Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Skaramine
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Tombstone! The Enforcers! The Chameleon! Electro!)

Post by Skaramine »

HalloweenJack wrote: Sun May 14, 2017 4:47 pm As I've said before, it's best to read Superior Foes with the voices from Archer in your head

Example, Boomerang is Archer, Beetle is Lana, Shocker is Cyril, etc
Oh my gosh, that's beautiful!
The ATT member formerly known as both MorningKnight and Power-Glove.
Just call me Doug.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Tombstone! The Enforcers! The Chameleon! Electro!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

Right?
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The Shocker

Post by Jabroniville »

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THE SHOCKER (Herman Schultz)
Created By:
Stan Lee & John Romita
First Appearance: The Amazing Spider-Man #46 (March 1967)
Role: Bottom-Tier Villain, Blaster
Villain Ranking: D-List (originally C-List)
Group Affiliations: The Sinister Six, The Sinister Syndicate, The Masters of Evil
PL 9 (120)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Acrobatics 2 (+5)
Athletics 3 (+5)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+8)
Deception 4 (+4)
Expertise (Criminal) 4 (+8)
Expertise (Science) 4 (+8)
Intimidation 4 (+4)
Perception 3 (+3)
Ranged Combat (Shockwaves) 3 (+9)
Sleight of Hand 4 (+8)
Stealth 4 (+8)
Technology 5 (+9)

Advantages: 
All-Out Attack, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Shockwaves), Power Attack, Teamwork

Powers:
"Posturpedic Quilted Costume" (Flaws: Removable) [36]
"Vibratory Energy" Immunity 5 (Entrapment Effects) (5)

"Deflection Field"
Enhanced Defenses 3 (6)
Force Field 2 (Extras: Impervious 3) (5)

"Vibro-Smashers"
"Shockwaves" Damage 9 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Cone, Penetrating) (27) -- (29)
  • AE: "Focused Shockwave" Blast 9 (Extras: Penetrating) (27)
  • AE: "Vibratory Stun" Affliction 9 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Ranged) (18)
-- (45 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Shockwave +9 Area (+9 Damage, DC 24)
Focused Wave +9 (+9 Ranged Damage, DC 24)
Stun +9 (+9 Ranged Affliction, DC 19)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +9 (+12 Field, DC 19-22), Parry +9 (+12 Field, DC 19-22), Toughness +3 (+5 Field, +2 Impervious), Fortitude +5, Will +3

Complications:
Reputation (Mook)- The Shocker started out OK, but by now he's a living joke in the hero & villain communities, being made fun of for his silly quilted outfit and his win/loss record.
Motivation (Greed)
Enemy (Spider-Man)

Total: Abilities: 44 / Skills: 42--21 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 36 / Defenses: 14 (120)

Don't Mock The Shocker!! .... Okay, Mock Him:
-The Shocker is one of those guys that a lot of people wish would get an upgrade from his "Totally-Pathetic Jobber" status. I remember my friend deriding how Ultimate Spider-Man trotted out a "Shocker" immediately, making him a goof with no real costume that jobbed immediately and became pathetic. He said it was a total waste, as the Ultimate-verse was a PERFECT opportunity to really make something of a guy like that. Our own Ares has suggested that he is PERFECT for a storyline where a guy gets an upgrade and gets taken seriously. I've heard other comments over the years that he's a perfect guy to "Catman"- really remake him into a great threat, erasing his Jobber reputation.

-However, all of these people are wrong.

-See, The Shocker is not a Jobber. The Shocker is THE Jobber. Comics has more goofy, pathetic villains than I could count, and many go into history as goofballs with weird costumes that are doomed to failure. But The Shocker is the king of the mountain, and the greatest of them all- the most famous Jobber of all time! He is LEGENDARY in comics circles as a goofy guy in a garish, quilted outfit who has zero credibility, and it's pretty much a running gag in the stories themselves about how much of a loser he is. And let's face it- comics ALREADY has a ton of bad-ass villains... you can actually tell MORE stories (unique ones, too!) about a Jobber Shocker than you ever could about a Competent, Deadly Shocker. To lose that concept would be a total waste! In effect, being a Jobber is what Herman Schultz is all about- he's more effective as a loser than he ever would be as a bad-ass!

The Shocker's History:
-The Shocker is... well, he's basically a Mook with Powers, and nothing special or unique. Despite that, he has a minor but vocal fanbase that heavily appreciates what he brings to the table. He's almost beautifully simple, based around an unusual type of attack (Vibration Waves, though this really just translates to "blasts stuff" like all other ranged fighters), but he's such a classic guy. Not about vendettas or being crazy, he's just a minor-league crook who built a safe-cracking device and tries to steal stuff with it. He's got a few neat side-tricks to prevent him from being TOO generic, but his stock has fallen ever since his debut- he had a few wins over Spider-Man at first, but he's been the most perfect example of "Villain Decay" I've ever seen, as he eventually turned into a one-shot-KO joke in the occasional story, and he rarely gets a bad-ass boost (he had one with a newer, bulkier costume, but the next creative team promptly forgot about it). In a classic case of "Spidey Sucks at Fighting New Villains", The Shocker wiped him out, and Peter only beat him the next time by doing a sneaky attack that kept Schultz' fingers from pushing the triggers on his gloves. Nowadays, no hero would even bother- they'd just run up and kick his ass. And that's AWESOME.

-His biggest schemes were at the beginning of his career- within a decade, he'd become a bit of a joke, with the running gag that he lacked confidence. He ran in terror from The Scourge of the Underworld, believing that, as a Jobber Villain, he was doomed. Spider-Man stopped taking him seriously. He ended up in a few iterations of The Masters of Evil, The Sinister Six/Twelve/Whatever, and more. He tried to become more powerful, but internalizing his Vibration Powers threatened his life- resulting in Spidey & Night Thrasher helping him out. He's actually managed a few wins and near-wins over the Web-Slinger over the years, but these are largely-forgotten about, because he tends to job in seconds in other stories, or accidentally vaporize his ally Hydro-Man with an errant Vibe Wave.

The New Don of New York:
-This reputation as a loser made him a PERFECT fit for The Superior Foes of Spider-Man, which used him as the ultimate pathetic sad-sack, desperate to be taken seriously, but being too stupid and unlucky to make it happen. He's easily-led by more-confident supervillains (Boomerang, the new Beetle), gets betrayed by Boomerang and nearly killed, and can barely manage to survive when he accidentally finds the mysterious "Head of Silvermane" that's been the Plot Maguffin for half the series (it was just a lie invented by Boomerang, but turned out to be a REAL THING). And then he gets the greatest moment in his entire life, as he ONE-SHOTS THE PUNISHER, saves dozens of mobsters' lives, and has the entire New York Mafia bowing down to him as their New Don. If that isn't made permanent canon, I'm going to lose my shit.

