Jab’s Builds! (Whomp 'Em! Plumbers Don't Wear Ties! ToeJam & Earl!)

[Jabroniville]

TALIA AL-GHUL
Created By: Dennis O'Neil & Bob Brown
First Appearance: Detective Comics #411 (May 1971)
Role: The Femme Fatale
Mental Problems: Obsession with Batman, Dutifulness to Ra's al-Ghul
Voice Actor: Helen Slater & Olivia Hussey
First Episode: "Off Balance"
Finest Moment: Made The Batman fall in love with YET ANOTHER villainess.
PL 8 (119)
STRENGTH 1 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Acrobatics 6 (+11)
Athletics 7 (+8)
Deception 3 (+7, +9 Attractive)
Expertise (Spy) 7 (+10)
Insight 4 (+7)
Investigation 4 (+7)
Perception 6 (+9)
Persuasion 3 (+7, +9 Attractive)
Stealth 4 (+9)
Technology 2 (+5)
Vehicles 2 (+7)

Advantages:
Attractive, Daze (Persuasion), Equipment 3 (Spy Gear, Gun), Evasion, Jack-of-All-Trades, Ranged Attack 5

Powers:
"Martial Arts" Strength-Damage +1 [1]

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Gun +10 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Initiative +5

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +12 (DC 22), Toughness +3, Fortitude +5, Will +6

Complications:
Relationship (Batman)
Relationship (Father, Ra's al-Ghul)- Talia must follow her father's will, even if it sets her against her beloved.

Total: Abilities: 68 / Skills: 48--24 / Advantages: 12 / Powers: 1 / Defenses: 14 (119)

-Talia is pretty much the OTHER classic Femme Fatale in Bat-lore, seducing Bruce on more than one occasion, and manipulating him the rest of the time thanks to Daddy's will. Personally, I prefer Selina, but comics keeps getting weird with her, and at least Talia remains pretty consistent over time. In one episode, she acts as a "Sexy Spy Lady", getting close to Batman before running off. A later episode reveals that she is the daughter of Ra's al-Ghul, who intends to make the "Detective" his heir. "My daughter, Talia, LOVES you" he flatly states. Talia mourns the loss when her "Beloved" rejects the leadership of the Society of Shadows. Later episodes feature her as an antagonist and generally her father's chief agent. In "Batman Beyond", she returns, having willfully given up her life so that her father can inhabit her body- they attempt to get Bruce Wayne to undergo the Lazarus Pit treatment, but he ultimately gives it up after the first attempts.

-She's a PL 8 with considerable talent at the Spy game, but she's a ways below Bruce on every level (watching "Off Balance", you definitely get that impression, as Bats has to lead her through the castle and fight the Count Vertigo-esque dude), and doesn't even make her full caps. She's capable (especially against Mooks), but in the long run, she falls short of many Bat-Rogues.

About the Performers: Talia was played by two different actresses. The first Helen Slater, is a pretty minor actress known mostly for playing Supergirl in her titular film- a role that drew a fair bit of attention at the time. I heard an, um, unbecoming rumor that her career was damaged when she did a nude scene shortly thereafter, revealing that her Supergirl costume had been... padded, somewhat. But the movie was itself a failure, and the character's death in the comics was blamed partially on that. She was also in "City Slickers", and a handful of big-time 1980s films, so she was definitely a name for a bit, usually in anything that needed a pretty blonde (of which Hollywood had a LOT of in the 1980s). has made a bit of a running thing out of being in other Super-shows, such as "Smallville", and "Supergirl" (where she plays Kara's adoptive mother).

-For non-"Batman: TAS" shows ("Superman" and "Batman Beyond"), Talia was played by Olivia Hussey instead. Hussey is BY FAR most famous for appearing in the 1968 "Romeo & Juliet", famous for being the only time teenage High Schoolers were allowed to see boobs in their classes. And yes, she is FIFTEEN there (funnily enough, I remember teachers & students going on about how she was a case of "Dawson Casting", because OF COURSE no teen could be that busty). Being in a movie that well-known pretty much meant her career was defined by it, but she was in a handful of other stuff, playing Mary in "Jesus of Nazareth" nine years later. Appearing in some minor productions in the 1980s, she went on to Voice Acting later, doing "Star Wars" stuff.

