Jab’s Builds! (Nightmare Creatures/Circus! Lawnmower Man! Metroid!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Jabroniville
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Pumpkinhead

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

PUMPKINHEAD- Terrordrome Version
Role:
Demonic Monster
Movie Series: Pumpkinhead
PL 9 (94)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 1
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE -2

Skills:
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+10)
Initimidation 14 (+12)
Perception 6 (+7)
Ranged Combat (Earthquake) 8 (+8)
Stealth 2 (+3)

Advantages: 
None

Murderous Fighting Style: 
Accurate Attack (Weak), Daze (Intimidation), Extraordinary Effort (Unleashed), Fascination (Intimidation), Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Chosen Weapon) 2, Improved Hold, Improved Trip (Throw), Power Attack (Power), Startle, Withstand Damage (Block)

Powers:
"Grab Moves" Strength-Damage +2 (Feats: Improved Critical, +2 to Hit Opponents Who Parried Last Turn) (4) -- [6]
  • AE: "Anti-Air Grab" Strength-Damage +2 (Feats: Improved Critical, +2 to Hit Jumping Opponents) (4)
  • AE: "Earthquake Stomp" Blast 4 (Flaws: Limited to Grounded Opponents) (Reduced Defenses -1) (2)
Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Grabs +8 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Earthquake Stomp +8 (+4 Ranged Damage, DC 19)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +8, Fortitude +8, Will +4

Complications:
Vulnerable (The Ties That Bind)- Pumpkinhead is bound to a human host....if that host is injured or kill then he himself is injured or killed.
Motivation (Get Out Of The Way)- Pumpkinhead will immediately seek out those he's been raised to seek vengeance on and will ignore anyone else....unless they happen to get in his way.
Prejudice (Obviously he's not going to be able to pass for human)- I mean some of the other killers and monsters are pushing it here, but seriously Pumpkinhead is not gonna pass for human.
Weakness (Predictability)- These guys cannot simply "spam" out the same attack over and over again, as the opponent will expect the attacks, and be ready for them (and a counterattack). The third time he tries the same technique (or same combo of techniques) in a short span, they will be at -2 to Accuracy, AND to their Active Defenses in that round. All will decrease by 2 every successive round the same move is done.

Total: Abilities: 48 / Skills: 32--16 / Advantages: 0 + 10 / Powers: 6 / Defenses: 14 (94)

PUMPKINHEAD- Movie Version
Role:
Demonic Monster
Movie Series: Pumpkinhead
PL 10 (96)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE -2

Skills:
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+10)
Initimidation 14 (+12)
Perception 6 (+7)
Ranged Combat (Earthquake) 8 (+8)
Stealth 2 (+3)

Advantages: 
Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Hold, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Startle, Withstand Damage

Powers:
"Unkillable" Protection 2 (Extras: Impervious 7) [9]

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +10 (+4 Impervious), Fortitude +8, Will +4

Complications:
Vulnerable (The Ties That Bind)- Pumpkinhead is bound to a human host....if that host is injured or kill then he himself is injured or killed.
Motivation (Get Out Of The Way)- Pumpkinhead will immediately seek out those he's been raised to seek vengeance on and will ignore anyone else....unless they happen to get in his way.
Prejudice (Obviously he's not going to be able to pass for human)- I mean some of the other killers and monsters are pushing it here, but seriously Pumpkinhead is not gonna pass for human.

Total: Abilities: 50 / Skills: 32--16 / Advantages: 7 / Powers: 9 / Defenses: 14 (96)

HalloweenJack's Notes:
-This N'Garai outcast comes to us from Stan Winston....and admittedly the first movie is pretty good. That's probably a trope “The first one is good”.

-The basic plot is about Ed Harley (played by Lance Henrikssen). Harley is a single father raising his five year old son out in the boonies. He's shattered when his son is accidentally killed by some city kids goofing around on their dirt bikes. Harley swears revenge and will go to any lengths to get it.

-That's convenient as there's tell of an old witch by the name of Haggis (how revolting) out even deeper in the sticks. Haggis will grant Harley revenge, but first he has to go to a nearby pumpkin patch and dig something up for her. When he brings it back she cuts him and allows his blood to fall on the desiccated remains that he dug up, which happens to be local legend Pumpkinhead. The big beastie sets out on a beeline to kill those responsible for his son's death.

-Now here's the twist. First off, those city kids? Well after much debate about their options they actually decide to turn themselves in and face justice for what they've wrought! Added to this is that Harley sees every death through the demon's eyes when it kills one of them. It's horrible and he demands Haggis call the monster off....but she neither will nor can do that.

