What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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NoOneofConsequence
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

Ares wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:09 pm Even though I know the age gap isn't supposed to be that big, the Bruce/Barbara pairing creeps me out as much as a potential Barbara/Tim pairing.
I've long felt that trying to force a Bruce/Barbara thing was the one major misstep the 90s animated series and Batman Beyond made.

And then the adaption of The Killing Joke came along and said "hold my beer."
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

NoOneofConsequence wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:26 pm
Ares wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:09 pm Even though I know the age gap isn't supposed to be that big, the Bruce/Barbara pairing creeps me out as much as a potential Barbara/Tim pairing.
I've long felt that trying to force a Bruce/Barbara thing was the one major misstep the 90s animated series and Batman Beyond made.

And then the adaption of The Killing Joke came along and said "hold my beer."
Good Lord that was awful. In a story where Barbara was already mostly used as a way to torment her father instead of being a character in her own right, the Killing Joke animated movie gave Barbara more screen time, made her connection to Batman stronger . . . all so that the focus could be shifted to how much her injury affected BATMAN instead of her father or herself.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

Bruce/Babs just doesn’t make sense, even if you accept that the age gap between them is only “about ten years.” The two just do not seem to have any romantic chemistry at all... even when good writers try to make it happen. It just... doesn’t.

I liked the Ted Kord and Barbara relationship and if the writers had decided to make it progress beyond flirtation to a real relationship, I probably could have gotten behind it. But from a Doylist perspective, it would have meant either bringing Oracle out of the “Bat Books” or bringing Blue Beetle into the “Bat Books,” neither of which really seems like a good option.

I’ve never done any sort of scientific study on it, but I suspect that the Dick/Kori and Dick/Babs ship to ship combat largely comes down to people who were “Titans Fans” and “Bat Fans.” Like, you can be a fan of both, but ultimately you’ll still like one of them more than the other... and that will color your perception.

(But, hey, I’m one of the thirteen people on the planet that thought the Bruce/Diana ‘ship worked... So what do I know?)
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

Ares wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:35 pm
NoOneofConsequence wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:26 pm
Ares wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:09 pm Even though I know the age gap isn't supposed to be that big, the Bruce/Barbara pairing creeps me out as much as a potential Barbara/Tim pairing.
I've long felt that trying to force a Bruce/Barbara thing was the one major misstep the 90s animated series and Batman Beyond made.

And then the adaption of The Killing Joke came along and said "hold my beer."
Good Lord that was awful. In a story where Barbara was already mostly used as a way to torment her father instead of being a character in her own right, the Killing Joke animated movie gave Barbara more screen time, made her connection to Batman stronger . . . all so that the focus could be shifted to how much her injury affected BATMAN instead of her father or herself.
Perhaps surprisingly, I haven’t watched the animated adaptation yet... and I’m not sure I want to.

I think that ‘The Killing Joke’ is a great comic, but I’ve always been annoyed that reprints of it never include a reprint of Batgirl Special (Vol. 1) #1 that proceeded it by a few months and includes the story where Barbara decides to retire the Batgirl mantle on her own terms.

‘The Killing Joke’ is a story about the Batman, with James Gordon and the Joker in the main supporting roles. That’s fine. It’s the Batman’s name on the cover. It’s his book. Narratively, the treatment of Barbara is fine... She’s the victim, yes, but detective mysteries have to have a criminal victim and the “Bat Books” are all detective mysteries at their core. Babs role in the story only feels like she’s “getting fridged” if you know of her dual identity as Batgirl (which isn’t in any way part of the text). But if you have read her retirement story beforehand, the tone changes...

But they NEVER seem to reprint that story. Very annoying.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by MacynSnow »

Batgirl III wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:14 pm Bruce/Babs just doesn’t make sense, even if you accept that the age gap between them is only “about ten years.” The two just do not seem to have any romantic chemistry at all... even when good writers try to make it happen. It just... doesn’t.

I liked the Ted Kord and Barbara relationship and if the writers had decided to make it progress beyond flirtation to a real relationship, I probably could have gotten behind it. But from a Doylist perspective, it would have meant either bringing Oracle out of the “Bat Books” or bringing Blue Beetle into the “Bat Books,” neither of which really seems like a good option.