[Jabroniville]

Finest Moment: I'm drawing a blank (someone help me out here...)

In the episode "Never Fear", he ties up Batman and goes after Scarecrow by himself saying Batman is out of control and no longer afraid to kill.

I'd say it was when he overcame the Joker's torture in the Batman Beyond movie to not kill Batman after being driven insane from 2 weeks of constant torture.

Ah, good one.

[Jabroniville]

Hey- time for some random "Past Remarks", from my 2011 (JESUS that was a long time ago) "DCAU" set:
Ares:

I'd actually put Superman: The Animated Series over Justice League and Justice League Unlimited by a margin, being above those shows but below Batman:TAS. Paul Dini was involved in the Superman series, and did an excellent job of characterization, storytelling and tone that was lost once the show became solely controlled by Timm. One thing as well was that Dini actually understood the need for consistent powerlevels, villains who could challenge the hero physically, mentally and so forth, whereas Timm when the Jeph Leob route of 'Superman has been holding back and thus if he tries a little harder, he'll win'.

In a lot of ways, Superman: TAS maintained a lot of the elements of Batman: TAS, and while many of the episodes weren't as iconic, a lot of them were close. The scene of Superman standing over the grave of his friend, saying sadly "Goodbye old friend. In the end, the world didn't need a super man. Just a brave one." was one of the saddest moments in television. I mean, my God, they had Darkseid KILL an established character ON SCREEN, just to deny Superman a total victory. This show was great about pushing emotional buttons in a way the JLU never came close to.

Clare Redfield (lol):

Great animated Batman build, Jab, and for what it's worth, it's my favorite version of Batman, as well. I don't know how they did it, but they got that show perfect. Now, I have a request and some responses.

I agree with all this (stuff about Batman's skill over power). I hate it when guys like Batman or Wolverine are pushed way too hard, but when done right, this is what you get. Plus, the quote you have for him... though I've only seen it once, well over a decade ago, that episode still is the first thing to come to mind when I think of the show. Kevin Conroy is awesome, the show is awesome, Batman like this is as cool as can be.

I love the Catwoman from the show. In Arkham City, I use her Animated costume most often. Something about the way the belt sits on her hips is... well, anyway, will you stat her up next? I like Bruce Timm art, myself. And in case you haven't seen it, I reward your great work here with a Bruce Timm rendition of Power Girl:

Thorp:

I am a Justice League fanboy so I rank it first, but not by much, and I love Batman TAS and Superman TAS over any other comic based TV shows before or since. It's like ranking my kids, almost, but then again, I've never had to tell those shows to pick up their rooms or brush their teeth, or change their dirty diapers, so they are all running WAY ahead of the Little Thorpacolypses.

I've been recording Batman TAS off The Hub every day and making the youngest Thorpacolypse watch it with me and loving it. I can't believe I missed the two part Feat of Clay on this run, since it is my personal favorite. But I certainly can't argue with any of those top ten that Jab listed.

I guess I lean towards Justice League and JLU because of some of the great takes on some of the B and C list heroes. The Question, Vigilante and Huntress in particular. Tell me The Question didn't just rule Season 1 of JLU and I will call you a poo-poo-head. And villain-wise, Grodd was epic and Luthor even went up a notch from his Superman TAS incarnation, which was great, too. Looking forward to the rest of the DCAU.

Gazman: (wow, 2011 for him)

YES! I love Batman. I love Batman the Animated Series. I love Justice League (Unlimited). Its nice to see a Batman that actually has to fight a bunch of thugs, rather than just show up with a +20 attack bonus. The explosive batarangs are great touch for the JLU version. The only thing I don't see is a snare from some bolos or turning his grapple gun on a guy.

I also like how your Catwoman is actually superior to Batman in a few small ways. But why no wealth for Selina? She's got a sweet apartment, some nice jewelry, and a full personal assistant to help with all her charity work.

Anyway, I can not wait to see more Batstuff.

On the subject of superhero cartoons, what do you guys think of Spectacular Spider-Man. Its one of a very few shows that actually made me say "Oh my God, I love this show." out loud while watching.

Me:

Wow, my DCAU builds are garnering a lot of attention- that's quite cool. Thanks to everyone- I find it funny that Christmas seasons seems to be busier than U.S. Thanksgiving season on this board- I was complaining to Kreuz a while back that NOBODY was reading anything on this board a month ago, and my Builds wouldn't get a comment, yet I'd only be three builds below the top of the board. Now we're all getting a lot more attention. That's quite cool.

