Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

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Davies
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Davies »

Ken wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:35 am
Davies wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:29 am While I don't hate 'Karate Kid' as much as a certain someone does, I have to say that I view his alias as absurd, and grossly reductive. "I have mastery of thousands of fighting styles from across the galaxy" reduced to "I am really really good at Okinawan/Japanese kickboxing" just doesn't make much sense to me. I'd definitely rename and redesign him if given the opportunity.
Pankration Punk
Bersilat Boy
Battle Boy
Bruce Lee Boy
Martial Arts Lad
I was actually going for Xianxia, or, in English, Immortal Hero.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Batgirl III »

In the remake, the kid watches a lot of karate videos and claims to know karate, before getting beat up by the wushu using bullies who mockingly call him “the karate kid.” He learns Kung Fu after that.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Ares »

Davies wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:29 am While I don't hate 'Karate Kid' as much as a certain someone does, I have to say that I view his alias as absurd, and grossly reductive. "I have mastery of thousands of fighting styles from across the galaxy" reduced to "I am really really good at Okinawan/Japanese kickboxing" just doesn't make much sense to me. I'd definitely rename and redesign him if given the opportunity.
The story goes that the master who trained Val was a Japanese karate expert who had spent years traveling the galaxy, learning all the martial arts he could, and combined them with his own family style to create a martial art specifically designed to deal with the rising supercriminals and ultra-powerful aliens. And in typical Silver Age goofiness, he called the martial art "Super-Karate", because it was Karate designed to counter superpowers. Val mastered the art and then went and learned even more martial arts to broaden the style further, but took his name from the style his teacher had created out of a show of respect and humility to his master.

It's sort of like how Shang Chi is always referred to as "The Master of Kung Fu", despite him also mastering most, if not all, of Earth's non-Chinese martial arts.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Ares »

Batgirl III wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:15 am In the remake, the kid watches a lot of karate videos and claims to know karate, before getting beat up by the wushu using bullies who mockingly call him “the karate kid.” He learns Kung Fu after that.
Which makes the movie even weirder. It'd be like a movie where this guy is a swordsman who loses to a gunslinger in the first 15 minutes of the movie, then completely discarding his sword and spends the rest of the movie mastering the gun, to the point that he wins every gunfight he's in from that point on. But the movie is called "The Swordsman".
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Bladewind »

Image

Karate Kid vs Mon-El. Mon-El charges at Karate Kid, who uses momentum against the Daxamite to nearly throw him into a sun from the surface of an Earth-like planet.

:o :o :o

to be "fair" Monny was possessed by someone or other that didn't really have experience with all that power but still.
Thorpocalypse wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 6:01 pm Building to be comics "accurate" is different than building to run a PC or building something to challenge a group.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Ares »

Well, you guys are all expecting a long rant, so I'll try not to disappoint. :D

As someone who loved the Legion AND was a big martial arts fan, there was no way I wasn't going to love Val. Reading his earlier stuff is interesting, because it's clear Shooter really enjoyed the character and had a lot of fun with him. Interestingly enough, while his abilities weren't very "flashy", Shooter had included him on the team because in many ways, his abilities were a lot more "dynamic" and "fun". Most of the Legion would stand back, point their fingers at something and then make something happen. Superboy, Ultra-Boy, Mon-El and Colossal Boy were really the only Legionnaires who actually got into anything resembling up-close fist-fights. Karate Kid was introduced to have another front row fighter who had incredible striking power and agility. Someone who could karate chop tanks in half. Ferro Lad had been created for a similar reason, being an acrobatic daredevil who could become superstrong and nigh-invulnerable.

Another way Val was designed to contrast the rest of the Legion was his personality. Whereas most of the other Legionnaires at the time were pretty generic nice kids, Val made his debut challenging Superboy to a fight. That sort of thing never happened, and it immediately showed that Val had confidence to spare. That was more or less Val's defining characteristic: near-total confidence in his ability to triumph over any odds so long as he was skilled and clever enough, and an iron will that refused to be broken or give in. Shooter's Legion was where the kids really began to develop distinct personalities, and it started with Val, Ferro, Projectra and even Nemesis Kid.

