What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Batgirl III
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

Ta-Neshi Coates wrote the comic in question, Captain America (Vol. 9) #28, which includes rather blatant references to Jordan Peterson's two best selling books: '12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos' and 'Beyond Order: 12 More Rules for Life' in a panel featuring a screenshot of the Red Skull's website advertising "Chaos and Order" and "Ten Rules for Life." Peterson is also somewhat famous as a critic of third-wave feminism and radical feminism, that same comic panel has another advert from the Red Skull for something called "The Feminist Trap."

It's pretty blatant. DC Comic's character of "G. Gordon Godfrey" as a stand-in for G. Gordon Liddy was more subtle.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by csyphrett »

Peterson might say that but people covering him are saying he needs to stick to his lane, and most of what he uses as examples are wrong. He's Ben Carson with the pyramids being used as food storage wrong.

Even the Lobster people are like STFU and STFD. lobsters don't have brains, moron.

Personally I don't care because I've never read anything by Coats and the Twelve Rules book I did glance at looked the same as the books by Joel Osteen, Joyce Meir, Reverand Larry Last Name I don't Remember because I kind of just glanced at it since it was sitting right next to the rest of the books at the Wal Mart. So when my son says that a guy is a nazi and is telling women they should stay in the kitchen, I am going to believe him.
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Batgirl III
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

Well, your son is wrong.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

Okay, this debate has all the ear marks of getting heated, and it's starting to dominate the thread. As thread starter, I'm going to ask that it either be sidelined or have the debate continue over in the Debate forum if you wish.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by MacynSnow »

Did anybody but me notice the Weird "Reverse Body-shaming" that DC & Marvel are trying to do lately?
The Not-Starfire's Kid & the Backpacker New Warrior both mgo out of their way to Sandblast how their target look's WITH NO PROVICATION WHATSOEVER(Starkid's was a perfectly average teenage jane at her HS & Backpacker tried it on one of the newer members).
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

MacynSnow wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:13 pm Did anybody but me notice the Weird "Reverse Body-shaming" that DC & Marvel are trying to do lately?
The Not-Starfire's Kid & the Backpacker New Warrior both mgo out of their way to Sandblast how their target look's WITH NO PROVICATION WHATSOEVER(Starkid's was a perfectly average teenage jane at her HS & Backpacker tried it on one of the newer members).
Well, the writer for I'm Not Starfire is an overweight gay woman with black hair, which I'm guessing is the reason why Not Starfire's main character is a short, overweight gay girl who dyes her hair black. It sounds like she's decided to use the book to deal with her own issues, ala Tom King. That's why the child of two of the most physically attractive and well-adjusted people in comics looks like the daughter of the Penguin and is a mess personality wise.

For the New Warriors, each of the characters were designed to appeal to a certain demographic, and Trailblazer was meant to be the Body Positivity character. This wound up backfiring since the people they were appealing to found the characters insulting and the people they weren't appealing to saw it as virtue signaling.

All the New Warriors stuff is doing is making me re-read the original run of the comic, which honestly I appreciate. Meanwhile the I'm Not Starfire stuff just makes me wish the Mar'i Grayson fanart was canon instead. Or at least was getting published.

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"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by MacynSnow »

Ares wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:51 pm Image

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I personally liked how that first NW run turned out.Much as i love my Avengers, Rage just wasn't ready Emotionally for it yet(that's always been my Major Beef with Batson's transformed look: He's too "Adult" to hang w/teen's his own age, but not Mentally prepared to hang w/Adult's). Thrasher's Motive's was kinda Hinky, but the End result was rather positive imho.

As far as Mar'i Grayson goes, SHE's their child, Not the Bizarro girl their trying to shove down out faces. You can't act or be that negative if you live in such a positive environment as that Family would have, so the writer's obviously projecting their OWN issues onto the Character.

Oh, FYI: first image ain't working.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

MacynSnow wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:01 pm (that's always been my Major Beef with Batson's transformed look: He's too "Adult" to hang w/teen's his own age, but not Mentally prepared to hang w/Adult's).
I disagree. I think an issue some people have with Billy is that they think "child/teenager" and immediately think "immature/naïve". I've said it before, but Billy went through something arguably worse than Bruce Wayne. No, Billy didn't watch his parents get murdered before his eyes. He did however still have both of his parents murdered and has his twin sister lost. And then, instead of going home to a billion dollar fortune and taken care of by his loving, faithful father figure of a butler, Billy was taken in by an evil uncle who kept Billy around just long enough to steal Billy's inheritance, and then threw Billy out to fend for himself on the streets. Billy had to survive years on his own, and it was the characteristics he displayed in the years he was on his own that convinced Shazam to give him his powers.

So Billy definitely isn't immature and he definitely isn't naïve. There's no way he could be after the life he's lived. Billy, to me, is someone who has a "timeless" feel to him. People who see him as Billy comment how he's mature for his age or he "has an old soul", while people who view Cap notice how he's still got a lot of youthful enthusiasm and childlike wonder. Around adults, Cap should come off as that guy who is cheerful and sunshine personified, but no one sees anything odd.