Weird aside- going over some older builds, I noticed a LOT of names that kind of vanished over time. I think Geekery stopped showing up here, and he was a pretty regular commenter. I also notice that with each new set of builds, I tend to get a new set of "commenters" on my thread- X-Men, Avengers & Alpha Flight all bring in different crowds, I guess. DC builds bring in yet another one. There are certain types who always seem to be around, but I find it interesting how it works, when you have a more generalized concept.

Makes me realize just how few comments people get when they post ORIGINAL builds (that's part of why I tend not to, despite having done my own original stuff fairly regularly). Or worse yet, Builds with no PICTURES. I remember my early days of posting, when I had none... the second I added pics, suddenly I had four times as many comments.

re: "Batman Beyond" builds. Why not? I haven't seen that show in a... freaking LONG time (as in "before Justice League came on the air"), and I think I only saw 15-20 episodes tops (probably the debuts of Shriek and that Scimitar Chick, the Royal Flush Gang, as well as when Blight got his powers and when he 'died' because of his son doing some stuff), but the Wiki sites have REALLY stepped up over the past couple years (has anyone else noticed that? We went from Wikipedia and the Official Handbook sites only to TONS of individualized Wikis for every little thing), making it much easier to assess power levels and scope of abilities. Does anyone have a list of the decent villains from "Batman Beyond", since I probably won't do ALL of them?

Razzputin:

Considering you gave us awesome pictures of the female cast members I didn't find (my Wicked fandom) annoying at all.

P.S. Also thanks to your links to "WIcked" my wife finally got to see the play. It's not showing anywhere near us so thank you.

LuketheDuke: (aka L-Space)

Cool, thanks a lot Jab (for statting Batman Beyond, too)! As for some good villains from the show, I was always fond of Blight, Inque, Curare (the scimitar chick), Spellbinder (who had a cool costume design) and Shriek.

I've noticed the increase in Wikis too and have found it quite useful for getting info on the lesser known characters I've seen in comics. Though honestly when reading the Age of X (which had several mutant characters that were unknown to me) I found myself checking out your thread to get the info before trying the marvel wiki.

I noticed the lull in postings on the ATT last month as well. I would post more often but a lot of the time I either can't quite articulate what I'm trying to say or don't feel that I have anything constructive to add besides telling people "good job" and "keep it up" which I know some people find annoying.

Arkite:

I'm usually always here.
Admittedly I'm not always here for the builds themselves, as I don't run any games and don't really need the refference materials, but more for your thoughts and information on the characters themselves.
I'm always finding myself learning something interesting, be it about characters I've never heard of before, history I never knew about, or trivia.
Always interesting.
I just rarely comment because most of the stuff I'd have to say currently about your DC builds is "I think so too" ;~)
Yeah, it's weird. I find myself bored with posts without even a picture to associate with the build, I'll often just skip it.
As for the original stuff... well, that's the problem with creating something brand new, people aren't as interested in Codename C.A.N.U.C.K. as they are in characters who've actually been in comics for ages now. ;~)

Oh well, I usually throw things up to share my madness more than for the public acclaim.
It's not really fun 'till everybody's as crazy as I am!

SpeedofZound: (oh, so THAT's the name this guy took)

since we heaping praise upon Jab I'll mention that I post on another forum with his guy and he's one of the best poster's over there as well.

BTW, Jab this is the REAL Dutch

Kreuzritter:

hey dutch, good to see another smart cookie abandon herochat's cesspool

Me:

According to a "Batman: Arkham Asylum" forum, some guy who speaks Arabic says that either pronounciation can work. Since Arabic covers a HELL of a lot of ground on the planet, things like that tend to change. Think of how British people add extra "Rs" to words like "saw" (becoming "Sawr")

JetsreamGW:

That may well be true, but that ain't how Ra's pronounces his name. Batman TAS spent entire episodes driving this home, with deliberate (and regular) corrections. Hell, they even did it in Batman Beyond .

Arkite:

Didn't like that episode. (This Little Piggy)
Until Batman sang. That made the whole episode for me.

Now I'm just heartbroken that I can't find a copy of Kevin Conroy singing the entire song!