Regarding Val's power level, he is hard to place, since the only American superhero martial artists that even come close to him in terms of stunts are guys like Iron Fist and Karnak, and even then, Val blows them out of the water. Danny tips over a SHIELD Helicarrier? Val cancels out an earthquake with a kick. Speaking of Karnak, over time Val developed a "Zen-like ability to detect weak points" that was partially used to explain how he could shatter objects, in something that seems lifted straight off of the Inhumans. For the most part, it seemed like Karate Kid's big thing was breaking stuff. Whether it was the Emerald Eye, meteorites, inertron, a giant diamond, and so on. Probably one of his more insane stunts was shattering these giant energy chains that Mon-El not only couldn't break, but Lar actually KOed himself flying at said chains at full speed. For the most part, Val could damage anything with one well-placed strike with enough focus, with the exception of folks whose powers included "invulnerability".

Like Jab mentioned, Val didn't actually win his first fight with Superboy ( 1, 2, 3), though he could judo-toss him all over the place and could punch Superboy without fear. This was in an era when Superman had to roll with Batman's punch so Bruce wouldn't cripple his hand punching Clark, and Clark seemed to "feel" the punches, just not be damaged by them. That seemed to set the stage for Val's Pre-Crisis career, in that he could break pretty much anything, but "invulnerable" meant literally invulnerable, so he couldn't actually hurt Superboy or Mon-El directly. At the same time, Val did have three separate fights with Superboy and did technically manage to win two of them. The second fight confirmed that Val can't hurt Superboy, but he could judo him around and won via a submission hold that literally turned Superboy's strength against him, so much so that Clark exhausted himself trying to escape it. Later, when Superboy was driven temporarily crazy, Val used a similar method to subdue him. Val actually had a pretty good track record against other types, almost beating Don Allen (who had Barry Allen superspeed) before Don's equally fast sister interfered, as well as beating Ultra-Boy twice, taking out three of the Fatal Five, and so on. And during his wedding he got to have some fun sparring with Superboy and Timber Wolf at the same time.

It was actually kind of weird in later reboots, where in a lot of ways the other Val's were less impressive, given how comics have been toned down since the Silver Age, but in other ways they were even more impressive. The Reboot Val COULD hurt Daxamites with physical attacks, and do insane things like effectively "judo toss"/redirect a charging Mon-El into another solar system (1, 2, 3), and had a pretty cool moment where he beat up a prison's worth of the worst criminals in the galaxy. To the point where one of them decides "you know what, freedom's overrated". There was also the Titans/Legion crossover where he punched a spaceship out of existence, and in a scene that recreated a classic sparring match with Superboy (1, 2), he came off slightly more impressive against Mon-El (1, 2, 3).

Threeboot Val was generally the least impressive skill-wise and character-wise, but he still had a couple of cool moments, such as shattering all of the ice off of the Sydney Opera House with one well placed hit and showing Colossal Boy why you should listen when Val gives you a warning.

And when he was brought back post Infinite Crisis, classic Val showed he could do some pretty serious damage to guys who could withstand punches from Supergirl. But in the issue before, he couldn't hurt Supergirl herself, though he claimed he didn't want to hurt either, so who knows. Comics!

If the above wasn't clear, I was definitely one of the guys during my battle board days arguing for Val being a powerhouse, though I never claimed he could crack planets in half. Still, one thing the internet has made a lot easier is backing up statements with all of the scans floating around.

