What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

The place to talk about your favorite novels, comic books and web comics.
User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 3626
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

NoOneofConsequence wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:34 am Funny thing about Ted Kord being in the Batbooks is that allegedly there was a plan at one point (when he was a supporting cast member in Birds of Prey) that he would fully retire and Tim Drake would become the new Blue Beetle, and Stephanie being the new Robin, but DC wouldn't go through with it for some reason.
Corporate management wanted Barbara back in the cowl, even as far back as the early 2000’s. A sensible way to have made that work would have been to make Babs into Batwoman, leaving Cassie as Batgirl, and making Ted Kord into the new Oracle.

There was a long B-Plot in all of Ted’s appearances at the time about how his heart condition made active superheroics too dangerous. He’s also one of the DCU’s top tier science guys. So they should have leveraged that... Have Ted design a scientific solution to Barbara’s paralysis and plant himself in the chair.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

I like Ted as Blue Beetle though, having read a lot of his earlier stuff before Giffen turned him into a joke that Jurgens occasionally managed to save him from being. I don't care what Giffen says about the name, Ted as the Blue Beetle was COOL. He's basically Spider-Man who went the Batman route since he didn't have actual powers, but went more in on the advanced technology, including a ship that basically functioned as a full on base.

It's one reason why, even though I like Jaime, I want Ted to continue to be the Blue Beetle. Let Jaime keep the scarab, just make the coloration silver instead of blue and he can be the Silver Scarab instead, since it's unlikely Hector will be using that name anytime soon.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
NoOneofConsequence
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:11 pm
Location: Beyond Thunder River

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

I always figured that the obvious solution to Ted's heart and back issues was the armored version of Blue Beetle from Kingdom Come.
What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)
User avatar
Woodclaw
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:05 pm
Location: Como, Italy

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Woodclaw »

Batgirl III wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:43 pm
Jack of Spades wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:41 pm
Batgirl III wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:14 pm (But, hey, I’m one of the thirteen people on the planet that thought the Bruce/Diana ‘ship worked... So what do I know?)
Now we've found two of us. Though Bruce did absolutely peg what was wrong with it. "Lots of issues."
But, man, it would have been fun to read stories of the two of them working through those issues.
JLA #90 by Joe Kelly and Chris Cross was all about why that relationship might or might not work.
"You're right. Sorry. Holy shit," I breathed, "heckhounds.”

WareHouse W (main build thread for M&M)
User avatar
Jack of Spades
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 pm
Location: Top of the deck
Contact:

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Jack of Spades »

No matter what was done with it, that relationship made more sense than Diana and Clark ever would.
Jack's Deck build threadFantasy Geographic Society campaign web site
MacynSnow
Posts: 5631
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:56 pm

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by MacynSnow »

I can see the wish fullfillment of a Clark/Diana 'ship(character-wise it'd be intresting), but i just don't see it working out between them or her & Bruce, tbh. Mostly it comes down to Morality for them. Diana was raised in a Warrior Culture, where one of the tenant's is "Never leave an Enemy behind you", so she'd have NO problem killing dudes/dudettes like Joker or Luthor(she doesn't because she respects Bruce & Clark,not because she think's their right). It's that type of ruthlessness that would break both 'ships up.Amicably, but still split.
User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 3626
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

I dunno... Although Diana has no qualms about killing when absolutely necessary, she’s demonstrated time and again that she prefers to seek alternative methods of ending a threat whenever possible (and it’s almost always possible for her).

She killed Max Lord as that was the only means to end the threat he posed and the level of threat (a mind controlled Superman) was extreme. She killed Medusa as that was the only way to end the threat she posed and the level of threat was equally dire.

But she’s let Doctor Psycho live, time and again, because while he poses a dire threat (his mind control ability is on par with or superior to Lord’s), she has always been able to stop him without using lethal means.

Cheetah, Giganta, Silver Swan and most of her other mortal enemies aren’t as dire a threat nor as difficult to stop as those. Her many divine foes, well, they’re gods. She can’t kill them.

