Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Lynx-O! Mumm-Ra! Namor Builds! Destiny!)

Post by Ares »

Also, regarding Destiny:

Huh. I had thought that mental helmet was just some random MacGuffin that was later ret-conned into the Serpent Crown later as part of the Atlantis Attacks even, which went into the history of the Crown as part of an ongoing back up story in the Annuals. It was actually really cool with solid art by Mark Bagley. But this makes it sound like it was intended to be the Serpent Crown from the beginning. Then again, the Serpent Crown was also a thing in several late 70s/early 80s stories as well.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Lynx-O! Mumm-Ra! Namor Builds! Destiny!)

Post by Jabroniville »

OMG- Rapunzel's Tangled Adventure keeps getting more and more... unusually-intense.

I mean, JESUS CHRIST RAPUNZEL THIS IS A KIDS SHOW WHAT THE FUCK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nobLlMG1sks

And- DAMN. An "I Want" song from Cassandra, or as some websites call her, "Sword Lesbian": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbmoK0srUkY

Funny how they got Eden Espinosa and only got her to do like, two songs thus far.
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squirrelly-sama
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Lynx-O! Mumm-Ra! Namor Builds! Destiny!)

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:33 amAnd- DAMN. An "I Want" song from Cassandra, or as some websites call her, "Sword Lesbian": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbmoK0srUkY
I disagree with that title, because it means best girl can't be my waifu.
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Andromeda

Post by Jabroniville »

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ANDROMEDA (Andromeda Attumasen, aka Andrea McPhee)
Created By:
Peter B. Gillis, Don Perlin & Kim DeMulder
First Appearance: The Defenders #143 (March 1985)
Role: Namor's Girlfriend, The Top Villain's Hot Daughter
Group Affiliations: The Defenders, The Deep Six
PL 10 (159)
STRENGTH
7/8 STAMINA 7/8 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 11 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 4 (+11)
Deception 2 (+5)
Expertise (Science) 3 (+7)
Expertise (Science) 4 (+11) -- Flaws: Limited to Biochemistry
Expertise (Atlantean Soldier) 7 (+11)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 4 (+7)
Perception 5 (+8)
Stealth 2 (+7)
Technology 4 (+8)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Defensive Attack, Equipment 2, Evasion, Favored Environment (Underwater), Improved Critical (Trident) 2, Improved Disarm, Improved Smash, Quick Draw, Ranged Attack 6, Takedown

Powers:
"Atlantean Physiology"
Swimming 9 (250 mph) [9]

Immunity 3 (Drowning, Cold, Pressure) [3]
Movement 1 (Environmental Adaptation- Aquatic) [2]
"Advanced Atlantean Senses" Senses 1 (Low-Light Vision, Ranged Touch) [2]

"Improved Underwater Stats" (All with Flaws: Limited to Underwater/When Soaked)
Enhanced Strength 1 [1]
Power-Lifting 1 (12 tons) [1]
Enhanced Stamina 1 [1]
Impervious Toughness 6 [3]

Equipment:
"Thrown Trident" Strength-Damage +1 (Extras: Ranged 8) (Diminished Range -1) (8) -- (10)
  • AE: "Net" Snare 5 (Flaws: Limited to One Use) (5)
  • AE: "Trident" Strength-Damage +1 (Feats: Reach) (2)
Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Trident +11 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Underwater +11 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Trident Underwater +11 (+9 Damage, DC 24)
Initiative +8

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +12 (DC 22), Toughness +7 (+8 Underwater, +2 Impervious), Fortitude +8 (+9 Underwater), Will +6

Complications:
Responsibility (Atlantis)
Enemy (Attuma)- Andromeda and her daddy are kind of at odds.
Weakness (Lack of Water)- If left without water, Andromeda will grow progressively weaker. After a long period of time, she will becoming Fatigued, Impaired, Disabled, Stunned, etc. (in addition to dropping Strength & Stamina consistently). She will also suffocate after 10 minutes outside of water, unless she has a special helmet or serum.

Total: Abilities: 88 / Skills: 38--19 / Advantages: 18 / Powers: 22 / Defenses: 12 (159)

-For years, I thought Andromeda was Mystique in a funky outfit. I blame this on the Marvel: Five Fabulous Decades of the World's Greatest Comics mega-book on Marvel history, which showed a massive selection of the Atlantis Attacks! covers for that series of crossover Annuals. Andromeda was set up with a bunch of other super-heroines as the "Seven Brides of Set", and pretty much looks like Mystique (I mean, how many blue-skinned chicks with red hair ARE THERE?). Turns out she's a recurring Namor ally, usually stuck being a background friend, as her key book of focus was the third-tier Defenders series, which featured a TON of lesser-known, under-used characters. She's also the illegitimate daughter of Namor's enemy Attuma, yet worshipped Namor and ran off to hang out with him. She joined The Defenders for a short while, but ultimately mostly got forgotten.