The Shocker's Stats:
-The Shocker's a simple Blaster at heart, but has some unique tricks for a PL 9 guy. He's moderately good with his Skills & smarts (he built his own vibratory system, but never did anything else with his knowledge, like most Comic Book Inventors), has a standard Blast and an Area one (both Penetrating, to reflect their ability to vibrate someone inside their own armour), plus a Stunning Affliction effect, solid Protection (he can "deflect" punches from guys as strong as Spider-Man at times) and an Immunity to grappling. I used to go with a standard Force Field, but I think it's more "Protection + Enhanced Defenses" now. In this sense, he's a big problem for Spidey, as the Webs are useless, and he's tough enough to take some shots, but ultimately, a Jobber is a Jobber. Except when he's the Don of New York.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24689
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Styx & Stone

Post by Jabroniville »

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STYX (Jacob Eishorn)
Created By:
David Michelinie & Todd McFarlane
First Appearance: The Amazing Spider-Man #309 (November, 1988)
Role: Jobber Villains
Group Affiliations: Styx & Stone
PL 10 (64)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE -1 AWARENESS -1 PRESENCE -1

Skills:
Expertise (Hobo) 4 (+3)
Intimidation 5 (+4)
Stealth 3 (+6)

Advantages: 
Startle

Powers:
"Kill All Life"
Weaken Stamina 14 (Feats: Reach 3) (17) -- [18]
  • AE: Weaken Toughness 10 (Feats: Reach 3) (Extras: Affects Objects Only +0) (Flaws: Limited to Organics) (8)
"Living Cancer" Immunity 1 (Disease) [1]

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Weaken +6 (+14 Weaken, DC 24)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +3, Fortitude +4, Will +3

Complications:
Motivation (Killing is Awesome)- Styx needs to kill to survive, and enjoys doing so.
Power Loss (Death Touch- Requires Skin Contact)- Styx needs to touch flesh in order to use his powers- even Spider-Man's costume was enough to protect him.

Total: Abilities: 26 / Skills: 12--6 / Advantages: 1 / Powers: 19 / Defenses: 12 (64)

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STONE (Gerald Stone)
Created By:
David Michelinie & Todd McFarlane
First Appearance: The Amazing Spider-Man #309 (November, 1988)
Role: Jobber Villains
Group Affiliations: Styx & Stone
PL 8 (102)
STRENGTH
4 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 5 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Deception 2 (+2)
Expertise (Science) 6 (+11)
Intimidation 4 (+4)
Investigation 4 (+4)
Perception 2 (+2)
Technology 6 (+11)
Treatment 6 (+11)
Vehicles 2 (+4)

Advantages: 
Equipment 2 (Flying Platform- Toughness 4 & Flight), Ranged Attack 6

Powers:
"'90s-Style Harness" (Flaws: Removable) [xx]
"Knockout Gas" Affliction 8 (Fort; Dazed/Fatigued/Asleep) (Extras: Ranged, Area- 15ft. Cloud) (24) -- (27 points)
  • AE: Energy Blast 8 (16)
  • AE: "Blinding Flash" Dazzle Visuals 8 (Extras: Area- Visual Perception) (Flaws: Touch Range) (16)
  • AE: "Sticky Resin" Snare 7 (21)
Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Energy Blast +8 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Blinding Flash +8 Area (+8 Affliction, DC 18)
Sticky Resin +8 (+7 Ranged Affliction, DC 17)
Knockout Gas +8 Area (+8 Ranged Affliction, DC 18)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +4, Fortitude +5, Will +4

Complications:
Motivation (Helping Styx)- Feeling responsible for Styx's condition, Stone is devoted to keeping an eye on him, preventing him from killing innocent people, and eventually curing his condition.

Total: Abilities: 46 / Skills: 32--16 / Advantages: 8 / Powers: 19 / Defenses: 13 (102)

-These guys are a pair of baddies introduced during the McFarlane/Michelinie years, but didn't show much staying power. Gerald Stone was an idealistic scientist trying to cure cancer, and experimented on a homeless person named Jacob Eishorn illegally- the result was that Eishorn became a sadistic "Living Cancer" who killed to survive, and for enjoyment. Feeling responsible, Stone outfitted himself as a high-tech mercenary and paired up with "Styx", hoping to earn enough to find the cure (and to keep Styx only killing bad people). They were hired to kidnap Mary Jane, which naturally brought them into conflict with Spider-Man- Spidey defeated them on two separate occasions in the early days (once after Styx injured Venom). The last time they were seen, Cardiac failed to cure Styx's condition, and tried to kill him in order to save his future victims, which resulted in both Stone & Spider-Man fighting him.

-Styx is a scrawny hobo with a VERY powerful Death Touch (he more or less drops Venom in a single round), while Stone is a comically-muscular, bulky Doctor who is also a Scientist (because of course) with a tech-harness that allows for various moves. Styx is a full PL 10, but EXTREMELY one-note and highly-vulnerable- despite some dangerous offense, neither would last long in a fight.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Tombstone! The Enforcers! The Chameleon! Electro!)

Post by Ares »

Boomerang is actually kind of interesting, because when he was introduced, he was actually a pretty credible villain. While Captain Boomerang came first, Boomerang took the schtick of a boomerang gimmick weapon user and added jet boots to the concept, which is actually a stroke of genius. I mean, as ranged weapons go, Boomerangs are perfect comic book gimmick weapons, since you could put everything you'd put on Hawkeye or Green Arrow's arrows on it, but the boomerang also can do all of these weird arcs, can return, etc. It amazes me that it took Robert Kirkman to have a heroic boomerang gimmick user. Now taking that concept and giving them the ability to FLY, thus ensuring that they have a shot at maintaining their range advantage? That's bloody brilliant.

And Boomerang really was a legit threat for the longest time, but he vanished for a while during the Clone Saga mess, and after that, he was one of the lower tier Spider-Man villains who came back just to be jobbed, and he sort of settled into jobber territory thereafter. I will say that the new outfit is a definite plus, tho. Did the new get up include the flight boots? For some reason I don't think I've ever seen that version of the character fly.


I don't really care about the new Beetle. I'm admittedly a weird one that LIKED the original Beetle armor (likely my exposure to it on Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends", so seeing her in that outfit makes me think she stole one of the Wasp or Yellowjacket's old outfits, sans the shrinking tech.


Speed Demon is a weird one, though his outfit and name were incredible upgrades over his old one. He of all of them was a legit menace, but it's also not surprising they'd make him a joke for the sake of comedy. It's one reason I don't really care for the last Power Man/Iron Fist series, as that book basically made Danny into a complete buffoon. So seeing Sands


Overdrive is kind of interesting as someone who wants to be a hero, but decided to Hawkeye it to have a better shot at it. It'd be interesting to have a superhero actually sit down and talk to him about that and how messed up that actually is. Because it means that, instead of trying to help people, he's trying to be a criminal as a shortcut to Avengers membership. Which says he's really more about the shallow idea of a superhero than actual heroics, more like someone who wants to be a celebrity in our world by accident.

His power is also . . . weird. I'd admit, I can handle a lot of weird superpowers and get that most superpowers and super-tech make physicists cry, even before getting into the mystical stuff. But the whole "I can make any vehicle better" thing seems like some kind of Silver Age-silly power. Even when "The Batman" had a similar guy, at least he had limits to his. Turning a toy helicopter into a full on attack helicopter is just . . . stupid. Like, the only explanation for it would be if he got his hands on that Freedoms Ring/Cosmic Cube Ring and it only works for him with regards to vehicles because he's such a car nut. I HATE vague powers like that.


