[OOC] MnM 3e - In the Shadow of Imperator

[Supernaturalist]

First I want to say that I really enjoy this game. I’ve read many of the other games on Echoes of the Multiverse, and this imo is one of the best (if not the overall best) story on the website. I know how hard it is to GM. I tried it once and it ended up in failure. I’ve played several PbP games of the years, and I think you’re the best GM I’ve had. I do, however, want to speak my mind on some points.

Imperator was a downright evil, horrible, dictator. He was, and there is no question about it, a total and complete villain. Imperator was very charismatic and had a good propaganda machine though. Imperator's Praetors were equally evil, horrible, people as well. Your characters have never been on the side of "good" or "right". Not to any degree. Let's get that straight so there is no confusion OOC.

While it may be true that Imperator was “downright evil” and “a complete villain”, that was never evident from the outset of the game. It is also rather dismissive to say that the “characters have never been on the side of good”. I went back and read the bios of all the original characters. Without exception each one joined The Cause due to a belief in its righteousness. Some characters like Hitori and Peter even have Complications like “Honor” and “True Believer”. These complications are inconsistent with completely sociopathic behavior. I think most players always assumed that unsavory deeds would have to be done if they were to serve Null, and that most of the world would view us as villains. But no one assumed that they would be signing up for extremely unnecessary cruelty and oppression for its own sake. The PCs may not be on the side of “good”, but some cannot stop believing that they are on the side of good without catastrophic psychological consequences. I think Hitori, Iona, and Peter are good examples based on their bios and complications.

Putting that aside, in Iona's scene I was looking for some clue that Supernaturalist was going to commit one way or another. Either doing as Sokolov instructed or refusing to. You waffled, were indecisive, and did not make your intent clear to me. When Iona took up the drill, I considered that your sign of committing to the torture and leaving it open to me to narrate a fade to black. In the future, I need you to be more clear with your intent. Make an OOC comment. Put in some internal monologue. Something. I do not want to drag on scenes like this because they are a sensitive topic. At the same time, I don't want to ignore them outright, and the emotional impact they should have.

This was my fault. I tried to extend the scene without providing adequate indication that I was doing so. I can see how it could easily be taken as a cue to start the torture process.

OOC, it is alright for Iona to refuse. However, bear in mind, this is not meant to be a story of "good people doing bad things, some of the time ... but only when they have to". This is a villain game. The erosion of the PC's humanity, and devolution into evil is meant to be a significant theme of the story. If your characters aren't having to fight to maintain their humanity, and loosing pieces of themselves along the way, I'm failing in my goal.

This sounds similar to the premise of Vampire: The Masquerade, where characters start with a certain level of humanity and struggle to maintain it. Humanity, once totally lost, renders the PC a remorseless beast. In that game, once the character reaches “zero” humanity, they hand their character over to the GM. I know that this is your game, and you can do whatever you please, but I hope that this is not your goal for all characters. I think it works well for Diego as part of his story. It makes his character unique and interesting. But having this as the pathway and ultimate destination for all PCs? I hope not. Some of the best villains -fictional and non-fictional- retained at least some humanity. Sociopaths more often than not end up as serial killers rather than movers-and-shakers.

Coming from an IC perspective, Iona/Levi has stagnated for a while. They are not working past their persistent naïve and ignorant attitude. It is an ongoing problem in the eyes of people around them that has repeatedly had a negative impact on their assignments. Measures are going to be taken to invoke a change in their attitude. That needs to be acknowledged by you. My hope is that this can be used as an opportunity for character development and growth. Where you take that is up to you.