-Andromeda is the illegitimate daughter of Attuma, who sired her with Lady Gelva, whom he disliked. A woman in the Atlantean military, she was denied promotions despite her skills, and briefly confronted her father, though was defeated. Inspired by the tales of Namor, she moved to the surface world, altering her appearance to look human, and ended up joining the Defenders during their "New Defenders" phase (where the Non-Team... started acting like a regular team). She was with the team for only a short time, facing the Star Thief and Manslaughter before being frozen in stone with most of the group against The Dragon of the Moon. She would return with the rest of her team (resurrected by Doctor Strange), but would leave for the oceans soon after.

-After this, she was kidnapped by Ghaur during Atlantis Attacks in order to marry her to the Serpent-God Set, then allied with the underwater heroes of Deep Six. She also did some weird stuff where her mind switched with that of Genevieve Cross, a normal person (Strange had transferred the bodies & spirits of the Defenders into the bodies of recently-dead humans), but this has mostly been ignored as Namor went off on his own way, leaving his supporting cast nowhere. Her most recent appearance is as a literal "Face In The Background" on Namor's Defenders of the Deep. I've never read more than one appearance featuring her, but I like her- she's like Mystique, minus all the creepy skulls and murderousness, and more Xena.

-I was gonna make her PL 9, but as she's super-strong AND a great fighter, as well as being a really solid background character behind Namor, she deserves PL 9.5, and becomes a full PL 10 Underwater (like most Atlanteans, she's better underwater). She's a smart, savvy Atlantean warrior-princess type, though she's well below either Namor or Attuma on the Power Scale.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Jabroniville
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Deathcharge

Post by Jabroniville »

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DEATHCHARGE (Real Name Unknown)
Created By:
Roger Brown & Robert Walker
First Appearance: Namor the Sub-Mariner Annual #4 (1994)
Role: Jobber Villain, One-Off Villain
Group Affiliations: Atlantis
PL 7 (98)
STRENGTH
6 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 3
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Athletics 1 (+7)
Expertise (Criminal) 5 (+5)
Intimidation 4 (+4)
Perception 3 (+3)
Stealth 1 (+4)
Vehicles 2 (+5)

Advantages:
Equipment 2, Favoured Environment (Underwater), Ranged Attack 3

Powers:
"Atlantean Physiology"
Swimming 6 (30 mph) [6]

Immunity 3 (Drowning, Cold, Pressure) [3]
Movement 1 (Environmental Adaptation- Aquatic) [2]
Senses 1 (Low-Light Vision) [1]
Protection 1 [1]

Energy Blast 8 (16) -- [17]
  • AE: "Omnidirectional Burst" Damage 7 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (14)
Equipment:
"Thrown Trident" Strength-Damage +1 (Extras: Ranged 7) (Diminished Range -1) (8) -- (10)
  • AE: "Net" Snare 5 (Flaws: Limited to One Use) (5)
  • AE: "Trident" Strength-Damage +1 (Feats: Reach) (2)
Offense:
Unarmed +7 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Trident +7 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Blasts +6 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +8

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +6, Fortitude +5, Will +4

Complications:
Motivation (Greed)
Weakness (Lack of Water)- If left without water, Atlanteans will grow progressively weaker. After a long period of time, they will becoming Fatigued, Impaired, Disabled, Stunned, etc. (in addition to dropping Strength & Stamina consistently). They will also suffocate after 10 minutes outside of water, unless they have a special helmet or serum.

Total: Abilities: 48 / Skills: 16--8 / Advantages: 6 / Powers: 30 / Defenses: 9 (98)

-Wow, now this guy DEFINITELY comes off as a one-off from a rookie writing team. Debuting in the second part of a Namor Annual (ie. after the main story you saw on the cover), he was an Atlantean prisoner, sentenced to manual labor. An explosion of discarded military devices nearly killed him, but gave him super-powered energy blasts. Naturally, he thus became a mercenary with the most '90s of codenames, even working for humans. He was protecting a polluting ocean liner, but then Namor arrived, Deathcharge defeating him thanks to New Villain Stink. However, a chained-up Namor manages to pierce the hull of the ship, spraying him with water and redoubling his strength- he redirects Deathcharge's energy blasts into his own face, knocking him out. Namor then taunts the Senator whose ship was doing the polluting.

