Jab’s Builds! (Lawnmower Man! Samus Aran! Metroids!)

[scc]

For some reason I always liked the idea of the LOSH but really haven't read much about them. They definitely have some fun designs and some of the hottest superheroines ever.

See if you can find the old "Hero Histories" articles from Major Spoilers.

Thanks Batgirl! And welcome back.

[Jabroniville]

LOL- of COURSE me casually posting a years-old Superboy build would start up a "just what CAN Superboy lift?" debate.

Now, the build was last posted in 2015, from a build left unchanged since 2013, so I can't say EXACTLY what "2013 Jab" was thinking except "Boy, I hope that Disney movie featuring Idina Menzel turns out to be okay, since I already decided I was going to like it", but I can tell you that I was most likely thinking "Ugh, which of these giant numbers fits? Yeah, that sounds about right".

Regarding Super-Strength, I always run into the following:

1) Super-heroes can lift whatever the writer thinks they can lift. The next writer who comes along will have a different total than that one. And that's fine.
2) It's dramatically inconsistent, is what I'm saying.
3) Never stat a hero to their maximum output! "Superboy pulling along moons by a chain" is the highest-tier, most-likely, but that doesn't mean your build has to hit it. Any number of things could be factoring in (from "Extra Effort", in-game, to in-story effects, or just sloppy writing). I don't stat up heroes based off of their one "Bad Showing", do I?

Not that I particularly cared for points-shaving with any of my Kryptonian builds, who cost the same amount as any TWO professional super-heroes!

[Jabroniville]

The fear instilled in him by Cruella de Vil gave him a reason to believe that she was real; he emphasized that a child only needs a little reason to believe and they will be hooked.

The class Disney films — live action and animated —are masters at getting this sort of “buy in” from the audience. We want to suspend our disbelief and escape into their world, we just need a little help from the filmmaker to do so. Almost all Disney films give us just enough of a sense of normalcy before they spring the fantastic on us, we don’t start out in Wonderland... We’re in a pleasant meadow being bored by our big sister, then we spot a rabbit in a waistcoat, and then we’re down the rabbit hole.

Too many bad films and stories forget this. They rush into getting us into the “good stuff” that they neglect the set-up. Compare and contrast the Gene Wilder Willy Wonka & the Chocolate Factory with the abysmal Johnny Depp Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. The newer film neglects to establish the normalcy and rushed into the fantastic. We don’t suspend our disbelief.

There’s a lesson to be learned here for Game Masters, I think.

People were like "WTF was that about?" with the ice-harvesters at the beginning of Frozen, but I think that's probably part of it. Ground it in the "real world" of how ice NORMALLY behaves, and you can F about with reality all you want later.

[Jabroniville]

That, however, is more of a one-man protest against the current state of DC. The main version of the Legion I can't stand is the one where Keith Giffen got his hands on the book and turned it into some bleak, dystopian future where no one had code names or costumes. The books looked ugly, they read ugly, and they basically took a dump all over everything we saw before in the Legion books.

Yeah, Astro over at SHC was all agog over that era, but I found it hideous to look at, and even to read about. Some super-comics can fit a "bleak, dystopian future" story arc... but THE LEGION?

I honestly always hated reading about futures like that anyways. The bleakness actually had an effect on me, even as a kid. Even frickin' She-Ra of all things seemed depressing and cruel because of it.

One thing I found interesting was that, with the exception of Superboy and Supergirl, the Legion tried really hard to distance itself from the modern day DCU. There were no Amazons or Martians on the Legion, it took until the 90's for them to get a Flash Family (though the Tornado Twins DID show up in the Silver Age) or Marvel Family member, and any Green Lanterns associated with them were temporary at best to show up. I can see the pros and cons of it. On the one hand, you don't want the Legion to just be "The Justice League of the 31s Century" (though that could certainly work as well), and the Legion intentionally distancing themselves from the 20th/21st Century does mind of make sense, given all of the retcons that happen there. At the same time, having some Legacy heroes on the Legion isn't a bad idea either.

I get the distinct impression that because The Legion of Super-Heroes was a Superman Family book, it was pretty much limited to those by editorial. The guys in charge of Superman (Mort Weisinger & Company) would probably have drawn the ire or others for simply grabbing "Robin Wayne" or "Barry Jordan" from the descendants of the other Editors' heroes, and so nobody wanted to touch anybody else's stuff.

