speed Force)
Deception 2 (+5)
Expertise (Pop Culture) 2 (+4)
Insight 3 (+5)
Investigation 2 (+4)
Perception 4 (+6)
Persuasion 1 (+3)
Ranged Combat (Thrown Objects) 1 (+11)
Sleight of Hand 2 (+6)
Stealth 1 (+6)
Technology 2 (+4)
Vehicles 1 (+5)

Advantages:
Agile Feint, Defensive Attack, Defensive Roll 2, Equipment (Uniform Inside Ring), Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Move-By Action, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 6, Redirect, Seize Initiative, Set-Up, Takedown 2, Teamwork

Powers:
"Access to the Speed Force"
Speed 13 (16,000 mph) [13]
Quickness 12 [12]
Enhanced Advantages 3: Enhanced Initiative 3 [3]
Enhanced Fighting 2 [4]
Immunity 1 (Friction Heat) [1]
Senses 2 (Rapid Vision & Hearing) [2]

"Speed Feats"
Movement 3 (Wall-Crawling 2, Water-Walking) (Flaws: Limited to While Running) [3]
"Knockdown Whirlwind" Affliction 10 (Dodge; Hindered/Prone) (Extras: Area- 60ft. Line +2) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Instant Recovery) Linked to Damage 6 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Line +2) (28) -- [35]
  • AE: "Suffocating Whirlwind" Affliction 10 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Cylindar) (24)
  • AE: "Move Debris" Move Object 10 (Extras: 60ft. Cylindar +2) (Flaws: Touch Range) (20)
  • AE: "Rapid Attack" Strength-Damage +3 (Extras: Multiattack 6) (9)
  • AE: "Hit Everyone in Range" Strength-Damage +3 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2 for 6 ranks) (15)
  • AE: "Throw Debris" Blast 8 (Extras: Multiattack) (Quirks: Requires Debris -1) (23)
  • AE: Deflect 12 (12)
  • AE: "Vibrating Molecules" Insubstantial 4 (Flaws: Limited to While Running) (16)
Offense:
Unarmed +14 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Hyperfast Punch +14 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Rapid Attack +14 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Hit Everyone +6 Area (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Throw Debris +12 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Whirlwinds +10 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 20)
Initiative +17

Defenses:
Dodge +14 (DC 24), Parry +14 (DC 24), Toughness +3 (+5 D.Roll), Fortitude +6, Will +7

Complications:
Relationship (Barry Allen)- Wally looks up to Barry greatly, but doesn't talk about him much to his fellow Titans.
Relationship (Raven)- Wally was convinced that he loved Raven, but grew to despise her when he found out it was due to manipulation on her part (she wanted him to help her fight Trigon).
Responsibility (Conservative)- Wally is extremely conservative, and violently against Russian people and "Commies" like them. He wishes his Liberal teammates wouldn't give him trouble over this.
Disabled (Speed Kills)- Wally's own powers are in fact slowly killing him. He would discover this, and eventually retire due to them. It was fixed during The Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Relationship (Frances Kane)- Magenta eventually hooks up with Wally, and her desires to have a normal life would help convince him to retire.

Total: Abilities: 54 / Skills: 30--15 / Advantages: 25 / Powers: 70 / Defenses: 21 (185)

-As Kid Flash, Wally is a great help to his teammates, but often gets overshadowed by their greater power. At this point, he's basically just Flash Lite. At PL 10 (184), he's the priciest of the squad so far.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Tempest! Hawk & Dove! The Flash!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Several things I notice while researching the Teen Titans once more:

JESUS- IT'S A LOT OF WORK:
* These builds are much more... LABOR-INTENSIVE, I guess... than most other teams with rosters of equivalent size. It's rather weird, because you wouldn't THINK that would be so. Every team has "loser characters" after all, and the Titans famously have a TON of them. And yet... this feels like MORE WORK in a way than the Justice League, Avengers or X-Men would.

I think it's because there's actually a rather large amount of Titans who are somewhat important or well-rounded, in comparison to other teams. You could stat the X-Men for a while and still only hit the minor characters who kind of flamed out quickly. The Avengers have most of Marvel's big names, but also a lot of Tigras and Living Lightnings. The JLA famously had a TERRIBLE roster for a number of years, and a lot of failed acts like Dr. Light II or General Glory or whatever. The Legion of Super-Heroes, of course, has an ENORMOUS roster comprised of a lot of guys who only had the occasional bit of focus over their 40-50 years (Colossal Boy, Star Boy, etc.).

