Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

"Thunderbolt" Ross/Red Hulk

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

"THUNDERBOLT" ROSS (General Thaddeus "Thunderbolt" Ross, aka The Red Hulk)
Created By:
Stan Lee & Jack Kirby (Ross)
First Appearance: The Incredible Hulk #1 (May 1962)
Role: The Rival (to The Hulk)
Group Affiliations: The Hulkbusters, The U.S. Army, The Avengers (?)
Avengers Grade: D-Level (just kinda joined)
PL 8 (76)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 4 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Deception 5 (+8)
Expertise (Military) 10 (+12)
Insight 3 (+5)
Intimidation 3 (+6)
Investigation 3 (+5)
Perception 5 (+7)
Technology 4 (+6)
Vehicles 3 (+5)

Advantages: 
Benefit 2 (General), Equipment 3 (Guns), Improved Critical (Guns), Ranged Attack 8

Offense:
Unarmed +4 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Guns +10 (+5 Ranged Damage, DC 20)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +4 (DC 14), Toughness +3, Fortitude +3, Will +8

Complications:
Obsession (Stopping the Hulk)
Enemy (The Hulk, Everyone Else)- During his early stint as the Red Hulk, Ross kicked nearly every powerful hero's ass. Now that his big run is over, except every one of them to come for payback.
Responsibility (Daughter- Betty Banner)
Temper- Ross is easily-enraged, and will not hesitate to attack something he percieves as a threat.

Total: Abilities: 36 / Skills: 36--18 / Advantages: 14 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 8 (76)

-General "Thunderbolt" Ross debuted alongside the Hulk, and has proved to be the longest-running thorn in his side as well. In a character type that also shows up frequently on M*A*S*H and other anti-war shows, he's your typical Ball-Busting Asshole Military Man, showing that the guys in charge are usually rotten bastards, to contrast the innocent, almost saintly men under their command (M*A*S*H used this one a LOT). However, in a typically-Marvel wrinkle (though Breaking Bad did just as funny a thing, defining the main character's Brother-In-Law as an officer with the DEA), he was the father of Bruce Banner's girlfriend Betty. So we had an Overprotective Dad on top of the Jerk-Ass General.

-And Ross was INSANE AS BALLS in the comics. Despite being in the American Military, he allies with super-villains and megalomaniacs like The Leader, M.O.D.O.K. and the Abomination in order to bring down ol' Jade Jaws. Christ, he even shows up at Bruce & Betty's wedding with a gun, shooting Rick Jones. He then temporarily gets merged with Zzzax and gains literal "thunderbolt" powers, even after the merger ends. It's only YEARS later that Ross, after witnessing Rick & Bruce selflessly risk their lives to save Gamma Base that Ross realizes the error in his ways, and he dies in the typically-Marvel way, sacrificing his life to stop the villain.

-However, he is resurrected quickly, as the series kind of REQUIRES his type of character (a representative of "The Man"). The Leader brings him back under his own control, but he soon breaks free and is a bit friendlier to Bruce. That is, until Betty dies of Gamma-poisoning, which turns Ross against Bruce once more.
-Ross is a tolerable General (in the Air Force, it was apparently decided, though don't expect the artist to ever get the uniform right, or the writers to keep it consistent), and pretty good in a scrap, but is way below the level of a Comic Book Soldier-type.

Image

Like I was gonna use another picture.

THE RED HULK (General Thaddeus "Thunderbolt" Ross)
Created By:
Stan Lee & Jack Kirby (Ross), Jeph Loeb & Ed McGuiness (Red Hulk)
First Appearance: The Incredible Hulk #1 (May 1962- Ross), Hulk #1 (vol. 2) (Jan. 2008)
Role: The Villain Sue, The Rival (to The Hulk)
Group Affiliations: The Hulkbusters, The U.S. Army, The Avengers (?)
Avengers Grade: D-Level (just kinda joined)
PL 14 (288)
STRENGTH
16 STAMINA 13 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 4/8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Deception 5 (+8)
Expertise (Military) 10 (+12)
Insight 3 (+5)
Intimidation 5 (+8)
Investigation 3 (+5)
Perception 5 (+7)
Technology 4 (+6)
Vehicles 3 (+5)

Advantages: 
All-Out Attack, Benefit 2 (General), Equipment 6 (Giant Guns), Improved Critical (Guns), Improved Initiative, Ranged Attack 8, Startle