I kind of wish more had been done with the rivalry Val and Nemesis Kid had, since they only really ever had two fights: one in Val's solo series, and the one the led to Val's death. The solo-series actually had my preferred take on their battles, in that since Val didn't have a conventional superpower, Nemesis Kid's power couldn't simply give him an instant win ability. Instead, his powers gave him an ability suitable to defeat an athletic human, and Karate Kid would adapt to said power, using various martial arts skills. Then Nemesis Kid's power would adapt to Val's adaptation, and Val would adapt in turn, and it made for an interesting fight. It made Nemesis Kid a perfect, well, nemesis for Val, someone with the ultimate superpower fighting someone without any true powers. Having Nemesis Kid just suddenly go "Oh, by the way, my power can give me your 'power', but at greater levels" seemed like kind of a cop out, but that's to be expected considering . . . .

. . . GIFFEN. I seriously don't get this guy. I mean, when he started out he was a solid artist and equally solid co-plotter, as he and Levitz together penned some of the Legion's better stories. But if the quote Jab included for my benefit at the top of Val's page wasn't a hint, the man has problems. No Keith, it's not bad taste to say you hate a character out loud. It's bad taste to take a character people like and kill them for extremely petty reasons. And not just kill them, KILL THEM THREE TIMES! Seriously, Giffen killed classic Val, he killed the SW6 Val, and then he came back to kill classic Val over again. I have to credit the awesomeness of Val's death to Levitz and the artist, both of whom were apparently fans of Val and wanted to send him off in style, because Giffen likely would have had Val trip during combat and karate chop his own head off.

Between that, blowing up Earth because "the editors weren't paying attention" and quitting because they wouldn't let him Spider-Clone the Legion and kill off various members via a name out of a hat, Giffen just comes off as extremely petty. He finds "Super Karate" dumb, but loved writing stories about frickin Matter-Eater Lad, not to mention destroying the Legion with that 5 Years Later nonsense. Between that and what his JLI run did to Captain Marvel, I honestly might literally hate the man. Part of me wishes I could find out who his most beloved character was and not only kill them, but have Karate Kid kill them personally. But that would be sinking to his level, and that would be wrong. No matter how viscerally satisfying it is to imagine, it'd be wrong.

Jab also wasn't kidding about those "Karate Kid vs Everyone" images. You can find Val fighting just about everyone in there, including my personal favorite:

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So yeah, there's my Karate Kid ramble. Val's easily one of my favorite Legionnaires, and I think a "best of" version of him would be a combination of his Pre-Crisis and Reboot versions, having him be a confident but honorable young hero searching to improve himself, always eager for a challenge and sure that he can win, but also striving for a spiritual balance and finding victory when he's calm and focused.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Ares »

I'd also say Jab's build is very solid, and a lot better than the official DCAU build, which actually had Val as a PL 10, below Lady Shiva. How in the Hell Lady Shiva warranted a higher PL than KARATE KID is just beyond me.

Outside of a pretty viscous Super Karate Chop, you could plausibly Alt Effect a lot of other stunts, perhaps like a Weaken ability that requires a perception check first, a lot of ranks of Strength that only apply for grappling, etc.

It is kind of weird that DC has almost no other really "Esoteric" martial artists, save for the rare chi ability Lady Shiva might display, but then you have Val, who can kick an earthquake into submission. Him, Iron Fist and maybe Karnak are probably the biggest example of esoteric martial artists in the Big Two. All I know is, in my own setting, "super" martial arts are going to be a bit more common . . . and there will likely be some asshole villain named Keith Griffen trying to destroy them.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Jabroniville »

THERE'S the Ares rant I was hoping to see :). Good on ya. And BattleBoard-esque with all the feats, too! And SCANS, because in modern times you can back stuff up, and not just make everyone take your word for it :). I wonder how many of the old BB-fights I've had involved people directly lying.