As for the Shocker, I'm going to have to disagree with Jab here. Even more than Electro, I think Shocker is the perfect "standard super criminal" in Marvel. Why? Because he can be anything the writer wants, and it's believable. At the end of the day, the Shocker is an average guy who developed a talent for crime, and was smart enough to build a suit that is actually pretty cool, in terms of powers if not style. He then got a taste for super-crime, but overall he's a mostly normal guy whose confidence is frequently rattled, but never truly broken. He can pull it together and be a real professional, but too many bad encounters can make him a sad sack of self-pity, moping and convinced he's a loser, only to get his shit together again and be a legit threat. We all probably know people like that, who take setbacks very personally and can really screw with their confidence.

So you can have him get his act together and be a credible criminal threat, or you can have him going through a bad spot, and be the jobber you need. The Shocker is a perfect villain because he can be a legit threat and a total jobber and it CONTRADICTS NOTHING. He's the perfect "standard" super criminal, flexible enough for any story.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Jabroniville
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Liz Allan

Post by Jabroniville »

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LIZ ALLAN (aka Elizabeth Allan-Osborn)
Created By:
Stan Lee & Steve Ditko
First Appearance: Amazing Fantasy #15 (Aug. 1962)
Role: First Love Interest, Most Popular Girl
Supporting Cast Ranking: D-List (was once B-List)
Group Affiliations: None
PL 0 (9), PL 1 (9) Saves
STRENGTH
0 STAMINA 0 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 0 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Insight 2 (+2)

Advantages: 
None

Offense:
Unarmed +0 (+0 Damage)
Initiative +0

Defenses:
Dodge +0 (DC 10), Parry +0 (DC 10), Toughness +0, Fortitude +1, Will +1

Complications:
Relationship (Harry Osborn)- The two were married for many years, until he died/their marriage ended in divorce via retcon.
Relationship (Normie Osborn)- Liz is usually seen accompanied by her son Norman.

Total: Abilities: 6 / Skills: 2--1 / Advantages: 0 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 2 (9)

-Liz Allan was an emormous part of the Spider-Man Mythos at first, which makes it all the funnier that she was basically dumped as soon as possible in order to give him other, better girls to crush on. Seriously, her role as "Peter's High School Crush" has basically been 100% co-opted by either Mary Jane or Gwen Stacy is *every Spider-Man Continuity since then*. You don't often see the early love interests dumped like that.

-Liz was the ever-popular archetype of The Most Popular Girl in School- a classic blonde who was dated the "Captain of the Football Team", creating a veritable mountain of cliches. She's seen as beautiful, but a bit stuck-up and rude to Peter, sometimes joining in when others make fun of "Puny Parker". However, she starts crushing on him when he is endangered trying to save Flash Thompson from Doctor Octopus (Pete was sick and was easily-beaten and unmasked- his poor performance made everyone assume that he was an imposter), but by this point Pete has switched gears to Betty Brant. Betty & Liz actually clash a couple times over this. The pair graduate High School (in 1965- only three years after their debut!), and her stepbrother Mark becomes The Molten Man. But after that, she largely vanishes from the book, accepting that Pete's interest in her had waned.

-Liz vanished for a few years during the Gwen/MJ Era, popping up as an unlikely date for Pete's buddy Harry Osborn (who had been dumped by MJ earlier). Eventually, the two are actually married, and she gives birth to Harry's son, Normie. She becomes a bit of a recurring side character, though often not really doing much but worry in an odd mimic of Mary Jane's own behavior (once she & Pete are married)- she just kind of sits around and pouts during the 1990s. However, in her case it was MORE severe, as Harry ends up having a mental breakdown, becomes The Green Goblin again, and is killed in a battle with Spider-Man. A devastated Liz kind of becomes this mopey figure in the background of a lot of '90s Spider-Man issues I have, looking all despondent but not really having much character beyond that. Seriously, the '90s weren't kind to a lot of characters, but they made Liz a combination of a drag AND a boring character.

-Liz actually moves on to Daredevil, dating Foggy Nelson for a bit after breaking ties with the Parkers. They break up thanks to the machinations of Mysterio in Kevin Smith's arc on the book. She's resentful when Peter's secret is revealed to the world in Civil War, but her marriage is removed from existance by (ugh) One More Day, as Harry turns up ALIVE but unmarried... except Normie's still around, so I guess they're supposed to be divorced now? Most recently, she has been shown as part of the board of Alchemax, the company that grows into a Megacorp in Spider-Man 2099, which will probably make her more important later.

-So Liz is... kind of emblematic of a lot of the Spider-Mythos' weirdness, actually. A simple, one-note Background Character, she gets a bit of work done (she starts liking Peter; her stepbrother is a super-villain), but kind of disappears... then ends up roped into Super-Hero Crap ANYWAYS, marrying the third Green Goblin, losing him, then getting mixed into OTHER weird things. She's a minor character in the '90s series, but is actually the Ultimate version of Firestar in a neat twist- gaining Mutant Powers.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Posts: 24689
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Goblins

Post by Jabroniville »

THE GOBLINS:
-For whatever reason, Marvel has seen fit to replicate this gimmick a THOUSAND times over. Me, I never really cared for the first Goblin's appearance as a kid, so I always associated it with the Demonic Hobgoblin (who was the only one when I first got into comics). You wouldn't think the whole "Fantasy Creature costume/Flying Metal Bat-Glider" thing would become such a powerful gimmick, but Marvel sure seems to love it.

THE GREEN GOBLIN:
Green Goblin I (Norman Osborn):
Norman was the first and only one for like fifteen years, vexing Spider-Man and discovering his Secret Identity. He suffered from frequent amnesia and then sudden bouts of villainous mania, until he was killed fighting Spider-Man one last time.
Green Goblin II (Harry Osborn): Harry would occasionally throw on the Goblin costume, suffering from the family Mental Illness, along with the Goblin Formula. He was an off-and-on character, finally dying in the early 1990s.
Green Goblin III (Dr. Bart Hamilton): A psychiatrist who would hypnotize Harry into amnesia, then put on the costume for himself. Dies in his first appearance.
Green Goblin IV (Phil Urich): Ben Urich's nephew, he was a small cult-hit guy in a 1990s Limited Series, but largely disappeared after that.

* Norman would later return in a BIG way, becoming the sole Green Goblin again. Harry would return too, but drop the Goblin stuff. Phil would come back under a different identity.

THE HOBGOBLIN:

* The Hobgoblin came about because writer Roger Stern wanted a new, mysterious Goblin to show up, but didn't want to re-use Harry or Hamilton, nor commit the heresy of bringing Norman back from the dead. As such, he formed a new gimmick, based off of a similar medieval Fantasy Creature.