Me:

"Superman/Batman: Apocalypse" is on Teletoon right now. This is actually pretty decent, ESPECIALLY the animation on the females (almost to the detriment of the males), though it's got all the flaws of the original Jeph Loeb "Supergirl Reintroduction story" (ie. bad pacing, nonsensical twists like "let's assault Kara in the middle of a park so that we can drag her to Paradise Island!", and they never bother to explain who Harbringer is).

Some of the voice acting is good (WW and Batman use the same V.A.s as "JLU" did, though they appear to be half-assing it here), but Summer Glau SUCKS as Kara. Totally an unconvincing voice-actress, though I've never been impressed by her before. She's always playing these unemotional or weird characters, which are the EASIEST KINDS TO PLAY, and she gets uber-love from nerds because she appeals to their interests (oddball skinny girls who appear in nerd-based media).

Also, what the hell kind of a Job Interview (for Fury Leader) is being assaulted by all four Female Furies? Even WONDER WOMAN couldn't take all of them!! What were Darkseid & Granny thinking? And how is Kara magically a supreme fighter enough to last five minutes against Darkseid?

re: Vixen- I give a few characters a Dex of 0 because I don't see much point to it, and Vixen never made a habit of using ranged attacks, driving stuff, or using Sleight of Hand, all of which are Dex-based. She's a melee fighter, and most of those don't need so much of it.

Ivy never actually controlled plants to my knowledge- they were basically Minions. It's left out of her DCA Wikia article as well. The plants just do what she says because they belong to her. Joker & Penguin don't get Minion Control, for example.

Saint_Mathew:

Ditto. I dont get peoples obsession with (Summer Glau). I've always chalked it up to some sort of group delusion to whose source i was not privvy to.
Woodclaw:

Same here. I'm not saying she's a bad actress, but I honestly can't see why all this obsession over her.
My biggest exposure to her was Firefly and I think she did a good job portraying River (which switched between being unemotional to being too emotional), but I think that the looking good factor there was totally secondary.

FuzzyBoots:

^_^ As regards Summer Glau, I think it's the combination of beauty and lack of affect in her emotional tone. It's like their very own robot girlfriend, probably the same reason they're so obsessed over Cameron, Seven of Nine, and the Cylon females. Personally, I think she's great to watch, especially in those quirky roles where she can play up physical grace and lack of social grace, but she's wasted on voice acting where you don't get a chance to see Summer Glau.

Interestingly, while going over the old comments... I found that NOT A LOT OF PEOPLE MADE THEM. Oftentimes, I'd post a Batman: TAS character and not get ANY remarks. So I guess I needn't worry as much over sudden pauses in posts in *2019* so badly, as this is always a thing . What's funny is I seem to remember feeling like there was a STORM of comments flooding me regarding the DCAU- I was saying that the lack of DC builds on the forums (owing to the release of DC Adventures) was the reason. But now it doesn't look like there were quite as many as I remembered sometimes.

The 2011 set was actually ALL the DCAU, so I was hopping from Batman to JLU pretty frequently. Kind of schizophrenic, but I wanted to do something different than my 2e set in the same universe.

[Jabroniville]

re: Mister Freeze:
Murkglow:

Ah Mr. Freeze... Best Villain Ever or Best Villain Ever? Well ok maybe I just love tragic/sympathetic characters too much but dang. Just reading those lines makes me so sad. *Sigh*
Catsi:

Defiantely one of the best and easilly one of the DCAU/Timmverses best character fixes. Made all the more "chilling" by Michael Ansaras icey toned performance. He portrays thaty I have no emotions vibe soo well, but you can feel the emotional context of the scene and what the character "Should be feeling" inspite of that.

SaintMatthew:

Jabroniville how did you get so very awesome? I mean seriously, i would get bored building other people characters, but you just keep on stating them up. So many JLU characters

[Jabroniville]

"Very good, Detective. You're everything I could hope for in an heir."