-This story, apparently "poorly written" according to Marvunapp, has a complete rookie villain take out PRINCE NAMOR in his debut, which provides that usual trouble of making a one-off villain into someone who can beat a PL 12-13 super-hero. Technically, he should be at LEAST PL 10 if he can do that in his debut, but who knows with comics?
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
RUSCHE
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Namor Builds! Destiny! Attuma! Andromeda!)

Post by RUSCHE »

Other then Attuma , Namor lacks any big name Villain. In the late 60's and 70's Doom was one. He needs a main threat that is not Black Panther.
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Krang

Post by Jabroniville »

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You ain’t never had a friend like him.


WARLORD KRANG
Created By:
Stan Lee & Jack Kirby
First Appearance: Fantastic Four Annual #1 (1963)
Role: Evil Warlord, Would-Be Usurper
Group Affiliations: Atlantis, The Defenders, The Serpent Squad
PL 10 (135)
STRENGTH
6 STAMINA 7 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 2 (+8)
Close Combat (Sword) 2 (+12)
Deception 4 (+7)
Expertise (Atlantean Soldier) 10 (+12)
Insight 2 (+5)
Intimidation 2 (+5)
Perception 5 (+8)
Persuasion 4 (+7)
Stealth 1 (+4)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Equipment 3, Favoured Environment (Underwater), Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
"Atlantean Physiology"
Swimming 6 (30 mph) [6]

Immunity 3 (Drowning, Cold, Pressure) [3]
Movement 1 (Environmental Adaptation- Aquatic) [2]
Senses 1 (Low-Light Vision) [1]

"Neuro-Shock Blade (Flaws: Easily Removable) [6]
Strength-Damage +2 (Feats: Improved Critical) Linked to Affliction 7 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) (10 points)

"Electro-Repellent Chest Shield" (Flaws: Removable) [4]
Immunity 5 (Electrical Attacks) (5 points)

Equipment:
"Blaster Pistol" Blast 6 (12) -- (15)
  • AE: "Thrown Trident" Strength-Damage +1 (Extras: Ranged 7) (Diminished Range -1) (8) -- (10)
  • AE: "Net" Snare 5 (Flaws: Limited to One Use) (5)
  • AE: "Trident" Strength-Damage +1 (Feats: Reach) (2)
Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Sword +12 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Net +8 (+5 Ranged Affliction, DC 15)
Blaster Pistol +8 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (DC 21), Parry +12 (DC 22), Toughness +7, Fortitude +7, Will +5

Complications:
Enemy (Namor)- Krang's lady Dorma ran off and hooked up with Namor- Krang was a bit pissed.
Motivation (Power)
Weakness (Lack of Water)- If left without water, Atlanteans will grow progressively weaker. After a long period of time, they will becoming Fatigued, Impaired, Disabled, Stunned, etc. (in addition to dropping Strength & Stamina consistently). They will also suffocate after 10 minutes outside of water, unless they have a special helmet or serum.

Total: Abilities: 76 / Skills: 34--17 / Advantages: 8 / Powers: 22 / Defenses: 12 (135)

-Warlord Krang is a close advisor & military leader of Namor's in Atlantis, but began to hate him when his girlfriend (Lady Dorma) hooked up with Namor, and Namor screwed up an Atlantean invasion of New York City by trying to save Sue Storm. Krang deposed Namor and made him go on a treasure hunt, ruling Atlantis as a despot, but Namor soon bested Krang in personal combat and exiled him. He would reappear a few more times, often allying with other Namor foes or trying to formulate up some new scheme with a super-weapon or monster (such as teaming with the Puppet Master to trick Namor into thinking Dorma had left him, or allying with Byrrah- who'd usurped the throne himself- and Attuma). In the '70s, he was defeated by Namor & Steve "Nomad" Rogers when he tried to steal the Serpent Crown. He also once got beaten up in Super-Villain Team-Up by Doctor Doom. He's been most-recently seen as one of the exiled Atlanteans living on the X-Men's Utopia, and hasn't mattered to comics for decades.

-He's more or less an elite version of an Atlantean Soldier, upgraded to PL 9.5 and able to... well, lose to Namor handily every time they fight.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Lynx-O! Mumm-Ra! Namor Builds! Destiny!)