Hell, in the era of manchildren (male and female) we have today, Billy as a teenager is over-prepared to hang out with adults. You stick classic Billy in the MCU during Infinity War with the team that fought Thanos on his homeworld, and Billy would be the most mature and responsible person there outside of Dr. Strange.
Oh, FYI: first image ain't working.
How about now?
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by MacynSnow »

You raise some valid point's regarding Billy's "Old Soul in a Young Body" bit. And your right, he IS overprepared to hang with Adult's, but all that doesn't mean he's mentally able to handle some of the things an Adult may have to.

Let's use your Infinity War analogy. Would Billy have Mentally been able to handle having to KILL Thanos? Or to give up and LET the Villian win on practically a Hail Mary plan by Strange? While i agree with you that he comes across as DC's Captain America, he doesn't have all the Life experiences of one his apparent Age should have.

Now don't take this the wrong way Hoss, i'm also a Fan of Batson's.I just think the original creator should've made him look in his Late Teen-Early Twenties, not his Thirties-Fourties. But Hindsight'll get you a Donut at the Future Store, so...

And that first pick is awesomley adorable.....:D
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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MacynSnow wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:40 pm You raise some valid point's regarding Billy's "Old Soul in a Young Body" bit. And your right, he IS overprepared to hang with Adult's, but all that doesn't mean he's mentally able to handle some of the things an Adult may have to.
Why not? In every continuity before Geoff Johns rebooted him as "Nu-Shazam", Billy has had to survive on his own for years. He's had people trying to kill him both as Marvel and as his human self, he's had to scrounge for food to survive, he's had work a normal job to pay his way, etc. He's had to fight demons, dark gods, aliens and supervillains. Billy has seen people die, both innocent and guilty, some who were beyond his ability to save. Outside of still being a virgin, that's not much Billy hasn't done at his age that most other adult superheroes can claim.
Let's use your Infinity War analogy. Would Billy have Mentally been able to handle having to KILL Thanos? Or to give up and LET the Villian win on practically a Hail Mary plan by Strange?


Lets ask the Ultra-Humanite:

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Yep, sure looks that way.

Billy is not a stone cold killer. But unlike Superman and Batman, Billy also doesn't have a code against killing. He values life, he will do everything in his power not to kill, but if all of his own cleverness and the Wisdom of Solomon can't come up with another solution, then yes, he will kill if he has to. The above scene is even worse because he knew that doing what he did would result in Johnny Thunder's death. It hurt Billy to do so, even when Johnny thanked him for freeing him, but Billy did it anyway because it was the only way to de-power the Ultra-Humanite. Thankfully they were able to save Johnny's life, but Billy was still willing to do it.

Now, would Billy have been forced to kill Thanos? Hard to say. Like I said, Billy will kill, but he will explore every other option. And if that team had someone of Billy's power with them, they would have won, so killing Thanos might not have even been necessary.

As for the Hail Mary plan by Strange? Given that was an act of desperation thanks to Star-Lord's screw up, with the Wisdom of Solomon likely telling him it was their only remaining shot at victory, then yes, Billy would have gone along with it. Given some of the adventures he's been a part of, it probably wouldn't be that weird of a plan for him.

So yeah, Billy will kill. He's just a resourceful enough guy that he almost never has to.
While i agree with you that he comes across as DC's Captain America, he doesn't have all the Life experiences of one his apparent Age should have.
I agree. Billy actually has more life experiences crammed into his life than most of the early 30's adults Cap appears to be would have. Most adults were not financially supporting themselves with a regular job in their early teens. Most adults weren't routinely dealing with people trying to murder them. Most adults haven't been homeless or had their parents murdered. Billy Batson has packed an immense amount of suffering and experience into his short life, handled it with courage and maturity, and despite it all, is still a hopeful, friendly, optimistic individual. Which to me is the main reason the Wizard chose him in the first place.
Now don't take this the wrong way Hoss, i'm also a Fan of Batson's.I just think the original creator should've made him look in his Late Teen-Early Twenties, not his Thirties-Fourties. But Hindsight'll get you a Donut at the Future Store, so...
I have my own pet theory as to why Billy becomes an adult when he calls upon his powers. The other members of the Marvel Family have the same powers as Billy, but their Shazam forms tend to simply be their regular forms with, at best, a little extra muscle. If their Shazam form is meant to be their ideal self or heroic form, then what this says is that Mary, Freddy and Adam's ideal form is just themselves, maybe a little buffer.

Billy's ideal form of a hero is an adult rather than just his normal form in a costume and with powers. In some continuities, his Shazam form is based off of his father. To me, this is because Billy's ideal hero isn't himself as he is now, but the person he could one day be, the person he should strive to be. Billy's Captain Marvel form is a low-key reminder to Billy of the responsibilities he has and how he has to be better in order to live up to said responsibilities. It can also be seen as a sign of humility that Billy's idea of a hero isn't who he is now, but who he might be one day.