Regarding how I'd write Val, I actually can't decide. Writing the Legion seems to mean embracing the silliness in a lot of cases, so Val doing "Earthquake-Countering Karate" and other things would be funny and unique. The desire to use his powers almost as Variable with "Karate" as the descriptor is too enticing. But it might be TOO goofy. There's this LINE you have to walk with all the "Lads" and "Lasses"- too far over the line and you have a story that's "Squirrel Girl" silly and you can't take it seriously with any level of drama. And the Legion REQUIRES drama.
Ares wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:16 am I'd also say Jab's build is very solid, and a lot better than the official DCAU build, which actually had Val as a PL 10, below Lady Shiva. How in the Hell Lady Shiva warranted a higher PL than KARATE KID is just beyond me.
OHHHHHHHHHH yeah- I forgot about that. They made Lady Shiva insanely tough, but Karate Kid much weaker. I knew DCA made a few weird design choices here and there, but didn't remember Val's.

Though to be fair, the most I try and stat DC characters in 3e, the more I respect the poor designers of the "Official" builds, because there's often nothing to work with online. Like, if you hadn't read TONS of Val issues, you'd have no idea he was supposed to be insanely tough. Having only read a single comic featuring Geo-Force, I was ready to stat him as a ST 8, STA 8 guy, only to be staggered by seeing a build listing THOUSANDS OF TONS as his lifting limit in DCA!! The bios you can find online don't even come CLOSE to describing the power levels of most DC heroes.
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Princess Projectra/Sensor Girl

Post by Jabroniville »

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She's a cutie, but that beehive needs to come back.

PRINCESS PROJECTRA (Wilimena Morgana Daergina Annaxandra Projectra Velorya Vauxhall, aka "Jeckie", Sensor Girl)
Created By:
Jim Shooter
First Appearance: Adventure Comics #346 (July 1966)
Home Planet: Orando
Origin of Powers: Inherited
Eras: All Three
Relationships: Karate Kid, Chameleon Boy (Reboot flirtation), Timber Wolf (Threeboot)
Role: Illusionist, The Princess, Cleavage-Barer
PL 10 (145)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Deception 7 (+10, +12 Attractive)
Expertise (Royalty) 6 (+6)
Expertise (Space Hero) 2 (+2)
Expertise (Magic) 4 (+4)
Insight 4 (+6)
Perception 5 (+7)
Persuasion 4 (+7)
Stealth 4 (+6)
Vehicles 2 (+4)

Advantages:
Attractive, Benefit (Princess of Orando), Daze (Deception), Defensive Roll, Equipment 10 (Legion Gear), Fascinate (Deception), Ranged Attack 4, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
Illusion 10 (All Sense Types) (50) -- [51]
  • AE: "Fearsome Images" Affliction 10 (Will; Dazed/Stunned/Paralyzed) (Extras: Sustained +2, Cumulative, Area- Visual Perception) (Flaws: Instant Recovery) (40)
Equipment:
"Legion Gear"
"Telepathic Ear Plug" Comprehend 3 (Languages) (6)

"Legion Flight Ring"
Flight 7 (250 mph) (14)
Immunity 7 (Hot, Cold, Vacuum, Pressure, Radiation, Suffocation 2) (7)
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) (2)
Communication 5 (Flaws: Fifth Rank is only towards Legionnaires) (18)

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Fearsome Images +10 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 20)
Illusion +10 (+10 Illusion, DC 20)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +2 (+3 D.Roll), Fortitude +4, Will +6

Complications:
Relationship (Karate Kid)- Jeckie's one-true-love is Val Armorr, and she will fight even her own father's wishes in order to marry him.
Secret (Sensor Girl/Princess Projectra)- Removed from the Legion for killing Nemesis Kid, Jeckie returns to the roster as "Sensor Girl", hiding her true identity for a time.
Responsibility (Orando)- As a Princess, then Queen, of Orando, Jeckie has many responsibilities, and must often avoid using 30th-century technology on her backwater, medieval-style world.