-And it isn't as if Pumpkinhead can be fought off either. The demon is amazingly strong, tossing a dirt bike over a house and just laughs off gunshots and even a flamethrower. But Harley figures out the monster's weakness... himself. Since he's bound to Pumpkinhead, any pain he feels it feels (and there's the really creepy realization that the monster is starting to resemble him facially near the end). So Harley does the right thing and kills himself which also destroys the monster. Unfortunately, Haggis comes and claims Harley's body...as the next time Pumpkinhead is summoned it will be using Harley's remains.

-There were a couple of sequels...none of which were any good. The second one isn't even Pumpkinhead but rather his son (in fact that movie is only notable for the fact that The Spoony One did a review of the VIDEO GAME ADAPTATION...and for grown up Soleil Moon-Frye making one hot goth chick). The later movies went back to the basics, even bringing back Ed Harley's ghost to try and warn others not to make his mistakes.

-Pumpkinhead is a real brick. Big, gaunt, kinda slow moving, but inevitable. You're not going to hurt him. And while he may seem unintelligent....he has a sort of cunning. He plays with his victims, at one point waving a dying girl's body around like a puppet knowing that her hiding friends can see him doing that. He even chuckles when the flamethrower gambit fails.

Jab's Notes:
Jeepers, another complete unknown to me. I've never even HEARD of this movie, much less the character in it. Pumpkinhead is a gigantic grappler, and easily the largest character in the game. This pushes him to +8 damage- higher than even Jason Voorehees.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HalloweenJack
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Lilith! Blackout! The Tall Man! Leatherface!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

little note: Leatherface's real name has varied from Jedidiah Sawyer or sometimes just 'Bubba' or 'Junior' in the original series and Thomas Hewitt in the remake. Forgot to also mention that TCM The Next Generation was the first movie for both Matthew McConaughey and Renee Zellwegger (and if you look closely enough former WWF/E Diva Debra McMichael as a police officer). 2017's Leatherface also apparently has Lili Taylor starring in it as Leatherface's mother.
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HalloweenJack
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Lilith! Blackout! The Tall Man! Leatherface!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

wow...Pumpkinhead gets sheer PL 10. Nice.
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HalloweenJack
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Lilith! Blackout! The Tall Man! Leatherface!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

Trailer Park: Halloween Edition


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAA6NxcwVOs


well that's all of 'em
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HalloweenJack
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Lilith! Blackout! The Tall Man! Leatherface!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

Trailer Park: Texas Chainsaw Massacre Edition


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs3981DoINw The Texas Chainsaw Massacre (1973)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjdf6DSHdM4 The Texas Chainsaw Massacre 2


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY7n9IKerag Leatherface: The Texas Chainsaw Massacre III (and I can't decide whether this trailer is stupid or awesome. It's like Matter Eater Lad)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqAIGhNprck Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Next Generation (with Gunnar Hansen as Lt. Commander Data)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mra_Z3cpGCM The Texas Chainsaw Massacre (2003)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYbrKxpx0co The Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Beginning


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75TvtJIbbNY Texas Chainsaw 3D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H57fAoIlAzQ Leatherface
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HalloweenJack
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Lilith! Blackout! The Tall Man! Leatherface!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

Trailer Park: Pumpkinhead Edition



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqJ8Teiv6YY Pumpkinhead


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIRdR3oKoE0 Pumpkinhead II: Blood Wings


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1k2GhVB4Wg Pumpkinhead: Ashes To Ashes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW4b2KLR7Xg Pumpkinhead: Blood Feud
MissRo
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Lilith! Blackout! The Tall Man! Leatherface!)

Post by MissRo »

Love that Pumpkinhead build, Jab!
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Lilith! Blackout! The Tall Man! Leatherface!)

Post by Jabroniville »

HalloweenJack wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:27 pm wow...Pumpkinhead gets sheer PL 10. Nice.
The movie version is PL 9 on offense, but PL 10 on defense, since you spoke highly of his defensive capabilities. Since I've never seen the guy, I had to go entirely on your info :).
Jabroniville
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Chucky

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

The non-scarred one is more horrifying.