Yes, that's immature, childish nonsense. Which makes me almost 100% certain that's the real reason why.

As a compromise of the above conflicts, I probably would have established that most planets have their own super-team, with Earth's being made up of a lot of legacy heroes, but the Legion acts as a galactic peace-keeping force that helps everyone, and has the numbers and manpower to put any other team to shame.

I have found mention of a couple others in my research, like the Heroes of Lallor & The Wanderers.

[Jabroniville]

I believe that the greatest problem with the Legion is that it's a concept that too many people link to a very specific setting, just like the Marvel Family.
Of course the Legion started as a way to give Silver Age Superboy a "club" to hang with. If you look at some of the original rules of the Legion Charter they felt really like something out of a pseudo-boy scout group (only underage members, unique power etc.). All of this was well and good, but it also somewhat tainted the Legion's reputation as being something inherent just to the Superman mythos, not the DC universe as a whole. The potential of using the Legion as a "future universe" has been wasted time and again because of this and the general reputation for "silver age sillyness".

Yeah, I found a few comments in the 2013 Legion set (some by you, I bet!) that indicates the repetition of the "Teen Clubhouse" concept. Hell, the team had a Charter that forced several people to quit for reasons as simplistic as "No Married Members". It was really archaic and silly, and even the BOOK re-wrote the charter in the end.

But yeah, they turned down some high-end people because of the "all unique powers" thing, except Supergirl got arbitrarily left in.

But anyone who read those old "Substitute Heroes" stories knows how cruel the Legion could be. Almost everyone who got rejected was basically screamed at by angry-faced Legionnaires doing their best Simon Cowell impressions (years before... uh, AFTER, I guess... that was a thing).

Like I said... Superdickery. It was REALLY COMMON in the DC books of the '60s. They were all charming, beautiful people... who were absolute assholes to each other. Marvel's heroes, by contrast, were ALSO assholes to each other... but because they were crazy, monstrous loons, not because they were dicks. It's an important difference.

[Jabroniville]

For some reason I always liked the idea of the LOSH but really haven't read much about them. They definitely have some fun designs and some of the hottest superheroines ever.

Case in point, the "Hero History" pages are accessible from nearly every Legionnaire's Wikipedia page, like so: https://web.archive.org/web/20080303003 ... /1557.htm/

It's all archived stuff, but the images surprisingly still work!

[Batgirl III]

Someone needs to persuade / blackmail / mind-control DC Comics into compiling the Hero Histories into an official, dead-tree edition, book. It’d be a great “coffee table” book to celebrate the LSH...

This April is the 60th Anniversary of their debut in Adventure Comics (Vol. 1) #247!

[Jabroniville]

... Some characters are just kind of a GIFT to artists, ya know?

DREAM GIRL (Nura Nal, aka Miss Terious, Dreamer)
Created By: Edmond Hamilton & John Forte
First Appearance: Adventure Comics #317 (Feb. 1964)
Home Planet: Naltor
Origin of Powers: Racial Abilities
Eras: All Three
Relationships: Star Boy (first two), Brainiac-5 (Threeboot)
Role: Team Bimbo, Incorrigible Flirt, Miss Fanservice, Deus Ex Machina Lass
PL 8 (133)
STRENGTH 2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 10/12 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 5 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Acrobatics 4 (+8)
Deception 6 (+8, +13 Attractive)
Expertise (Science) 9 (+14)
Insight 4 (+6)
Perception 9 (+11)
Persuasion 5 (+7, +12 Attractive)
Stealth 3 (+7)
Technology 6 (+11)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Attractive 2, Equipment 10 (Legion Gear), Power Attack, Ranged Attack 4, Set-Up, Taunt

Powers:
"Naltorian Physiology"
Senses 5 (Precognition, Danger Sense) (Flaws: Precognition Only While Sleeping) [3]

"Forseeing Combat"
Enhanced Advantages 8: Defensive Roll 2, Elusive Target, Evasion, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Defense 2, Uncanny Dodge [8]
Enhanced Fighting 2 [4]
Enhanced Dodge 2 [2]

Equipment:
"Legion Gear"
"Telepathic Ear Plug" Comprehend 3 (Languages) (6)