Total: Abilities: 40 / Skills: 38--19 / Advantages: 20 / Powers: 51 / Defenses: 15 (145)

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SENSOR GIRL (Wilimena Morgana Daergina Annaxandra Projectra Velorya Vauxhall, aka "Jeckie", Princess Projectra)
Created By:
Jim Shooter
First Appearance: Adventure Comics #346 (July 1966)
Home Planet: Orando
Origin of Powers: Inherited
Eras: All Three
Relationships: Karate Kid, Chameleon Boy (Reboot flirtation), Timber Wolf (Threeboot)
Role: Illusionist, The Princess, Cleavage-Barer
PL 10 (187)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 9 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Deception 7 (+10, +12 Attractive)
Expertise (Royalty) 6 (+6)
Expertise (Space Hero) 2 (+2)
Expertise (Magic) 4 (+4)
Insight 4 (+6)
Perception 5 (+7)
Persuasion 4 (+7)
Stealth 4 (+6)
Vehicles 2 (+4)

Advantages:
Attractive, Benefit (Princess of Orando), Daze (Deception), Defensive Roll, Equipment 10 (Legion Gear), Fascinate (Deception), Power Attack, Ranged Attack 4, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
Illusion 10 (All Sense Types) (50) -- [53]
  • AE: "Fearsome Images" Affliction 10 (Will; Dazed/Stunned/Paralyzed) (Extras: Sustained +2, Cumulative, Area- Visual Perception) (Flaws: Instant Recovery) (40)
  • AE: "Darkness" Concealment (Visuals) 2 (Extras: Area, Attack) (8)
  • AE: "Bestow Senses" Senses 2 (Infra & Ultravision) (Extras: Affects Others Only +0) (2)
"Super-Sensory Powers"
Senses 29 (Extended Sight & Hearing 5, Analytical Vision, Microvision 4, Vision & Hearing Counter Illusion & All Concealment, Infra & Ultravision) [29]

"Sensor Girl Disguise" Morph 1 (Extras: Continuous) [6]

Equipment:
"Legion Gear"
"Telepathic Ear Plug" Comprehend 3 (Languages) (6)

"Legion Flight Ring"
Flight 7 (250 mph) (14)
Immunity 7 (Hot, Cold, Vacuum, Pressure, Radiation, Suffocation 2) (7)
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) (2)
Communication 5 (Flaws: Fifth Rank is only towards Legionnaires) (18)

Offense:
Unarmed +9 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Fearsome Images +10 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 20)
Illusion +10 (+10 Illusion, DC 20)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +2 (+3 D.Roll), Fortitude +4, Will +7

Complications:
Relationship (Karate Kid)- Jeckie's one-true-love is Val Armorr, and she will fight even her own father's wishes in order to marry him.
Secret (Sensor Girl/Princess Projectra)- Removed from the Legion for killing Nemesis Kid, Jeckie returns to the roster as "Sensor Girl", hiding her true identity for a time.
Responsibility (Orando)- As a Princess, then Queen, of Orando, Jeckie has many responsibilities, and must often avoid using 30th-century technology on her backwater, medieval-style world.

Total: Abilities: 44 / Skills: 38--19 / Advantages: 21 / Powers: 88 / Defenses: 15 (187)

Silver Age Princess Projectra:
-Princess Projectra has one of the sillier non-Lad/Lass Legionnaire names, and hails from the medieval-style planet Orando, giving us a neat outlook on what looks more like a "Fantasy" realm than the futuristic 30th Century. Joining and the same time as Karate Kid & Nemesis Kid, she fell in love with the former, eventually leaving to rule Orando with him by her side, after defeating her cousin Pharoxx in a civil war. In a GREAT sequence of events, Karate Kid bravely dies in a sacrifice after being beaten nearly to death by Nemesis Kid, leading to Projectra daring him to "Look me in the EYES" as she stalks him for revenge. Nemesis Kid's powers let him perfectly counter anyone else's... so she doesn't use any. She just walks up to him and snaps his neck. The Legion are stunned, but she's like "F*ck your rules; I'M in charge here, and if this boots me off the Legion, so be it." GREAT bit of business, that. "Do any of you DARE call me wrong?"