Hobgoblin I: Unrelated to all the others, actually- this is an Imperial Guardsmen, and one of the ones given no general personality or character over the years. He's just a Chameleon Boy knock-off with a different colour scheme, being purple.
Hobgoblin II (Roderick Kingsley): A wealthy fashion magnate turned malicious criminal. Was supposed to be Hobbie all along, but it was later revealed to be Ned Leeds- Stern later Retconned in Kingsley as the original, with the others as pawns.
Hobgoblin III (Arnold "Lefty" Donovan): Kingsley's goon and "Test Subject", thrown out there in the uniform to test the experimental new Goblin Formula. Killed by Kingsley as the Formula wears off.
Hobgoblin IV (Ned Leeds): Spidey Supporting Character initially given as the secret identity by Spider-Editor Jim Owsley, without the writers' knowledge. Effectively a retcon, as he died in a story where it was revealed that he was Hobbie all along. However, it was retconned later that KINGSLEY was the original, and Leeds was merely being brainwashed into carrying the gear and doing some stuff.
Hobgoblin V (Jason Philip Macendale, Jr.): The original Jack O'Lantern, he basically takes the gimmick when he finds out that Leeds is the Hobgoblin, then has him killed by The Foreigner. Keeps the gimmick for years, but is made out to be a joke early-on, and links himself to a demon. Finally frees himself from demonic control, kills the Demogoblin, and is murdered in prison by Roderick Kingsley.
Hobgoblin VI (Unknown): Just some loser, he got his gear from The Tinkerer during Bendis' Secret War. Jailed at the end of the War.
Hobgoblin VII (Daniel Kingsley): Roderick's brother, posing as Roderick in order to become the new Hobgoblin. He is confronted by Phil Urich, who disables him with his "Lunatic Laugh", then decapitates him with a new Flaming Sword.
Hobgoblin VIII (Phil Urich): Also the fourth GREEN Goblin, Phil murders Daniel and briefly takes the role as one of The Kingpin's agents. Uncovered and jailed by The Superior Spider-Man, he later is recruited to be Osborn's "Goblin Knight".
Hobgoblin IX (Claude the Butler): Roderick's butler, sent in his stead to act as the Hobgoblin to distract Osborn's "Goblin Underground".

JACK O'LANTERN:

* The Jack O'Lantern is a Goblin-inspired guy who debuted in 1981 as a Machine Man foe. Once the original quit the name, it got passed around to a series of unimportant mooks.

Jack O'Lantern I (Jason Philip Macendale, Jr.): Only briefly kept the role, and gave it up to become the new Hobgoblin in the mid-1980s.
Jack O'Lantern II (Steven Mark Levins): A Captain America nemesis who joins The Skeleton Crew. Became a Background Jobber, then was killed by The Punisher- later becomes reanimated and fights Ghost Rider, but is killed again.
Jack O'Lantern III (Daniel Berkhart): The second Mysterio, given the costume as "Mad Jack" by Norman Osborn. Quit it to become Mysterio, but went back to it after allying with a relative of the original's.
Jack O'Lantern IV (Levins' Brother): A background nobody who was caught by the police, claiming to be Levins' brother.
Jack O'Lantern V (Real Name Unknown): Starts working for the third Crime Master (Betty Brant's stepbrother), and becomes an enemy of Flash Thompson in his guise as "Venom".

BLACKWING:

* A minor gimmick, Blackwing has the same general concept (Guy on Glider), but is unrelated to the Goblins.

Blackwing I (Joseph Manfredi): Silvermane's son, and ally of the second Jack O'Lantern, joining him in The Skeleton Crew. Became a Jobber Villain, joined The Crimson Cowl's Masters of Evil, and got beaten by the updated New Warriors, leading a group called "Heavy Mettle".
Blackwing II (Unknown Woman): Some girl in a winged costume, taking Manfredi's old name. May or may not be alive.
Blackwing III (Barnell Bohusk): The name taken by the former "Beak", once he'd been de-powered following M-Day. He joined the horrible, forgotten New Warriors in this form, using a flying costume.

OTHERS:
Proto-Goblin (Nels Van Adder): An OsCorp employee working on a bio-formula in a Retcon Story (Spider-Man #-1), but it turns him all red and evil. He dies, and Norman is inspired to modify his formula into what becomes the Goblin Formula.
The Grey Goblin I (Gabriel Stacy): One of Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn's children (UGH), fights Spider-Man a couple of times.
The Grey Goblin II/Menace (Lily Hollister): Harry Osborn's fiancee, who injests some Goblin Formula and goes crazy. Later becomes Menace.
Monster (Carlie Cooper): Peter's ex-girlfriend, later kidnapped by Osborn into becoming part of his "Goblin Army".
Demogoblin: Hobgoblin's Demonic self, which splits off, gains the same powers, and tries to murder Jason Macendale.

Their Stats:
-Statistically, the Goblins aren't much different from each other- they typically have Spidey-level Strength, some fighting skills, and an array of weaponry. However, the weapons are found in many different places, resulting in redundancies of the sort to make things much more expensive- many Goblins have Blasting Gloves (Hard To Remove) AND Exploding Pumpkin Bombs (Easily Removable), PLUS the weaponry on their Gliders (Equipment). The Goblins' biggest advantage is their ability to Fly, making them more maneuverable and faster than Spider-Man. The Pumpkin Bombs are also a bit of a nightmare to deal with, as they have great range, and tend do Area Damage (Spidey's high Agility & Dodge help him out greatly here, but they're excellent for covering getaways). They usually get the CRAP beaten out of them in fair fights, especially on the ground- general Goblin tactics are to toss around some Pumpkin Bombs, try a few shots with the Gloves or "Batarangs", and then flee on the Glider, where Spider-Man can't get to them.

-And yes, I view the Gliders as Equipment- while vital to the character concept (you usually don't see Goblins just wandering around on foot), they're typically easily-damaged, easily-repairable, and most Goblins have numerous ones just lying around. Some are so simple that they're basically a big piece of sheet metal with a rocket on the bottom, while others appear to be decked out with tons of weaponry- I usually use the same Statline for most Gliders, as what they've got on them can vary. Most Equipment is rather variable between adventures, anyways.

-And yeah, they tend to be rather same-y. That's gonna happen when you have TWENTY-ONE characters with the exact same gimmick. Though I won't be building some of the losers and one-offs (mostly the false Hobgoblins), and I've statted Jack O'Lantern & Blackwing already, I'll get the important ones.
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Norman Osborn

Post by Jabroniville »

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"Alright class- now pay attention. Lesson One is on how to make your name as a villain forever."

THE GREEN GOBLIN I (Norman Osborn)
Created By:
Stan Lee & Steve Ditko
First Appearance: The Amazing Spider-Man #14 (July 1964)
Role: Master Villain, Big Bad, Joker/Lex Luthor Hybrid, Upgraded by History, Bridge-Thrower-Offer, Mad Scientist
Villain Ranking: A-List (mostly B-List before 1976)
Group Affiliations: The Thunderbolts, The Sinister Twelve, The Cabal, H.A.M.M.E.R.
PL 11 (238)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 7 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 11 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 8 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 5

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+6)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+12)
Deception 9 (+14)
Expertise (Business) 8 (+16)
Expertise (Current Events) 3 (+11)
Expertise (Politics) 5 (+13)
Expertise (Science) 9 (+17)
Insight 6 (+10)
Intimidation 5 (+10)
Perception 4 (+8)
Persuasion 5 (+10)
Ranged Combat (Razor-Bats & Electro-Gloves) 2 (+14)
Technology 9 (+17)
Vehicles 4 (+8)
"Glider Pilot" Vehicles 6 (+14) (Flaws: Limited to Goblin Gliders)

