What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Shock
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Shock »

Then they should be embracing digital distribution even more than they already have. Every industry that hasn't is dead or dying.
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Ares
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Digital could be part of the solution, but it isn't the only solution.

Most traditional comic fans like having physical copies of books. Digital could be a way to entice new readers and to make things convenient for older ones, but they'd have to do the Shonen Jump model where every company would offer their entire backlog of comics for a low monthly fee. It could certainly be an extra shot in the arm money wise, but it wouldn't solve their problems, and it wouldn't help local stores that the industry has depended on for the last several decades.

To my mind, to really save itself, the industry has to do some, if not all, of the following:

Multiple Distributors: Marvel really screwed this up back in the 90s, trying to take over as the sole comics distributor in America. Unfortunately, all they did was give Diamond a monopoly on distribution. DC is apparently trying to come up with a different distribution method, but Diamond's actions during the crisis show the weakness in relying on just one person to handle all of this. There's no competition, which means no competitive prices, which means they can charge what they want and both the companies and the stores suffer for it.


Cheaper Books / More Content: Comics today sell less than half of what they used to at more than double the cost, often with less of a page count. In short, the only reason the industry had even somewhat healthy numbers was that less people were buying less product at dramatically increased prices. That needs to stop. Comics need to go back to having more content per issue to justify the cost, and the cost needs to be lowered to reflect that content. Traditional floppy comics should be about 2 bucks or so, maybe 3. If you want more, you need more content to justify the price.


The End of Predatory Practices : Current comic companies, Marvel especially, engage in a lot of predatory practices to sell books. When DC was trying to cut back on their books and focus on more successful lines, Marvel decided to flood the shelves with, frankly, unsellable crap. They would engage in constant cover gimmicks, and mandate that you needed to order X amount of a book before you could order the variant covers, essentially ensuring a minimum sale on popular books. And then they could overship you books and force you to pay the cost anyway. The constant re-launches of failing books with #1 issues to drive up the prices, crossover events that are less about a good story and just being a quick cash grab, the list goes on and on. Those practices and more just need to stop. Let the stores buy what they want without that kind of price gouging.


Returnability and Responsibility: Comics sales do not actually track comics sold, but comics ordered. And those numbers are often fudged due to the aforementioned Predatory Practices. Those practices need to be removed and there needs to just be an honest way to track what is and isn't selling. One method of doing that is Returnability. There's a practice with magazines that whatever doesn't sell that month, the seller rips the covers off and returns the magazines to the publisher to showcase what didn't sell, and they get some of their money back from the publisher.

Comics are different since people actually want to buy back issues of comics, but currently there is no returnability for most comic companies. If comic shop owners were allowed to return a portion of books that didn't sell, putting some in the back issue bins but returning the rest, it would allow more accurate price tracking. Companies could examine what was ordered versus what was returned to get a true idea of what is and isn't selling, they can cancel or promote books based on this model, see what is and isn't working, and adjust their practices accordingly. Shop owners no longer have to eat cost on books they can't sell, instead keeping only what they want.

This would likely lead to better hiring practices within the industry, as merit would be the major defining quality of a book's success. You'd no longer see something where the consistently lowest selling writer in American comics gets multiple book deals and TV show offers due to factors beyond their writing skill. If someone creates a crap book that doesn't sell, then that writer doesn't get rewarded for it. People with actual talent and a proven track record of success get multiple books, and people with low talent/experience but potential get put on other projects to develop their skills.


Back in Public Spaces: Dan DiDio lamented that the books in Wal-Mart that were re-prints of classic stories tended to sell better than their modern books. While I think that says more to the quality of the storytelling of then versus now in one sense, I also think that it shows that comics need to get back into public places where new readers can have access to them. Supermarkets, drug stores, even places like Office Space or Best Buy. Any place where bored kids might need something to keep them occupied while mommy or daddy does something. The problem with comics moving solely to stores was that they couldn't become the impulse buy to young kids to get them into the industry as well, forcing the industry to rely largely on older fans and on the very few people that gave the books a try due to the movies.

With returnability, these stores can have comics in their shops at minimum risk to themselves, the general public can be exposed to them, there's an ease of access that many can't have, comic shops get improved sales because of new customers looking for older materials, etc.