CHUCKY (Charles Lee Ray)- Terrordrome Version
Role:
Evil Doll, Fast Guy
Movie Series: Child's Play
PL 9 (131)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA -- AGILITY 6
FIGHTING 14 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Close Combat (Knife) 2 (+16)
Expertise (Voodoo) 7 (+7)
Expertise (Criminal) 4 (+10)
Initimidation 4 (+5)
Perception 5 (+8)
Ranged Combat (Nail Gun) 2 (+12)
Stealth 4 (+10)

Advantages:
Agile Feint, Equipment (Knife +1), Evasion, Ranged Attack 6

Murderous Fighting Style:
Accurate Attack (Weak), Daze (Intimidation), Extraordinary Effort (Unleashed), Fascination (Intimidation), Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Chosen Weapon) 2, Improved Hold, Improved Trip (Throw), Power Attack (Power), Startle, Withstand Damage (Block)

Powers:
"Roll" Strength-Damage +2 (Feats: Improved Critical) (3) -- [4]
AE: "Multi-Stab" Strength-Damage +2 (Extras: Multiattack 4) (Reduced Defenses -2) (2)

Features 1: Adds Weapon-Damage to Special Moves [1]
"Living Doll"
Immunity 30 (Fortitude Effects) [30]
Protection 3 [3]

Offense:
Unarmed +13 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Roll +13 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Knife +15 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Nail Gun +12 (+4 Ranged Damage, DC 19)
Initiative +6

Defenses:
Dodge +14 (DC 24), Parry +15 (DC 25), Toughness +3, Fortitude --, Will +6

Complications:
Enemy (Rick Steiner)
Prejudice (Living Doll)- Obviously he can't pass for human- Obviously.
Relationship (Family)- Chucky has a real love-hate relationship with Tiffany, who tends to be the lesser of two evils. I mean he loves her, but damn if she doesn't grate on him at times. His relationship with Glen/Glenda is much better by comparison. He loves trying to teach Glen to kill and is awestruck at his ability to do so....though Glen is only inadvertently causing death as he's really very sweet and peaceful. When glen finally does snap and is the one to take his pop down what does Chucky do? Smiles and says “THAT A BOY SON! THAT A BOY!”
Motivation ("I Gotta Get Out Of This Body"...or not)- So yeah, Chucky is determined to get into a nice new body....at least until Seed of Chucky when writer/director Don Mancini figured it was time to crap or get off the pot. Chucky has a lucid moment and realizes that as a human, you get sick, you get old, you die but as a killer doll? He's infamous!
Responsibility (Unfinished Business)- Chucky racks up a lot of it..he always goes back to take care of people and things from his past. Curse Of Chucky was even about him knocking off members of a family he had begun on when he was still human. And he even tried to go back and take care of a now adult Andy.....though when he climbed out of the box he had mailed himself in Chucky found himself looking into the barrel of a shotgun. “Andy! NOOO!”.
Motivation (The Heart of Damballah)- This trinket can get you into a new body guaranteed.
Weakness (Predictability)- These guys cannot simply "spam" out the same attack over and over again, as the opponent will expect the attacks, and be ready for them (and a counterattack). The third time he tries the same technique (or same combo of techniques) in a short span, they will be at -2 to Accuracy, AND to their Active Defenses in that round. All will decrease by 2 every successive round the same move is done.

Total: Abilities: 48 / Skills: 28--14 / Advantages: 9 + 10 / Powers: 38 / Defenses: 12 (131)

CHUCKY (Charles Lee Ray)- Movie Version
Role:
Evil Doll
Movie Series: Child's Play
PL 6 (96)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA -- AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Close Combat (Knife) 2 (+16)
Expertise (Voodoo) 7 (+7)
Expertise (Criminal) 4 (+10)
Initimidation 4 (+5)
Perception 5 (+8)
Stealth 4 (+10)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Daze (Intimidation), Equipment (Knife +1), Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Knife) 2, Ranged Attack 6, Startle

Powers:
"Living Doll"
Immunity 30 (Fortitude Effects) [30]
Protection 3 [3]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Knife +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +3, Fortitude --, Will +6

Complications:
Enemy (Rick Steiner)
Prejudice (Living Doll)- Obviously he can't pass for human- Obviously.
Relationship (Family)- Chucky has a real love-hate relationship with Tiffany, who tends to be the lesser of two evils. I mean he loves her, but damn if she doesn't grate on him at times. His relationship with Glen/Glenda is much better by comparison. He loves trying to teach Glen to kill and is awestruck at his ability to do so....though Glen is only inadvertently causing death as he's really very sweet and peaceful. When glen finally does snap and is the one to take his pop down what does Chucky do? Smiles and says “THAT A BOY SON! THAT A BOY!”
Motivation ("I Gotta Get Out Of This Body"...or not)- So yeah, Chucky is determined to get into a nice new body....at least until Seed of Chucky when writer/director Don Mancini figured it was time to crap or get off the pot. Chucky has a lucid moment and realizes that as a human, you get sick, you get old, you die but as a killer doll? He's infamous!
Responsibility (Unfinished Business)- Chucky racks up a lot of it..he always goes back to take care of people and things from his past. Curse Of Chucky was even about him knocking off members of a family he had begun on when he was still human. And he even tried to go back and take care of a now adult Andy.....though when he climbed out of the box he had mailed himself in Chucky found himself looking into the barrel of a shotgun. “Andy! NOOO!”.
Motivation (The Heart of Damballah)- This trinket can get you into a new body guaranteed.

