This is actually a really good explanation of the concept.Ares wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:58 pmThe way it was explained is that Hinduism sort of take a "Many paths to the mountain" and a "Universe as a giant canvas made up of many threads" approach to cosmology. Everything is connected, everything is aspects of a supreme deity, and all of the various gods basically represent aspects of that god and existence, and provide paths to that god. Doing good deeds, meditation, and helping others is seen as a way to become closer to the divine, and while each god exists as kind of a gateway to certain philosophical paths and truths, their interconnected nature keeps you learning and hopefully guides one against extremism, since everything can be considered a facet of something else.
I was taught from a different approach - my parents taught me about all the gods as if they were seperate, then as I grew older, the stories merged and painted that all things were connected. It wasn't until I was interacting with other kids at school that wondered why I believed in so many gods that I started to figure it out, and was then taught about it.
The story of Narasimha and Prahlad was my lead into it. Narasimha is one the ten Avatars of Vishnu (the fourth?), and his name (literally) translates to "Man-Lion". Of course, that's a little inaccurate, as the point was that he was a being that was both man and beast, possessing of humanoid features, as well as those of an animal with claws and fangs and stuff.
The tale began with Hiranyakashipu, an asura lord whose evil little asura brother, Hiranyaksa, was slain by Vishnu in his previous Avatar as Varaha. Angered and desiring vengeance, Hiranyakashipu undertook an austere penance for countless years (its implied that by the end of it, he was completely covered in dirt and mud while trees had grown from that foundation, and animals had taken abode in the tiny hill that had grown to envelop him). Appeased by this, Brahma decided to grant Hiranyakashipu a boon, who decided to be tricksy and asked, "Grant me that I not die within any residence or outside any residence, during the daytime or at night, nor on the ground or in the sky. Grant me that my death not be brought about by any weapon, nor by any human being or animal. Grant me that I not meet death from any entity, living or nonliving created by you. Grant me, further, that I not be killed by any demigod or demon or by any great snake from the lower planets."
Of course, now Hiranyakashipu was already a major-league asura (celestial being, and capable of going toe to toe with most devas. With this boon, he was pretty much invincible. He proceeded to use this un-kill-able-ness to rampage and commit atrocities that persecuted the followers of Vishnu. This proceeded well enough as by that point, Hiranyakashipu had taken over the Three Worlds (Heaven, Earth and Hell/Underworld), and he declares himself master of the universe. At this point, no one can stop him.
Enter his son, Prahlada, who somehow ended up becoming a follower of Vishnu from within his mother's womb. The explanation isn't important, but the point is that Prahlad was such a faithful devotee of Vishnu that nothing Hiranyakashipu does would sway his mind. So, Hiranyakashipu decides that his hatred for Vishnu and all of Vishnu's followers could not make exception to his son, and conspires to kill him. However, Prahlad's faith grants him mystical protection. There are thousands of methods that Hiranyakashipu tries, including using his own sister to do the job with her powerful magic, and all of them failed (his sister actually dies in the attempt). This goes on and on, as nothing seems to work, and Prahlad's faith protects him from everything the asura king tries.
Infuriated, Hiranyakashipu asks why Prahlad won't acknowledge him as the master of the universe, to which Prahlad replies that Vishnu is all pervading and omni-present. Since Hiranyakashipu isn't so, how can he be master of the universe when Vishnu is and is everywhere?
To which Hiranyakashipu basically vents and asks where this supreme being that Prahlad keeps going on and on about actually is. Because the asura doesn't see him. Doesn't smell him, taste him, hear him or feel him. If he's everywhere, then why isn't he in this pillar over here?
Prahlad's answer varies depending on the story, but he sticks to his guns: Vishnu is everywhere. Even in that pillar you're pointing at, Dad.
To prove the point, Hiranyakashipu picks up a mace (not the European version, the Indian version, which was like a massive metal ball on a metal stick that sometimes had spike on it and was used as a ridiculously fearsome bludgeoning weapon) and smashes the pillar in. But lo and behold, who steps out of the rubble? None other than Vishnu in the guise of the man-beast that is the Narasimha Avatar.
Narasimha summarily manhandles Hiranyakashipu in defense of Prahlad, and given he's part-man-part-beast, he does not count as man or animal. Narasimha is an Avatar of Vishnu, and thus not a creation of Brahma, nor a deva nor an asura. He is summoned at twilight which is neither day nor night. He drags Hiranyakashipu to the threshold of a courtyard, which is neither inside nor outside. Narasimha lays Hiranyakashipu on his lap - neither on the ground nor in the sky - and slays him with claws and fangs, which were not considered weapons by the standards of the time.