Like Clark, she’ll kill if necessary. But only after exhausting all the other alternatives. She’ll feel less guilt about it than Clark though.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.
User avatar
Jack of Spades
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 pm
Location: Top of the deck
Contact:

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Jack of Spades »

Yeah, the murderous "but she's from a warrior culture!" Wonder Woman is not the one I know. The Wonder Woman I know sent her greatest enemy to Reformation Island and made her into an ally. Now, she'd totally shackle the Joker to a rock in the middle of the ocean surrounded by megaldons until he learned the error of his ways, and tie Luthor up with the lasso and put him in front of a news camera until he brought down his own empire.

Superman saves the innocent. Batman gets the bad guy. Wonder Woman makes people better.
Jack's Deck build threadFantasy Geographic Society campaign web site
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

Yeah, people seem to have focused on "The Amazons as Warriors", forgetting Diana's whole reason for leaving the island was to spread the Amazon philosophy of "Love and Peace". This wasn't helped when Geoff Johns and Zack Snyder decided Diana should start going around with a sword and shield, further emphasizing her as a warrior willing to use lethal force, rather than someone who holds life as valuable, but is just a little more willing to kill than Batman or Superman.

My take on the Amazons is that they don't actually like war or fighting. They've been isolated from the world for centuries, if not millennia, and the only people they've had to make war with is each other. Rather, I'd say that the Amazons have become a culture about COMPETITION. When they fight with each other, it's friendly sparring to determine who is better, to improve themselves, for the thrill of the contest, etc. While each and every one of them is able to fight, they are not a warrior culture, they are a society of people who can serve as elite warriors should the situation demand it.

That's been a frustrating aspect of a lot of modern writers when it comes to the Amazons. This is a culture of immortal women with time and energy to BURN and yet most portrayals have the Amazons as still basically being locked to Ancient Greece levels of technology. The VERY. FIRST. ISSUE. of Wonder Woman back in 1942 showed the Amazons as having advanced technology, including the Purple Ray that healed Steve, telepathic headbands, etc.

I've got my problems with Wakanda and Paradise Island. Both of them tend to be written like literal utopias that feel the need to preach to the rest of the world about the evils it has, which always struck me as incredibly hypocritical. It's easy to develop a society when you're completely isolated from the rest of the world, do not have to share resources, have no natural enemies, have access to ridiculously unique resources (magic, Vibranium, immortality, etc.), while also having no trade, no immigration, and do nothing to actually help the outside world. So the idea that these nations are some kind of ideal to strive for or have any right talking down to the rest of the world comes off as both tone deaf and hollow.

That said, Paradise Island should absolutely be more like Wakanda in terms of technological development. The Amazons should be a society that prizes physical and mental excellence, and them having a unique kind of magical technology while having a kind of fantastical Greeco-Roman architecture would be a lot better than some slightly superhuman women who have been stuck in cultural stasis for thousands of years.

So yeah, to me, the people that focus on the idea that Diana is from a warrior culture are taking away entirely the wrong thing from the Wonder Woman mythos.

Also, bring back the damn battle kangaroos.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 3626
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

The Amazon’s main patron deity is Athena. Now, comic book Athena is different from Greco-Roman Athena (and even there, Athena’s “characterization” changed depending on where and when you were in Antiquity), but it’s a general truism that Athena was a goddess of war, but it was “war as a sad necessity” and “wars should be won by intelligent strategy and clever tactics.”

I think the sword and shield is cool. But I’ve long resigned myself to the suspension of disbelief that a superhero can use lethal weapons in a non-lethal manner just... because. Green Arrow and Hawkeye should have body counts to rival the Punisher, if you think about it too hard, but they don’t. Just... because.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

I understand that comic heroes have been using lethal weapons in non-lethal ways for the better part of a century now. Shining Knight, Black Knight, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, they tend to get by with things like "using the flat of the blade" or "trick shots that pin bad guys to walls" or "trick arrows with non-lethal heads" and so forth. I mean, Ollie and Clint tend to use things like Net Arrows and Boxing Glove arrows compared to just pointy arrow heads. At least against living targets.

With Diana, the sword and shield just feel weird to me after decades of her not having it. It feels like it "weakens" her in a way Thor having a hammer never did since Thor had said hammer from the start, but always showed he was nearly a match for the Hulk strength wise. Compared to Diana, who's been weaponless aside from her bracelets, lasso and occasionally her tiara for years now. Her fighting style at its best was like a higher end version of Spider-Man and Captain America: very acrobatic, fast, fluid and using the lasso for "webbing" style stunts.

