Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

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Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hela! Red Norvell! Ymir! Thor Girl! JaneThor!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Arkrite wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:22 pm Did you just imply that Marvel listens to their fans? ;~)
They DO- they just put the words in the mouths of deliberately ugly, stupid people that are then immediately insulted by the characters, in-story :).
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hela! Red Norvell! Ymir! Thor Girl! JaneThor!)

Post by Goldar »

Arkrite wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:06 pm Oh god... the fast food Avengers.
That is too funny! Sad, but true...Ronald Thor! Coming to a theatre near you soon, lol!
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Harald Jaekelsson

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

HARALD JAEKELSSON
Created By:
Garth Ennis & Glenn Fabry
First Appearance: Thor Vikings #5 (Sept. 2003)
Role: One-Shot Villain

-Harald Jaekelsson debuted in Garth Ennis's Thor Vikings series, which I've never heard of, for Marvel's adult "MAX" brand. He and his viking cohorts were cursed for a thousand years after slaying an entire village- sailing for a millennium until arriving in modern-day Manhattan. They became superhuman zombies, killing and raping anything that was in their way (I would normally think that's embellishment, but look at who was writing)- Harald was superpowered enough to break Thor's hands and throw him into a river, and his cohorts killed "thousands of marines" and captured the Avengers. Thor & Dr. Strange had to go back in time to find the descendents of the man who cursed the vikings, bringing forth Sigrid, Erik & Magnus, who could kill the nigh-unstoppable zombie horde. Thor ended up sending Harald into space.

-Power-wise, he's one of those "appears in one story and does stuff, but is then beaten" kinds of guys, so I dunno. PL 12-14 with high durability- enough to stop Thor in their first scrap.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Apr 16, 2022 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thor Girl

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:57 am Image

THOR GIRL (Tarene)
Created By:
Dan Jurgens & John Romita Jr.
First Appearance: Thor #22 (Aug. 2000)
Role: Flying Brick, Distaff Counterpart of Thor
I remember what annoyed me most about Thor Girl early on was that she would always insist on introducing herself as "Tarene the Designate" every time she appeared on panel. Supposedly she was incredibly powerful, near Odin-level, and had assumed the Thor Girl identity to just hang around Thor and interact with mortals, but wound up having to assume that form permanently once she gave up most of her power in that battle against Surtur. At her full power she did pretty much one-shot Gladiator (albeit, a Gladiator who Thor had just smacked several times with his hammer).

For me, it felt more like Dan was poking fun at himself, since he's most well known as a Superman-writer, so giving Thor a "Supergirl" was just a bit of fun. Though in that case, I kind of wish Thor Girl had been given black hair, to make the nod a little more obvious, since now both Supergirl and Thor Girl had similar costume and hair colors.

I also think she wound up empowering Dessak the Godkiller in the future, due to Thor having gone evil. But given how the character was treated, I doubt we'll ever see her again anytime soon.
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Re: JaneThor!

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:29 pm Image

THOR, GOD OF THUNDER (Jane Foster)
Created By:
Stan Lee, Larry Lieber & Jack Kirby
First Appearance: Journey Into Mystery #84 (Sept. 1962)
Role: Love Interest, Distaff Counterpart, Controversial Replacement Character
Okay, I know given my thoughts about Marvel lately everyone is expecting a huge rambling post, so let me just start by saying . . . I don't hate the concept of Jane-Thor. I really don't. I just hate the execution and the direction Marvel took after her introduction.

I grew up in the 80s. I saw Steve Rogers give up being Capt. America to become the Captain, I saw Rhodey replace Tony as Iron Man, I saw Eric Masterson replace Thor, I saw Ben Reily replace Peter Parker, I saw four guys try to replace Superman, I saw Azrael replace Bruce Wayne, Artemis replace Diana, Kyle Rayner replace Hal Jordan, so on and so on. I know how this generally goes: known character gets replaced for a little bit, gets spun off into their own series when original hero returns.

And that's not a bad idea, really. But as with most ideas, the execution is everything. And they botched that execution horribly.