Advantages: 
Accurate Attack, All-Out Attack, Beginner's Luck, Benefit (Wealth) 4, Connected, Daze (Intimidation), Diehard, Equipment 9 (Goblin Glider), Favored Environment (Airborne), Fearless, Great Endurance, Improved Aim, Improved Initiative 2, Inventor, Jack-Of-All-Trades, Last Stand (Ignores All Damage For 1 Round With HP Sepnt), Power Attack, Ranged Attack 8, Skill Mastery (Deception), Startle, Taunt

Powers:
"Altered Healing" Regeneration 2 (Feats: Regrowth) [3]

"Goblin Costume" (Flaws: Removable) [16]
"Electro-Circuitry Gloves" Blast 8 (16)
Protection 1 (1)
Immunity 2 (Chemicals) (2) -- (19 points)

"Goblin Weapon Array" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [21]
"Pumpkin Bomb- Blast" Blast 10 (Feats: Triggered- 1 Round) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (Diminished Range -1) (30) -- (35 points)
  • AE: "Pumpkin Bomb- Knock-Out Gas" Affliction 10 (Fort; Fatigued/Exhausted/Asleep) (Feats: Triggered) (Extras: Ranged, Area- 30ft. Burst) (Diminished Range -1) (30)
  • AE: "Pumpkin Bomb- Smoke" Concealment 4 (Feats: Triggered) (Extras: Area- 15ft. Cloud, Attack) (13)
  • AE: "Pumpkin Bomb- Hallucinogenic Gas" Affliction 10 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Transformed) (Feats: Triggered) (Extras: Ranged, Area- 15ft. Cloud) (Diminished Range -1) (30)
  • AE: "Spider-Sense Neutralizer" Nullify Sensory Powers 10 (Extras: Fort.Resistance +0, Continuous +3, Area- 15ft. Cloud) (Flaws: Fades, Limited to Spider-Sense) (30)
  • AE: "Razor-Bats" Blast 5 (Extras: Multiattack) (15)
Equipment:
"Goblin Glider"
(Medium; Strength 2, Defense 8, Toughness 6, Remote Control) (12)
Flight 6 (120 mph) (Flaws: Platform) (6)
"Heat-Seeking Missiles" Blast 10 (Feats: Homing 3) (23) -- (24)
AE: "Machine Guns" Blast 7 (Extras: Multiattack) (21) 
AE: "Blades" Damage 8 (8) -- (32 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +12 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Missiles +12 (+10 Ranged Damage, DC 25)
Machine Guns +12 (+7 Ranged Damage, DC 22)
Electro-Gloves +14 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Pumpkin Blast +10 Area (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Pumpkin KO Gas +10 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 20)
Pumpkin Hallucinogens +10 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 20)
Spidey-Neutralizier +10 Area (+10 Nullify, DC 20)
Razor-Bats +14 (+5 Ranged Damage, DC 20)
All Accuracy Boosted by +2 When Fighting Spider-Man (+13 Unarmed, +14 Ranged)
Initiative +11

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +12 (DC 22), Toughness +7 (+8 Costume), Fortitude +10, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Power)- Norman desperately seeks power in all its forms- wealth, women, politics, etc. He's into the game for power for it's own sake. 
Enemy (Spider-Man)
Responsibility (Insane)- The Goblin Formula has driven an already-amoral monster insane- despite his cravings for power, Norman has frequently risked it all out of sheer madness. At various times, his personality is completely altered, and he becomes a maddened, raving lunatic. He can be needlessly-sadistic, and is unbelievably arrogant. He has pretty much every known mental illness combined, fighting for attention in his brain.
Obsession (Spider-Man)- Norman is obsessed with Spider-Man, at times wanting to groom him as a successor, but also to kill him for his "misdeeds".
Responsibility (Sadist)- Norman is more than insane- he is truly sadistic, and enjoys torment. When a friendly prison guard asked him to help his wife, Norman instead arranged for a horrible death for the poor woman. He allows Bullseye to kill dozens of innocents. Pain gives him joy.
Power Loss (Goblin Formula)- If the Goblin Formula is ever neutralized, Norman's stats falter considerably, even his mental ones. His stats become: Strength 2, Stamina 2, Agility 0, Fighting 4, Dexterity 2 & Intelligence 6.

Total: Abilities: 100 / Skills: 76--38 / Advantages: 40 / Powers: 40 / Defenses: 20 (238)

Norman Osborn- Peter Parker's Arch-Nemesis:
-Gotta love Norman Osborn, especially since he started out so small- "just another Spider-Man villain" at first, he started picking up steam with the "Mystery Identity", and then he was revealed as the father of Peter's brand-new friend! This is reputed to be the straw that broke the camel's back between Stan Lee & Steve Ditko (the story goes that Ditko believed in the realism of having Gobby be some new guy, but Stan insisted that it be a known-character or the fans would feel ripped-off- Ditko has subsequently stated that he wanted to hold off on the revelation until later)- but it didn't hurt the character at all. Recurring incidents made the Goblin the #2 Spidey villain, perhaps even #1, not opposing Spidey physically like Doctor Octopus did, but being a thinking-man's foe with schemes and plots. They did some silly "Comic Book"-type stuff like having Norman learn Spidey's secret identity, but then forget it with "Convenient Amnesia", resulting in a kinder, gentler Norman for a while (he actually came out of the amnesia TWICE), but it was not to last....

The Night Gwen Stacy Died:
-Gerry Conway decided to off Gwen Stacy, Peter's "One True Love". And yeah, pulling a trick like THAT, in the NINETEEN-SEVENTIES? That's about the biggest-possible career-maker you could ever get. No Refrigerator-Stuffing here, this was out-and-out DRAMA, and a shock from which no fan was expecting. It revealed the true depths of Norman's villainy, the horror of what happens when a hero's ID is revealed, and more. It's only fitting that Norman was killed-off in that same storyline- How could he POSSIBLY top doing what no costumed super-villain had ever done before? And the death was magnificent- it left Spidey innocent (even the angriest he's ever been wasn't enough to push him to murder), and caused Norman to fail thanks to his own machinations- he defeated himself, impaled on his own weapon.

-Norman was dead for an astonishing twenty-some years, largley due to the "sacred" nature of the storyline. This allowed for numerous new "Goblins" to show up- from a random dude grabbing Osborn's gear, to Norman's own son Harry, who could never escape daddy's shadow. There was also a string of Hobgoblins and a Demogoblin, because comics are like that. Norman's spectre loomed a bit, but he was largely unmentioned in most books I had- as a kid, I actually thought the Goblin was dumb, since he looked INCREDIBLY-stupid in most pictures- big googly eyes, a purple cap, purple undies, and giant Dumbo ears? It took them until the 1990s to make that outfit look actually dangerous and creepy/crazy, rather than stupid- even Ditko, Romita & others couldn't save it.