Total: Abilities: 30 / Skills: 26--13 / Advantages: 12 / Powers: 33 / Defenses: 8 (96)

HalloweenJack's Notes:
-Chucky is sort of the anti-trope here. See after rewatching it for the first time in years....the first movie isn't all that good. It's your typical killer doll movie with a serial killer swapping his soul into a lifeless form (Devil Doll did this over 20 years earlier), and despite being a modest success MGM dropped the rights to the franchise to Universal pretty quickly. That's where things get interesting.

-Anywho, Chucky is Charles Lee Ray (played by Brad Douriff), a Chicago serial killer who's just been mortally wounded by a cop (Chris 'Prince Humperdink' Sarandon). Realizing he's dying, and being a practitioner of Voodoo, Charles here realizes that if he doesn't transfer his soul into another body soon he's sunk. The only thing he can find in the store where he's taken refuge to fit the bill is that Christmas's hottest toy....The Good Guy doll (think an amalgamation of My Buddy, Cabbage Patch Kids, and Teddy Ruxpin). Charles, or Chucky, gets his soul in there and soon ends up in the possession of little Andy Barclay. Shenanigans are afoot.

-It's a sweet deal for Chucky at first, but after a while he starts to notice he's feeling pain again. After consulting with his old mentor he finds that the longer he's in that doll's body the more difficult it will be to get his soul back out, and after a while he won't be able to, period. Added to that wrinkle is that Chucky can only transfer his soul into the body of the first person he told who he really was to. That being Andy. Shenanigans.

-That said the sequel with Chucky after Andy while he's in foster care isn't that bad, even ending with Chucky having been in the doll's body too long to do the transfer and just going totes mental when he finds out. He's stopped but of course comes back in the third with a new body.....wherein he tries again to get his soul into Andy (now a teenager) but decides to instead try and insert himself in a younger boy named Tyler (ew) on the assumption that this being a new body means that when he tells Tyler his identity he can just get in there. An assertion that is never proven by the way. These two movies were a step forward and then a sad step back.

-By the time of Bride of Chucky, things start to get fun....sort of devolving into an irreverent parody of itself with the occasional heartfelt moment. See Chucky's ex Tiffany (played by my number one celeb I'd love to, and have permission from the wife, to do Jennifer Tilly) is obsessed with the doll murders and resurrects Chucky on the assumption that he was going to propose to her before he died. Turns out the ring she had found was just a stolen item he was going to fence. They turn on one another and Chucky ends up killing Tiffany and transferring her soul into another doll. Now needing an escape from their plastic prisons, Chucky brings up the Heart of Damballah...a mystical McGuffin he was buried with that can put their souls into a pair of new bodies without that pesky secret loophole. Problem is it's buried with his body. But hey, they've found a nice pair of crazy kids who they'd hate to split up if you get my meaning and they can just rope them to Chucky's grave...voila.

-This movie actually has moments where you forget you're watching a pair of animatronic dolls and you start to really get them as characters. For example, when those crazy kids are getting married in an all night chapel, Chucky and Tiffany are sitting in a van with Tiffany sighing. I'm going to paraphrase but it's mostly accurate.
Tiffany: You know...when I was a little girl I always wanted to get married and have a big spread in the paper. Everyone dressed up and looking nice, not your usual mugshot.

Chucky: ….Tiff....I...uh....I want you to know that....I'm sorry. For everything.

Tiffany (smiling): Oh it's okay. I always wanted to travel. And I mean....look at us now!

(Both of them start to laugh at the ridiculousness of their situation)
-Tiffany even does a bit of a face turn later when she realizes that Jesse and Jade (those wacky kids) are truly meant to be together and though she and Chucky are in love....well it's never going to be an ideal situation.

-Seed of Chucky takes it a step further with the two resurrected in Hollywood, tending to their child (voiced by Billy Boyd) and deciding to insert their souls into rapper Redman and...get this....Jennifer Tilly the actress!
Tiffany: Oh I love her! She's such a great actress!

Chucky: Yeah, but that VOICE!