Post by Jabroniville »

squirrelly-sama wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:55 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:33 amAnd- DAMN. An "I Want" song from Cassandra, or as some websites call her, "Sword Lesbian": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbmoK0srUkY
I disagree with that title, because it means best girl can't be my waifu.
She really is "Best Girl", isn't she? The bad-ass new armor she's wearing just makes her Best-er.

Also, pulling the old "throw sand in the eyes" against a superior fighter, then THROWING HIM OFF THE GOD-DAMN TREETOP? Holy balls- Cass cheats like a BOSS!
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Namor Builds! Destiny! Attuma! Andromeda!)

Post by Jabroniville »

RUSCHE wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:46 am Other then Attuma , Namor lacks any big name Villain. In the late 60's and 70's Doom was one. He needs a main threat that is not Black Panther.
It's basically Attuma, Llyra and Tiger Shark among his regular rogues. And Llyra is a weak "Femme Fatale/Seductress" act, while Tiger Shark is basically a generic "filler" guy if he was anyone else's villain.
Jabroniville
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Llyra

Post by Jabroniville »

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LLYRA (Llyra Morris)
Created By:
Roy Thomas & Sal Buscema
First Appearance: The Sub-Mariner #32 (Dec. 1970)
Role: Femme Fatale
Group Affiliations: The Frightful Four
PL 9 (175)
STRENGTH
6 STAMINA 6 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 2 (+5)
Deception 8 (+11)
Expertise (Lemurian Warrior) 4 (+6)
Expertise (Magic) 4 (+6)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 2 (+5)
Perception 3 (+6)
Persuasion 5 (+8)
Stealth 3 (+6)
Vehicles 4 (+6)

Advantages:
Equipment 5 (Lemurian Weapons), Favoured Environment (Underwater), Improved Critical (Lemurian Weapons), Great Endurance, Ranged Combat 8

Powers:
"Mutant Powers: Controlling Sea Creatures"
Mind Control 10 (Extras: Continuous +2) (Flaws: Limited to Undersea Animals -2) [40]
Features 1 (Quick Change- Can Appear Lemurian or Caucasian) [1]

"Atlantean/Human/Lemurian Hybrid"
Swimming 8 (120 mph) [8]
Immunity 4 (Aging, Drowning, Cold, Pressure) [4]
Movement 1 (Environmental Adaptation- Aquatic) [2]
Senses 1 (Low-Light Vision) [1]

Equipment:
"Lemurian Weapons"
"Body Armour" Protection 2 (2) & Immunity 5 (Ballistics) (5)
"Net" Snare 5 (Feats: Reach 3) (Flaws: Touch Range) (13) -- (14)
  • AE: "Trident" Strength-Damage +2 (Feats: Reach) (3)
Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Lemurian Weapons +10 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Animal Control +10 Perception (+10 Perception Affliction, DC 20)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +6 (+8 Armour), Fortitude +8, Will +7

Complications:
Motivation (Power)- Llyra desires rulership of undersea nations.
Weakness (Lack of Water)- If left without water, Llyra will grow progressively weaker. After a long period of time, she will becoming Fatigued, Impaired, Disabled, Stunned, etc. (in addition to dropping Strength & Stamina consistently).
Enemy (Namor)

Total: Abilities: 70 / Skills: 38--19 / Advantages: 16 / Powers: 56 / Defenses: 14 (175)

-Llyra's an oceanic Namor foe, being Half-Lemurian the way he's Half-Atlantean. She doesn't have Namor-level powers, but she can use Giant Sea Monsters the same way Dragonrider can. Her entire thing is being an evil, manipulative seductress, often trying to finagle her way into power. Despite a relative lack of superhuman power, she is BY FAR Namor's most dangerous foe, having killed several of those close to him (including Lady Dorma, and his cousin Namora).

-Llyra's Lemurian father died saving the family from a shark when she was a child, and she was raised by her human mother. As a girl, she developed a split personality, literally believing herself to be a different person when she morphed her skin color from green to pink. Using her mutant abilities to "Aquaman" aquatic creatures into doing her bidding, she took control of Lemuria from King Karthon. Namor, a friend of Karthon's, encountered Llyra and fought her and her creatures- she sent all manner of sea monsters against the Avenging Son, but he won the day, and Llyra was thought dead.