In short, Captain Marvel is Billy Batson's way of making sure he lives up to the heroic responsibilities Shazam has given him, not realizing that the act of doing so proves why Shazam was right to pick him.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

Let’s also not forget that the “S” in Captain Marvel’s power set stands for the Wisdom of Solomon. He’s not just a magical Kryptonian, he’s been empowered by six mythic figures each known for a single supreme ability and given an ability to match their own. He isn’t fast “like” Mercury, he has the Speed of Mercury; He isn’t strong “like” Hercules, he has the Strength of Hercules... Possessing the Wisdom of Solomon should color all of his social interactions and decision making.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Batgirl III wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:41 pm Let’s also not forget that the “S” in Captain Marvel’s power set stands for the Wisdom of Solomon. He’s not just a magical Kryptonian, he’s been empowered by six mythic figures each known for a single supreme ability and given an ability to match their own. He isn’t fast “like” Mercury, he has the Speed of Mercury; He isn’t strong “like” Hercules, he has the Strength of Hercules... Possessing the Wisdom of Solomon should color all of his social interactions and decision making.
The Wisdom of Solomon is one of those things writers can't seem to agree on. In some cases it does affect Billy's personality, hence why Captain Marvel often appears to be a different person. I personally never liked that take, which as Geoff Johns shows had the Wisdom reveal to Billy how wrong it was to cheat. To me, that undermines the point of having a wise choice for a power wielder, as the Wisdom basically makes the wielder a better person, which should have negated Black Adam's fall from heroism.

My personal take is that the Wisdom is something Billy has to actively call upon, usually with a visual cue like him placing a hand on his chin:

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I also tend to view the Wisdom as something that gives Billy access all of the information he needs to make an informed decision. It can translate the languages of what he's reading and whom he's speaking with. It can tell him the weaknesses of a particular mythological creature, tell him the history of a certain place or object, and help him see through illusions, detect magic or perform rituals. And if he asks, the Wisdom can even offer up several plans, solutions or ideas for his current problem. But all this does is give Billy info to work with. Ultimately, what he does and how he does it is up to him.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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On the subject of Not Starfire, I will admit upfront that I haven’t read the comics and am basing my opinion on second-hand accounts of what the story is like... But it really doesn’t sound like the character of anyone who could have been raised by Koriand’r or Dick Grayson.

As was recently discussed over in my Character Sheet thread, a key part of ensuring you’re writing the Batman correctly and not “Punisher in a funny hat” is if you can picture the character as you’ve written him comforting a frightened child. Empathy with victims of trauma is a keystone to the Batman’s character archetype as well as those of most of the core Batman Family. Bruce’s drive is to ensure no one else ever becomes a victim, Dick’s drive is to ensure victimizers are brought to justice, Jason’s drive is to ensure victimizers are punished, Cassie is driven to prevent victimizers from making more victimizers, Stephanie is driven by empathy with the victimizer, Tim is driven by a desire to keep the people helping the victims from becoming consumed by the darkness they’re exposed too...

I just cannot fathom how the Batman Family would have allowed one of their own to grow-up to be such a self-centered and apathetic (literally apathetic as in lacking pathos) as this Not Sunfire person.

Did I miss something? Like, was she kidnapped by the Khunds or Ra's al Ghul or some other baddie when she was an infant and purposefully raised by supervillains to be a selfish prick? That happened to Cassie (and Damian, because Morrison is a hack)... But, of course, she got over it.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Batgirl III wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:09 pm Did I miss something? Like, was she kidnapped by the Khunds or Ra's al Ghul or some other baddie when she was an infant and purposefully raised by supervillains to be a selfish prick?
Worse. Her mom is a popular, classically attractive heroine that everyone loves. The only way to respond to such an injustice, regardless of the love, attention and care she would have doubtlessly been given, is to be super edgy.

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"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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I know it’s something of a cliche, but you guys all know the Serenity Prayer, right? If not go over to your mum’s house and/or your aunt’s, I’m sure she’ll have it on a throw pillow or a tea mug:
“Wikipedia” wrote: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.
That’s how I think the Wisdom of Solomon (and Courage of Achilles) is most likely to manifest in Billy on a moment by moment basis. He can take a moment to search his memory to recall some bit of arcane lore or analyze a predicament that he finds himself in, probably with his lantern jaw firmly resting on his hand... But on a moment by moment basis, Captain Marvel is going to be the guy (even more so than Superman) who just intuitively knows the most morally correct course of action, how to change things for the better, and how to do what must be done in order to make that change.

The famous story of King Solomon ordering the baby be chopped in half? King Solomon didn’t really want to see the kid harmed, it was a test of the characters of the two feuding women. His insight was that the true mother of the child would feel so compassionate that she’d renounce her maternal claim rather than see the child harmed... and wouldn’t you know it, King Solomon was right! (The Bible would be a much weirder book if he’d been wrong.)

Billy was chosen by Shazam because he already had the inner qualities necessary to bear the magical ones. Billy doesn’t have the Courage “of” Achilles, but he’s courageous... Billy doesn’t have the Wisdom “of” Solomon, but he’s wise.
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