What has Trump done wrong?

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Poodle
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What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Poodle »

I don't like the guy on a personal level but what has he done wrong? Apart from the Education system which was already an enormous clustrf**k he seems like he has done everything that he said he would and that congress would allow.

I don't live in the States though. Maybe you guys see more than me.
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Ken
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Ken »

First thing he did was he got elected, when he was already a public figure. There are some people who are in the public consciousness that doing some things just sounds like the punchline to a bad joke: Mother Theresa posing in Playboy, Superman trying to kill Batman, Pauly Shore winning an Oscar, Donald Trump being President. Some people just can't handle the notion.

Second thing he did was, despite the first thing, he was the direct recipient of Hillary Clinton losing the 2016 election. For example, Trump had fewer votes in Wisconsin (1,405,284) in 2016 than Mitt Romney had in Wisconsin in 2012 (1,407,966). Trump won the state, Romney didn't. It follows than that HRC had a LOT fewer votes in Wisconsin in 2016 than Obama had in 2012 (1,382,536 vs 1,620,985). It was as if the entire city of Madison (pop. 233,209) stayed home because they were pissed that Hillary cheated Bernie.

Thirdly, he's an asshole. This goes back to "not liking him on a personal level". He's a carnival barker reincarnated as a pushy big city real estate tycoon. He's not diplomatic. He's loud. He's a self-promoter. He's the guy who (to paraphrase Sean Connery) will pull a gun if you pull a knife; you put one of his in the hospital, he'll put one of yours in the morgue.

Fourthly, somehow, the candidate in the 2016 election who seemed the most likely to be comfortable in a bar knocking back a few with Joe Sixpack was the billionaire real estate tycoon. But the truth of the matter is, Trump campaigned in the so-called 'Fly-Over States', got in front of Hillary's 'Deplorables', and said "Hey, you still matter. You're still Americans." This, in a culture that is increasingly divided between the City Mice and the Country Mice and people who haven't read Aesop's Fables.

Fifthly, he made the Fourth Estate hate themselves. Trump has been a pop culture figure for decades. And he's a shameless self-promoter. Which made it very easy for the Mainstream Media to play up Trump's candidacy when he was first running. It was ridiculous (see #1), plus every second of airtime they gave Trump was a second they didn't have to give to Ben Carson or Carly Fiorina or Ted Cruz or any other Republican candidate. They helped prop Trump up, right until he won the Republican nomination. And the Mainstream Media knows they did this, and it backfired on them.

Sixthly, he uses Twitter to communicate directly with his constituents. This is a huge Middle Finger to the Press. Or at least to News Corp, Disney, Viacom, Time Warner, CBS, and Comcast (i.e. the 6 corporations that own 90% of American News outlets). By getting his words unfiltered, it makes it harder for News Corp, Disney, Viacom, Time Warner, CBS, and Comcast to spin his words the way they want.

All of which has nothing to do with a booming economy, record unemployment (particularly for minorities), his foreign policies, his deficit spending, or how well he's enforcing the Clinton and Obama-era immigration policies he inherited. It isn't how well he is (or is not) doing the job. That's a little to meritocratic for today's America. It's the fact that he has taken the rule book, set-it afire, and said "who says?"
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by mrdent12 »

I am going to try and make this as cold analytical as I can despite some of my bias that might come through. As it was alluded to by Ken and borne out in the popular vote, America is really two countries in one with some overlap.

There is the city and costal parts, which skew to the more liberal side of the spectrum that are also younger. Data indicates they are more educated academically speaking, for what weight you put on it so take a more global view of things by virtue of being exposed to it via education and their parents trending in the same way. These areas also tend to have a larger population because of higher population densities.

The other America is more rural and tends to have a less liberal education. Mostly, this America is in the "fly over" states where people live on larger plots of land, there is different entertainment than the more populous regions of the country, etc. Their economy is also less white collar work based and more blue collar type jobs that are susceptible to automation and outsourcing. So, naturally the prevailing world view aligns more with the America first type slogan of Trump.

Unlike other countries, a persons vote for president in say California(or more populous states) matters less than North Dakota(or less populated states) because the second voter has more clout in the electoral college. Historically, there is reasons for this and depending on who you talk to this is good or bad. A side effect of this though is that it makes people feel slighted. For example, a Republican in California voting for president doesn't matter. It's a reliably Democratic state every time to the point of Republicans being pretty much locked out of state politics. So, when someone wins the presidency by winning the electoral college yet losing the popular vote by so much, it naturally breeds resentment. Bush escaped this to a degree because of 9/11.