Powers:
"Villain Sue"
Power Lifting 5 (50,000 tons) [5]
Leaping 11 (4 miles) [11]
Protection 2 (Extras: Impervious 13) [15]
Immunity 16 (Heat, Cold, Radiation, Pressure, Poison, Disease, Radiation Effects) [16]
Regeneration 8 (Feats: Regrowth) [9]
"The Hottest One There Is" Heat Aura 8 [32]
Enhanced Fighting 4 [8]
Enhanced Advantages 11: Chokehold, Close Attack 3, Diehard, Extraordinary Effort, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Hold, Power Attack, Withstand Damage (Trade Defenses For Toughness)[11]

"Natural Size" Growth 2 (Str & Sta +2, +2 Mass, +1 Intimidation, -1 Dodge/Parry, -2 Stealth) -- (10 feet) (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) [5]

"Super-Strength Feats"
"Thunderclap" Dazzle Hearing 12 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2) (Flaws: Touch Range, Distracting) (24) -- [29]
  • AE: "Groundstrike" Affliction 12 (Dodge; Hindered/Prone) (Extras: Area- 120ft. Burst +3) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Instant Recovery, Limited to Ground) Linked to Damage 12 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (Flaws: Limited to Objects) (22)
  • AE: "Groundstrike Line" Affliction 12 (Dodge; Hindered/Prone) (Extras: Area- 120ft. Line +3) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Instant Recovery, Limited to Ground) Linked to Damage 10 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (Flaws: Limited to Objects) (22)
  • AE: "Shockwave" Damage 12 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2) (Flaws: Both Grounded) (24)
  • AE: "Super-Breath" Move Object 12 (Extras: Area- 120ft. Cone +2) (Flaws: Limited to One Direction) (24)
  • AE: Penetrating Strength Damage 13 (13)
"The Red Hulk's Rage"
Enhanced Heat Aura 7 (Flaws: Uncontrolled- Must be Angry, Side-Effect- Fatigue) [21]

Equipment:
"Killer Giant Guns" Blast 10 (Extras: Multiattack) (30)

Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+16 Damage, DC 31)
Heat Aura +11 (+8 Damage, DC 25)
Raging Aura +11 (+15 Damage, DC 30)
Assorted Strength Feats +12 Area (+12 Damage/Affliction, DC 22)
Giant Guns +10 (+10 Ranged Damage, DC 25)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +15 (+7 Impervious), Fortitude +15, Will +8

Complications:
Secret (Thunderbolt Ross Identity)
Obsession (Stopping the Hulk)
Enemy (The Hulk, Everyone Else)- During his early stint as the Red Hulk, Ross kicked nearly every powerful hero's ass. Now that his big run is over, except every one of them to come for payback.
Responsibility (Daughter- Betty Banner)
Temper- Ross is easily-enraged, and will not hesitate to attack something he percieves as a threat.

Total: Abilities: 76 / Skills: 38--19 / Advantages: 17 / Powers: 160 / Defenses: 16 (288)

The Red Hulk: The Ultimate Villain Sue:
-And of course here's the Red Hulk- the villain that exploded onto the scene and sent a bunch of nerds into a tizzie. Well really, the whole thing (invented by Joe Quesada at a meeting) was kinda amusing to watch, as I cared little about the Hulk-verse, but I find huge attempts at Mary Sues funny, so long as they only embarrass characters I don't care about. Essentially, the Red Hulk comes across as Jeph Loeb getting his jollies off by writing a power-fantasy character to run amok on the Marvel U, and kicking everyone's ass. He went through She-Hulk, Iron Man, The Hulk, a Wendigo, THOR, and then took the Silver Surfer's Board and went flying around space to kick the Grandmaster or the Watcher's ass or something. Now, comics has always been somewhat subject to immature writers' fantasies (Claremont and his X-Women, Englehart & his Mantis), but this was almost TOO much. It reads literally like a giant bag of bad Fan Fiction- that lowest of all creative industries. Loeb was writing a villain whose sole purpose was to kick ass, and it's both amateurish and embarrassing to read. But also funny. I'm actually happy they created him for this reason.

-And it was "Thunderbolt" Ross this whole time, which is kind of an un-reveal (to the point where fans IMMEDIATELY guessed it). But really, they had driven the Ross/Banner thing into the ground centuries ago, and it gave them a new dynamic. Big secrets like that tend to be disappointing let-downs anyways. This whole concept is so Pro Wrestling it's not even funny- a hot new "Monster Heel" debuts, "Squashes" all the prior top names in one-sided matches that seem to "Bury" them (the Abomination was badly beaten and then executed, for example). By "Putting Him Over", the victims devalue their own names, and the internet Smart Marks cry foul, calling for the head of this guy being "Over-Pushed". Once his "Push" ends and he loses the big-time rematch at the end of their Series, he starts "Giving Back His Wins" that he had amassed before, losing to many of the same guys. For example, he's since jobbed to The Hulk, Thor, a super-powerful Ben Grimm, and the X-Men, and during a more heroic turn in which he tries to make up for past misdeeds, he's become more or less a traditional hero, prone to struggling to overcome many situations (like against the Mayan Gods).