The TITANS, however... first off, all five of the "Kid Sidekicks" have a huge history, often going back 50+ years. No way you're researching THAT quickly. Then the core Wolfman/Perez team has a HUGE history with very well-developed characters- adding 4-5 to the roster of "big bios". Then you get some sucky characters who managed to suck SO EXTRAORDINARILY WELL that even THEIR bios are huge (a certain teen telekinetic, for example). And when you add in the modern crew, sure there's a TON of one-offs (the "One Year Gap" era, and Titans East), but also a band of ADDITIONAL sidekicks, plus a few side characters given a lot of focus (like Rose Wilson & Kid Devil).

All of this adds up to make the set a LOT of work, despite the swaths of jobbers. I've found that nearly every day I have to look up a new A-level or B-level character. It's almost a 1-4 ratio of "detailed" to "minor one-off", which is CRAZY. Nothing characters like Hawk & Dove required a MASSIVE essay to even have a hope of explaining them, I needed to re-research Wally West, Roy Harper, Garth & others, plus build Conner Kent, Cassie Sandsmark and assorted other new Titans for the very first time.

MARV WOLFMAN:
* Regarding Marv Wolfman being "a hack", that's certainly a new one to me. But even he would admit he bottomed out by the end of his Titans run. The rest of his body of work is pretty serviceable- I've read some of his 1970s Marvel work, and it's even with most of the stuff I've read from the time- two years of Spider-Man, two years of Fantastic Four, and four years of Marvel Two-In-One (my favorite!)- he was a legitimate talent, though not mind-blowing- his work was very serviceable and holds up just fine today. And I'm no horror fan, but I've heard people jerk themselves off over his Tomb of Dracula stuff as well.

Now... obviously, Perez was the best part of that book. The difference between Wolfman/Perez and Wolfman/Everybody Else was WORLDS beyond Claremont without his big partners (writing great X-Men with 5-6 different artists pretty much proves his talent right there), or Stan Lee without Jack & Steve. But Wolfman's Post-Perez stuff was still QUITE good, and maintained itself for a good while. It was only by the '90s that it became the famous embarrassment it became.

I'm never heard the "DC Office Version" of Wolfman's personality. All I've heard in the past was how annoyed a lot of people were that he & George got to basically set the DC Universe on fire and make everybody sacrifice one of their characters on the altar of making it "matter". Maybe they were PO'd that the reboot didn't pan out the way they'd like (to be fair, most of that wasn't Wolfman's fault). DC's early '90s crossovers were infamously bad, though it's a bit funny that Wolfman wasn't allowed to "play" (though his Team Titans were sacrificed in Zero Hour). I'd love more backstory about that bit.

A HACK, though? Who Is Donna Troy? had to have TWO people working on it. The Judas Contract, Crisis on Infinite Earths (one of the biggest stories ever, with some of the best deaths and epic situations ever), The Terror of Trigon and more- Perez was the best part of that duo, but Wolfman definitely had his own input. Dude was good... he just couldn't keep it going like Claremont did, which spiked the legacy of his book and made his characters irrelevant.
User avatar
Ken
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: Sycalb, Madiganistan

Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Tempest! Hawk & Dove! The Flash!)

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:10 am MARV WOLFMAN:
* Regarding Marv Wolfman being "a hack", that's certainly a new one to me. But even he would admit he bottomed out by the end of his Titans run. The rest of his body of work is pretty serviceable- I've read some of his 1970s Marvel work, and it's even with most of the stuff I've read from the time- two years of Spider-Man, two years of Fantastic Four, and four years of Marvel Two-In-One (my favorite!)- he was a legitimate talent, though not mind-blowing- his work was very serviceable and holds up just fine today. And I'm no horror fan, but I've heard people jerk themselves off over his Tomb of Dracula stuff as well.

Now... obviously, Perez was the best part of that book. The difference between Wolfman/Perez and Wolfman/Everybody Else was WORLDS beyond Claremont without his big partners (writing great X-Men with 5-6 different artists pretty much proves his talent right there), or Stan Lee without Jack & Steve. But Wolfman's Post-Perez stuff was still QUITE good, and maintained itself for a good while. It was only by the '90s that it became the famous embarrassment it became.