-Llyra recovered thanks to her human mother's resuscitation attempt, and took Lady Dorma's place for her wedding to Namor. Unfortunately, Atlantean law had a provision for this (jesus, lawyers think of everything, don't they?), and Dorma was still Namor's wife- Llyra ran off, enraged. Tragically, she shattered the glass cylinder holding Dorma captive, and the Lady suffocated before Namor could rescue her. She would later act as a subsersive alongside various other Namor foes, such as Tiger Shark (who killed Namor's human father at her behest) and the exiled noble Byrrah. Llyra then murdered Namora (who was revealed years later as only being comatose) and was thought-dead herself. She later reappeared with a new Frightful Four, but they were beaten by Namor & Spider-Man.

-Her next deal was in Atlantis Attacks, where she was a minion of the Deviant High Priest, Ghaur. When Ghaur was beaten, Llyra escaped once more. Her next thing was in the John Byrne Namor book- she got herself impregnated with Leon McKenzie's seed, faked being the Invisible Woman to sleep with NAMOR, thus getting his genetic material mixed in because SCIENCE, had her son given her own brain engrams, and gave birth to the super-aged Llyron. However, Llyron was also secretly given the engrams of the scientist working on the project (whom Llyra betrayed and slaughtered), and then beat up his mother and took control himself. When Llyra begged Namor to free her from certain death, Namor mercilessly left her to die, probably being sick of her killing women close to him. She later returned in the Tarot mini-series (a rip-off of Charmed), with zero fanfare, probably because the writer forgot that she was supposed to be dead. A rival named Nagala had usurped her role as High Priestess of Lemuria, and turned her into a sea-hag.

-Llyra's low-powered, but makes her way by being a manipulator and schemer. She can Control Monsters and use Lemurian Weapons, but she's nowhere near Namor's class.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
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Vyrra

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

VYRRA
Created By:
John Byrne
First Appearance: Namor #19 (Oct. 1991)
Role: Mad Scientist

-Vyrra is a mad scientist who engaged in illegal cloning practices in the 1920s and was exiled for it- cloning having been outlawed a century earlier after the clones- all slaves- were put to death after a slave uprising. Sensing the end of his body's extended lifespan, he tried to curry favor with Namor by resurrecting Lady Dorma, but always ended up creating lifeless husks. Finally, his body died, and he transfered his mind into one of the Dorma Clones. Furious that Namor refused his request to be buried in Atlantis, he turned on the Prince, allying with Llyra in order to create a genetic clone of Namor named Llyron. However, sensing Llyra's betrayal, he not only placed HER mental engrams onto the clone, but HIS OWN- she snapped Vyrra/Dorma's neck, but Llyron turned on his own mother and buried Vyrra in Atlantis, as per his "father's" wishes.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Spectrum
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Re: Eddy Gordo

Post by Spectrum »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:56 am -Eddy, to be fair, is BY FAR the most important Capoeria fighter in fighting games, having given it international recognition it'd never had before.
Does Blanka (from StreetFighter) officially use Coperia or is that just from the roleplaying game?
We rise from the ashes so that new legends can be born.
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Ares
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Re: Eddy Gordo

Post by Ares »

Spectrum wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:04 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:56 am -Eddy, to be fair, is BY FAR the most important Capoeria fighter in fighting games, having given it international recognition it'd never had before.
Does Blanka (from StreetFighter) officially use Coperia or is that just from the roleplaying game?
I think that's just from the White Wolf RPG. From what I can tell, Blanka's official fighting style is simply considered "Beast Movement/Mimicry".
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: Eddy Gordo

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Spectrum wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:04 pm Does Blanka (from StreetFighter) officially use Coperia or is that just from the roleplaying game?
I believe it's actually sourced from the manuals, but no, he doesn't practice anything that actually looks like Capoeira. The first fighting game character to recognizably be Capoeira-based was Pupa from Rage of the Dragons, with Elena coming shortly thereafter, and then Eddy Gordo.

Richard Meyer, from Fatal Fury, did at least wear the uniform. :)
sirjolt
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Namor Builds! Destiny! Attuma! Andromeda! Llyra!)

Post by sirjolt »

In Japan, Blanka was listed as being self taught. Capcom USA decided to list it as Capoeria for the North American release for whatever reason.

Elena was first in Street Fighter 3: Next Generation which release on Feb. 4th in '97. Eddy was first in Tekken 3 which was released on Mar. 20th '97 so they were likely developed at the same time. A fairly tough style to emulate at the time given the lack of knowledge about Capoeria and the Internet wasn't nearly as robust then as it is now (I didn't even have Internet until spring of '97 and it wasn't high speed until '04).
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