I’ve never done any sort of scientific study on it, but I suspect that the Dick/Kori and Dick/Babs ship to ship combat largely comes down to people who were “Titans Fans” and “Bat Fans.” Like, you can be a fan of both, but ultimately you’ll still like one of them more than the other... and that will color your perception.

(But, hey, I’m one of the thirteen people on the planet that thought the Bruce/Diana ‘ship worked... So what do I know?)
I too think Ted/Babs COULD'VE gone somewhere, but i can see why they didn't follow up on it(it would've showed that Kord was a better Hero than BAT-GOD Bruce at the time and God's forbid they showed up bruce any....:roll:).

I happen to've done a Scientific study myself on the weird Dick/Kori/Babs triangle and your right, it does really come down to "Robin"-vs-"Nightwing" fans.It's funny, but those in favor of Dick/Babs remember him more as Robin than Nightwing(as that version of Dick was debuted as part of the EPIC Titans storyline The Judas Contract) and vice-versa.

And i honestly perfer Bruce/Diana myself(it grow's him more as a person imho), so your not alone..... :D
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Shock »

I'm not sure there's anyone that could take Bruce in the long run. At least in any take on him since the 70s. He's never going to dedicate himself to a relationship. The lucky woman could never be higher than 3rd or 4th in his priorities. I think the best one could hope for is a loving partnership in his war.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Batgirl III wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:14 pm I liked the Ted Kord and Barbara relationship and if the writers had decided to make it progress beyond flirtation to a real relationship, I probably could have gotten behind it. But from a Doylist perspective, it would have meant either bringing Oracle out of the “Bat Books” or bringing Blue Beetle into the “Bat Books,” neither of which really seems like a good option.

I’ve never done any sort of scientific study on it, but I suspect that the Dick/Kori and Dick/Babs ship to ship combat largely comes down to people who were “Titans Fans” and “Bat Fans.” Like, you can be a fan of both, but ultimately you’ll still like one of them more than the other... and that will color your perception.
I don't really see myself as more of a Titan or a Bat fan. I think a lot of reason my favoring Dick and Kory over Dick and Barbara is that, well, for me it seemed like Dick and Barbara engaged in some light flirting at best, with a teased relationship rather than any kind of official one. Yes, there was a scene where Batgirl kissed Dick, but from what I remember that was more of a "teach him a lesson" kind of thing, similar to Supergirl throwing herself at Captain Marvel to get Mary to stop doing it to Superman. There was a cover of Dick and Barbara with her in a wedding dress, but we've also seen issues where Uncle Dudley was being forced to marry Aunt Minerva, and they obviously didn't get married in the book.

To me, it seemed like Dick and Barbara had some occasional flirting, with a slight squick factor given Robin was under 18 for a lot of it and she was already in her mid-20s. But people only seem to care when it's the woman who is underage. Regardless, it seemed like something that was teased at but never really followed through on.

When Dick was bounced from the Bat books to give Jason Todd a shot at being Robin and was snatched up by the Titans, it seemed like there Dick really came into his own. He got a new identity, he gained a life and friends outside of the Bat books, and he got a girlfriend that he was in a serious relationship with. Dick and Kory's romance was a major aspect of the book, and there was no question of whether it was flirting or serious.

What kind of rubs me the wrong way with how they decided to make Dick and Barbara a more serious couple in the 90s was how . . . well, manipulative it felt, at least to me. When Nightwing left the Titans for personal issues, it feels like the Bat Books took the opportunity to step in and "reclaim" their character. Dick had been a part of one of DC's most popular franchises of the 80s after the Bat Editors had let him go in the late 70s to focus on Jason Todd. It has a weird "these people took what we'd discarded and made him super popular so we want him back" feel to it.

So once they brought Dick back to the Bat Books, they did everything they could to distance him from the Titans and solidify his stance as a Bat character (never mind that Batman is both on the Justice League and in his own solo stuff). And one way they did that was by taking his relationship to Barbara and ramping it up to "one true love" status.

Now do not misunderstand: I like Dick Grayson. I like Barbara Gordon. They have a history, and you could make a case that they weren't ready for a relationship when they were younger, but as more mature adults it was time for them to come into their own. I can completely understand why you'd want to pair two of the smartest, most charismatic and sexiest people in DC together. I get it.

BUT.