Hiranyakashipu's boon is summarily exploited, and the asura is disemboweled and slain. Prahlad finishes the story with prayers and what not, and Dharma is eventually restored as the son takes his father's throne and aids in repairing the damage caused by his father's rule.
So when Star Wars came around, my folks used that idea of the Force being everywhere and likened it to Narasimha. That the presence of the divine was truly in all things. And from that, it made one wonder... wait, then are not all gods then also part of that divine? To which the answer was yes. Leading to the conclusion that all gods are one, and a part of the divine whole - we just look at them as different because that's easier to understand.
Also a funny story was that when I was born, my dad wanted to name me Prahlad, in the hopes that I would always be virtuous and pure in faith as Prahlad was. My mom countered that while she liked the name, that would make my dad the vicious asura king Hiranyakashipu... Suffice to say, my name is not Prahlad.
I believe you just answered that question yourself.Ares wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:58 pmUnfortunately, religion and philosophy get to join up with politics, patriotism, science and technology with things meant to improve the lives of people that get often get hijacked by assholes who use it for their own gain and cause tremendous suffering antithetical to the belief system in question.
Actually, the reason cows are sacred isn't because of reincarnation. Though, that's kind of related, but more on the relation of "cows are good animals to reincarnate as" in the Hindu belief... because they're considered sacred.catsi563 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:10 pmOne other thing about Hinduism is as I recall like Buddhism, Hinduism is also big on reincarnation and the living cycle of death to life. this is why cows are considered sacred as if I recall theres something about the spirits of beloved ancestors reincarnating in them.
The explanation I was given by my folks was that cows are sacred since the earth-goddess, Prithvi, who provides sustenance for all life takes the form of a cow. Bhumi-Devi, who is considered to be the more pan-Indian goddedss for Mother Earth, also takes the form of a cow rather often. Not to mention that the mythological sacred cow, Kamadhenu ("cow of plenty"), is a major symbol for prosperity. Not to mention that the ever popular Krishna was born and raised as a cowherd, and commonly associated with the cows he loved to be around as a child.
When I got into high school, and was introduced to Hinduism from the scholarly, Catholic perspective, I was informed that cows have been venerated in India since forever. They were used for a lot, both in life and in death. In life, they were gentle and easy to work with in an agarian life style, provided milk and sustenance, as well as served as beasts of burden when farming. In death, they could be eaten for meat, and their hides could be made into leather, and on occasion their bones made into tools. Nowadays, these reasons have fallen out of use for ages.
I later learned that the life of a cow was roughly the same as the life of a Brahmin when it came to really, really, really early/old Vedic texts on religious laws and doctrine, and mentioned speficially when it came to laws on non-violence towards bipeds and quadrapeds. Ergo, no one ever killed cows, and thus any use of their bodies after death would only be after a natural death.
Not to mention the concept of 'ahimsa' (or nonviolence) which would play a major role in the beliefs of Buddhists and Jainists, believes that all life is sacred, and given virtually all Brahmins practiced this, it meant that every religious scholar and vritually all the teachers practiced this manner of nonviolence towards men and animals. This lead towards the eventual requirement that all Brahmins be vegetarians.
Yeah, this is a big-one. One could claim that all of Vishnu's Avatars were just reincarnations of each other, but the one that immediately jumps to mind would be the story of Sati.
Sati was a princess and Shiva's first wife, a goddess of marital felicity and longevity. Her tale is one that is kind of controversial in Hindu culture, though, mostly because it explains some things about Shiva's relationship with his spouse, but also led to a funeral practice that is now (thankfully) obsolete. Or it was, if it wasn't for this one event (maybe a decade ago?) where a woman tried to do it again which resulted in this whole hullabulloo and controversy over whether people should or should not try and stop her.
Anyways, the point is that there once was this king named Daksha whose wife, Queen Parsuti, desperately wanted a daughter. Sadly, King Daksha was only giving her Y-chromosomes to use, much to her disappointment. They ask for help with this, and since King Daksha was the son of Lord Brahma (the Creator), Brahma tells the royals that they should pray to the goddess Adi Parashakti (aka Shakti Devi aka THE Goddess).