Gateway Books: One problem with comics is that it can be hard to get new readers in due to the long history, the messed up continuity, the major events with multiple tie-in books, it can seem impossible to get new people into the industry. So instead, for the above public spaces, each company should create some gateway books to appeal to new readers. Continuity light books that focus on a "best of" take on characters, basically boiling them down to their most iconic qualities that would appeal to the most people. Simple fun that gets to the core of the character, along with some stuff in the back to point them towards older issues, maybe also explain other aspects of the characters involved in the story, sort of like Who's Who / Official Handbook entries. That way the books are introducing new readers to the characters, explaining things about them, and helping new readers overcome hurdles to become regular readers.


Reduced Politics: One thing a segment of comics fans have complained about is the overuse of politics in comics. It's been said that this is a baseless complaint because "everything is political", which frankly, is just not true. There are plenty of apolitical works of fiction out there, and the only people that see politics in them are the people that see politics in everything.

It's true that most creative types will inject their own morality into their works, but here's the thing: morality and politics are two different things. Morality are the values a person has, a belief in what is good and just and what they should do in any situation. It's often a personal choice, a nuanced take on life informed by their life choices and experiences. And morality is often something that leads to conversations, discussions of why people feel the way they do, value the things they do, and frequently come to some sort of understanding unless two people's morality is completely counter to one another.

Politics, conversely, is about control. It's about what people feel you should legally be allowed to do, and the degree of freedom people should have. Someone's morality can inform their politics, but politics are also influenced by many other factors, including personal benefits, influencing others, their own agendas, revenge for perceived slights, etc. People base their politics on public opinion, on being popular, and use their politics to bully others. And in some really terrible cases, people turn their politics into their morality.

Morality is about right and wrong. Politics is about can and can't. Telling someone they shouldn't do something can lead to a conversation. Telling someone they can't do something can often lead to an argument or a fight.

Morality can be nuanced. Politics generally lacks nuance because, by design, it's meant to apply to large numbers of people in the broadest fashions.

Morality can often find middle grounds. Politics, especially in the last 6 or 7 years, is incredibly divisive.

It's especially bad in comics because the only time politics are used well in comics is when there is no clear right or wrong answer. For decades comics would bring up political issues, but generally allow do so by presenting both sides and allowing the reader to make up their own minds. By making the politics front and center, most modern writers opt instead to preach rather than talk, will put the talking points of the other side into the mouths of villains, and frequently will wind up telling half of their potential audience that they are bad people.

Comic writers should be encouraged to focus on morality. On the idea of Superman stopping a teenager from committing suicide. Captain America punching Hitler is only political insofar as it's saying "This hero is American and is defending America from the country that America is currently at war with". If you have to include politics, do so in a way that makes it a discussion rather than a sermon.


Improved Storytelling: Comics have, in my humble opinion, taken kind of a nose dive in terms of quality. I'm not saying every story of the 80s, 90s and early 00's was gold, but they were frequently more engaging, better told, less bloated and the action flowed better. Marvel had a storyline where all of the Nine Realms went to war with each other, something that should have been an incredibly easy sell for me, War of the Gods done right, and I just didn't care about it at all. This one is entirely subjective, but I think we need a better quality of storytelling and art in the industry, one that would hopefully naturally emerge with the above practices. We need more One And Done stories to get new readers in, we need decompressed storytelling to be used where it makes sense, and we need a mix of talking heads, dark stories and lighthearted fun.


Creator Behavior: Social media has done terrible things to comic creators. It's entirely possible that creators always behaved this way, and its simply that social media allows fans more easy access to the creators and let us see them in all their flawed glory. That and the rise of the superstar writer and increased comics politics has lead to some pretty bad creator behavior, which needs to stop.

If a creator is on social media and includes in their social media that they are currently employed by a comic company, then the majority of their social media time should be spent promoting their books and interacting with the fans in a positive way. Family, religious and political takes should be confined to personal social media that is privated and done amongst close friends, rather than use your clout with a comic company to gain internet points. If you're using your status as a comic creator on your social media, then that social media should be used in relation to your work in the industry, and specifically should be used to promote this industry.

This requires being better with interacting with fans. If you encounter a troll, it's fine to block them, but using block bots just ensures that you're cutting off potentially thousands of fans for nothing they've personally done wrong. Be polite, be friendly, and talk mostly about your book, maybe about some personal history in the industry. Use this as a way to build a fanbase rather than as an outlet to disparage fans. Four nasty tweets on Twitter is not a reason to label the comic fandom as a hotbed of toxicity.

For that matter, be supportive of other creators. Getting into online pissing contests with other creators is again just going to lose you potential fans. This is suppose to be a professional industry, they should be giving each other professional courtesy.