RA'S AL-GHUL
Created By: Dennis O'Neil & Neal Adams
First Appearance: Batman #232 (June 1971)
Role: The Master Villain, Super-Environmentalist
Mental Problems: Delusions of Grandeur, Obsession with Batman, Obsession With Finding an Heir, Misanthropy
Voice Actor: David Warner
First Episode: "Off Balance"
Finest Moment: Nearly killed Batman in every fight
PL 9 (175)
STRENGTH 3 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 12 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 7 AWARENESS 6 PRESENCE 5

Skills:
Deception 7 (+12)
Expertise (Arcane Lore) 6 (+13)
Expertise (Science) 5 (+12)
Expertise (History) 8 (+15)
Expertise (Theology & Philosophy) 5 (+12)
Insight 6 (+12)
Intimidation 5 (+12)
Investigation 6 (+12)
Perception 6 (+12)
Persuasion 6 (+11)
Stealth 4 (+8)
Technology 4 (+11)
Vehicles 2 (+7)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Beginner's Luck, Benefit 5 (Leader of the Society of Shadows), Diehard, Equipment 11 (Scimitar +3, Bases), Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Sword), Improved Disarm, Leadership, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 5, Seize Initiative, Taunt

Equipment:
"Scimitar" Strength-Damage +3 (Feats: Improved Critical) (4)

Offense:
Unarmed +12 (+3 Damage, DC 17)
Scimitar +12 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +13 (DC 23), Toughness +4, Fortitude +7, Will +11

Complications:
Responsibility (Talia)
Obsession (Getting the Batman as his Heir)

Total: Abilities: 92 / Skills: 70--35 / Advantages: 31 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 17 (175)

-The final build of my Batman: TAS stuff is Ra's al-Ghul, another guy I had no idea existed in the comics, brought in as part of an exact replica of an old Neal Adams story, where he discovered Bruce Wayne's double-nature as Batman using pure smarts, and uncovered a massive plot and cover-up in order to get the "Detective" to take over his organization and control the planet, wiping it clean of the evil that took his parent's lives. But that would result in loss of free will and tons of death itself, so Bats rejected him, and many shirtless swordfights were had. Ra's was the most dangerous of Batman's foes in terms of sheer scope, capability and goals, resulting in an epic struggle every time they faced each other, and was as close a mental match as the Bat ever had.

-There was also his daughter Talia, who didn't do much more than become a damsel in distress unfortunately, being nowhere near as capable as her comics version. She still had the 'hair over one eye' Femme Fatale thing going, but that's common of most women in this show.

-Ra's al-Ghul is a beast on points for good reason, having a massive organization with bases, etc. behind him. He's actually a match for Batman in a swordfight, and is just as smart, just a little less focused & skilled at the various things Bruce has had to excel in just for being a solo character. Ubu is no pushover either, being a rather capable henchman. All in all, I'd say Ra's is a bit less a threat than The Joker to Batman personally, which is about right.

About the Performer: David Warner has a famously-icy, evil-sounding British voice, and has appeared in countless productions, while still not being "too big" to do cartoons. He got his start in the 1950s doing Shakespeare, working off and on in pictures, becoming known for playing villains eventually. He was a bad guy in "Tron", but played against type in the George S. Scott version of "A Christmas Carol", playing Bob Cratchit. He did a lot of work in "Star Trek", showed up as the scientist in "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II", and more- the prototypical "Shakespearean Actor doing Sci-Fi Work". He moved onto Voice Acting, playing Ra's al-Ghul in "Batman" and The Archmage in "Gargoyles".



UBU
Created By: Dennis O'Neil & Neal Adams
First Appearance: Batman #232 (June 1971)
Role: Big Mook
Mental Problems: Arrogance
Voice Actor: Michael Horse
First Episode: "Off Balance"
Finest Moment: Gave Batman his water bottle in gratitude for Batman saving his life.
PL 7 (79)
STRENGTH 4 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 9 DEXTERITY 1
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+6)
Deception 2 (+2)
Expertise (Bodyguard) 4 (+4)
Intimidation 6 (+6)
Perception 4 (+4)
Vehicles 3 (+4)

Advantages:
Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Pin, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 7

Offense:
Unarmed +9 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +5, Fortitude +7, Will +4

Complications:
Responsibility (Ra's al-Ghul)

Total: Abilities: 44 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 11 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 13 (79)

-My personal favourite moments for Ra's still have to be Ubu ones, though. The first: When Batman angrily remarks "Let's just call that... Strike One" when Ubu shoves him out of the way for entering a room before his master. The second: When Ubu, having had his life saved by Bruce earlier during a pyramid collapse, offers a bit of silent gratitude to Batman by tossing him a canteen of water, as Ra's & Co. prepare to leave him to die in the desert. It's the little things like that that show you the writers pay attention to detail, and throw little bits of characterization in there whenever they can.