"Legion Flight Ring"
Flight 7 (250 mph) (14)
Immunity 7 (Hot, Cold, Vacuum, Pressure, Radiation, Suffocation 2) (7)
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) (2)
Communication 5 (Flaws: Fifth Rank is only towards Legionnaires) (18)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Foresight +12 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (+13 Foresight, DC 21-23), Parry +11 (+13 Foresight, DC 21-23), Toughness +3, Fortitude +5, Will +7

Complications:
Relationship (Star Boy)- He pretty much follows her around like a puppy.
Relationship (Mysa Nal, the White Witch)- Mysa spends a lot of time away from Nura, but they remain close in spirit.
Responsibility (Bossy)- Dream Girl loves the role of Legion leader, and frequently campaigns for it. She's bossy at the BEST of times, which really irks some teammates (especially fellow leader-type Element Lad, and the rebellious Wildfire).

Total: Abilities: 64 / Skills: 48--24 / Advantages: 20 / Powers: 17 / Defenses: 8 (133)

Dream Girl:
-Dream Girl's another one of those curious "really? You want in with THAT power?" types that show up all over the Pre-Crisis DC Universe, so of course she has to save the whole team dozens of times. The rest of the time, she's a Deanna Troi-type character only there to move things along or state the obvious ("I forsee this thing happening over here!" and then the thing she forsaw happens once the Legion gets there). Her main point of interest seems to be her ridiculously sexy shiny swimsuit and its effect on the Legion's men (particuarly Star Boy, giving us one of the most recurring Legionnaire hook-ups), and the temporary hatred of the Legion women (it's almost like the writer is saying that when an attractive, flirty woman shows up, other women WON'T LIKE HER. But that seems far-fetched...).

-Dream Girl hails from Naltor, where almost everyone possesses precognitive abilities- after forseeing the deaths of several Legionnaires, she crafts an elaborate scheme that involves changing Ayla Ranzz from Lightning Lass to Light Lass and putting herself on the team... only to discover that the "Legionnaires" who "died" were robot duplicates. Disgraced, she left the Legion for the SUBSTITUTE Heroes, where she hooked up with Star Boy, who had been booted from the main team for killing a man (one of Nura's former lovers) in self-defense. We would also later meet her sister, The White Witch, who would also join the Legion.

-Nura of all people was elected Legion leader (humorously, one character comments to another "Just think... do you think she would have put herself in the running if she didn't think she was going to win?" "... Aw no, I didn't think of that!") for The Great Darkness Saga, where her planning and foresight led the team in battle against DARKSEID and his legions. And it WORKS! Though oddly, the book establishes her as being fairly unpopular (being famously pushy & bossy as Deputy Leader) before being elected leader, so I wonder how she actually managed to get any votes!

-Nura is thus a strange combination of tropes, and I think really works as a character in retrospect- her "useless" battlefield powers (She doesn't even throw out "hints" in combat like Destiny used to do in X-Men books, though she later works on some martial arts) contrast her behind-the-scenes importance, where she often makes these minor adjustments here and there that end up helping save the day, leading the team, or using her scientific skills (second only to Brainiac-5) to help out. But despite being one of the "Team Brains" and a schemer, she's also a smug "Miss Fanservice" AND "Know-It-All" who irritates the men and creates rivalries amongst the women. Kind of a disruptive, annoying person, which makes her a great character on an ensemble cast. That she was paired up with Star Boy almost the entire time helped "center" her, and avoided a "She sleeps around" situation, which can often spring up with characters like this.

-In the end, Dream Girl kind of represents what young boys hate about girls, and what a lot of grown men LIKE about girls- flirty, bossy and pushy.

Reboot & Threeboot Eras:
-Reboot Nura took the "pampered rich girl" persona of the first, and turned her into an imbecilic Valley Girl who was only briefly on the team (joining near the end of the continuity as "Dreamer"). However, her relationship with Star Boy was still intact. The "Threeboot" instead used her as one of the first members to die in action, though Brainiac did a bunch of stuff like having her be alive through a projection device that animated her spirit. He eventually transplanted her mind into a cloned body, and the two were married- paying off a relationship that started with him hating how she just seemed to "know" everything ahead of time, without having to study. During her death, she was replaced by Rol Purtha, "Dream Boy".