-The Red Hulk's origins turn out to be the result of The Intelligencia (some Hulk foes, led by M.O.D.O.K.) gathering together and empowering a rival Hulk, by the way. Ross eventually turns on them and attempts to take over the world for himself, but is defeated by the Hulk thanks to Rulk overheating. And this is the story that gets the Avengers to recruit him.

Post-Villainous Rulk:
-Ross as the Red Hulk continues to appear in various comics- despite the Fanboy Rage hurled his way, his appearances sell like gangbusters, which puts him both on the Avengers, a starring role in the Hulk's book, and even Marvel's Agents of S.M.A.S.H., a Hulk-based cartoon show! And so his "Face Turn" was more or less preordained, despite it being COMPLETELY INSANE that anyone would trust such an amoral, obsessive, vindictive person with that kind of power. But sure enough, the guy starts farting around with the Thunderbolts (humorously drawn by the late Steve Dillon as a man with real-life human proportions instead of the Gigantic Monster literally every other artist draws "Hulks" as), teaming with the Avengers against some Infinity Gem-wielders, and fighting the Thing when he's under the power of The Serpent (this leads to an idiot statement- Bendis speaking through his characters- that this was the "bravest thing" Edwin Jarvis had ever seen, despite him seeing WAY more worthy things than just "Fighting someone more powerful than you". Eventually, Ross is found and defeated by the "Doc Green" Hulk, who depowers him permanently with some nano-compound thingie, and Ross is arrested for desertion (which is, really, quite accurate).

The Red Hulk's Stats:
-I think I've got a pretty good handle of this guy- this is what I got off of Wikipedia and copying others' builds, plus that arc with the Mayan Gods that I've read. Plus his appearances in other books. He's as strong as the baseline Hulk, but a much better fighter, has nifty giant guns, and gets super, SUPER hot, doing massive damage with an Aura Effect. He's of high PL, equivalent to Thor or The Hulk, which accounts for his "New Villain Stink" putting him ahead of both of them in early fights. He used to have an Energy Absorption power- Nullifying all Energy Powers (or Afflicting them), but it's been taken away. Other than that, he's just a more vicious, craftier, militaristic Hulk- a fight between him and Banner could go either way.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 3626
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk 2099! The Abomination! Tyrannus! The Red Hulk!)

Post by Batgirl III »

Image

What in the hell is this!? Is "Thunderbolt" Ross a member of the military of Freedonia, because there isn't a single ribbon or badge here that even resembles one issued by the United States. Forget the service ribbons... They couldn't even get his rank insignia right. You can look all this stuff up on Wikipedia in about twenty seconds, folks.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.
User avatar
catsi563
Posts: 4130
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:29 pm
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk 2099! The Abomination! Tyrannus! The Red Hulk!)

Post by catsi563 »

In an ironic way ross is like JJ Jameson or Lex Luthor in villain status, almost iconic to the characters series and a virtual trope in and of himself.

On the other hand though ross always represented to me the epitome of some aspects of a bad government to me, the failing upwards aspect. Hwo a man who is directly responsible for so many casualties and what to that point had to be trillions of dollars of damage and wasted machinery and manpower not only wasn't arrested and jailed but kept getting promoted and given access to more men and tech is an epic level absurdity.

If id been president my first act would have been to fire the man on the spot and if I couldn't fire him id have ordered him demoted to buck private E0 and assigned him to gnome Alaska to clean toilets.
Dr. Silverback has wryly observed that this is like trying to teach lolcats about Shakespeare

Showdown at the Litterbox

Catsi stories
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk 2099! The Abomination! Tyrannus! The Red Hulk!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Batgirl III wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:10 am Image

What in the hell is this!? Is "Thunderbolt" Ross a member of the military of Freedonia, because there isn't a single ribbon or badge here that even resembles one issued by the United States. Forget the service ribbons... They couldn't even get his rank insignia right. You can look all this stuff up on Wikipedia in about twenty seconds, folks.
Like i said:

"-Ross is a tolerable General (in the Air Force, it was apparently decided, though don't expect the artist to ever get the uniform right, or the writers to keep it consistent), and pretty good in a scrap, but is way below the level of a Comic Book Soldier-type."

There ain't a lot of overlap between Comic Book Fans and Military Nerds (I know SOME, but definitely not close to even 10% of them). Artists are also known for a tendency to embellish to make things more interesting.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk 2099! The Abomination! Tyrannus! The Red Hulk!)