Tiffany: I know! She sounds just like an ANGEL!
-It's made all the more amusing by Tilly, who was going to sleep with Redman to get the part of the Virgin Mary in a movie, being surprised by Tiffany and later brushing it off as a dream where her guardian angel appeared to her warning her not to do it! That and there are so many Hollywood references it's crazy. Even references to Bound. Tilly's agent is calling her as Chucky is restraining Tilly and Tiffany is on the phone acting like Tilly (“Jennifer? Are you screaming?” “Oh no...Bound is on and it's that scene where Gina Gershon is fingering me.”).

-And there's the fact that their child has a split personality...the good male side being named Glen and the evil female side being....Glenda.
Glen: But....dad....the TV says that violence is bad.

Chucky: No NONONONO son.....VIOLINS are bad. VIOLINS. That damn screeching music is going to ruin the whole country!
Yeah I've gushed. I'd say those two are guilty pleasure movies....but I don't feel guilty.

Curse of Chucky is a more straight laced return to horror, but still is pretty decent. And as of this writing the Chucky series is the only one of these franchises still pumping out movies with Cult of Chucky coming this fall.

As for Chucky himself....he's got average intelligence, though he does know his Voodoo lore really well and can do the soul switcheroo and even used a voodoo doll to kill a guy ONCE. He's not very strong but he's sneaky and prone to taking someone off guard. He's good at it too, especially when paired with Tiffany. They just have a knack. And he's got some pretty awesome damage soak too, taking all sorts of damage as the movies go on. And if it all goes to pot, he can just go into Barbie Mode and play possum.

Jab's Notes: This got a lot of play among kids my age in the '80s, but I always mixed it up with Problem Child, which I think was about... problem children. These were the classic "Bad Movies" I wasn't supposed to watch, and I never did. Wrestling fans find the character infamous largely because of the INSANE angle WCW ran where Chucky (like... the actual evil doll from the movie) taunted Rick Steiner on-screen, which is only marginally less-stupid than the time F*CKING ROBOCOP came out to aid Sting against the Four Horsemen.

-I mainly remember it now because they added the Jennifer Tilly puppet, and I only remember her because of that scene in "Bound", because HOLY GOD. That's like the Holy Grail of movie nude scenes, and it's like 15 seconds of nudity, tops. Yet I dunno if any sex scene, hardcore or otherwise, can match it. Seriously, put the hottest porn ever on next to a clip of this running on a loop 97 times, and I say it's even at worst.

-For his stats, I made him the smallest, weakest, but most accurate, member of the cast. I left out the "Shrinking" he'd probably need, because I find that annoying to deal with for something that isn't really a major "Power", per se- it's just a descriptor and something that makes him stand out.

-Statistically, he is one of the characters most-changed between the movies and the game- Movie Chucky would stand no chance against Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers- in the game, he's upgraded into the Fast Guy.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Lilith! Blackout! The Tall Man! Leatherface!)

Post by Jabroniville »

L-Space wrote: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:16 pm It's cool to see classic horror characters get writes up. Regardless of how I feel about current horror movies, I'll always have a place in my heart for 70's/80's horror and slasher films.

I may have to check out Phantasm again. I've only ever seen bits and pieces of it and kind of wrote it off, but HalloweenJack's description of it makes me want to give it another go.
A friend of mine insists he's dragged constantly to horror movies by his wife (who he jokes is afraid of EVERYTHING). He says they've become the same movie every single time- "Jump Scares", "Creepy Kid" stuff instead of slashers, Body Horror, etc. I think Ringu/Ring set off a horde of imitators.
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Ares
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Lilith! The Lilin! Anton Hellgate! Blackout!)

Post by Ares »

Man, a guy leaves for a vacation and suddenly I've got a lot of catch up reading to do. It's almost like this place can exist without me.

And while I don't want to derail the thread, because a Horror Movie Crossover Game is all kinds of awesome, I do feel the need to respond to the following points:
Scots Dragon wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:33 am
Ares wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:27 am Though it's hilarious hearing Jim stop a story to avoid controversy. Can you imagine the absolute bitch fit the current Marvel writers would have if they were told to keep their political leanings, ideology, identity politics, and similar stuff out of comics?
Well without it we wouldn't have... um... any of the comics we have now, actually. People tend to forget that the Jewish immigrants-
No. Let me stop you right there. No. Most comic fans do not downplay the importance several members of the Jewish community, all of whom were straight white men, made to the industry, especially the early days when Jerry and Joe created Superman, or Jack and Stan created guys like the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Thor, the Hulk and Captain America.