Iona/Levi should easily qualify as a villain. Levi was one of the first characters to try and kill someone in the game (back when he tried to lethally inject a security guard that stumbled upon him). He barely lost any sleep when Hitori ate those kids that threatened him in Sokolov’s medical facility. And as for Iona, she has killed people for The Cause and was ready to cut the heart out of an innocent man to get ride to Singapore. She is perfectly capable of mass murder on a colossal scale if people oppose the cause she believes in. She is also capable of torture to further it. It should not take much to convince a normal person that she is indeed a card-carrying villain. She has already lost some of her humanity in doing these actions. But unless she has her mind altered (and is just a completely different person), she will never be ok with mindless, pathological torture and killing. Iona only seems “sweet” and “naïve” because she is (relatively speaking) the most empathetic of the PCs. When compared to Diego, Iona looks like (if you’ll pardon the language) a pussy. But that’s only because Diego is at the extreme end of the moral spectrum. Only when compared to him does she seem stagnant and tender-hearted. I think Peter is actually closer to Iona’s personality than he is Diego’s. But that’s just my opinion. Also, just because Diego is complaining IC about Iona's naivety doesn't mean that she really is. It seems to me that the IC complaining has lead to an OOC opinion that it's true. I've been concerned that that has been the case. Apparently my concerns have been validated. I do find it quite odd that Carman impulsively shot the pustule that ended up destroying our best escape route (one that would have allowed us to bypass the entire catastrophic fight scene); and no one has said a word about her "ignorance" or "naivety". Heck, Dr. Sokolov even defended her, which I thought was utterly ridiculous. But that is spilled milk under the bridge.

I will edit my post to account for Iona not going through with the torture and murder. It will remain a scene-ender post though. It will also take Iona out of action for a while. A few days at least. We can either skip ahead or you can use that time to focus on playing Steiner, once he is fully fleshed out.

In conclusion, the only character in the game that has struck me as evil from the beginning is Null. But even the true depth of his evil did not become apparent for some time. The extreme evil of Null is not an issue for Iona if he is held in check by others who are not as completely diabolical. Dr. Sokolov always seemed to be a notch below Null on the evil ranking-chart (until recently with the last few posts). This fact has led Iona to prefer Dr. Sokolov’s presence over Null’s. It has also led her to be more loyal and supportive of him than of Null. But If Iona comes to believe that Dr. Sokolov is no better, and furthermore that “The Cause” is just a power-grab by a group of really powerful, yet utterly depraved sociopaths, then she would look to abandon it at some point. She might even be tempted to help Stronghold defeat such a group…even at the cost of her own life. But if the illusion of righteousness persists, then she can rationalize all the horrible things that she does. From time to time she may even enjoy crushing her enemies and taking pleasure in their defeat and misery. But drowning kittens and puppies, shoving bamboo between the fingers of koala bears, and the gratuitous torture of innocents for absolutely no reason, these are things that she cannot do willingly. I’m not trying to be difficult or ruin anyone’s fun, but that’s just how I see the character. I’m not sure what I should do going forward.

[mrdent12]

For Diego, I've been playing him with major arcs in the mind the same as I write any character. The first one was wrote up in his back ground of idealistic college kid slowly getting corrupted. The next bit was the game starting to ascension with him coming to terms with doing horrible things in the name of "good". In that he went from killing a bunch of people just to escape, to almost getting caught because he wanted to save a woman and her child, and finally to wrestling with guilt under stress. He's in the next big arc now where he's not human and has the human emotions slipping away. As the arc has progressed he's done the same roller coaster ride to a smaller degree of seeing killing as the most efficient way to having to temper it. Even at his worst, he'd only kill innocents if there was a reason or Null commanded it as he's learned what defying Null means.

Caman shooting the puss sack was implicitly agreed to by Diego. Not the best decision on his part he would have brought up more if the player behind Carman was still around. OC wise, I've had no issues with how Iona or Levi's been played. So, wasn't my intention to have the IC views of Diego bleed over into OOC. IC, Iona is certainly a villain. I've mentioned it before, but the three PC's cover a nice spectrum of villainy. Iona the remorseful one for a "good" cause, Peter the waffling yet ultimately following orders, and Diego the remorseless one for a "good"/ordered cause.

A lot of Diegos growth has come from the idea in his mind that he might help bring about Utopia, but have no place in it because of what he had to do. Sort of like the Operative in Serenity, but without a conscious.

[Sakuro]

While it may be true that Imperator was “downright evil” and “a complete villain”, that was never evident from the outset of the game. It is also rather dismissive to say that the “characters have never been on the side of good”.

...

This sounds similar to the premise of Vampire: The Masquerade, where characters start with a certain level of humanity and struggle to maintain it.