Post by Jabroniville »

catsi563 wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:48 am In an ironic way ross is like JJ Jameson or Lex Luthor in villain status, almost iconic to the characters series and a virtual trope in and of himself.

On the other hand though ross always represented to me the epitome of some aspects of a bad government to me, the failing upwards aspect. Hwo a man who is directly responsible for so many casualties and what to that point had to be trillions of dollars of damage and wasted machinery and manpower not only wasn't arrested and jailed but kept getting promoted and given access to more men and tech is an epic level absurdity.

If id been president my first act would have been to fire the man on the spot and if I couldn't fire him id have ordered him demoted to buck private E0 and assigned him to gnome Alaska to clean toilets.
Yeah, he's easily comics' best example of The Inspector Javert- the implacable, obsessive hunter.
BriarThrone
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk 2099! The Abomination! Tyrannus! The Red Hulk!)

Post by BriarThrone »

Jabroniville wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:31 am
Batgirl III wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:10 am Image

What in the hell is this!? Is "Thunderbolt" Ross a member of the military of Freedonia, because there isn't a single ribbon or badge here that even resembles one issued by the United States. Forget the service ribbons... They couldn't even get his rank insignia right. You can look all this stuff up on Wikipedia in about twenty seconds, folks.
Like i said:

"-Ross is a tolerable General (in the Air Force, it was apparently decided, though don't expect the artist to ever get the uniform right, or the writers to keep it consistent), and pretty good in a scrap, but is way below the level of a Comic Book Soldier-type."

There ain't a lot of overlap between Comic Book Fans and Military Nerds (I know SOME, but definitely not close to even 10% of them). Artists are also known for a tendency to embellish to make things more interesting.
And for mistaking significant details for pointless decoration, overestimating their own ability to Do Better, and in the process making the result less interesting on MANY levels than if they'd done two and a half minutes of Googling.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Xemnu the Titan

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

XEMNU THE TITAN
Created By:
Stan Lee & Jack Kirby
First Appearance: Journey Into Mystery #62 (Nov. 1960)
Role: Alien Conqueror
PL 14 (320)
STRENGTH
13 STAMINA 13 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 9 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 8 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Deception 8 (+12)
Expertise (Science) 8 (+16)
Expertise (Space Traveller) 2 (+10)
Insight 4 (+6)
Intimidation 4 (+8)
Perception 5 (+7)
Persuasion 5 (+9)
Technology 6 (+14)
Vehicles 4 (+6)

Advantages: 
Fast Grab, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 6

Powers:
"Large Size" Growth 4 (Str & Sta +4, +4 Mass, +2 Intimidation, -2 Dodge/Parry, -4 Stealth) -- (12 feet) (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) [9]

"Super-Psionic Might"
"Control Entire Worlds" Mind Control 6 (Extras: Area- 16,000 miles +23, Sustained) (Flaws: Touch Range -2) (156) -- [164]
  • AE: "Focused Mind Control" Mind Control 14 (56)
  • AE: "Induce Sleep" Affliction 12 (Will; Fatigued/Exhausted/Asleep) (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2) (36)
  • AE: "Induce Mental Blocks" Affliction 14 (Will; Transformed Memories or Perceptions) (Extras: Perception Range +2) (Flaws: Limited to Final Degree) (28)
  • AE: "Hypnosis" Mind Control 8 (Extras: Area- Visual Perception) (Flaws: Touch Range -2) (24)
  • AE: "Concussive Force Blasts" Blast 16 (32)
  • AE: "Animate Objects" Summon 5 (Extras: Horde, 8 Minions +6, Variable- Objects) (Flaws: Requires Objects) (45)
  • AE: "Atmo-Sphere" Flight 8 (500 mph) (16)
  • AE: "Space Atmo-Sphere" Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) Linked to Immunity 10 (Life Support) (11)
"Possess and Transform Another Being"
Immortality 1 (1 month) (Flaws: Resurrects as Insubstantial Energy Form) [1]
Affliction 5 (Will; Entranced/Compelled/Controlled & Transformed to Xemnu) (Extras: Permanent +3) (Flaws: Must Have Been Killed First) [15]

Offense:
Unarmed +9 (+13 Damage, DC 28)
Control Worlds +6 Area (+6 Affliction, DC 16)
Focused Control & Mental Blocks -- (+14 Perception Affliction, DC 24)
Hypnosis +8 Area (+8 Affliction, DC 18)
Force Blasts +8 (+16 Ranged Damage, DC 31)
Initiative +0

Defenses:
Dodge +7 (DC 17), Parry +7 (DC 17), Toughness +13, Fortitude +13, Will +7

Complications:
Power Loss (vs. The Hulk)- Xemnu has proven unable to control The Hulk psionically.