Creators need to learn how to accept criticism and learn to differentiate legitimate criticism from trolling. Stop putting the words of your critics into the mouths of villains. You should not be looking to Teen Titans Go! for advice on how to handle criticism. Either accept it as genuine criticism and use it as a way to improve, or ignore it and keep doing what you're doing. If it was just trolling, your own work will speak for itself and you'll continue to do good. If it was legit criticism, well, the sales figures will let you know if you should have listened or not.

Finally, and I've said this before, but creators need to adjust how they see their relationship to the characters they write. People need to stop treating characters as interchangeable and disposable, as a means to get their own views out to the most people, or as a way to put their stamp on the industry. A lot of creators see their time with a character as a way to put their "stamp" on that character. Now they're the person that "Did X to Y" or "Replaced C with Z", they're known for making these large changes to a character regardless of how much sense it makes. They also feel fine twisting a character into a new shape to fit their story rather than telling a story that showcases what makes that character special.

Comic creators should view themselves as custodians of pieces of American folklore, iconic individuals that need to be treated with care and respect, and should be used in a manner akin to my Toybox Theory.


Print on Demand Classics: This is another personal opinion, but in most cases, comic companies have access to digital scans of every comic they've ever made. A fun idea might be to have a print on demand option where fans can order old individual issues to be re-printed and mailed to them. The reprint will have an alteration on the cover and a watermark on the interior margins, as well as new paper quality that makes it clear that this is a re-print. This way people that just want the book can get copies, while the die-hard collectors will still track down original issues because that's what collectors do. Maybe bundle this with the Digital Service so that people have a reason to buy it. They can read the digital copy, decide they like it, order a Print On Demand version that is sent to them, and now they can have a physical copy to read it the old fashioned way.


Anyway, that's my long-winded ramble on what I think the comic industry could do to save itself. I'm not a part of the industry, this is only the musings of a longtime fan that have heard others talk about the industry and developed my own opinions. I could be wrong about any number of things, perhaps about everything, but I feel these steps would go a long way to making the industry actually healthy, as opposed to everyone saying the dying patient is doing just fine.
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RainOnTheSun
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by RainOnTheSun »

Ares wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:10 am Comic writers should be encouraged to focus on morality. On the idea of Superman stopping a teenager from committing suicide. Captain America punching Hitler is only political insofar as it's saying "This hero is American and is defending America from the country that America is currently at war with". If you have to include politics, do so in a way that makes it a discussion rather than a sermon.
Interesting thing here: Captain America Comics #1 was published in March of 1941, before the attack on Pearl Harbor. One could very easily argue that Captain America punching Hitler is saying "This hero is American and is fighting the country that America should be at war with." Pretty darn political!

That is all. Carry on.
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saint_matthew
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by saint_matthew »

Ares wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:54 pmTurns out the comic industry was as unhealthy as some folks were saying.
Who would have thought that years of actively attacking your consumers, while constantly hiring people on the a basis of genetic & ideological traits rather than merit, to create ever decreasing quality product, at an ever increasing price point, as distributed through a single ultimate point of failure in waiting, to an ever more niche collection of retailers, to an aging consumer base, would lead to an unhealthy industry? :lol:
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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RainOnTheSun wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:46 am
Ares wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 2:10 am Comic writers should be encouraged to focus on morality. On the idea of Superman stopping a teenager from committing suicide. Captain America punching Hitler is only political insofar as it's saying "This hero is American and is defending America from the country that America is currently at war with". If you have to include politics, do so in a way that makes it a discussion rather than a sermon.
Interesting thing here: Captain America Comics #1 was published in March of 1941, before the attack on Pearl Harbor. One could very easily argue that Captain America punching Hitler is saying "This hero is American and is fighting the country that America should be at war with." Pretty darn political!

That is all. Carry on.
It's a little less political when it's about the closest analogy to a supervillain the world's ever seen literally trying to take over the world. America was already offering supplies and aid to the Allies in 1940, and the Lend-Lease Bill was put forth to make it easier to give the Allies that aid. As early as late 1940, FDR spelled out to the nation that Hitler was planning to take over the world, ruled out any possibility of negotiations, and called for the USA to become an "arsenal of democracy", which it did by increasing the size of its military and preparing to fight against Germany.