They retire to live as ascetics and pray and after a long time (the myths are always vague about how long), the goddess appears, willing to hear their request. King Daksha asks that the goddess Adi Parashakti be reincarnated as their daughter. The goddess says yes, but warns that should her reincarnated self as their daughter ever be insulted, she would immediately revert to the goddess Adi Parashakti and disown them. The King and Queen agree.
That daughter ends up being named Sati, and is beautiful beyond compare. Given her father was the son of Brahma, and a great king in his own right, this makes her exceptional in all regards. However, she becomes enamored with Shiva after hearing tales of him from the divine sage Narada. When she reaches a marriageable age and King Daksha begins to search for a groom befitting his treasured daughter, her choice of Shiva - the moody ascetic who lives in the wilderness surrounded by beasts and other monstrous wild-things and wears the pelts of wild animals and is frequently lost in meditation while attended to by the ganas (who themselves tend to reside in cthonic and liminal locations like cemetaries and charnel grounds) and a whole host of other rather undesirable traits - doesn't sit well with him.
He attempts to find a groom - any other groom. For the meanwhile, he contents himself with the knowledge that Shiva's so deeply engrossed in his meditations and is notoriously detached from reality that the idea that Shiva would even notice his daughter seemed unlikely.
Sati was undeterred, and actually retired from the palace to live her life as an ascetic in order to win Shiva's favor and attention. She undergoes countless means of penance and sacrifice which draws Shiva's notice. However, he knows what she wants, and decided he would secretly test her - so Shiva ignored her. Sati slowly starts escalating the rigorousness of her penance and abstinances. It got so bad that she ended up eating only a single leaf a day. Not even that took. It was when she decided to give up on all nourishment all together that Shiva decided Sati was worth his attention and consented to take her as his wife.
When she returns home, awaiting Shiva to come and marry her, King Daksha doesn't take that news well at all. He tries everything to find her another husband. But during Sati's Swayamvara, to which he has invited every god and prince other than Shiva, she ends up choosing Shiva anyways. Things happen, and King Daksha resigns himself to this and lets her marry him. He doesn't like it, though, and given King Daksha is renowned for his arrogance, he cuts her out of the family. Sati leaves with Shiva and returns to Shiva's domain on Mount Kailash.
Some time later, King Daksha finds himself performing a Yagna (grand ritual - really big, important religious affairs), to which he invites all gods and kings... except Shiva and Sati. Feeling homesick, Sati tries to get Shiva to go to the yagna with her. He refuses, citing that since he was not invited, it would be improper and rude. Sati still wants to return home, to see the palace she grew up in and meet with her family and all the people she had lived her life with before marriage, so she takes a band of Shiva's attendants, the lowly gana, and sets off for her father's Kingdom.
When she arrives, King Daksha is understandably furious. Forgetting himself, he starts yelling at her, declaring she was unwelcome and uninvited. He refuses to hear her explanations, and continued to shout and berate her endlessly. This angers Sati... and King Daksha completely forgot about his agreement before Sati was born.
Sati is transformed into the goddess Adi Parashakti who lays waste to everything - her power was simply too much for the Earth to bear the burden - and in her fury, she reminds King Daksha of who she is - The Eternal Power, Mother of the Universe - and that he was warned not to insult her. She curses that King Daksha and all who attended the yagna would die by Shiva's hand, and that the yagna ritual would now never be completed, all it's positive effects swallowed by darkness. However, she can't remain on Earth as Adi Parashakti, so she unbinds herself from all mortal relations and attachments, prays that she be reincarnated as the child of a father she could actually respect since Daksha has lost all of hers, and then immolates herself. The goddess vanishes, and all that is left is the remains of Sati's immolated form.
Struck by grief and angered beyond comprehension upon learning of his wife's death, Shiva proceeds to render a terrifying dance: the Tandav - the Dance of Destruction. The more he dances, the greater the destruction that arises and ensues. Countless calamities shake the worlds, and nowhere is safe: not Earth, not Heaven, nor even Hell. He plucks out two hairs from his matted head and they transform into Virabhadra and Bhadrakali (also major league storm god/desses) who themselves call up a whole slew of other goddesses of destruction. These forces lay waste to the armies of Daksha and Bhrigu (who tried to defend the Yagna). Virabhadra decapitates King Daksha and the hordes slay every attendant at the Yagna.
The entire slaughter took a single night. No one was spared.
However, once the damage was done and Shiva calmed down, he felt compassion and regret for his thoughtless rage, restored all the innocents caught up in his anger back to life and returned things back to the way they were. Some of the stories say he even restored King Daksha back to life and to his kingship... but kept the severed head and replaced it with that of a goat.