It felt like to reinforce Dick's position as a Bat character and his relationship with Barbara, they had to undermine his relationship with Kory. Suddenly, Batman is talking about how Dick and Kory were never going to work out. Suddenly Barbara and Dick had a lot of previous relationship history retconned into existence, all of which tended to portray Dick and Kory's relationship in a negative light. Heck, it tended to portray DICK in a negative light for having the gall to date someone other than Barbara. These stories included a scene where Dick was dating Kory, but returned to Gotham for a visit and would have cheated on Kory with Barbara if Barbara hadn't stopped him. And a scene of Barbara showing up to Dick's place unannounced and finding Kory there and leaving in tears while Kory is portrayed as an airhead. And then later they show that Dick DID cheat on Kory with Barbara when he showed up to give her an invite to his wedding.

If it had simply been a case of "well, they dated in Batman: TAS, we've got control of Dick again, lets just spin it as him getting into a relationship with he has some mostly platonic history with", I'd have been fine with it. Hell, it would have made sense for a Dick that was focusing on getting back in touch with his roots as a supporting Bat-Family member to reconnect with the hot, smart, witty red-head he had a teenage crush on to varying degrees now that he was a more mature adult.

But all of the retcons, the suddenly introduced history, the manipulative and often disrespectful feel a lot of it had, it just rubbed me the wrong way.

As for Ted and Barbara, I think tying Ted more into the Bat Books wouldn't have been bad. He wasn't up to much at the time, so having the brilliant inventor/gadgeteer/acrobatic/detective crimefighter work with other crimefighting inventors, gadgeteers, acrobats and detectives would have been a solid fit. My understanding is that they were actually thinking of having Ted and Tim bond with Tim potentially becoming a new Blue Beetle that Ted would mentor.

Sidenote, if I personally had to give Tim a new identity outside of Robin, I'd make him the new Question. It fits him both as a detective and a martial artist, though they could simply give him his own new identity akin to Nightwing. Or heck, keep the red color scheme and make him the new Crimson Avenger, but have him go more with the pulp-style suit, domino mask and cloak/coat look. I could easily see Tim pulling off a Green Hornet-style domino mask and fedora combo.

So yeah, having Ted in the Bat Books wouldn't have been that bad to my mind.

And while I'm at it, having brought it up earlier in the rant, can I say how much I don't like the All New Collectors Edition Superman vs Shazam from the late 70s? It suffers from the same issues as The Clash episode from Justice League Unlimited: neither story is a Superman/Captain Marvel team up story. They're both Superman stories where Captain Marvel makes a main appearance. The story goes out of its way to give Superman all the big moments, to invent weaknesses for Captain Marvel that he never displays before or after the story, to have Mary Marvel fawning all over Superman, and of course, to have Superman win the fight. When Superman and Wonder Woman fought that same year, the two fought to a standstill and the fight ended inconclusively. It's annoying.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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I think you raise valid points, Ares... I think the real problem with both Dickkory and Dickbabs is that, for whatever reason, comic book publishers just never seem to let characters enter into established relationships and stay in those relationships. They want everyone always free to date, but they won’t ever let them settle down. Maybe if the couple is a hero and a “civilian” and they’ve been a couple since the early Silver Age... But that’s really about it.

How many “hero + hero” couples are there? Ollie and Dinah, Scott and Barda, Carter and Shiera, Rogue and Remy, Reed and Sue... There are probably a few others, but I’m hard pressed to think of anyone.

Scott and Jean? Meghan and Brian?

If the writers had been able to make either Dick and Kory or Dick and Babs into a long-term couple – with all the drama that one would expect to happen to a pair of heroes, of course – but a legitimate, long-term, healthy relationship... I think either pairing would have worked.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Batgirl III wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:14 am I think you raise valid points, Ares... I think the real problem with both Dickkory and Dickbabs is that, for whatever reason, comic book publishers just never seem to let characters enter into established relationships and stay in those relationships. They want everyone always free to date, but they won’t ever let them settle down. Maybe if the couple is a hero and a “civilian” and they’ve been a couple since the early Silver Age... But that’s really about it.

How many “hero + hero” couples are there? Ollie and Dinah, Scott and Barda, Carter and Shiera, Rogue and Remy, Reed and Sue... There are probably a few others, but I’m hard pressed to think of anyone.

Scott and Jean? Meghan and Brian?