-Projectra thus leaves the Legion for years, returning in disguise as "Sensor Girl" (only Saturn Girl knew her secret), showcasing some new applications of her powers to keep her identity secret- many teammates suggested that she could have been a resurrected or cloned Supergirl (who had recently died in the Crisis). The Emerald Empress later unmasked her, but most people outside the Legion did not realize she was the same person as Projectra. In this form, Sensor Girl even led the Legion for a time. She would later lose her Sensor Girl boosts, and meet her "SW6" clone, which was later killed in battle.

-I find her interesting mainly because her personality of "imperious spoiled brat" is always an entertaining thing if thrown into a team of Captain Serious types or happy-go-lucky teen heroes. Plus, she's got the bonus of living on a swords & sorcery-type planet, which makes for lots of interesting situations, as she's no tech-genius, and a bit more supersticious than her friends.

Threeboot-Era Jeckie:
-In the Reboot, a character named "Sensor" replaces Jeckie, but "Threeboot" brings her back. Here, she is the spoiled brat of the team, being the daughter of Orando's royals. She becomes cold, detached and selfish when Orando is destroyed, leaving her with none of her old privileges, but the tragedy unlocks her birthright- her trademark powers. Eventually, however, she grows even darker in outlook, blaming the Legion and United Planets for Orando's destruction, and attacking various Legionnaires. Phantom Girl is beaten nearly to death, Saturn Girl is mind-wiped, and Projectra gains even more powers.

-The "Re-Rebooted" Projectra returns to continuity after Infinite Crisis, called Sensor Girl still.

Projectra's Powers:
-I didn't go as balls-out with the Senses as Heroes & Villains did, mainly because there's no real need to make her sense of smell or taste avoid Illusory effects (I mean, WTF?). It's still 26 points, but when compared with 59 points in H&V, it's a big savings. As it stands, Jeckie can stun people or just get them chasing ghosts, but as a fighter she's not QUITE up to snuff. She's extremely vulnerable (PL 6.5 is her best defensive ability, in Dodge), and lacks physical impact. Of course, ask NEMESIS KID how weak she is unarmed- I statted up both versions of Original Projectra, just to show the sheer breadth of distance between them.

-Illusion powers tend to be very pricey for something that can't actually HURT people, so Princess Projectra pretty easily matches her PL's points-cost between them, her Senses, and her ability to scare people with her Illusions (reading some stuff, it's VERY clear that even people who KNOW she's throwing illusions out are taken aback and scared of them- one of her cousins even gets a helmet SPECIFICALLY to counter the illusions HE KNOWS ARE COMING). She has high Deception thanks to her run as Sensor Girl, which featured her lying to her own teammates.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:41 am Regarding how I'd write Val, I actually can't decide. Writing the Legion seems to mean embracing the silliness in a lot of cases, so Val doing "Earthquake-Countering Karate" and other things would be funny and unique. The desire to use his powers almost as Variable with "Karate" as the descriptor is too enticing. But it might be TOO goofy. There's this LINE you have to walk with all the "Lads" and "Lasses"- too far over the line and you have a story that's "Squirrel Girl" silly and you can't take it seriously with any level of drama. And the Legion REQUIRES drama.
Yeah, the Legion requires a little bit of going with some of the sillier stuff, but you can't be TOO silly or you kill the drama, and even the 60's Legion had drama. The late 70's/early 80's Legion had a good mix of both, which is a good balancing.

A Variable with a "Karate" descriptor could actually work, but I'd say that outside of his "Chop Through Anything" power, he'd need to make some kind of focusing check to "center" himself first, so it takes time. Most cases where he DOES do something especially power geeky, it usually takes him concentrating first.