You know what they didn’t do, tho? Beat people over the head with their politics. Superman was a guy who kept innocent people from being executed, stopped kidnappers, etc. Of the heroes mentioned, only Ben Grimm was Jewish. The focus was not on making paper-thin allegories to the Trump administration or playing identity politics, but on creating good stories about heroes being heroic.
Nothing new under the sun, after all.
I agree. The new run of SJW Marvel is very much akin to previous Moral Guardian Outrage Culture that perhaps started from a well intended place but ultimately lead to disaster. Things like Prohibition that tried to keep people sober and instead created organized crime. The HUAC trials that tried to fight Communism and instead destroyed many people’s lives. The various moral busy-bodies that condemned comics, roleplaying games, rock n roll, video games and other forms of entertainment.

Nothing new at all, just the same types of people being holier than thou with whatever ideology lets them think they’re the heroes while they play at being villains.
Scots Dragon wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:54 am
Jabroniville wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:50 am Though I'm with Ares in deriding how a lot of modern comics has become way too strict and dogmatic in its biases. Sure, almost all art is based around the creator showing people how they see the world in some way, but looking back at the '60s, '70s and '80s, writers were actually capable of things like subtlety and not being overly preachy. Compare Chris Claremont's openly feminist Carol Danvers to the stuff she'd doing nowadays, and it's STILL night and day. Going over the top only creates a backlash, and (probably more importantly, if you're a comic book company) loses sales.
Except that the story that's lost most sales for Marvel lately has been Secret Empire, while the push towards diverse books has resulted in a far greater readership, with the explicitly feminist and positively-portrayed Muslim Ms. Marvel being a pretty clear example of that.
.
.
.
.

Sorry, I don’t want to come off as an asshole, but I literally had to take a moment to stop laughing. Because that’s just a whole lot of “no” there.

Secret Empire is impossible to judge at this point, because rumors are circulating that Marvel is over-shipping copies of the books to stores in order to over-inflate their sales numbers. But the SJW books? No, those are not selling well.

Let’s look at some of the poster books for SJW Marvel, all taken from current year:

America
- March - #1 – 43,592
- April - #2 – 23,987
- May - #3 – 16,262
- June - #4 - 12,624

Unstoppable Wasp
- January- #1 - 37,415
- February- #2 - 16,292
- March- #3 - 12,324
- April- #4 - 9,780
- May- #5 - 9,013
-June - #6 - 8,051

Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur
January - #15 - 10,966
February - #16 - 8,440
March- #17 - 8,273
April- #18 - 7,966
May- #19 - ????
June- #20 - 7,731

Squirrel Girl
January - #16 - 17,569
February - #17 - 11,898
March - #18 - 17,765
April - #19 - 11,074
May - #20 - 10,999
June - #21 - 10,937

Ms. Marvel
January - #14 - 24,006
February- #15 - 19,870
March- #16 - 19,172
April- #17 - 20,881
May- #18 - 18,271
June- #19 - 17,907

Captain Marvel
January - #1 - 48,519
February- #2 - 24,172
March- #3 - 28,649
April- #4 - 17,893
May- #5 - 17,164
June- #6 - 20,870

These books are losing thousands of readers a month on average, and some of them are only being shored up by the fact that they’re involved with the current Secret Empire event. Between this, the constant pushing of politics and the way the creators at Marvel treat the fans with open hostility (going full on Sarkeesian and labeling any criticism sent their way as trolling), it’s no wonder Marvel books are overall suffering.
It's also telling how people call out supposed left-wing biases, but very few people are willing to call out the identity politics inherent in making nearly every single character a straight white male.
Because what we need is to put quotas on character creation. “Listen up guys, from now on, if you create a new hero, we need them to be evenly split between men and women, we need most of the men to be black, latino or Asian, and we want most of the women to be lesbian. No, I don’t care what stories you wanted to tell or how you envisioned the character, this is how it needs to be.”

You can’t force diversity on an industry, or you get the current mess where an unsettling number of comics are designed simply to virtue signal and appeal to SJW types outside of the industry who have no interest in comics.

Diversity in comics has been a thing since Wonder Woman, Mary Marvel and Hawkgirl appeared in the 1940’s, showing that women could be heroes just as effectively as men, in a time when doing so was a far more radical idea. Characters like Supergirl, Batgirl, She-Hulk, Storm, Black Panther, Black Lightning, Blade, John Stewart, the Falcon, War Machine, Katana, Carol Danvers, Luke Cage, Misty Knight, Shang Chi, Wiccan, Hulkling, Northstar, Apollo, Midnighter, Batwoman, Blue Beetle III, Miles Morales, these were all created by straight white men, and they came about naturally because these were the characters for the stories they wanted to tell.