The Cause is tainted fruit begun and lead by evil people. OOC, you have to realize that. I never hid it. I did show your characters the "bright side", so they had something to fight for and believe in. Over time the veneer has been stripped away a little here and there and I have been showing you more of the poison in the veins of the Uptonian Dream. While doing so I have repeatedly stated that the game is intended to be a story about villains. It was in the initial premise. You are bad people, doing bad things, for an evil leader (Null. If Null is a bad person and they are following Imperator's template you can connect the dots).

I have a long background in the World of Darkness, which VtM is part of. My storytelling is influenced by that. In the first story, where Null introduces the PCs to the prospect of Ascension it is laid out: you will cease to be human. That said, while I want to encourage character development, and have tragic designs for all of your characters, I am not looking for anything as extreme as a Vampire falling prey to the Beast.

... just because Diego is complaining IC about Iona's naivety doesn't mean that she really is. It seems to me that the IC complaining has lead to an OOC opinion that it's true.

I assure you that no character's opinion or complaint has had an impact on my opinions as a Storyteller. That said, Diego is effectively the group leader. IC, what he says to Null has weight. No one has challenged him and people have only supported his leadership. So when he and Peter both complained to Null about Iona for over a month, it means something. Now Iona is caught on camera using her Powers in a mission that went FUBAR, after Null expressly said to prevent Stronghold from learning about your abilities. Diego has, very tactically, thrown Iona under the bus at every opportunity during his debriefing. Iona is in trouble IC for justifiable reasons. I hope you can realize this is not me dogpiling woes on your character arbitrarily.

You yourself referred to Iona as ignorant and naive in your previous OOC post. I reused your own phrasing. Though inexperienced (in relation to the assignments undertaken) may be a better choice of word than ignorant when spoke broadly. My basis for supporting your statement is built on a pattern of behavior. Levi got your first base compromised. Levi's actions lead to Hitori devouring children, and tarnishing your chances of developing a good relationship with the First Generation. Levi barged into Dr. Sokolov's private facilities to demand he do what Levi wanted and got himself turned into Iona. Iona's actions in the recent mission have already been covered.

She is a flawed character, and that is ok. Iona/Levi got away with some things in the past and has been given time to adapt. They have not done so in key areas. That coupled with Diego not holding back on his report of Iona's faults, during a critical failure in a mission with public exposure, means it is going to hit her harder than you are use to.

I do find it quite odd that Carman impulsively shot the pustule that ended up destroying our best escape route (one that would have allowed us to bypass the entire catastrophic fight scene); and no one has said a word about her "ignorance" or "naivety". Heck, Dr. Sokolov even defended her, which I thought was utterly ridiculous. But that is spilled milk under the bridge.

In the recent scene, Iona was being reprimanded. Dr. Sokolov was holding up Carman as an example of decisiveness, and Iona was looking down on her. In this scene, it doesn't matter what Carman did wrong. Iona is the focus. Deflecting to Carman is a distraction. It is Iona's lack of decisiveness in stopping Carman and her "softness" when dealing with noncombatants such as the sickly old man that Dr. Sokolov is bringing attention to.

To be up front with you, I did not expect Iona to follow Dr. Sokolov's instructions. It is OK that she did not. I'm not expecting Iona to become a brute force sociopath. The scene wasn't about Iona torturing people for no reason. Dr. Sokolov is employing mental torture and emotional manipulation to mess with her heard. Dr. Sokolov is trying to desensitize her and dull her compassion with shock. He is trying to show her that she needs to be decisive and act with purpose. He is trying to show her that saving innocents is not always the right answer and may in fact make things worse. As it did in the recent mission. There is also the message: Iona cannot see things as broadly as Dr. Sokolov, and must trust his judgement. So when he says do this horrible thing ... she should expect there is a good reason. Even if he does not expressly give her one.

Dr. Sokolov is the evil mentor. He is Darth Sidious pretending to be nice and supportive. He is not a nice guy though. He may, in fact, be worse than Null. You just haven't seen that side of him until now.

I am going to apply pressure to your characters. I want to ensure that they have to struggle with maintaining their humanity. I want to chip away at it. That said, Iona is a bad person already. I acknowledge this. Sometimes it is easy to overlook, because you do such a good job playing up her more positive personality traits. In the end, I am not going to dictate how your character develops. But I will remind you of the themes this story is built on and encourage you to use events in the game to steer that development.