Another sticking point is Trumps tendencies to make outlandish claims and when it causes problems move on to another without apologizing for the initial claim. Twitter enables this because he can always fall back on the excuse he just retweeted it or what it meant was something else completely than what most interpreted it. His base of supporters approve of this as it comes across as him speaking his mind. The people who don't like him see this as a president who can't be taken at his word ever.

Another area which Ken mentioned as well is he is very blunt and aggressive. If he feels slighted he will attack back vs being diplomatic about it and turning the other cheek. To the people who voted against him, this feels like bullying to them. To the people who support him, it is a show of strength. Historically, presidents have been more turn the other cheek and diplomatic in public while privately getting pissed off. Trump airs it out. This is polarizing behaviour. It also doesn't play well on the global scale.

As for the media, it has always been a bias towards one side or the other depending on the network one watches and news one reads. Fox and CNN are two examples of this with Fox being right and CNN being left. It's how they make money, so like any company they need to give their customers what they want. So, as a result each will portray the presidency of a Republican differently similarly to how they portrayed a Democrat as a president.

At the end of the day though, it all comes down to which America elected the current president. In Obamas case, it was the city/coastal America. So, the "fly over" America was up in arms against him. In Trumps case, it was the "fly over" America. So, the city/coastal America is up in arms against him. Its a trend that started as far back as Clinton, possibly farther back, gaining more steam under Bush and finally getting much more accentuated under Obama.
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Ken »

mrdent12 wrote: Tue Aug 27, 2019 4:12 amAt the end of the day though, it all comes down to which America elected the current president. In Obamas case, it was the city/coastal America. So, the "fly over" America was up in arms against him. In Trumps case, it was the "fly over" America. So, the city/coastal America is up in arms against him. Its a trend that started as far back as Clinton, possibly farther back, gaining more steam under Bush and finally getting much more accentuated under Obama.
It goes back even further. However, in the 1940s, the U.S. got caught up with stopping the German National Socialists, and their Axis allies, and then from the 1950s through the 1980s, it was the Soviet Socialists (who supposedly were more globalists than the Nazis, but on a practical level most of the Soviet Republics were put to use to support Russia). Whether it was the "hot" war with the Axis, or the Cold War against the communists (and the "hot" wars in Korea and Viet Nam that were a part of that ideological battle), and then the feeling of Mutually Assured Destruction present during the end of the Cold War, having a perceptible enemy on the outside got the two Americas to play together nicer (with understandable exceptions like the very needed Civil Rights movement).

But the Cold War ended. The USSR collapsed. By the time Clinton was President, our ability to find "the Other" outside or borders was curtailed. So, we started looking at each other as "the Other" again.
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by mrdent12 »

That makes sense. War has a way of uniting a country and the Other is a common theme of societies in general. In America it would be even more pronounced with the idea of rugged individualism vs collective action in other countries. The invention of the internet also helps to further this as now all someone needs to do is make a Youtube video or tweet, where as before people had to get through editors or pay for their own publishing.
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

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There was a poll done by a group called More In Common that came to the conclusion that most people fall under what they call "The Exhausted Majority". Namely, most people are just tired of the constant bickering from the extremists on both sides of the political spectrum. According to them, less than 15% of the country is made up of Liberal Activists and Devoted Conservatives, which includes the Radical/Regressive/Far Left and Right.

Image

Though I disagree with them including Traditional Conservatives in the Wing with Devoted Conservatives. Either way, you basically get a break down of basically 14% are political extremists, 30% are traditional politicians (which I'd consider party moderates these days), and 56% basically are just annoyed by the shouting match going on.

I know I sound like an old person blaming modern technology for the issue, but I do think social media has a big hand in this. Something like 85-90% of all social media posts/tweets/etc. are done by less than 10% of the people on the platform, and those people tend to be folks with a lot of time and extreme views. And the older generation hasn't quite grasped that social media doesn't actively translate into real numbers of people or interest. So as the web seems to show people becoming more extreme, our news media gets more extreme and divided to appeal to those people, which continues to paint the country as more divided than it is.

Basically, we're going through the growing pains of a species developing instant communication. More than anything we need a return to something like journalistic integrity and for people to learn how to differentiate between angry blog posts by people who are essentially extreme online activists and the people who legitimately represent the common person.
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Ares »

As for myself, I'm not a fan of Trump personally. As Ken says, he's an asshole. He comes off as boorish, especially with his tendency to often make snap statements that make him look foolish, or use outdate info such as the whole "video game violence" thing. For all his faults, Obama brought a sense of dignity, intelligence and eloquence to the office.

That said, on some level I appreciate Trump's bluntness and candor, and he's done good things for the economy and employment. And if nothing else, he's revealed a lot of the hypocrisy in the parties. Democrats who were fine with the border policies created by President Clinton and maintained / modified by President Obama are now outraged at Trump, despite his handling of the issue really isn't all that different, and in fact incorporates some suggestions of his predecessors. Even Hillary supported improved border protection and a fence, until Trump started his wall talk.