Stats:
-Dream Girl is one of the weaker Legionnaires, as her powers were worthless in combat until much, much later. As it stands, she's there with Bouncing Boy, Triplicate Girl & Matter-Eater Lad in terms of "Guys I least want beside me when Darkseid comes calling" unless it's to hand the team their deus ex machina solution of the day (which she... does. Frequently). Nura only makes her PL 8 status on Defense; she's weak as a kitten otherwise, though VERY accurate in combat with her Precog powers, and hyper-statted towards the defensive. Hitting her won't be easy, and she's one of the more Skilled Legionnaires in terms of the sciences (this is taken from the first continuity), but otherwise her stats belie her plot importance.

-The other two versions of Dream Girl are MUCH weaker and less capable overall.

[Batgirl III]

Nura is also one of the only super-heroines in comic book history who gained weight as she aged. The post "Five Year Gap" Dream Girl is downright zaftig... and still willing to rock the metallic one-piece bathing suit.

[Jabroniville]

Nura is also one of the only super-heroines in comic book history who gained weight as she aged. The post "Five Year Gap" Dream Girl is downright zaftig... and still willing to rock the metallic one-piece bathing suit.

I would have posted pics of that if I saw any- anyone who saw my build of Mei from Overwatch knows that the Jab Train stops for the BBWs...

[Batgirl III]

Yeah... but "Dream Girl" isn't exactly a Google-fu friendly name. Hero Histories has a couple of good ones:





I totally read her as having Majel Barrett's Lwaxana Troi voice.

[Jabroniville]

So I changed Superboy's strength, just so people will stop being obsessive over it . He can now lift the Pyramids of Giza if he wants to (my official strength list, cribbed from the M&M 2nd Edition book, lists it as such):


STR 0 (50 lbs.) ---- (Bald Eagle)
STR 1 (100 lbs.) ---- (Jean Grey, Sue Storm; Wolves)
STR 2 (200 lbs.) ---- (NPC Thugs, NPC Cop, Black Tom Cassidy, Base Doom/Kang) (DCA- Black Canary, Robin)
STR 3 (400 lbs.) ---- (Nightwing, Silver Samurai, Black Canary II, Razor Fist; Cougars) (DCA- Nightwing)
STR 4 (800 lbs.) ---- (Daredevil, Batman, Demona "Gargoyles"'; Chimpanzees, Jaguars) (DCA- Batman, Vandal)
STR 5 (1,600 lbs.) ---- HUMAN MAXIMUM (Captain America, Hudson "Gargoyles", Hawkman, Bugbears; Lions)

STR 6 (3,200 lbs.) ---- (Goliath "Gargoyles", Sabretooth; Horses, Gorillas, Anacondas, Black Bears, Tigers) (DCA- Gorillas)
STR 7 (3 tons) ---- (car, van, truck) ---- (Cyborg; Grizzlies, Gryphons, Rhinoceros, Styracosaurus, Ankylosaurus, Peak for Most Animals) (DCA- Cheetah)
STR 8 (6 tons) ---- (lear jet, subway car) ---- (Elephants, Triceratops, T-Rex)
STR 9 (12 tons) ---- (fighter jet, semi truck) ---- (Spider-Man, The Beast, The Blob)
STR 10 (25 tons) ---- (humpback whale) ---- (Kid Omni-Man) (DCA- Aquaman)

STR 11 (50 tons) ---- (tank, train) ---- (Rogue, The Immortal, Marvel's Ares)
STR 12 (100 tons) ---- (767, cargo jet) ---- (Most Super-Bricks: Colossus, King Kong, Baseline Hulk) (DCA- Humpback Whale, Powerhouse)
STR 13 (200 tons) ---- (747, fishing liner) ---- (DCAU Superman, The Thing, Dragon Man)
STR 14 (400 tons) ---- (drilling rig, B-2 Stealth Bomber)
STR 15 (800 tons) ---- (small bridge) ----

STR 16 (1,600 tons) ---- (destroyer) ----
STR 17 (3,200 tons) ---- (freight train, nuclear sub) ----
STR 18 (6,000 tons) ---- (cargo freighter- empty) ----
STR 19 (12,000 tons) ---- (cruiser, loaded freighter) ----
STR 20 (25,000 tons) ---- (ocean liner, large bridge)