The Return of Norman Osborn:
-But at the end of the Clone Saga, they brought Norman back, in a move many decried. But honestly, it's COMICS- someone was gonna do it, and it was a last-ditch effort to save the God-awful Clone Saga, by having him be behind the whole thing, just to make Spidey go crazy. They were gonna go with Harry being behind it all, but new Editor-In-Chief Bob Harras demanded it be Norman. At least they got some REALLY good stories out of him, like the one where he tortures Peter by locking him up in the dark like Norman's own daddy did to him as a kid. He vexes Peter a LOT over the next few years, doing increasingly-bizarre things like replacing Aunt May by an actress (who later dies), telling The Scorpion Spidey's secret identity, and joining a cult to perform a ritual that ends up turning him insane (well, insane-ER). Oh, and he once had sex with GWEN STACY and fathered her twins. Because UGH UGH UGH WHAT THE SHIT, MARVEL?

Modern-Day Norman:
-Norman becoming head of The Thunderbolts post-Civil War was COMPLETELY INSANE, but to writer Warren Ellis' credit, he went full-on with admitting just how insane that move was, as Osborn goes power-hungry, and ends up becoming the director of H.A.M.M.E.R., and replacing a disgraced Tony Stark. Dark Reign was a GREAT idea, featuring the enormously-dark period of SUPER-VILLAINS holding near-total power in America (insert joke about American politics here), but ultimately the cap-off to the story, Siege, was a huge failure. The return of Captain America felt like an afterthought, the dramatic "Cavalry Charge" scene was mostly Cap plus the f*cking Young Avengers of all people, and Norman's entire plot- the invasion of Asgard- was so insanely stupid & pointless that it completely ruined the entire concept. It was just some pointless power-grab that made him look like an idiot, and a huge waste of the entire story arc. He would be incarcerated, but break out of jail and form a Goblin Army that would even ruin OTTO OCTAVIUS' attempts at being Peter Parker, as Norman's chaos destroy Otto's order. Otto has to give up being Peter Parker in order to save the woman he loves- only PARKER has the real ability to halt Norman's rampage. His run as "The Goblin King" ends with him disguised as the new CEO of Alchemax (the Evil Megacorp of the "2099" future, but the post-Secret Wars stories have him as Norman once more.

Norman as a Whole:
-Truth be told, Norman is pretty awesome these days. He's always had this... weird mix of the big two DC villains in him- Norman Osborn is Lex Luthor with the heart of The Joker- the most brilliant, scheming, lying asshole businessman in the world... but he can't let go of this part of him that's completely, obsessively bonkers. He WANTS to be Neutral/Selfish Evil... but he's actually just Chaotic Evil.

-This dichotomy makes him fascinating, and truly pushes him to the upper-echelons of super-villainy. I like him more than either DC guy, because he's got all the Billionaire Smart Guy genius, yet he's pathetically nuts. It gives him this extra inch of tragedy, combined with an interesting personal flaw that can be his undoing- Osborn falls way more frequently than does the Teflon-coated Luthor. And his ability to survive stupid stories is almost as impressive as Peter's- truly, they are two peas in a pod.

Norman's Stats:
-Norman's a complex little bastard to stat out, having high stats across the board, even mentally, and with tons of Skills, Advantages and Powers. He's rather clunky as far as his attack-methods go, though- his Gloves, his Glider and his Bombs all create Ranged Damage, yet they're in three different categories and separate from each other. This makes him much more expensive than he theoretically should be (though he's barely more costly than Spidey himself), so it's a good thing he's a final-battle super-villain and not a Player Character. I was gonna make all three Goblin Devices- the Glider, the Bomb Array and the Costume- be actual Removable Devices, but I changed my mind after seeing how a few others statted their Goblins. Thinking about it, the Glider IS an easily-replaced hunk of tin that gets damaged alot, despite being core to his concept.

-I also stole the Triggered/Diminished Range idea for the Pumpkin Bombs from Taliesin (whose current lack of building prevents me from cribbing more of his ideas :)), as I forgot the former Feat, and didn't remember that Range thing either- the DCA-book doesn't give it to Grenades, and I totally didn't get that it left a 100-foot Long-Range on such Devices- far too much distance. Norman's got a TON of Tricks- a Spider-Sense Nullifier (which, remember, reduces Spidey's PL), Burst-Damage Bombs, Affliction-giving bombs (Hallucinogens are kind of a Mental Transformation), enough Science & Tech-skills to create a lot of stuff (+17 in both- higher than Spidey, but lower than Tony Stark, who states that Osborn is "too dumb" to replicate the Iron Man Armor), expertise in Politics & Business, REALLY good Deception, Persuasion & Intimidation (he covers all those bases extremely well- just look at him in Dark Reign, schmoozing with reporters), and more. Norman can do it all, and is a PL 11 accuracy-heavy Ranged Fighter who flies extremely well.

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The Iron Patriot Armor
(Feats: Restricted 2- Only Osborn) (Flaws: Removable) [68]
Enhanced Strength 4 (8)
Protection 5 (Extras: Impervious 9) (14)
Immunity 6 (Cold, Heat, Radiation, Pressure, Suffocation 2) (6)
"Boot Rockets" Flight 9 (1,000 mph) (18)
"Armor Sensors" Senses 11 (Extended & Infravision, Extended Hearing, Radar 4, Detect Energy- Ranged, Acute & Accurate) (11)

Magnetic Blast 11 (Feats: Split, Improved Critical) (24) -- (25)
  • AE: "Uni-Beam" Damage 11 (Feats: Penetrating 5) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Line) (Flaws: Distracting) (16)
-- (82 points)

-As The Iron Patriot, Osborn was packing an inferior version of the Iron Man armor, still being PL 11 on offense, PL 12 on defense.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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L-Space
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Tombstone! The Enforcers! The Chameleon! Electro!)

Post by L-Space »

I loved the Superior Foes's reason behind only having 5 guys in the Sinister Six was as some half-ass way of throwing people off because they thought the heroes would be worried about the (nonexistent) sixth member jumping out and attacking. A great book all around.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Chameleon! Electro! The Shocker! Goblins!)

Post by Skaramine »

Honestly, with the batarangs and the bat winged glider, I always saw the Green Goblin as the blend of Batman and the Joker before Norman went all Luthor.
The ATT member formerly known as both MorningKnight and Power-Glove.
Just call me Doug.
Jabroniville
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Harry Osborn

Post by Jabroniville »

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THE GREEN GOBLIN III (Harry Osborn)
Created By:
Stan Lee & Steve Ditko
First Appearance: The Amazing Spider-Man #31 (Dec. 1965)
Role: Turncoat Friend, Legacy Villain, Wacky Buddy
Villain Ranking: B-List
Group Affiliations: N/A
PL 10 (181)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 7 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 5 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+6)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 3 (+10)
Deception 6 (+8)
Expertise (Business) 3 (+8)
Expertise (Science) 4 (+9)
Intimidation 6 (+8)
Perception 5 (+7)
Technology 4 (+9)
"Glider Pilot" Vehicles 8 (+12) (Flaws: Limited to Goblin Gliders)

Advantages: 
All-Out Attack, Benefit (Wealth) 3, Diehard, Equipment 9 (Goblin Glider), Favored Environment, Fearless, Great Endurance, Improved Aim, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 6, Startle, Taunt

Powers:
"Altered Healing" Regeneration 2 (Feats: Regrowth) [3]

"Goblin Costume" (Flaws: Removable) [16]
"Electro-Circuitry Gloves" Blast 8 (16)
Protection 1 (1)
Immunity 2 (Chemicals) (2) -- (19 points)