Because you see, this has clearly happened before. No one thought this was going to be a permanent, it was just a question of how they were going to handle this change to the status quo, if it would be painful or not, and if everything would be handled with respect.

And oh my, was this not handled with respect.

See, supporters of Jane-Thor like to point to Eric Masterson as proof that our complaints aren't valid. But anyone with any familiarity with both series can pick apart that argument easily.

Eric Masterson replaced Thor because Thor was quite literally dead at the time. Jane replaced Thor because he was just randomly made unworthy to wield the hammer.

Eric took the Thor name because, again, Thor was gone and Eric was trying to pass himself off as Thor and to handle Thor's responsibilities. When Thor came back, Eric returned the hammer and got his own name. Jane takes up the Thor name because . . . reasons? Thor is still around, he's still doing his own thing, and no one is going to mistake her for Thor. Thor is not a title, it's his frickin name.

When Eric took up the hammer, had to spend time getting use to its powers, to fighting in general, he made a lot of mistakes, would get called out on them frequently, and it was only from people like Hercules and Capt. America that he got any real support. Jane receives constant emotional validation from everyone, she's an instant expert with the hammer, and is said to be even better with it than Thor was. It's pretty much the exact problem Jab had when comparing the New Mutants to any later "teen mutant" X-Men team. Eric had to struggle to master his abilities, Jane is an instant expert with everyone praising her for how awesome she is.

Eric never had the Thor mythos re-written to make himself look good. If anything, he was constantly struggling to live up to Thor's example, and it was often his humanity and humility that earned him respect. For Jane, characters are frequently re-written to make her look better, especially the instances with Odin, Absorbing Man and Titania. Its like some very hostile feminists saw the Thor mythos and decided it was time to bring their own flavor of Ragnarok to the book. And Mjolnir's origin getting retconned and being made sentient is just stupid.

When Eric replaced Thor, he was the only major replacement hero at the time. With Jane-Thor, we also have Capt. America, Nova, the Hulk, Hawkeye, Spider-Man, the Vision, Wolverine, Iron Man, Quasar, the Wasp, Ms. Marvel and still more heroes replaced with other characters. It's impossible not to notice this, or for this to not come off as some kind of agenda.

One thing I'd never want to be is the kind of comic creator who just burns the creations that came after his favorite point in comics. I've seen creators like Geoff Johns seeming to love destroying everything that came out after the 80s, at least until the 2000s when he got to write. I think Marvel has a good idea where you can ship people like Riri, Miles, the Unstoppable Wasp and other replacement heroes off to a new universe where they can be the heroes of that Earth, and then let those books succeed or fail on their own merit.

Because I hate era of Marvel that Jane Thor is a part of, which it feels like in many ways she kick-started. I honestly want Reed and Sue to come back as part of some big crisis, where we get the Fantastic Four back and we can divide up some of the mess of the main Earth, and maybe retcon some of the stupidity of the last few years. Because ever since Hickman started his slow match towards the last Secret War, Marvel's comics have been incomprehensible, intolerable, or forgettable.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: Harald Jaekelsson

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:35 am Image

HARALD JAEKELSSON
Created By:
Garth Ennis & Glenn Fabry
First Appearance: Thor Vikings #5 (Sept. 2003)
Role: One-Shot Villain
Why people let Garth Ennis write mainstream Marvel characters, I will never understand.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Davies
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Re: Harald Jaekelsson

Post by Davies »

Ares wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:26 am
Why people let Garth Ennis write, I will never understand.
Fixed that for you.