I'm never heard the "DC Office Version" of Wolfman's personality. All I've heard in the past was how annoyed a lot of people were that he & George got to basically set the DC Universe on fire and make everybody sacrifice one of their characters on the altar of making it "matter". Maybe they were PO'd that the reboot didn't pan out the way they'd like (to be fair, most of that wasn't Wolfman's fault). DC's early '90s crossovers were infamously bad, though it's a bit funny that Wolfman wasn't allowed to "play" (though his Team Titans were sacrificed in Zero Hour). I'd love more backstory about that bit.

A HACK, though? Who Is Donna Troy? had to have TWO people working on it. The Judas Contract, Crisis on Infinite Earths (one of the biggest stories ever, with some of the best deaths and epic situations ever), The Terror of Trigon and more- Perez was the best part of that duo, but Wolfman definitely had his own input. Dude was good... he just couldn't keep it going like Claremont did, which spiked the legacy of his book and made his characters irrelevant.
Well, you probably haven't heard it before because I'm not sure it's a particularly common opinion, and I don't tend to have reason to mention it that often.

That said, look at the Perez-less issues of New Teen Titans (vol. 2)... the first thing we see in #7 is the introduction of Azrael (the Winged Man); the forgettable (literally it would be retconned away) Lilith Daughter Of Thia arc; the introduction of Kole, the sacrificial lamb; the spinning his wheels because he's busy with the Crisis; Kory gets married on Tamaran; Donna assembles the old team and expects JASON to lead; Mento gets a wheelchair and assembled an X-Men parody (the Hybrid); the lengthy Brother Blood and Azrael vs the Titans story where Raven and Dick are brainwashed; more Zandia; more Hybrid; the introduction of the Wildebeests (truly a gnu concept); Raven wanting to get some Dick; Danny Chase; more Wildebeests; Godiva; the post-Crisis Dial-H kids; Red Star vs Hammer & Sickle... and then, mercifully George comes back...

And we get "who is Wonder Girl", the introduction of Troia (retconning Lilith's origin), and a flashback to the post-Crisis version of Gnarrk's story...

Then, George leaves, and we get a Wildebeest society multi-parter.

George comes back for the Tim Drake introduction "A Lonely Place of Dying"...

Then we get the introduction of Deathstroke as an anti-hero, a story with Raven in love with a bad guy...

Then the first non-Wolfman written story in the book - the Gambler/Royal flush Gang story by Barb and Karl Kesel.

Then another Deathstroke as anti-hero, and then "Titans Hunt" (with Phantasm, Pantha, Baby Wildbeest, Vic being lobotomised, etc.) and it's October 1990.

Maybe there are some winners in there. Maybe without George's pencils, stories just expanded in length because of George's concise panel designs. But when the new ideas of the era are the Wildebeests, Godiva, the Hybrid, the Winged Man, and Danny Chase, in my opinion it just looks sad. I'm not speaking of pre-Titans stuff. But, in my opinion, Marv without George was on a downward spiral from the get go. In my opinion, the introduction of Azrael, the Winged Man, was the moment the New (Teen) Titans jumped the proverbial shark.

Your Mileage May Vary.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Magenta

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image
Image
Image

MAGENTA (Frances "Frankie" Kane)
Created By:
Gardner Fox & Gil Kane
First Appearance: The New Teen Titans #17 (March 1982)
Role: Magnetic Girl, "I Just Want To Be Normal!" Girl
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans (Ally)
PL 9 (101)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Athletics 2 (+3)
Insight 2 (+3)
Perception 2 (+3)
Ranged Combat (Magnetics) 4 (+8)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 2

Powers:
"Metal Blast" Blast 8 (Extras: Multiattack) (Quirks: Requires Metallic Objects) (23) -- [25]
  • AE: "Metal Wrap-Around" Snare 10 (Feats: Reversible) (Flaws: Requires Large Ferrous Materials) (21)
  • AE: "Magnetic Powers" Move Object 10 (Extras: Perception Range) (Flaws: Limited to Ferrous Materials) (20)
"Sense Magnetic Fields" Senses 4 (Detect Magnetic Energy- Acute & Accurate) [4]
"Repel Against The Magnetic Field" Flight 7 (250 mph) [14]

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Metal Blast +8 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Metal Snare +8 (+10 Ranged Affliction, DC 20)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +3, Fortitude +5, Will +3

Complications:
Involuntary Transformation (Magenta)- Frances has a separate identity whenever she uses her powers- the villainous Magenta.