Total: Abilities: 86 / Skills: 46--23 / Advantages: 8 / Powers: 189 / Defenses: 14 (320)

-Xemnu is one of the classic Lee/Kirby Monsters from back in the day when ALL of Marvel's books were "Big Monster" books (the late days of the 1950s and the early '60s), brought back out of the mothballs to be a Hulk/Defendersvillain, trying to take over the world's children to repopulate his homeworld. He's actually shown up a few times as a classic "goofy" villain with his big white-furred body, though he's rather potent- apparently once having taken over the minds OF THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE. He was last seen in various silly books, though he was controlled by The Phalanx in Annihilation: Conquest, and once tried to turn She-Hulk into a "She-Xemnu". And no, he's not related to the Great Satan of $cientologist Mythology.

-Xemnu has a REALLY Wide-Area Mind Control Power (23 ranks is enough to cover the 7,900 entirety of the Earth because the Burst covers 8,000 miles on each side of Xemnu), though I don't think he ever used that power after his first appearance- most of the time he's a simple high-powered Telepath, capable of messing with guys like Doctor Strange (no mean feat- he fights GODS), Animate Objects, Fly around in space, and other weird things. He's an odd build, especially since he packs some of that stuff onto a POWERHOUSE physique as well as being a high-level Scientific Genius. Though expensive and high-powered, he does suffer a bit defensively, being only PL 10 with Dodge & Parry (many Earth heroes can simply overpower him if they break free from his mental control), and the PLs of his various attacks tend to vary. He's PL 14 with a focused bout of Mind Control, but physically he's only PL 11 unarmed.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk 2099! The Abomination! Tyrannus! The Red Hulk!)

Post by Ares »

God but I hated the Red Hulk, and it didn't surprise me in the slightest that it was Jeph Loeb who created him.

I don't mind a new villain being introduced as a threat to the hero. That's what good villains do. But what Jeph did was make the villain the star of the book, basically had him going around beating up other established heroes, killing the Abomination, beating up Cosmic Beings, etc.

It was like the villainous version of his run on "Superman" and "Batman & Superman", which included scenes of the Batman and Superman supporting cast being easily taken down and then the threat that took them down casually sidestepped by the heroes, that had Doomsday loudly proclaim that the Martian Manhunter was "No Superman" before Superman defeated Doomsday one-on-one, Superman shattering Diana's indestructible bracelets with a punch and then strangling her with her own lasso, basically going out of his way to include other heroes just to have Superman one-up them.

Then Supergirl appeared and seemed to possibly be even stronger and faster than Superman, and then Jeph had HER go around interacting with the rest of the DCU, casually overpowering foes the Justice Society, Outsiders and Wonder Girl were struggling with, got split into good and evil halves and had her evil side defeat the Justice League, etc. Only to have Superman show up and defeat her, claiming that she just never held back while he always held back, and thus when he stopped holding back, he could equal or overpower her. Jeph basically had Supergirl beat up half the heroes and villains of the DCU, just so Superman could defeat her and thus have defeated them by proxy.

It got even worse when Jeph SOMEHOW got put in charge of Marvel's television entertainment division. Under his management, Avengers: EMH was forced to abandon aspects that had made it successful, losing the overarching storylines and multi-part stories, having to focus more on Cap, Thor and Iron Man rather than the lesser heroes, forced to include storylines from the movies and include Jeph's pet character the Red Hulk, etc. He claimed that he wanted every episode to stand on its own, to not have season long storylines and to focus on the big three Avengers.

And then he canceled the series and gave us the mediocre Avengers Assemble . . . which included season long storylines, multi-part episodes, and focused on Avengers other than Cap, Thor and Iron Man. Only without the skilled writing that made those elements work. So basically, Jeph Loeb hamstrung one of the best superhero series by removing elements the creative team used to great effect, canceled it, started up a new series, and then implemented the very things he had forced the previous team to abandon, only done in a much less effective way.

All I need to find out is that he collaborated with Geoff Johns on the Nu-52 and Nu-Shazam and Jeph might actually eclipse my dislike of Dan DiDio and Joe Quesada.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 3626
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk 2099! The Abomination! Tyrannus! The Red Hulk!)