If the writers had been able to make either Dick and Kory or Dick and Babs into a long-term couple – with all the drama that one would expect to happen to a pair of heroes, of course – but a legitimate, long-term, healthy relationship... I think either pairing would have worked.
I agree completely. Whether it's hero couples like Clint and Bobbi, Wanda and Vision, or hero and civilian pairings like Clark and Lois, Peter and Mary Jane and Barry and Iris, writers can't help but seem to want to mess with things rather than trying to keep the momentum of other writers.

I get it to some extent. Sometimes you see a pairing and you just wonder what the previous writer was thinking. It's understandable, especially if it seems forced or done largely for melodrama.

I think the issue is mainly three-fold:

1) The writer is writing a team book and is just pairing up whatever characters they want because they want relationship shenanigans. This is lazy.

2) The writer is using the hero as a kind of self-insert and instead of sticking with their established relationship, invents a new person to be the hero's new One True Love that just so happens to be the writer's ideal partner.

3) Editorial interference.

All of those issues are really just a symptom of bad writing and editing practices. It gets worse when you get things like Dan DiDio's "No More Marriages" proclamation, which sounds like a declaration of war on love and happiness. Like Jab has mentioned, people getting married is where most of the actual drama comes from. The stakes are higher than ever. It's sad when sitcoms realize this and comic writers don't.

If I was Editor in Chief, I'd make sure if anyone new writer was taking over a previous book and character to have a long chat with them, and if they were going to break up a long-standing relationship, they better have a damn good reason for it.

I'd have been fine with Dick and Barbara as a couple, perhaps even a true couple, if there hadn't been all of the extra behind the scenes manipulation and nastiness, and if they'd really pushed them as being a couple. Instead of them being a couple on the whims of the current writers and the tug of war going on between Barbara and Kory for Dick Grayson.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

Funny thing about Ted Kord being in the Batbooks is that allegedly there was a plan at one point (when he was a supporting cast member in Birds of Prey) that he would fully retire and Tim Drake would become the new Blue Beetle, and Stephanie being the new Robin, but DC wouldn't go through with it for some reason.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

Soap Operas have been showing that “regular people” having long-term relationships, filled with all sorts of dramatic and melodramatic ups and downs, can sustain a narrative for generations of viewers.

Guiding Light debuted in 1937(!) and aired its finale episode in 2009. To quote TV Tropes “If you wanted to experience the entire show from beginning to end, and you could do so on a 24-hours-a-day schedule with no breaks, you would need around eighteen months to get through it all.”

I’m not saying that superhero comics should abandon super heroism, action sequences, crime fighting, and all that. The fundamental appeal of the genre is watching good guys in funny costumes punch bad guys in funny costumes. But there’s no reason you can’t make long term relationships part of the B-Plot.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Ares wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:09 pm Even though I know the age gap isn't supposed to be that big, the Bruce/Barbara pairing creeps me out as much as a potential Barbara/Tim pairing.

Then again, I prefer Dick and Kory and like the Ted Kord/Barbara they had going at one point.
It sort of depends. I never read the comics, I just stuck to the animated series. In the BTAS Batman and Batgirl would have been kinda weird since she was so much younger and it seemed more like the sidekicks would pair off. But at the same time you have Batman Beyond airing where both Bruce and Barbara are much older and it seems like such a natural thing for the two of them to be together.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Jack of Spades »

My first exposure to Barbara was as a Congresswoman while Dick was still a freshman at college and wearing short pants and pixie boots. The age difference there is pretty much permanently lodged in my brain, no matter how many reboots were are. If Barbara and Dinah can't be together, then Barbara and Ted do make a cute couple. I'm not sure Dick and Kory were going to make it for the long haul–they're different in lots of pretty fundamental ways–but I was rooting for them.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Jack of Spades »

Batgirl III wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:14 pm (But, hey, I’m one of the thirteen people on the planet that thought the Bruce/Diana ‘ship worked... So what do I know?)
Now we've found two of us. Though Bruce did absolutely peg what was wrong with it. "Lots of issues."
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

Jack of Spades wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:41 pm
Batgirl III wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:14 pm (But, hey, I’m one of the thirteen people on the planet that thought the Bruce/Diana ‘ship worked... So what do I know?)
Now we've found two of us. Though Bruce did absolutely peg what was wrong with it. "Lots of issues."
But, man, it would have been fun to read stories of the two of them working through those issues.
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