Going forward, if the PCs ever want to break away from Null, Dr. Sokolov, or the Cause... that is an option. I have purposefully been trying to make Null and Dr. Sokolov look less appealing on occasion to give you justification and some degree of incentive for a future break away. Right now, however, it would end badly very quickly. As for siding with Stronghold, I am uninterested in telling a story from their perspective.

[mrdent12]

Is it even possible for Diego and Peter to break from Null without instantly being killed? Everything, Diego's seen has indicated Null can turn their powers on/off on a whim making them effectively on the control chip/collar trope. Get too far out of line and the master pushes a button to blow their heads off type thing. I grant, they haven't really tested it. Iona, being a creation body wise of Sokolov, might have a similar control mechanism as the Ascendants.

Part of the appeal of this game to me is that actions have consequences and character changes means something. I wont say growth as there is plenty of regressions as well. A lot of pbp games have the PCs actions and view shifts glossed over leading to stagnation and same old thing after a while.

[Supernaturalist]

I'll continue to play Iona through the scene as best as possible. We'll see where it goes.

I'll try to finish Steiner's background today and get it posted by this evening. It may be late because I'll be out of the house this afternoon for quite awhile.

[Supernaturalist]

MrDent offered some ideas: John could have been a mercenary, his career in the US Army behind him. He could have been an infiltrator like Diego. He could have been part of Imperator's invading forces along with Hitori. He could have been living in Hadron City when Imperator invaded and was a citizen there for the last 20 years. This doesn't exclude him from joining Imperator's forces.

I like this idea the best. This allows him to avoid the defector complication that would immediately drive a wedge between himself and leadership.

[Supernaturalist]

On Steiner, I moved his weapons into the Arsenal Array. This freed up a couple of points that I put into the Skill Vehicles: Military Vehicles. It may come to pass that at some point we can steal (even if temporarily) some kind of Stronghold vehicle. The bio will hopefully be added tonight.

[mrdent12]

To move things along so Iona and and Diego meet up after the time jump, I am fine just saying Diego took care of base duties and some local area mingling to get what info he could. He could at least blend and ask around the homeless passing through discreetly.

[Sakuro]

Is it even possible for Diego and Peter to break from Null without instantly being killed?

From what they have experienced, that is a justifiable concern. The same for Iona. That is what I meant by ending badly, very quickly. You would have to find a way around the hold your patrons have on you.

To start with, you need much better (advanced/plot device) equipment to get an accurate accounting of yourselves. Or to dig up that information if documentation exists.

Breaking away would be a multi-stage, long term, endeavor. You'd also have to keep your patrons from realizing what you are attempting.

MrDent offered some ideas: John could have been a mercenary, his career in the US Army behind him. He could have been an infiltrator like Diego. He could have been part of Imperator's invading forces along with Hitori. He could have been living in Hadron City when Imperator invaded and was a citizen there for the last 20 years. This doesn't exclude him from joining Imperator's forces.

I like this idea the best. This allows him to avoid the defector complication that would immediately drive a wedge between himself and leadership.

There are four different ideas mentioned. I'm not sure which one you are referring to.

She will now spend more time analyzing her own composition and functions. She would -in time - like to understand how to heal and repair herself. Any free time will be spent focusing on that research.

How does Iona intend to study herself? Does she take a knife to her arm and cut herself open to see what is inside?

[mrdent12]

Getting every detail of the base reports and such would be a bit much for me to track and if they are anything like real briefings alot of posturing, so is it safe to assume if something he was told is pertinent to a situation it will be brought up?

[Sakuro]

The briefings were a narrative justification for Diego not getting much done. The meeting with Dr. Applegate is the only item of import that has been brought up. I may decide to use this as a means of providing you with information later, yes.

[mrdent12]

Ok, thanks.

[Supernaturalist]

Guys,

I just got back home. I'm pretty tired. I'll get Steiner's bio up in the morning as well as a post for Iona.

-S

[Supernaturalist]

Ok, I put up a bio as well as motivations and a complication for Warrant Officer Steiner. Just let me know if everything is kosher.

[mrdent12]

His background and complications are cool. So did he join up with Imperator after the barrier went down?