So yeah, the idea of character quotas on creating characters is not only creatively bankrupt, but reprehensible. Fuck that noise.
Or the identity politics inherent in the complaints which are made whenever a given character is presented as anything other than a straight white male.


And you know why the majority of said complaints are made? Because the characters in question are assuming the identities of established heroes, OR are behaving in ways that would be considered offensive if they were portrayed by straight white males.

Comic fans have usually objected when their characters are replaced by someone else, and usually the only way to mitigate the outcry is to have it done by an established character. John Stewart replacing Hal Jordan, James Rhodes replacing Tony Stark, Jaime Reyes replacing Ted Kord, fans were pretty vocal in their initial dislike of said changes. But if had nothing to do with racism, because the fan outcry was just as vocal when Kyle Rayner replaced Hal Jordan, Artemis replaced Wonder Woman, Jean Paul Valley replaced Bruce Wayne, Ben Riley replaced Peter Parker, etc.

The problem wasn’t the race or gender of the character replacing the hero, it’s that the character the fans had loved was being replaced with someone else. But in cases like Rhodey replacing Tony or Sam replacing Steve, it was an established character the fans knew and liked doing the replacing. And while the fans griped, generally it was understood that it was only going to be a temporary change. When USAgent replaced Steve or Azreal replaced Bruce, the whole point of the story was to show that replacing the hero in question was a BAD IDEA, and that the original hero truly “owned” their heroic identity.

And when the change was intended to be permanent, well, fan outcry was persistent. Fans were writing Mark Waid to bring Barry Allen back almost a decade after Wally had assumed the role of Flash. Hal Jordan fans fought tooth and nail to have him brought back after Kyle replaced him for a long time.

It also doesn’t help that this pretty much only happens straight white males. The only time I can think of when a straight white male replaced someone who wasn’t a straight white male was when Hank Pym briefly became the Wasp to honor the then dead Janet Van Dyne, but that’s a pretty rare case.

SJW Marvel not only takes these aspects, but ramps it up making the replacements brand new characters who just assume an old hero’s identity rather than standing on their own merit, and often make it worse by inserting politics into the mess.

It’s not impossible to make work, both Jaime Reyes and Miles Morales have proven popular characters in their own right, but both completely lack politics in their stories (with Miles even pointing out he hates how people obsess over his race), and both honored the legacy of the heroes that came before them.

Modern Marvel tho? You get things like Riri Williams behaving like an idiot yet being praised every issue, even though her origin is stealing from the people who granted her a scholarship and demanded that she be oppressed. You get things like Lady Thor writing all the men as misogynists while having her supposedly being better with the hammer than the actual Thor. You get “Ask me about my feminist agenda” and “Unsolicited opinions about Israel”. And you get the ugly mess that is America Chavez’s book.

All of which results in stories like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItN7cMY ... 8622624897

So yeah. SJW Marvel is toxic in the extreme.
Scots Dragon wrote: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:41 pm This is something that DC Comics has always done better. There aren't really many forgotten ethnically marginalised characters outside of the to-be-revived Milestone Comics stuff, but characters like Cassandra Cain and John Stewart and Kate Kane not only stick around but have become arguably just as if not more iconic than some of the characters they were filling in for. I mean, who even really remembers the original heterosexual Kathy Kane all that well?
Well, the original Kathy Kane was a short-lived character who was killed off in the 70’s, so it’s not really a surprise that she only really showed up in Batman: The Brave and the Bold.
Who wouldn't have preferred a John Stewart Green Lantern film to the Hal Jordan mess?
Not to knock John, because a lot of good work was done with him in the DCAU, but there are plenty of people that would have preferred to see Hal Jordan in a Green Lantern movie, at least the first film. The problem with that movie wasn’t that it was about Hal Jordan, the problem was that it was a badly done film. Compare with, say, the First Flight animated film that was actually pretty good.

Though honestly, a Green Lantern film would be the easiest way to appease a lot of people. Have Abin Sur crash, but Earth be unique in that there are multiple Green Lantern candidates, with Hal, John, Guy and Kyle all getting selected at once, and then having to basically go through GL boot camp to see which one gets to be Earth’s GL. Only they each have their own strengths, and they all wind up as GLs by the end. Problem solved.
Who doesn't utterly adore the work done with Cassandra Cain?
I loved the original run with Cassandra as Batgirl, though the new creative team they brought on board was lackluster. And what was done with her later, making her into a villain and such, was a crime. But she never really quite fit the Batgirl role. For whatever reason, the Batgirl identity has not been as easy to pass on as the Robin identity has. Barbara Gordon is pretty much the “iconic” Batgirl, so it’s better if Cassandra has her own identity, ditto with Spoiler.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Tall Man! Leatherface! Michael Myers! Pumpkinhead!)