About the Performer: Michael Horse is a Native American actor and painter. He was in an ill-fated "Lone Ranger" film in 1981 as Tonto (a troubled "Lone Ranger" production? Will wonders never cease!), and was in "Twin Peaks" for a while.

[Jabroniville]

And that does it for the Batman: The Animated Series characters! Next up... the sequel series, of sorts- three days of Batman Beyond builds !

[Shock]

I was hooked on Batman Beyond as soon as I saw the intro. It's probably my favorite cartoon intro ever.

[Jabroniville]

BATMAN BEYOND:
-And now, Batman Beyond! This show was formulated when DC was basically like "Do a show about Teen Batman!" and the writers were like "WTF?", until they landed on this concept. Basically, the show takes place in a Dark Future where Gotham (still always drawn in black, just about) is... still a place filled with crime. Young Terry McGinnis loses his father to corporate greed, and goes for revenge, while he accidentally discovers that the "Old Man Wayne" he's rescued was actually BATMAN in the past! The two come to an uneasy alliance, with Terry wielding the specialized, high-tech Bat-Suit to avenge his father's murder, and they begrudgingly form a new partnership- with the elderly Bruce Wayne guiding Terry from within the Batcave. As Terry is smart-mouthed, self-assured and has the emotions of youth, it's a pretty dramatic difference- Wayne is dry, cynical, brusque and commanding. Their interplay is basically the point of the show.

The show has a few major "shifts" in the theme- Terry, unlike Bruce, is rather social, and has some friends. He has a steady girlfriend- Dana- and even has a mother at home, as well as a little brother. These link him to the real world in a way that Bruce often lacked.

The show is REALLY popular with the nerd crowd, though the villains never gained much fame, but ultimately, I find it lacked a few things. Honestly, like ThunderCats, the most notable thing about it was the bad-ass OPENING SEQUENCE- full of great shifts in scenery, dark theme matter, weird villains, and screechy techno-music. Most of the episodes generally felt the same. Dana, despite being the hero's best girl and featured in a good number of episodes, NEVER really developed a real personality- she just looked sexy in the opening and that's it. Will Friedle was honestly rather stilted as Terry- his goofy characters (like Ron Stoppable in Kim Possible) are much more energetic and fun- here, he came off like he was trying too hard to be grim and serious, and so his voice never really shifted. Sharing scenes with KEVIN CONROY didn't help.

The Rogues Gallery mostly looked cool, but didn't have a lot of depth. Overall, the show is a good one, but I never felt it came close to the original Batman: TAS, and was only around as good as the final season of The New Batman Adventures.

My notes while watching it:
Also, I've been watching some Batman Beyond recently, and.... well, it just doesn't really hold up. Will Friedle's voice is better-suited to comedy (Ron Stoppable 4 life) and not drama (he comes off too stodgy and stilted), the villains are pretty forgettable save for some interesting looks (Inque, Curare and Spellbinder are basically just "generic bad guy" with a good design), the Future Slang is OH MY GOD KILL ME NOW-level bad, and Dana is the most forgettably-nothing "Girlfriend Character" ever. She literally exists for a 20-second scene in each episode where Terry bails on her and goes to do Batman stuff.

The only REALLY good episode I've seen is the creepy-ass "Guy gets trapped underground for 15 years and becomes an earth-controlling living corpse" one.

Dana in particular is real trouble. The hero has a STEADY GIRLFRIEND and even with an episode or two of focus (like when a nerd who's crushing on her kidnaps her), she's basically "Terry's Pretty Asian Girlfriend in a Black Dress". That's like, her entire character. Contrasting Max, who is strong, vital, spiteful and a bit forceful, Dana is just "there".

BatgirlIII corroborated my take:

Thank you! I've been saying the same thing about Batman Beyond for seventeen years!

Heck, I don't even like the design of the bat-suit, and based on the reactions of most of the fanbase, you'd think I was risking excommunication from Bat-Fandom for saying so.

It wasn't a bad show, but I've never understood the level of hype it attracts.