(No, he doesn't do good cowboy or war stories. He does them the same way he does everything else, with far too much focus on the grotesque.)
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Kurse

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

KURSE (Algrim the Strong)
Created By:
Walt Simonson
First Appearance: Thor #347 (Sept. 1984)
Role: Powerhouse
Group Affiliations: The Dark Elves
PL 14 (177)
STRENGTH
18 STAMINA 17 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE -1

Skills:
Intimidation 15 (+14)
Perception 5 (+5)

Advantages:
Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Unarmed) 2, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 4, Startle, Takedown, Ultimate Toughness Check, Withstand Damage

Powers:
"Dark Elf Physiology"
Immunity 4 (Aging, Cold, Heat, Disease) [4]
Immunity 4 (Drowning & Suffocation, Poison, Pressure) (Flaws: Limited to Half-Effect) [2]
Regeneration 2 (Feats: Regrowth) [3]
Power-Lifting 4 (100,000 tons) [4]

"Fused Armour" Protection 1 (Extras: Impervious 21) [22]

Senses 9 (Mental Detection- Extended 5, Tracking 2, Radius Sight) [9]
"True Sight" Senses 4 (Vision Counters Illusion) [4]

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+18 Damage, DC 33)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +18 (+11 Impervious), Fortitude +17, Will +6

Complications:
Enemy (Thor)- Algrim is obsessively-determined to slay Thor.
Weakness (Iron)- Iron cuts straight through the durability of any Dark Elf- even one as mighty as Kurse. Iron weapons can easily slay him.

Total: Abilities: 94 / Skills: 20--10 / Advantages: 12 / Powers: 48 / Defenses: 13 (177)

-A villain so bad-ass, only SIMON FREAKING ADEBISI could play him (seriously, he's in Thor: The Dark World playing Kurse), Algrim the Strong is the most powerful of the Dark Elves, and was sent against Thor by their King, Malekith. However, Malekith betrayed him and nearly killed them both, and The Beyonder empowered the guy further (along with some amnesia) to fight Thor again. He's so strong at this point that Thor has to don The Belt of Strength to double his power (which will eventually leave him utterly exhausted), but even THEN Kurse wins, after a second "Beyonder Boost". However, Kurse remembers Malekith's part in his injuries, and kills The Dark Elf King, becoming an Asgardian ally and defender. This was the last major thing he did, as he was just a background guy from then on, even after Malekith returned. Malekith stripped Kurse of his armor, giving it to someone named Wazaria.

-Kurse, like Mangog, is basically a stronger Thor, but with some weaknesses- Thor is weaker, but can actually BEAT this guy as often as not.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Apr 16, 2022 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hela! Red Norvell! Ymir! Thor Girl! JaneThor!)

Post by Horsenhero »

Well, I missed most of the Jane-Thor discussion, which is probably good because I would make Aries' head explode. My big problems with the character though are only two things:

1) Her name should be Thora. That's the feminine of Thor, so you could just change the title of the comic to "The Power of Thor" or "The Legacy of Thor" or whatever and have Jane call herself by the lingistically accurate name. As Arkrite pointed out, it's a name not a title (even if it's root is the ancient Norse word Porr...meaning Thunder).

2) Jason Aaron has tried too hard to ship her turning her into a Mary Sue.

The thing that is most often overlooked is her story was supposed to be relatively short and end with her death. Wielding the power of Thor made Jane's cancer worse, so the whole thing was supposed to end when Thor Odinsson became worthy once again and Jane dies when she returns Mjolnir to him.

The problem for this original story arc was, sales of the book took a substantial leap with her introduction and have remained high ever since, causing the corporate board to sort of demand she stick around. Corporate doesn't care about tragedy or pathos, they care about sales.

I've got to agree with Woodclaw about most of the legacies. Riri Williams is really the only one that seems blatantly pandering, especially since there was already a young, African-American female super-genius with a home made suit of armor introduced in the Initiative. Also, Amadeus Cho didn't need to become the Hulk, but whatever. Miles, Laura and Kate were introduced years before most of the others. Laura taking over for Wolverine works in the short term because it gives fans a break from the most over-hyped character in Marvel's stable. Kamala works because Carol had abandoned the Ms. Marvel moniker for Captain Marvel and she's obviously a completely different character, not a replacement. Sam taking up the mantle of Captain America makes the most sense of any of these.