Post by Batgirl III »

BriarThrone wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:18 amAnd for mistaking significant details for pointless decoration, overestimating their own ability to Do Better, and in the process making the result less interesting on MANY levels than if they'd done two and a half minutes of Googling.
I'm not quite as obsessive a "rivet counter" as some militaria nerds that I know (y'know, the ones for whom a film like A Bridge Too Far is RUINEDFOREVER!!! when they notice that one of the riflemen in the background of Scene #17 has the wrong bayonet?). So I wouldn't expect a comic book artist on a tight deadline to get every "ribbon rack" correct in every panel... But in the case of Gen. Ross when it's something as basic as making the stars the right color!? C'mon!

Heck, I don't even expect much out of Hollywood movies. Just don't put a Vietnam Sevice Medal on a WWII paratrooper and don't do anything like this:

Image
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk 2099! The Abomination! Tyrannus! The Red Hulk!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Funny thing is, as an artist, I can absolutely 100% tell you the exact mental process of each level of the creative team.

Writer: *drops off summary of issue*

John Romita Jr.: "Oh for f*ck's sake, an issue featuring a fleet of Helicopters? Tons of military hardware everywhere? And I gotta finish this in a month? OK, damn it, here you go. Army dude, give him a patchy uniform and a cap with some stars on it so you know he's in the military. That little rectangle with all those lines on it. Some medals... shit. What do the medals look like? UGH, there's a dozen helicopters in this scene- f*ck it. They'res circles with wings, right? Nobody's going to care."

Colorist: "Oh for f*ck's sake, what is this? An issue with tons of military hardware AND guys in fatigues? That takes 100 times as long to color! All the shading on the folded bits... f*ck. All this shit's gold, right? Never mind; don't care."

Editor: "YEAH! AWESOME! Fatigues & helicopters!! Hey wait- he didn't push my favorite characters hard enough- time to give the writer another phone call"

It actually reminds me of a comic I tried to get into the college paper, based off of a friend's story in the Reserves (he was told to "take that piece of shit off", referencing his Crucifix, while the Sikhs were allowed to wear their turbans). I of course made the soldiers dress like the agents of The Grail in Preacher because I was like "F*ck it- army stuff, right? Who cares?" My friend was mortified- "WE DON'T WEAR BERETS!!!" His reaction was funny enough that I refused to change it.

---

With movies, it's a bit different. Army-based stuff is supposed to have an "expert" on-hand to make sure stuff like this works. HOWEVER, the military is notorious for refusing to help out any show that doesn't sing the praises of the military (it makes a GREAT recruiting tool), so butt-kissers like Michael Bay get all the good hardware for cheap, while other things (like Jarhead) were stuck with less. M*A*S*H had a military adviser on hand (in addition to a trained nurse to ensure that people weren't stabbing each other with their implements, and that the "jargon" was correct), but I've heard the trouble with those types is the suddenly start interjecting with "episode ideas" because they want to be a part of the process.

However, that's a budgetary thing. Sometimes they don't bother. Sometimes the expert doesn't bother. Sometimes props are limited, and they need to just shoot the scene. A LOT of the time, they know only a smidgen of the audience will ever care.

On Downton Abbey, the dude playing the Earl of Grantham talked about two prop guys having a 20-minute long debate over the exact color of an article of clothing he was to wear. He pointed out that, as an actor, you LOVE hearing that kind of thing, because in a shoddier production, you'd hear "Oh who cares- make it bloody orange or something. Nobody's going to notice!" That attention to detail was absolutely INTENSE on that show, to the point where they had an expert on Upper-Class Manners of the Early 20th Century on hand for EVERY SCENE, and he was allowed to intervene and start dictating things to the actors after the first take.

And even on THAT show, they made mistakes. Pretty much every equestrian scene was wrong somehow. It's why shows like this can't please everyone, and why lawyers NEVER watch Law Shows, and why cops always make fun of Cop Shows- varying degrees of accuracy are there, "little things" get missed all the time, and some stuff just doesn't work.

Ken Levine's comments about when he worked on M*A*S*H:
Fan Question: Did it ever bother any of the MASH production staff that seemingly no attempt was made to make the women's hair and makeup seem to be of the 50's era? (Margaret had a Farrah Fawcett hairdo later on in the series fer cryin' out loud - and Klinger's getups were about the only reliable shout-outs to actual female dress of that time).

I LOVE the show, but this one thing always bugged me.

Ken: Bee, it bugged me more. To the point of driving me crazy. Nurses in Korea also didn’t have long nails, sport bright red lipstick, or wear tailored green sweatshirts with the MASH logo. Dog tags were for identification not accessories. Fashion experts were not consulted when designing wartime army fatigues.