Total: Abilities: 38 / Skills: 10--5 / Advantages: 4 / Powers: 43 / Defenses: 11 (101)

-Frances Kane was a somewhat-recurring character in the early '80 Teen Titans books, as a girlfriend for Wally West, once he dropped his love for Raven. A more normal girl for the fairly normal Wally (fans complained that Wally was the most boring & bland Titan), she rejected his push to become a superhero. Disappearing from the books, she showed up in JLA/Titans and was instrumental to saving the day- in a cute bit, ORION was legitimately impressed and told her so, acting uncharacteristically magnanimous with praise ("Magenta here has done a VERY good job!"). Usually depicted as a normal girl, she nonetheless had a full-blown "Carrie" kind of thing where she'd gain some out-of-control Magnetic Powers and go evil for a bit- despite her past relationship with Wally, she'd often end up fighting him- she eventually went totally nuts on him when he became The Flash. It turned out that her powers were linked to her lack of sanity, so she would often go normal once she stopped using them- the occasional bout of heroism would soon send her down the path towards crazy again. When she gathered together with some other Rogues, she soon reformed, tearing Girder in half, and fighting against the others.

-Frances was a pretty minor-league threat, fitting a PL 8/9 Blaster with not a lot of other abilities (I mean, she's a NORMAL GIRL who goes crazy and gains super-powers, not a career super-villain who has a lot of experience with other Skills), but by the time she became a bigger Flash Rogue, she gained a lot of power, so this represents her as a younger character. Even by the 2000-era "JLA/Titans" crossover she was basically a masked Filler Character with no real focus (her best moment came from doing some Magnetic Stuff to fix the Earth's magnetic field in a certain spot or something.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Sidious
Posts: 1610
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:27 am

Re: Magenta

Post by Sidious »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:23 pm Complications:
Involuntary Transformation (Magenta)- Frances has a separate identity whenever she uses her powers- the villainous Magenta.
I've noticed that DC tends to have this as a common complication for it's magnetic characters. I think the only ones not to have this to start is Cosmic Boy and Braalians. I think they were trying to play on the whole magnetic poles equating to polar opposite personalities within a person.
FuzzyBoots
Posts: 2396
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Magenta

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Sidious wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:49 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:23 pm Complications:
Involuntary Transformation (Magenta)- Frances has a separate identity whenever she uses her powers- the villainous Magenta.
I've noticed that DC tends to have this as a common complication for it's magnetic characters. I think the only ones not to have this to start is Cosmic Boy and Braalians. I think they were trying to play on the whole magnetic poles equating to polar opposite personalities within a person.
It may also be tied with the almost mystic association of EEG tests and "brain activity" being a matter of electricity. Thus, someone who was manipulating magnetic forces would be also affecting their brains. There's another technology... something involving PET scan technology, that explicitly uses magnetic forces to manipulate brain signals, with everything from lab experiments where they've induced religious ecstasy in subjects (basically, there's a part of the brain which, in most people, produces a sense of a presence of a higher being, leading to debates as to whether this supports atheism, that the "presence of God" is a brain glitch, or supports religion, in that obviously there's something out there that we can sense when our brain is aligned right) to a number of snake oil products that claim to use this technology to induce meditative states at home.
User avatar
Bladewind
Posts: 3234
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:26 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Tempest! Hawk & Dove! The Flash!)

Post by Bladewind »

Ken wrote: Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:46 amDonna assembles the old team and expects JASON to lead;
That one actually ended well from a writing perspective in my opinion.

It came down to Jason ripping Donna a new one with a slightly better speech than - "Hey, I`get it. I've got the legs to pull off this outfit. But I'm a jerk, not a Dick!" Essentially calling her out for mistaking his name and outfit with the previous leader who wore that mantle. Which was actually a decent development for Donna's character more than a reasonable expectation of Jason.
Thorpocalypse wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:01 pm Building to be comics "accurate" is different than building to run a PC or building something to challenge a group.
Bladewind's 3ed M&M Builds
The Merge Setting document
Post Reply