Post by Ares »

Scots Dragon wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:54 am Especially in a day and age where Muslims are being met with unwarranted hostility over the actions of a group of extremists largely active in the Middle East, despite the fact that white supremacist violence is far more common and a far greater source of terrorist actions in the west.
M4C8 wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:34 pm Hostility towards Muslims is not unwarranted, the terrorist atrocities across the world (Killing over 32,000 people in 2014 alone) the organised sexual abuse rings, and the rise in acid attacks and various other imports from their 'Rich' culture have lead to people feeling unsafe in their own countries, many for the first time in their lives. Yes of course these events are due to a minority but the unwillingness of the Muslim community to address these very real issues and the immediate accusations of racism towards anyone who does just leads to more division and distrust.
I just want to say this.

There's nothing inherently wrong with portraying a terrorist as being Muslim or Middle Eastern, given how they make up a large percentage of terrorists world-wide, including the West. It's also not wrong to point out that most of said terrorists follow a militant version of Islam. It's much the same way that while it makes people uncomfortable that the black community in America makes up less than 20% of the population but commits over 50% of crime in this country, there are statistics that back it up. Ignoring this does not help things, whereas acknowledging it can potentially lead to solutions to fix the issue.

At the same time, it's not right to say that "hostility towards Muslims" is warranted, in the same way that hostility towards anyone based on their race is warranted. Muslims aren't the problem. Islamists are not the problem. The problem is radical Islamic terrorists, most of whom are Muslim, which make up a microscopic portion of both the Muslim community and the Islamic faith (albeit, radical Islamic controlled states are similar hotbeds of trouble). One cannot blame the majority of Muslims or Islamists for the actions of a small group of their absolutely worst members, anymore than we should blame anyone for the atrocities someone else did simply because they happen to share a skin color, gender or belief system (so long as said belief system is not overtly violent). It'd be like blaming all black people for when the worst parts of BLM set stuff on fire. Ditto for white people and ANTIFA.

We need to be able to acknowledge the realities of a situation (such as what the physical characteristics and religious that permeate a group), but we cannot make broad stroke generalizations about an entire group because a small segment within said group (whom the rest of the group don't like) are a bunch of assholes.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Tall Man! Leatherface! Michael Myers! Pumpkinhead!)

Post by Ares »

Now, with all of that said:

Resume the Terrordrome.

Or are we trying to get . . . . Beyond Terrordrome?
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Tall Man! Leatherface! Michael Myers! Pumpkinhead!)

Post by Scots Dragon »

Yeah I think I'm gonna step away from here. It's obvious my hard-left anarcho-communist politics probably wouldn't agree with the general atmosphere so...
Formerly known as Narsil on the ATT and Ronin Army forums.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Tall Man! Leatherface! Michael Myers! Pumpkinhead!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Scots Dragon wrote: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:13 am Yeah I think I'm gonna step away from here. It's obvious my hard-left anarcho-communist politics probably wouldn't agree with the general atmosphere so...
The last forum my thread existed on was basically blown up largely because somebody got too heated over the current politics floating about (that one was about GamerGate, naturally), some people acted poorly, and WAYYYYYY too much harsh language got thrown about- it left a bad taste in many people's mouths, and continues a problem that's plaguing a lot of industries.

I really don't want to see the same thing happen here, though it's getting harder and harder to avoid on the internet. I'd rather people try to get along, or at least keep THIS thread particularly on-topic :). Comments on modern books and the current politics in the industry are fair-game at points, but I tire of having it brought up CONSTANTLY.

I'd rather as many people stick around here as possible (it can only help the health of the forum), and you'll find a variety of political orientations on here- a handful of liberals, a bunch of conservatives, etc.- a diversity of posters I actually prefer and enjoy (over having just one side harping on about their side in an echo chamber). People here've gotten a little fighter about the hard-left since... well, what happened at Ronin Army, but 99% of the time, everyone's remained civil. And frankly, I don't care about anyone's politics so long as they can keep it coherent and civil- people getting SO agitated over these issues drive a wedge into everything. I see YouTube videos that START OUT making sense ("Comics could use more minority characters in prominent roles!" "Comics shouldn't change things just to appease blog posters!") and then go off the deep end into "Enjoy this or you're a bigot!" and "All SJWs only wish to create a world in which white, straight males are all slaves with no power!"

I didn't want Echoes to just be "The Anti-SJW Version of Ronin Army" or nothing- just "Ronin Army but without mods who flame and permaban people over nothing". I dunno- I'd rather just talk standard shit about comics, like always.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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