Arkite's Rebuttal:

Sorry to hear you didn't enjoy Batman Beyond.
I am willing to concede that you are correct about pretty much everything you have to say, the slang is a bit forced, and a lot of the side characters get ignored where they should have been built up. Dana was a huge one. The villains are another huge mistep in terms of character building. Sadly we didn't even get any hints at the bat family until the Return of the Joker.

I will say I liked Will Friedle as Terry... but I'm a fan of the series so take that with a grain of salt.

The thing that always got me about the series was how dark a lot of the episodes were, and how the endings didn't always fix anything.
I remember one whole episode being about a guy who's bullied by pretty much everybody, treated like crap, then finds a way to get his revenge... doesn't really accomplish anything other than throwing one of his bullys over the pier into some water, then is dragged off to prison.
While all of the bullies, and people who treated him horribly just stand there and shake their head about what a freak he was.

And yeah, the one about the guy trapped underground was some pretty dark and heavy stuff for what was basically a kid's cartoon show.

I did hear one story, though I can't be sure how true it is, that when they first got the concept it was from a corporate exec who wanted to get rid of the Batman Animated series and replace it with a more kid friendly, kid centric show. And change it so that Batman was a kid. And lived in an apartment. And had a Batcycle hidden behind a dumpster.
... And I'm just realizing how much of this sounds like Batgirl from the Adam West TV series...

Apparently the whole crew just walked out after the meeting in disgust. Except for one dude who was like "No... wait, this could work!"
And then promptly turned it into something far darker than that exec was hoping for.

Of course that seemed to be a thing for those guys. If the censor said "it's too dark for a kids show", they'd replace it with something darker that didn't offend the censor.

I'm looking at you, Return of the Joker.

[greycrusader]

Some series just suffer in comparison; Batman Beyond is a well above average show (owing to the strength of the source material) which just pales next to B:TAS and even against JLU. Those cartoons did SO many things right-they turned otherwise rather silly or forgettable villains into memorable characters, even ones with real menace or pathos, just by making the right tweaks-or taking a Silver Age/Bronze Age name and concept into a far superior direction (Clock King, Firefly, Amazo, just for a few). Great voice work, picking the right mix of heroes and villains, coming up with a few home-run originals (Calendar Girl, Live Wire, Galetea, the Ultimi-Men, the new Royal Flush Gang). Batman Beyond only really had ONE cool villain (Inque), with the others mostly being fairly generic or just retreads of existing concepts. But still-one of the better spin-offs in TV animation.

All my best.

[Jabroniville]

BATMAN II (Terry McGinnis)
Created By: Bruce Timm
Role: The Replacement Hero, Ex-Punk Kid, The Peter Parker, The Legacy Hero
Voice Actor: Will Friedle
Finest Moment: Made Bruce Wayne proud of him
PL 10 (205)
STRENGTH 2/6 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 6
FIGHTING 12 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 7 (+13)
Athletics 4 (+6, +10)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+14)
Close Combat (Claws) 1 (+13)
Deception 7 (+10)
Expertise (Science) 2 (+4)
Expertise (Streetwise) 6 (+8)
Insight 4 (+7)
Intimidation 4 (+7)
Investigation 6 (+9)
Perception 5 (+8)
Persuasion 3 (+6)
Ranged Combat (Regular Batarangs) 2 (+14)
Stealth 6 (+12)
Technology 3 (+5)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Agile Feint, Beginner's Luck, Benefit 2 (Bruce Wayne as Ally, League Member), Defensive Attack, Equipment 8 (Flying Batmobile, Batcomputer, etc.), Fascination (Deception), Great Endurance, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Claws), Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Luck, Move-By Action, Power Attack, Precise Attack (Ranged/Cover), Quick Change, Ranged Attack 8, Redirect, Takedown, Taunt, Tracking

Powers:
"Batman Suit" (Flaws: Removable) [46]
Enhanced Strength 4 (8)
Protection 2 (2)
Immunity 12 (Fire Damage, Heat, Cold, Electrical Damage) (Flaws: Limited to Half-Effect) (6)

"Exploding Batarangs" Blast 8 (16) -- (23)