Hitler was recognized world wide as an existential threat to the freedom of everyone who wasn't on his side. Cap punching Hitler is as political as Cap saluting the flag. It's a bit different than Alanna Smith saying "Make no mistake, even if Trump loses, we will remember who supported him", or Ta-Nehisi Coates writes a Captain America storyline where flyover States are hotbeds of Russian collusion.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

saint_matthew wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:51 am
Ares wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:54 pmTurns out the comic industry was as unhealthy as some folks were saying.
Who would have thought that years of actively attacking your consumers, while constantly hiring people on the a basis of genetic & ideological traits rather than merit, to create ever decreasing quality product, at an ever increasing price point, as distributed through a single ultimate point of failure in waiting, to an ever more niche collection of retailers, to an aging consumer base, would lead to an unhealthy industry? :lol:
Go figure.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Davies »

saint_matthew wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:51 am Who would have thought that years of actively attacking your consumers, while constantly hiring people on the a basis of genetic & ideological traits rather than merit,
Of course, since you'd have them hiring on the "merit" of possessing genetic and ideological traits that appeal to you, you probably shouldn't talk. Not that this will stop you from doing so.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

saint_matthew wrote: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:51 am Who would have thought that years of actively attacking your consumers, while constantly hiring people on the a basis of genetic & ideological traits rather than merit,
Davies wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:08 am Of course, since you'd have them hiring on the "merit" of possessing genetic and ideological traits that appeal to you, you probably shouldn't talk. Not that this will stop you from doing so.
Just a reminder, before I potentially have to break out my Mod Voice, of Rule #1 of Echoes is as follows:

1) Respect each other. That is the simplest way to put it. Remember that you're a human being and so are the people you're interacting with on here. Everyone deserves the same respect you yourself desire. The best moderation is self-moderation, so please try to keep things civil. That means:
• No aggressive or passive-aggressive attacks on members here, no matter how indirect or veiled.

And stating that someone would base their hiring practices on genetic traits, ie to have racist or sexist hiring practices, is to imply that person is racist or sexist. And while matthew isn't a saint by any means, I haven't seen any evidence of him being either. So let's just put a pin in this right now and move on.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by saint_matthew »

Davies wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:08 amOf course, since you'd have them hiring on the "merit" of possessing genetic and ideological traits that appeal to you, you probably shouldn't talk.
LOL no. :lol:

The only trait they should be hiring on is demonstrable talent. Beyond that no one cares if they are black, or female, or gay. As long as they have the talent, that's all that matters: I have no idea where you got the idea that anyone was arguing that that the issue is they were hiring the wrong sex, sexuality or skin colour, rather than the issue that they shouldn't be hiring along those lines at all, but that is not the case at all.

Now if you would like to take a second shot at offering up a rebuttal to the point I made about how the industries practices over the last couple of years leading to a unhealthy industry, then I would love to hear your take on it. :D
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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saint_matthew wrote: Wed Apr 22, 2020 10:02 am Now if you would like to take a second shot at offering up a rebuttal to the point I made about how the industries practices over the last couple of years leading to a unhealthy industry, then I would love to hear your take on it. :D
The comic book industry has never been a healthy industry. It has always engaged in unhealthy practices and now it, like all print media, is on its last legs. You are simply complaining about how it is affecting you. And since I'm inclined to view things that affect you negatively with fondness, I'm okay with that.

I last bought comics when I was in my twenties. If the industry dies, it dies. Isn't that how the capitalism you're so enamored of works? Dogs eating dogs?
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Both of you knock it off.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by greycrusader »

We should all be respectful, even-dare I say it-more friendly with each other at this time in history.

The comics industry, like many others, HAS struggled with including diverse creators and characters in the past, and broadening opportunities and the audience is crucial. I do agree content and talent should trump any particular set of traits the artists, writers, or editors may or may not possess.

And I think we would agree that the print industry is in very rough waters, but I think the world is better if comics and other print media DO indeed survive. The world will be much poorer place without them.

All my best.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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greycrusader wrote: Thu Apr 23, 2020 12:18 am We should all be respectful, even-dare I say it-more friendly with each other at this time in history.

The comics industry, like many others, HAS struggled with including diverse creators and characters in the past, and broadening opportunities and the audience is crucial. I do agree content and talent should trump any particular set of traits the artists, writers, or editors may or may not possess.

And I think we would agree that the print industry is in very rough waters, but I think the world is better if comics and other print media DO indeed survive. The world will be much poorer place without them.

All my best.
Agreed completely. Thank you.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by saint_matthew »

A really interesting video from Clownfish TV called "Comic Book Industry Collapse is BEYOND THE GREAT DEPRESSION, Retailer Says."

Really quite an interesting video, can be found here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPUx3yPRMPo
Shock
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Shock »

Comixology has a handful of new issues of DC comics available today. I see Harley Quinn, a couple of Justice Leagues, Lois Lane and Metal men available with new issues.
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