I did like the idea of him mostly being High Accuracy, but can Power Attack for higher damage, which is really how it works. You rarely see Val using a Super Karate Chop on Batman, which would kill him. He uses the high accuracy stuff for the high defense types, and then power attacks to have a shot against the High Toughness types, who can't dodge all that well anyway.
Ares wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:16 am I'd also say Jab's build is very solid, and a lot better than the official DCAU build, which actually had Val as a PL 10, below Lady Shiva. How in the Hell Lady Shiva warranted a higher PL than KARATE KID is just beyond me.
OHHHHHHHHHH yeah- I forgot about that. They made Lady Shiva insanely tough, but Karate Kid much weaker. I knew DCA made a few weird design choices here and there, but didn't remember Val's.

Though to be fair, the most I try and stat DC characters in 3e, the more I respect the poor designers of the "Official" builds, because there's often nothing to work with online. Like, if you hadn't read TONS of Val issues, you'd have no idea he was supposed to be insanely tough. Having only read a single comic featuring Geo-Force, I was ready to stat him as a ST 8, STA 8 guy, only to be staggered by seeing a build listing THOUSANDS OF TONS as his lifting limit in DCA!! The bios you can find online don't even come CLOSE to describing the power levels of most DC heroes.
Very true. There were few things as vague as what "super strength" meant in DC during the 70s and 80s.
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- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Ares »

Supposedly Sensor Girl was originally going to be a way to sneak the Pre-Crisis Supergirl back onto the team, in a nice little nod to when she briefly wore a mask to disguise herself during a 60's Legion story. But the editors found out and nixed the idea, because both Superboy and Supergirl were Byrne victims.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Batgirl III »

Karate Kid versus Cassandra Cain. Someone make this happen.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Woodclaw »

Batgirl III wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 6:52 am Karate Kid versus Cassandra Cain. Someone make this happen.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:41 am
Ares wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:16 am I'd also say Jab's build is very solid, and a lot better than the official DCAU build, which actually had Val as a PL 10, below Lady Shiva. How in the Hell Lady Shiva warranted a higher PL than KARATE KID is just beyond me.
OHHHHHHHHHH yeah- I forgot about that. They made Lady Shiva insanely tough, but Karate Kid much weaker. I knew DCA made a few weird design choices here and there, but didn't remember Val's.

Though to be fair, the most I try and stat DC characters in 3e, the more I respect the poor designers of the "Official" builds, because there's often nothing to work with online. Like, if you hadn't read TONS of Val issues, you'd have no idea he was supposed to be insanely tough. Having only read a single comic featuring Geo-Force, I was ready to stat him as a ST 8, STA 8 guy, only to be staggered by seeing a build listing THOUSANDS OF TONS as his lifting limit in DCA!! The bios you can find online don't even come CLOSE to describing the power levels of most DC heroes.
As far as I know, they had different people statting different characters. So it strikes me that Shiva and Val probably weren't statted by the same person, and probably no one thought to compare them until the books were published.

And, yeah, there were some really odd design choices.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Woodclaw »

Ken wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:17 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:41 am
Ares wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:16 am I'd also say Jab's build is very solid, and a lot better than the official DCAU build, which actually had Val as a PL 10, below Lady Shiva. How in the Hell Lady Shiva warranted a higher PL than KARATE KID is just beyond me.
OHHHHHHHHHH yeah- I forgot about that. They made Lady Shiva insanely tough, but Karate Kid much weaker. I knew DCA made a few weird design choices here and there, but didn't remember Val's.

Though to be fair, the most I try and stat DC characters in 3e, the more I respect the poor designers of the "Official" builds, because there's often nothing to work with online. Like, if you hadn't read TONS of Val issues, you'd have no idea he was supposed to be insanely tough. Having only read a single comic featuring Geo-Force, I was ready to stat him as a ST 8, STA 8 guy, only to be staggered by seeing a build listing THOUSANDS OF TONS as his lifting limit in DCA!! The bios you can find online don't even come CLOSE to describing the power levels of most DC heroes.
As far as I know, they had different people statting different characters. So it strikes me that Shiva and Val probably weren't statted by the same person, and probably no one thought to compare them until the books were published.

And, yeah, there were some really odd design choices.
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