"Goblin Weapon Array" (Flaws: Easily Removable -2) [21]
"Pumpkin Bomb- Blast" Blast 10 (Feats: Triggered- 1 Round) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (Diminished Range -1) (30) -- (35 points)
  • AE: "Pumpkin Bomb- Knock-Out Gas" Affliction 10 (Fort; Fatigued/Exhausted/Asleep) (Feats: Triggered) (Extras: Ranged, Area- 30ft. Burst) (Diminished Range -1) (30)
  • AE: "Pumpkin Bomb- Smoke" Concealment 4 (Feats: Triggered) (Extras: Area- 15ft. Cloud, Attack) (13)
  • AE: "Pumpkin Bomb- Hallucinogenic Gas" Affliction 10 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Transformed) (Feats: Triggered) (Extras: Ranged, Area- 15ft. Cloud) (Diminished Range -1) (30)
  • AE: "Spider-Sense Neutralizer" Nullify Sensory Powers 10 (Extras: Fort.Resistance +0, Continuous +3, Area- 15ft. Cloud) (Flaws: Fades, Limited to Spider-Sense) (30)
  • AE: "Razor-Bats" Blast 5 (Extras: Multiattack) (15)
Equipment:
"Goblin Glider"
(Medium; Strength 2, Defense 8, Toughness 6, Remote Control) (12)
Flight 6 (120 mph) (Flaws: Platform) (6)
"Heat-Seeking Missiles" Blast 10 (Feats: Homing 3) (23) -- (24)
  • AE: "Machine Guns" Blast 7 (Extras: Multiattack) (21) 
  • AE: "Blades" Damage 8 (8)
-- (32 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Missiles +10 (+10 Ranged Damage, DC 25)
Machine Guns +10 (+7 Ranged Damage, DC 22)
Electro-Gloves +10 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Pumpkin Blast +10 Area (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Pumpkin KO Gas +10 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 20)
Pumpkin Hallucinogens +10 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 20)
Spidey-Neutralizier +10 Area (+10 Nullify, DC 20)
Razor-Bats +10 (+5 Ranged Damage, DC 20)
All Accuracy Boosted by +2 When Fighting Spider-Man (+12 Unarmed, +12 Ranged)
Initiative +7

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (+13 vs. Spidey, DC 21-23), Parry +10 (+12 vs. Spidey, DC 21-22), Toughness +7 (+8 Costume), Fortitude +10, Will +6

Complications:
Motivation (Father's Love)- Harry is desperate for attention from his vile father Norman Osborn, and will do anything to gain acceptance with him.
Responsibility (Insane)- The Goblin Formula has driven a normal man insane- Harry is normally a good, if flighty and undependable person, yet becomes a vindictive and evil person when under the power of the Formula.
Power Loss (Goblin Formula)- If the Goblin Formula is ever neutralized, Harry's stats falter considerably, even his mental ones. His stats become: Strength 1, Stamina 1, Agility 0, Fighting 4, Dexterity 2 & Intelligence 3.
Relationship (Family)- Harry is the devoted father to young Normie, and loving husband to wife Liz Allan, though these relationships become ruined by his association with his father.
Relationship (Peter Parker)- Harry is best buds with Peter, and owes his life to Pete several times over.

Total: Abilities: 76 / Skills: 38--19 / Advantages: 28 / Powers: 41 / Defenses: 18 (181)

Harry- Unluckiest "Best Pal" Character Ever:
-Poor Harry. Poor, poor Harry. Initially being introduced as Pete's rich-kid college buddy (they quickly become friends once Harry sees past Peter's stand-offishness and realizes he's just worried about Aunt May, not being a snob), but his father is immediately introduced as the Green Goblin. While in college, he & Pete get into some standard college party hijinx, with some brain-achingly fuddy-duddy dialogue from Stan "The Man" Lee (who is entertaining to read, but rarely gets anywhere close to how actual people talk- "What's up, dad?" "What's crackin', pussycat?"- it's pretty much like "Totally Radical & Bodacious, DUDE" talk was for the '90s). However, Harry was likeable in a weird sort of way, dating Party Girl Mary Jane Watson while Pete went after Hot-Then-Cold Daddy's Girl Gwen Stacy. However, Harry was troubled.

-His relationship with his father was strained, and his belief that Peter kept "bailing" on him led him to seek solace with drugs, from cocaine to LSD. Yes, this was the famous "DRUGS!" storyline in Marvel Comics, where they willingly gave up the Comics Code for a bit, making their own Crowning Moment of Awesome, as comics finally started jumping into the modern era of social-based storytelling in a big way. It wasn't as realistic (Harry did the old "nearly jump off the roof" thing) or as gritty as Speedy getting hooked on smack over in Green Arrow/Green Lantern, but it sure SOLD a hell of a lot better- DC's book would get cancelled shortly afterwards.

-Harry would get better, then relapse, like a real drug addict would, MJ would dump him, and things would get worse when his father died fighting Spider-Man (after a breakdown caused by Harry's own self-destruction and overdosing). Hiding his dad's Goblin identity, Harry became obsessed himself, then became the SECOND Green Goblin. But in this role he would vanish and go into remission just like his daddy did- he'd get hypnotized or force himself to forget or something, so he'd be back in Spidey's good graces eventually.

Harry in Modern Times:
-After a point, he even married Peter's old flame, Liz Allan, and have a son named after Norman Osborn. Problem was, this was during the '90s era of Spidey, so all this craziness was going on, with Harry often at the side or centre of it, so he was never really happy. Finally, they just pulled the trigger and had Harry go nuts one last time and die after poisoning himself with the new Goblin Formula he made. At least he went out like a hero, snapping out of his insanity in time to save Peter, Mary Jane and little Normie, then collapsing. A friend of mine LOVES Harry as the Goblin, and considers this one of the absolute best Spider-Man stories.

-This was a pretty good story that gets much love today, but it had one REALLY bad side-effect: It was a furthering of a concept that'd been used since the '80s ad nauseum- the pain & agony inflicted upon Spider-Man's supporting cast that had eventually reached such a critical mass that he was left with NOBODY in his cast that wasn't completely-damaged aside from MJ, J. Jonah Jameson of all people, and Robbie Robertson. Liz Allan? Mentally destroyed by Harry's death. Harry? Dead. Gwen? Dead. Captain Stacy? Dead. Aunt May? Dead (for a bit), also frequently loses her loved ones. Jean DeWolff? Dead. Flash? Alcoholic. Betty Brant? Widow. IT JUST WENT ON LIKE THIS. This is part of why the '90s sucked for Spidey fans, especially after the Image Crew left him high and dry in the mid-90s, as he was now just this miserable loner sitting around with Mary Jane and Aunt May, growing more and more bitter, because he had no friends left. This assassination of his supporting cast (the best in all of comics in my opinion), hurt him as a character, and hurt the books creatively, and I don't think they've ever really recovered.