STR 21 (50,000 tons) ---- (battleship, gateway arch) ----
STR 22 (100,000 tons) ---- (aircraft carrier) ----
STR 23 (200,000 tons) ----
STR 24 (400,000 tons) ---- (Empire State Building)
STR 25 (800,000 tons) ---- (Golden Gate Bridge)

STR 26 (1,600,000 tons) ----
STR 27 (3,200,000 tons) ----
STR 28 (6,400,000 tons) ---- (Great Pyramid of Giza)
STR 29 (12,500,000 tons) ---- (small asteroid)
STR 30 (25,000,000 tons) ----

[Yojimbo]

I get the distinct impression that because The Legion of Super-Heroes was a Superman Family book, it was pretty much limited to those by editorial. The guys in charge of Superman (Mort Weisinger & Company) would probably have drawn the ire or others for simply grabbing "Robin Wayne" or "Barry Jordan" from the descendants of the other Editors' heroes, and so nobody wanted to touch anybody else's stuff.

Yes, that's immature, childish nonsense. Which makes me almost 100% certain that's the real reason why.

In those days, there were distinct editorial offices within DC that didn't have much overlap. There were team-up books like World's Finest and Justice League of America, but beyond that, crossovers just didn't happen. It wasn't immature, childish nonsense, it was the way business was conducted. As in so many things, the Marvel Universe changed that approach rather dramatically. We take for granted our cohesive universes, both on the printed page and in cinemas these days, but that wasn't always the case.

By the time the main DCU started to adjust the way it was doing things, the Legion had established itself pretty much as its own thing. There wasn't a need to introduce Green Lanterns or Batman 3000, because the 30th century already had a certain style and they'd never relied upon those kinds of connections before. I think that helped make the Legion maintain its popularity and dedicated fanbase, actually.

[Ares]

I totally read her as having Majel Barrett's Lwaxana Troi voice.

I know Lwaxana has her fans, but much like sfDebris, I'm not one of them. She pretty much grated on me every time she showed up, though I attribute that to the character and not the actress.

Dream Girl is something I wish we'd see more of in comics: a non-combat support power where the character is still very useful and has an interesting personality. While a big chunk of the fun of superhero comics is the action scenes, seeing support heroes that do things like handle communication, that can gather information, that can heal, do repair work and other things is all something you can see a superhero group wanting. The anime/manga My Hero Academia does a great job of showing how useful non-combat heroes would be.

Dream Girl is also kind of interesting in that she's very Emma Frost in terms of appearance and her affect on her team, while not being such a bit- . . . *ahem* bit of an unpleasant person.

L3 Dream Girl was possibly more effective than the standard Dream Girl in terms of combat. She could do this very brief "doze off mid-sentence" thing where she would then know what was going to happen in the next few minutes that let her predict the actions of opponents and what she needed to win. Naturally this was done at the expense of Karate Kid and Shadow Lass, who were the top hand-to-hand fighters of the Legion, in an issue that was pretty much there to establish in a very heavy handed "this is why she's on the team".

[Ken]

In the 1960s, there was no house-editor at DC. Pretty much every editor followed his own urges on how to handle things.

Mort Weisinger had the Superman titles, including the Legion. Jack Schiff had the Batman books. Julie Schwartz had Flash, Green Lantern, JLA, Atom, Hawkman, and Adam Strange and the other sci-fi books. Murray Boltinoff and George Kashdan and a maybe a few others had the rest.

Weisinger famously fought Superman being in the League, so Schiff fought Batman being in the League. Schiff tended to follow Weisinger's lead. But in 1964 DC decided to take Batman away from Schiff (rather than cancelling Batman and Detective) and give them to Schwartz, who then gave up Adam Strange. Eventually, Schwatz's "multiverse" view of the DC Universe won out, but in the 1960s the other editors felt no compunction to follow Julie. That's why pinning down when Superman or Batman changed from telling tales of the "Earth-Two" version to "Earth-One" version is nigh impossible. (I'd argue the first appearance of both the Earth-One Superman and Batman was Brave & the Bold #28).

But it also meant that other editors also left each other's stuff alone generally. That's why Batman, Green Arrow, and Aquaman are the heroes who'd most frequently appear in Superman stories. I explained about Schiff and Mort getting along, and Mort created Aquaman and GA.

So, yes, most of the rest of the League weren't a part of Wisinger's "universe" so the Legion didn't use them.