Finally, some odds and ends: Quasar isn't a major character. Quasar has never been a major character and anything they can do to change the character into something other than a second rate Green Lantern knock-off can only be an improvement. Despite the surge in popularity under Abnett & Lanning, Nova (Richard Rider) has never been able to carry a book for long, so while Sam Alexander isn't my favorite character, replacing Rich with Sam is no more devastating than replacing Bill Foster with Tom Foster as Giant-Man/Goliath. The Vision has been destroyed and rebuilt so many times he could give Red Tornado a run for his money for the title of "most fragile supposedly super-tough android". Tom King's Vision comic was awesome and if someone is skipping it just because they're butt-hurt over Marvel changing too much, they missed out on a good story. I haven't read "Unstoppable Wasp", but given that Jan was a mid-tier hero who spent the majority of the past decade or so presumed dead...who cares?

Anyway, that went a little farther off course than I intended, but once I got rolling I just didn't feel like stopping.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hela! Red Norvell! Ymir! Thor Girl! JaneThor!)

Post by Jabroniville »

JaneThor is a bit funny, because she almost seems to occupy the place Marvel clearly wanted for Carol Danvers- a top-tier female powerhouse that was treated well in-universe, taken seriously, and was a major character. Except Marvel did such a bad job with Carol (making her so rotten in Civil War II that even KAMALA KHAN was ripping on her) that JaneThor ended up becoming the quote/unquote "Feminist Icon", a more respected powerhouse, and more liked, both in-universe and out, as the sales are MUCH higher on Jane's book.

The "Jane is doomed to die" thing seems like a reasonable thread for the book to take- I recall seeing that big "Insider Rumor" that suggested it, but I don't know how true that was. It makes sense, though, as I mentioned in the build.

I consider Miles & Bishop to be "Spin-Off" characters more than replacements (though they both debuted as Replacement Heroes), as they occupy a world alongside the originals. Ms. Marvel is obviously not replacing Carol, as Carol still exists, just with a different name and look.

But yeah, like I said, none of this would be an issue (hell, Cho is what? The eighteenth Hulk now?) if Marvel hadn't done all of it at once, which is basically like holding out a flag and saying "HEY LOOK! WE'RE SO WOKE AND UPDATED!!! AREN'T WE AWESOME???? NEWSWEEK AND TUMBLR WRITERS, TELL US WE'RE AWESOME!!!" It's cloying and dumb.

Though I can sympathize with Marvel somewhat (though DC has this problem MUCH worse), in that if they debuted their universe TODAY, there'd probably be more of that diversity among the big names (that said, The Ultimates didn't really do much for that aside from Fury and Wasp, and Wasp kind of got forgotten about as a minority). But since they're going off of older stuff, and the older heroes are all that's popular, they're kind of stuck with Affirmative Action Legacy Characters.

Not as bad as DC's "Well, I guess Cyborg is our biggest black hero now" oddball push.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hela! Red Norvell! Ymir! Thor Girl! JaneThor!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Davies wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:42 am
Ares wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:26 am
Why people let Garth Ennis write, I will never understand.
Fixed that for you.

(No, he doesn't do good cowboy or war stories. He does them the same way he does everything else, with far too much focus on the grotesque.)
I agree with that. I still consider Gone to Texas one of my favorites TPB from that era, but I don't think I've ever warm up to anything written by Ennis ever since. Also, the man himself admited that he just don't get superheroes and what they're all about, which means, for me, that he's not even qualified to deconstruct them. Frank Miller and Alan Moore, who pretty much put deconstructing superheroes on the map, wrote some really great superhero stories before (For the Man Who Has Everything is still a favorite of mine) and after, Ennis didn't.
Jabroniville wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:38 am JaneThor is a bit funny, because she almost seems to occupy the place Marvel clearly wanted for Carol Danvers- a top-tier female powerhouse that was treated well in-universe, taken seriously, and was a major character. Except Marvel did such a bad job with Carol (making her so rotten in Civil War II that even KAMALA KHAN was ripping on her) that JaneThor ended up becoming the quote/unquote "Feminist Icon", a more respected powerhouse, and more liked, both in-universe and out, as the sales are MUCH higher on Jane's book.
Civil War ... what a mixed bag. I remember discussing it with a friend of mine and he loved it to death because it was proof, in his eyes, that it was possible to write a good superhero story without having a villain. Personally I hate it because pretty much half the character seemed to have swallowed the idiot ball and run with it. Civil War 2 seem to be just more of the same so I've skipped it completely.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hela! Red Norvell! Ymir! Thor Girl! JaneThor!)