But these are arguments producers rarely win. It’s the TV equivalent of trying to give a cat a bath.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Blackbird

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

BLACKBIRD (Heather O'Gara, aka Jackdaw)
Created By:
Bill Mantlo & Sal Buscema
First Appearance: The Incredible Hulk #274 (Aug. 1982)
Role: Jobber Villain, Flying Character
Group Affiliations: The Femizons
PL 8 (103)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Aerobatics 6 (+10)
Athletics 2 (+4)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+10)
Deception 4 (+5)
Expertise (Criminal) 4 (+5)
Intimidation 4 (+5)
Ranged Combat (Cable Claw) 2 (+10)
Stealth 2 (+6)
Technology 2 (+3)

Advantages:
Favoured Environment (Airborne), Improved Critical (Cable Claw), Move-By Action, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 4, Uncanny Dodge

Powers:
"Blackbird Costume" (Flaws: Removable) [18]
Flight 6 (120 mph) (Flaws: Winged) (6)
Protection 2 (2)
"Wing Slash" Strength-Damage +2 (2)
"Cable-Claw" Snare 6 (Flaws: Limited to Two Targets) (12)
-- (22 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Wing Slash +8 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Cable-Claw +10 (+7 Ranged Affliction, DC 17)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (DC 21), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +3 (+5 Costume), Fortitude +5, Will +3

Complications:
Motivation (Greed)

Total: Abilities: 50 / Skills: 28--14 / Advantages: 9 / Powers: 18 / Defenses: 12 (103)

-'70s Hulk stories seem so incredibly weird in retrospect. This is mainly due to the TREMENDOUS Power Creep inherent to the top tier guys in the Marvel Universe- how else do you explain The Hulk constantly being threatened by guys who later turned into Jobbers? Like Jackdaw here, who changed her name to "Blackbird" in her second appearance. Both names are for birds in the passerine family Corvus genus (related to Crows), but Jackdaws are unknown to North America, so the name's probably lost on most Americans (I had to look it up- I just assumed it was a bird because... well, she's a winged lady), and sounds rather masculine. She's just your everyday flying character who bugged The Hulk as a Leader henchwoman for one arc, got fired (presumably- Leader had her beaten for failure), and later turned up as a trusted lieutenant of Superia in one of Mark Gruenwald's weirdest Captain America arcs.

-She appeared hunting down Cap & Paladin alongside Moonstone, who KO'd Cap briefly with one of her Light-Beams while he was stuck in the water trying to untie Paladin's parachute. Paladin blasted Moonstone out of the sky (a very tiny role given what she became later- by this point she'd been seen most recently in the Avengers: Under Siege story) and Cap recovered and fought Blackbird- she was able to fly around with him attached to her foot, but he managed to flip around, grapple her by the waist with his legs (kinky) and he knocked her out with a simple clamp attack around the neck. A curiously "involved" fight scene considering she was a nobody and he was CAPTAIN AMERICA, but Gru was pretty good about letting him be challenged by anyone- not just elite characters. Cap usually won, but he had to FIGHT for his wins. She later popped up under Superia's command again, as one of the villainess's Lieutenants. She was easily defeated by M.O.D.A.M. when Superia assaulted A.I.M. Headquarters. The character has not reappeared since- as she's a simple crook with a flying costume, there's not really much TO her, but hey- there's not a lot of lady Jobbers out there.

-Blackbird's a handy PL 8 character, but still rather low-level. She provided almost no challenge for Captain America, despite him being KO'd by Moonstone's Blast just a few minutes earlier, and floating in the water, sans Shield. Cap just grabbed her leg when she buzzed the water's surface looking for his body, flew along with her, then flipped BACKWARDS to wrap his legs around her waist, then KO her with a hand-clasp around the throat. Of course, he's still CAPTAIN AMERICA, so she was still fighting 3 PLs out of her league. She's got your everyday Flying Person stuff on her, based around a Device, as well as a Cable-Claw trick (but note that she can only use two).
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk 2099! The Abomination! Tyrannus! The Red Hulk!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Ares wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:55 am God but I hated the Red Hulk, and it didn't surprise me in the slightest that it was Jeph Loeb who created him.

I don't mind a new villain being introduced as a threat to the hero. That's what good villains do. But what Jeph did was make the villain the star of the book, basically had him going around beating up other established heroes, killing the Abomination, beating up Cosmic Beings, etc.

It was like the villainous version of his run on "Superman" and "Batman & Superman", which included scenes of the Batman and Superman supporting cast being easily taken down and then the threat that took them down casually sidestepped by the heroes, that had Doomsday loudly proclaim that the Martian Manhunter was "No Superman" before Superman defeated Doomsday one-on-one, Superman shattering Diana's indestructible bracelets with a punch and then strangling her with her own lasso, basically going out of his way to include other heroes just to have Superman one-up them.