The Do-Nothing Return of Harry:
-Later on, after Mephisto steals Peter Parker's marriage, it turns out that Harry had his death faked by Mysterio & Norman (who has since come back to life), and... sorta just shows up again. He & Liz divorce (what'd SHE think of him disappearing for years?), then he ends up in a series of short-lived marriages. He nearly marries a woman named Lily Hollister, but she becomes Menace, a new, female Goblin. During Dark Reign, he becomes The American Son briefly, and fights his dad after he finds out Norman knocked-up Lily (later, it turns out that Harry IS the father). After some more nonsense (including fighting Gabriel, the son of Gwen Stacy & Norman Osborn, because Marvel STILL hasn't just retconned that stupid story away), Harry runs from New York to raise his son. So... even though he's not dead, Harry still kinda just ends up being messed around with.

Squinty Harry:
-Harry in the movies is actually more important than he tends to be in the comics- he was a huge force in the Raimi Trilogy, and featured in The Amazing Spider-Man 2. James Franco actually made his star power based off of his portrayal (though I found him rather forgettable, apparently he's quite the looker. Plus, he has friends in high places in Hollywood these days, owing to his run on Freaks & Geeks, a Doom Patrol Fandom-inspiring cult TV show by Judd Apatow), and was all set to make a big go of it... until his whole "Slacker Stoner"/"Modern-Day Hipster" act REALLY rubbed some people the wrong way, and I haven't seen him in anything for a while. Franco-Harry was one of numerous bad guys in the third of the Raimi films, to the movie's detriment- him going evil/vengeful against Peter, then Amnesiac (WHAT IS IT WITH GOBLINS AND THAT???), then apologetic, was a bit odd. Amazing-Harry was a bit weird and foregettable, being more of a drooling weirdo with an odd "The Osborn Family Dies Young" thing tossed in for no real reason, making the big Defining Moment of him killing Gwen rather weak.

Harry's Stats:
-So on to Harry's stats. He's basically his father, minus a dozen steps in every category- he's got nothing his father doesn't already have, but better. He's a worse melee fighter, ranged fighter, etc., and has fewer Skills, Advantages and mental stats. He's still no slouch, of course, almost matching Spidey's PL when they fight, AND he's really quite expensive thanks to all those Goblin tools. The Goblin Formula makes him smarter, but he's never on Norman's level- his best invention was the second Goblin Formula, which of course POISONED HIM TO DEATH, so he's not exactly high-up on the Science scale, if you get my drift.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Shocker

Post by RainOnTheSun »

Jabroniville wrote: Sun May 14, 2017 9:44 pm

The New Don of New York:
-This reputation as a loser made him a PERFECT fit for The Superior Foes of Spider-Man, which used him as the ultimate pathetic sad-sack, desperate to be taken seriously, but being too stupid and unlucky to make it happen. He's easily-led by more-confident supervillains (Boomerang, the new Beetle), gets betrayed by Boomerang and nearly killed, and can barely manage to survive when he accidentally finds the mysterious "Head of Silvermane" that's been the Plot Maguffin for half the series (it was just a lie invented by Boomerang, but turned out to be a REAL THING). And then he gets the greatest moment in his entire life, as he ONE-SHOTS THE PUNISHER, saves dozens of mobsters' lives, and has the entire New York Mafia bowing down to him as their New Don. If that isn't made permanent canon, I'm going to lose my shit.
Christ, I gotta read that book.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Chameleon! Electro! The Shocker! Goblins!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

The Playstation 1 Spiderman games had some pretty crazy things in them, like the final boss of the first game was, get this: DOCTOR OCTOPUS WITH THE CARNAGE SYMBIOTE. That's just scary. The final boss of the second game was just Electro super-charged with some kind of special device.
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Tattooedman
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Tombstone! The Enforcers! The Chameleon! Electro!)

Post by Tattooedman »

Really enjoying the Spidey builds, as like so many others he's one of my favorite characters. I started collecting right at the beginning of Mark Bagely's (not sure I spelled that right, but I'm fresh out of bed & don't care) run on the series & I've always loved his work - clean lines and a good understanding of action shots (though he does love weird goggles a bit too much I think). It got me hooked and kept me reading through the majority of the 90s.

My biggest problem with the Spider-Man comics was that it got to the point that a person had to collect EVERY FRICKING TITLE to understand what was going on in the one book you wanted to read! (add to that the fact that most other books eventually followed that example and you now get one of the reasons I stopped collecting comics, but that's another story).
Ares wrote: Sat May 13, 2017 6:23 pm Electro is, I agree, someone who could be the iconic "generic supervillain", right up there with the Flash Rogues. He's just a guy who stumbled onto some powers, and with a typical thug mentality, decided to use those powers to just take what he wants and build himself a criminal rep. Which, lets face it, if you gave the average criminal Luke Cage's superstrength and immunity to bullets, the first thing they'd do is just walk into a bank, rip the vault open, and walk out with as much money as they could carry, and laugh when the police try to shoot them. Supervillains using powers that they could make legit livings off of to rob banks is, to me, one of the most realistic aspects of comics. If these guys had the intelligence and imagination to do something with their abilities, they wouldn't be crooks in the first place.

I will also say that I always kind of liked Electro, partially because I've always though electricity and lightning were cool powers. And he is just perfect as a simple jobber villain, which is why I roll my eyes whenever they try to add 'depth' to the character. His mother destroyed his self-confidence, he wants to be normal, blah blah blah. The guy is an asshole who got superpowers and decided to be a supervillain. That's all he needs, whether as a one-shot villain for a story or as part of a villain team. He's one of the perfect journeyman supervillains. He could fight anyone.

As for the costume, I agree, attempts to change it are quickly reverted, because no matter what you do, nothing will look as good or right as the starfish lightning mask. The thing has style and looks good in a superhero way, which is the only way that matters. It's not like the Flash having lightning wings on the side of his head really look "good", but they're an iconic part of his costume. So they just need to leave the damn mask alone.

If I really ever felt the need to try and 'update' Electro's look, I'd probably go with something like this:

Image

It's a regular suit where the lightning patterns on it are caused by him powering up, and the starfish mask is created by the lightning playing across his face. There, you've updated the look while keeping the classic appearance in check.
I'm with Ares on Electro - both how he's handled & his costume. Personally I really like the suggested look Ares offered up, I think it's a good mix of Electro's "classic" look with a modern twist.

As for the Goblins - I grew up reading about everything Norman did in old comics I found in various places, and I liked him as an older, dark mirror kind of villain to Peter. I never did care for how Harry was handled, I always got the feeling they wanted to keep the Green Goblin a threat but how they went about it wasn't good as they kept flip-flopping on what to do with him. Personally I think they should have just had him go bugnuts & be THE bad guy to Spider-Man and stuck to it (because they're never going to make everyone happy so the writers & editors should simply focus on making a good story IMO).

Also, I'm one of the few fans of Phil Ulrich. I thought a heroic legacy to the Green Goblin was an interesting concept. Too bad it came out when it did, as that period in time was bad for small, tangentical titles.

I did like the Hobgoblin in idea - a legacy to the Green Goblin, but not direct. How it has ended up? I'm less than impressed to say the least, and I'm not even going to get into what the writers did to poor Phil.
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:45 pm
LOl- "The Tattooed Man"? What kind of ABSOLUTE DILDO would refer to himself as "The Tattooed Man" :P!?!
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Chameleon! Electro! The Shocker! Goblins!)

Post by scc »

What? No stats for the shockermobile? Great run here. Love Spidey's rogue gallery for the most part.
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