Post by drkrash »

A bit off topic, but I thought the biggest issue in CW2 was that the writers forced the stakes on us, without ever *really* demonstrating what they were. It's not like there haven't been people and things that couldn't predict the future before, but all of a sudden, everyone is willing to accept this kid as a surefire path to knowledge. There was room for "civil discussion" in the story, but not really "civil war." Marvel clearly just wanted to use the brand again after the movie of the same name came out.

For my money, I would have happily read 6-12 issues of the build-up and resolution of the opening scene of Civil War 2. The whole mainstream superhero community organizing to throw down with a cosmic threat to the Earth? Yes, please. But no, we'll just resolve it in 4 pages and be done with it.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hela! Red Norvell! Ymir! Thor Girl! JaneThor!)

Post by Ares »

Horsenhero wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:23 am Well, I missed most of the Jane-Thor discussion, which is probably good because I would make Aries' head explode.


You are vastly overestimating the value of your own opinion if you think that.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hela! Red Norvell! Ymir! Thor Girl! JaneThor!)

Post by Yojimbo »

My JaneThor story:

I had been following and mostly enjoying Aaron's run on Thor, although more for Ribic's art than the actual writing. In particular, Aaron's "World of Warcraft" approach to Norse mythology irked me. But anyway, I still had the title on my pull list when the main character switched over to the new Lady Thor - only, because I visit my LCS only once a month, I was shorted the all new #1 that launched Lady Thor, and the first issue I saw was #2. Not being all that invested in the switch, and having already missed out on the first chapter of the story, I declined the offer of the second issue and dropped the book.

So JaneThor has saved me $3.99 a month since her appearance, basically.

I'm sure at some point in the near future I'll be able to buy and enjoy Thor comics again. Until then, I have my Simonson run to re-read whenever I get the urge. A mediocre writer on a character I like will get my money, just so I can still read about a character I like. But a mediocre writer on a character I have no attachment to? Comics aren't as cheap as they were when I was a kid, and I just can't be throwing money away on this stuff. By the same token, if a creator I really like takes over a character I don't give a fig for, I will probably give it a shot - and I'm usually rewarded, as with the greatness of Priest's run on Deathstroke.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hela! Red Norvell! Ymir! Thor Girl! JaneThor!)

Post by L-Space »

When I first heard about JaneThor I thought it was a pretty dumb idea, because (like others have stated) Thor is not a title it's his name. I did eventually give the comic a shot and enjoyed it quite a bit, but there were/are still some things that I dislike. So as a whole it's bit of mix bag.

I'm fine with her look, mask helm and all, but do not like the all black eyes. It's kind of disconcerting and think it makes her look demonic. (I blame the Supernatural tv show)

Her using Mjolnir in new and interesting ways would have been fine, that's part of the fun of shaking things up, but then they kept having people mention how she was so much better at using it than the original Thor, which was unnecessary.

Her acting differently when in "Thor" form is understandable to me too. Jane has cancer, she'd constantly be feeling pain, nausea, and exhaustion, not to mention having death constantly looming over her. But when she's Thor all those feelings would go away, she'd feel strong, energetic, and like she can make a difference, so it makes sense that her personality in that form would change.

Making Thor unworthy and then crippling him seems mean and was unnecessary for the change. Hell, it would have been better to have him be badly hurt, so he decides to pass the hammer on to someone else to fight in his stead (either permanently or just while he recovers). He could have even 'Green Lantern-ed' it and let the hammer decide to explain how he didn't know who it chose.

So for me, some bad some good, and I'm definitely glad I didn't read far enough to get to the Absorbing Man comic.
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