A shield should be useless because her bracelets afford her superior protection owing to their superior durability, the fact that she has the speed, reflexes and hand/eye coordination to deflect pretty much anything, and the bracelets have the ability to reflect attacks however she wants. Heck, the bracelets are superior because Diana can choose exactly where the projectiles she deflects go, rather than a shield which just has them bounce off every which way.

While a sword could be useful to her, it would have to have some pretty epic backstory to it. Otherwise all it exists to do is to showcase that Diana doesn't have the strength, skill and gear to take down the current threat, either with the sword allowing her to win, or for the sword to get broken by said threat to emphasize its danger. Either way, it has the odd effect of making Diana look weaker and less capable after roughly 80 years of winning through a combination of smarts, physical capabilities, hand-to-hand combat and her standard gear.

Again, I realize I'm in the minority, but seeing Diana with a sword after all this time to me would be like if Spider-Man added a gun or a sword to his standard gear.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 3626
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

I always preferred when the sword and shield were used sparingly, like for the occasional worldwide war against an invading alien horde or the climatic final fight against a monstrous foe at the end of a story arc.

It was like seeing Tony bring out an alternate, specialized Iron Man suit, like the Hulkbuster. It was a way of signaling “Things Have Gotten Dire” without having to spell it out in so many words. Wonder Woman can defeat nearly any foe with nothing but her bare hands, bracelets, golden lariat, and occasionally throwing a bus at them... But when an mind-controlled Aquaman releases the Kraken to destroy Honolulu, she needs to bust out the shield and sword.

It used to be a special occasion, reserved for major events... But now that every single freakin’ storyline has to be a secret crisis of infinite wars? Ugh.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.
MacynSnow
Posts: 5631
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:56 pm

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by MacynSnow »

...Wowser's! I got all THIS from a throw away comment 'bout the Clark/Diana/Bruce debate.... :shock:
Last edited by MacynSnow on Tue Apr 20, 2021 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Bladewind
Posts: 3234
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:26 pm

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Bladewind »

Ares wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:28 pm
With Diana, the sword and shield just feel weird to me after decades of her not having it. It feels like it "weakens" her in a way Thor having a hammer never did since Thor had said hammer from the start, but always showed he was nearly a match for the Hulk strength wise. Compared to Diana, who's been weaponless aside from her bracelets, lasso and occasionally her tiara for years now. Her fighting style at its best was like a higher end version of Spider-Man and Captain America: very acrobatic, fast, fluid and using the lasso for "webbing" style stunts.

....

Again, I realize I'm in the minority, but seeing Diana with a sword after all this time to me would be like if Spider-Man added a gun or a sword to his standard gear.
I agree totally. One of the most badass and iconic images that sets Wonder Woman apart from everyone else (to me at least) was from George Perez's sting on WW... during Challenge of the Gods when she fights the minotaur and it has her up in the air. She doesn't back flip, she doesn't squirm. She FLIES to piledrive into the ground.

I remember seeing that and staring at it with wide eyes... visually well drawn and the idea of using flight offensively (and not just to turn herself into a battering ram...)
Thorpocalypse wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:01 pm Building to be comics "accurate" is different than building to run a PC or building something to challenge a group.
Bladewind's 3ed M&M Builds
The Merge Setting document
NoOneofConsequence
Posts: 228
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2020 7:11 pm
Location: Beyond Thunder River

Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

I also miss the Amazons having super tech, especially the idea that they had alien space kangaroos.

In his book Cryptonomicon, Neil Stephenson had one character make an argument that, as the goddess of wisdom and crafts, Athena is actually the goddess of technology. She was at various times credited with inventing the yoke and horse bit & bridle, the plow, weaving and pottery, the chariot and ship, the wagon, mathematics, architecture, and cooking, as well as introducing the domesticated/cultivated olive tree. Essentially the most basic aspects of Bronze Age civilization.

Really there should be a group on Paradise Island devoted to her who are constantly tinkering with various gadgets, inventions and supertech, including the invisible jet, the purple healing ray and the like. The same way there should be cliques based around Demeter, Hestia, the Muses, Hera, Iris and so forth. At least that's how I would write them.
What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)
Post Reply