Then Supergirl appeared and seemed to possibly be even stronger and faster than Superman, and then Jeph had HER go around interacting with the rest of the DCU, casually overpowering foes the Justice Society, Outsiders and Wonder Girl were struggling with, got split into good and evil halves and had her evil side defeat the Justice League, etc. Only to have Superman show up and defeat her, claiming that she just never held back while he always held back, and thus when he stopped holding back, he could equal or overpower her. Jeph basically had Supergirl beat up half the heroes and villains of the DCU, just so Superman could defeat her and thus have defeated them by proxy.

It got even worse when Jeph SOMEHOW got put in charge of Marvel's television entertainment division. Under his management, Avengers: EMH was forced to abandon aspects that had made it successful, losing the overarching storylines and multi-part stories, having to focus more on Cap, Thor and Iron Man rather than the lesser heroes, forced to include storylines from the movies and include Jeph's pet character the Red Hulk, etc. He claimed that he wanted every episode to stand on its own, to not have season long storylines and to focus on the big three Avengers.

And then he canceled the series and gave us the mediocre Avengers Assemble . . . which included season long storylines, multi-part episodes, and focused on Avengers other than Cap, Thor and Iron Man. Only without the skilled writing that made those elements work. So basically, Jeph Loeb hamstrung one of the best superhero series by removing elements the creative team used to great effect, canceled it, started up a new series, and then implemented the very things he had forced the previous team to abandon, only done in a much less effective way.

All I need to find out is that he collaborated with Geoff Johns on the Nu-52 and Nu-Shazam and Jeph might actually eclipse my dislike of Dan DiDio and Joe Quesada.
What's sad about the Red Hulk is that it's arguably the closest thing to a majorly successful "New Character Push" in years. Because the character went from a nobody to a guy who shows up in cartoons, toys, and more- even getting his own title for a bit! How many guys who've popped up in the past 20 years can say THAT?

And all they had to do was slap him onto a pre-existing character! Which is kind of ingenious, because then you can't just blow him off and pretend like he never existed. He's THUNDERBOLT ROSS. You can't just ignore him! This FORCES every other writer to use or mention him, and there'll be no randomly killing him off for decades, either!
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk Builds! U-Foes! Brian Banner! Lord A! Hulk 2099!)

Post by Jabroniville »

HalloweenJack wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:16 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:08 am
HalloweenJack wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:08 am strange....I could have sworn I replied about the Hulk movie and how my favorite scene was the Hulk leaping on the jet to keep it from crashing into the bridge. odd.


anyways, the Abomination....heh....that always takes me back to Class 100 Colossus debates back at HC. Where this one guy (damned if I can think of his name though) was constantly going on about Colossus beating the Abomination which showed how awesome Colossus was.....despite every panel of the fight showing Abom fighting an entire team of X-Men, bystanders who saw it saying "They" beat him and even others conceding "yeah Colossus was probably the biggest factor in winning the fight but it was a team effort" and the guy was just "no no no, Colossus did it"
Ahhh, BattleBoarders.

I still remember the days BEFORE when scans were easily available, so that nobody could tell whether or not anybody was telling the truth. And how certain characters ("Superman With This Magic Sword From One Story!") would suddenly become overwhelmingly popular as the "Top Tier" characters.

The "Class 100 Colossus" story was always amusing to hear about, though I wasn't around for that particular one. Though they had that Gruenwaldian sense of what "Class 100" meant, as people later moved it to mean "can still lift hundreds/thousands of tons" instead of "100 and under".


ha ha...I remember somebody back on the old SHSD boards perpetuating the rumor for YEARS that Lobo had said in his own series that he had been paid off by a midget with claws to lose a fight at one point. And we all believed it because A) it sounded like something Lobo would say and B) who read Lobo anyway?
Wait... that wasn't real? I've been hearing about that rumor for YEARS. I could swear I've seen it elsewhere before, too.
FuzzyBoots
Posts: 2396
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk 2099! The Abomination! Tyrannus! The Red Hulk!)

Post by FuzzyBoots »

FWIW, the rumor seems more prevalent that Professor X made the bribe, which sounds more like his kind of thing than Wolverine's. No panel I've found indicating it was the case, though.
Corrigon
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:36 am

Re: Jab's Builds! (Hulk 2099! The Abomination! Tyrannus! The Red Hulk!)

Post by Corrigon »

One thing with the Professor Hulk is that when he got mad, he turned into banner's body with the savage hulk's mind, who then didn't know why he was so weak.

Pantheon turned up in incredible hercules at least
Post Reply