So I'm not a fan of Trump, I didn't vote for him (didn't vote for Hillary either), but for all of his personal faults (and he's got a laundry list of them) I think the hate he gets is out of proportion to his actual actions. Then again, I tend to think that the loudest, most vocal and visible amount of said hate comes from a relatively small group of people that the majority of the country are exhausted with.
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Poodle »

I guess a question is how would America and the world stage look if Hillary got in. Would there be less rax breaks for the wealthy? I suspect not. Would conditions for black americans be better or worse? Would international relations be better or worse under the democrats?

I think he took too long to declare Antifa a terrorist organisation. I think he frustrates the left because he uses the media better than they do, despute the major media companies being firmly left leaning. I think he could have reduced military spending slightly and put it towards the wall rather than trying to wrestle iit through congress.
I don't like the guy but it is hard to imagine any other candidate being so successful against concerted attacks from the left. He also has made the hypocricies of the PC brigade rise to the surface like a boil. Is he responsible for Antifa? In a way, due simply to the fact that he is the epitome of everything the left despises, business MAN, unapologetic, unafraid, white..
Isn't it odd that no one looks at Bernies 3 houses and questions his dedication to socialism.
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

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Poodle wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:20 pmIsn't it odd that no one looks at Bernies 3 houses and questions his dedication to socialism.
There are some who do question his dedication to socialism because of things like his three houses. But they aren't the people who get listened to. Me, I don't question his dedication to socialism. I just think it's clear where in the socialism hierarchy he pictures himself: i.e. the ruling elite, part of the NEW 0.1%.
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by mrdent12 »

Some of what has happened under Trump has been good I admit such as prison reform, not messing up the good economy he inherited yet, etc. The federal government is a multi trillion dollars machinefor better or worse, so one man changing it's course isn't likely. My issue with Trump isn't that he messed up sometimes. As Ares pointed out, past presidents have as well. What makes me not like Trump is that he lies about stupid things, doubles down when he should pivot, rarely if ever admits fault on himself, and has wrecked long standing alliances that America needs. Despite what he may say, America is only a slice of the world. We can't just bully people.

I know PC gets a bad rap I won't go into, but sometimes it pays to be polite and not a brute. As a congressman, CEO, or something one can be more blunt as the base you need to represent is much smaller and more united. As president, it's your job to represent all of America not just the percentage of America who voted for you. To be clear, I think all presidents to a degree have pandered to their base. It's a side effect of the primary system. Trump takes it to a whole new level for me though that is just unacceptable.
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Poodle »

Respectfully I disagree. Trump hasn't pandered to a particular base despite being accused multiple times of doing so. Yes he is boorish and crass, that is his brand.

He also has more diplomatic successes than previous presidents. As for inheriting a good economy, Barack Obama seemed to create huge ammounts of debt with little to show for it, not low unemployment, not a strong stockmarket... [shrugs] just saying.
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

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My hobest opinion would be that I truly despised the man during the election season, and was definitely completely in the grips of propoganda at the time. Since then my view on him as actually mellowed significantly to where sometimes I actually find him hilarious to watch, but otherwise he's just snother political figure to me. I would've wished for a more naturally charismatic president, but I don't find myself in abject disapproval. I like some things he's accomplished, dislike others. Overall though, I prefer him over canidates like Hilary, and I don't see anyone else with a strong standing in the field that I can endorse any more strongly then him.

We could definitely have done better, but we much more easily could've had worse. We'll see what things look like by the time 2020 rolls around, if my opinions change.
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

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I am not going to touch the economy argument you mentioned right now in the U.S other than to say the factual under Trumps watch all classical indicators have continued to go up for the most part until lately. More than than gets into a whole other discussion.

In terms of alternatives to Trump vs Clinton, that was a battle of who was the least disliked. Trump won that one by playing the electoral college. Where I live, my vote wouldn't have mattered anyway, so I didn't bother to vote. This current election cycle, I am still undecided. Trying to persuade some of Trumps most ardent supporters against him is a futile exercise I don't even waste time on. Same with supporters of other candidates as well. Just like last election though, once the parties decide their candidates my vote won't matter either way.
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Doctor Malsyn »

I'd really like to see independent parties gather more traction, the field is being way to clogged up by a two-party system. America needs more choices so we can pick the best of a group, not the lesser of two evils
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by mrdent12 »

California scrapped the whole party based primary mechanics making it effectively everyone runs(some being supported by the party others just saying they belong to party X) with the top two running against each other. It's had mixed results.
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