Grieving, he carries Sati's body as he wanders the universe. Eventually, Vishnu decides that enough is enough, and uses his signature weapon - the Sudarshana Chakra - and spreads Sati's remains across the mortal world. Shiva creates an aspect of himself called Bhairav to wander the mortal world and guard them from harm, then returns to his abode on Mount Kailash and go back to doing what he always did.
After a long, long time, the goddess Adi Parashakti reincarnates once more as Parvati, the beautiful daughter of Himavan, King of the Mountains, who was a father the goddess could respect. She becomes enamored with Shiva, once more, and seeks out his attentions by proving her austerity with penance and sacrifice and devotion. She eventually wins it, and marries Shiva once more, and goes on to bear Shiva his sons like Karttikeya and Ganesha.
Most of the stories involving Shiva now always refer to his wife/consort as Parvati, and its considered unthinkable to consider the two as separate.
Yeah, the word "astras" sort of meant "celestial weapon used at range" or "celestial weapon released from the hand/mouth". This meant that a lot of them were used as arrows or as javelins or as energy-blasts from the hand or even released by whoever uttered them. Comparatively, there are other celestial weapons known as "shastras" which are essentially capable of only being used in close quarters combat. However, there isn't much in the mythology about them, given they you usually don't want to use a weapon with the destructive yield of a nuclear warhead... in meleeL-Space wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:56 pm Very interesting info on Hinduism kenma. Though I've read a bit about them, I was always fascinated with the astras (celestial weapons) the gods used. They ranged in power so much, one example mentioned being able to summon jewels and create tunnels and then another could fire millions of exploding missiles that was capable of destroying creation. It seemed like Hindusim worked on scale that was bit beyond a lot of other religions/mythologies.
Not to mention that they could be used by anyone who knew how. Devas, mortals, asuras... all of them were capable of using the astras.
Also of interesting note was that the astras were part-actual-weapon and part-mystic-spell. Frequently they were magical weapons that had to be summoned by special chants and which could only be used by those who knew the incantations to invoke and release them. Not to mention, a lot of them were ridiculously powerful and thus had restrictions on their use, some inherent to the astra themselves, or were levied upon the user by the gods that bestowed the warrior with the use of the weapon. The Rules of Warfare in the myths featured many additional restrictions as well.
It was actually a point of order that the Kurekshetra War in the Mahabharata was so absurdly devastating was because almost every major participant in the War had loads of these Astras mastered.
But yeah, they can do a lot. Everything from "be a normal arrow" to "destroy the Mortal Plane with a single shot". The upside - the can sometimes be rescinded by the user (and knowing the chant to do so is neccessary before knowing how to unleash it), or can be countered by other astras of a like or opposite nature before their effects can be truly unleashed.
I dunno, more people are staunch devotees of Shiva than there are dedicated followers of Indra. Fewer people would get mad about it.Jabroniville wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:21 pm Wow, thanks Kenma! I thought Danelsan was our resident expert (he's mentioned it before, I think), but that was a TON of info. I'll just cut & paste much of this to my descriptors of the characters, since it's too good to cut away most of it .
Fun Fact: Thor once beat up Shiva in a comic. But Hindus wrote in and tore Marvel a new one, so he was retconned later to "merely" be Indra is disguise, who I guess Thor could beat up .
On the other hand, Indra's not renowned for his prowess in single-combat. He's on a similar power-tier as Zeus is, though, so it's understandable that Thor Odinson might be able to take him a fight. Especially if Indra isn't able to use his Vajra/Thunderbolt.
Honestly, I'd probably tear them a new one myself, if only because there's no bloody way Thor was capable of beating up Shiva unless Shiva was intentionally sand-bagging on a phenomenal level in order to pull one over on Thor for later and teach some manner of moral/ethical lesson...
Not to mention one would have to wonder how Thor would ever survive the wrath of Shiva's wife after such an event.
I find this absolutely hilarious.Woodclaw wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:31 pmThis isn't meant one funny bit I recall from reading the original AD&D Deities and Demigods many years ago. While the handbook was, of course, very partial and simplified it had some really interesting notes on several real world mythologies including Hinduism and the authors strived really hard to include some concepts within the rules. One of the most interesting was that Brahma had no kind of divine immunities, just a truckload of HP, but there was a catch: since Brahma was the creator and more or less the physical embodiement of everything that exists anyone who damages him ultimately damages himself and suffers the same amount of damage he inflicted.