• AE: "Batarangs" Blast 6 (Feats: Variable- Cutting or Electric) (13)
• AE: Electrical Aura 5 (Flaws: Unreliable- 5 Uses) (15)
• AE: "Grappling Hook" Movement 1 (Swinging) (2)
• AE: "Flashbang Grenades" Blast 5 Linked to Dazzle Visuals 5 (Both Have Flaws: Limited- Low Supply) (10)
• AE: "Smoke Pellets" Concealment (Visuals) 2 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Cloud +2) (8)
• AE: "Cable Batarangs" Snare 6 (18)
• AE: "Shooting Discs"

"Claws" Strike 1 (Feats: Split) (2)
Movement 1 (Wall-Crawling) (2)
"Boot-Jet & Wings" Flight 4 (30 mph) (Flaws: Needs Wings to Fly Well -1/2) (6)
"Cloaking Device" Concealment (Visuals) 4 (Flaws: Limited- Drains Supply- No Other Powers) (2)
Senses 6 (Extended, Infra & Darkvision, Communication Link- Batcave, Extended Hearing) (6)
Immunity 1 (Drowning) (1)
-- (57 points)

Equipment:
"Batmobile" (Huge, ST 8, Flight 7- 250 mph, Defense +0, Toughness 10, Features- Alarm, Caltrops, Oil Slick, Remote Control, Computer) (26)
"Assorted Gear" (14)

Offense:
Unarmed +14 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Batman Suit +14 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Claws +13 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Batarangs +14 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Exploding Batarangs +12 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Flashbang Grenades +12 (+5 Ranged Damage & Affliction, DC 20 & 15)
Electrical Aura +14 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Initiative +6

Defenses:
Dodge +13 (DC 23), Parry +13 (DC 23), Toughness +4 (+6 Batman Suit), Fortitude +7, Will +9

Complications:
Relationship (Mom & Matt, Family)- Terry lost his father, and he swears he'll lose no one else.
Relationship (Bruce Wayne)- The old man is a stern, overbearing father-figure, but the two truly do care for each other.
Responsibility (The Batman Legacy)
Relationship (Loves Dana Tan)- They're... off and on, to say the least. McGinnis has Parker-esque luck with women (ie. he scores hotties, but problems always occur).
Enemy (Blight, Charlie Bigelow & Others)
Power Loss (Batarangs)- Terry has a limited supply of Batarangs- it is concievable that he could run out.

Total: Abilities: 72 / Skills: 64--32 / Advantages: 39 / Powers: 46 / Defenses: 17 (205)

-So here's Terry McGinnis, aka "Batman Beyond"! Terry was very much your typical "Peter Parker Hero", with real problems, real school, a real family, and some guilt in him to make him a better super-hero. Playing off the aged Bruce Wayne at the Batcave, the show was quite good, though in my opinion tended to feature a bit too much "crazy new fad in Gotham is revealed to be an evil plot", though that could just be some bad random selection- I've seen 15-ish episodes, I'd guess, including the debuts of Curare, Shriek and when Powers turned into Blight. Plus one with Ace the Bat-Hound and the new Royal Flush Gang. In the end, most of the quality was in the playing off of Terry & Bruce. By the time of JLU, we discover that Terry is actually possessing Bruce's DNA, effectively being a son/clone of him, thanks to Amanda Waller's projects back in her Cadmus days.

-As an experienced adult, Terry can almost match Bruce in many ways. His suit is still very high tech, he's got a ton of Skills & Advantages picked up from his days as a learning super-hero in Batman's shadow (though as Waller notes- he never quite got Bruce's incredible mind), and he's an extremely good fighter. However, he's altogether less combat-worthy overall than the original Batman is. But still, a suit with built-in Batarangs, Claws, Climbing & Swinging, a Rebreather, Cloaking Field, Flight, Electrified Circuits, Smoke Bombs, Grenades, & Super-Senses in addition to the usual battlesuit stuff? Yeah, that's pretty sweet. A full list of his potential Equipment is here, but he's also got the basic Batarangs in his suit. I stuck with the "Batarangs as Powers", mainly because he's still got a Weapons Array in the Suit regardless, and he can't effectively be "Disarmed" of all of them without stripping the dude naked.

-Note that Terry can hit PL 11 as an adult (probably just by boosting his Aim & Fighting- this version's already quite elite with his Skills & Advantages), and is mostly PL 9 (lowers stats almost across the board) within the context of 90% of the T.V. series- he's good, but only a match for most of his PL 9 Rogues, and he's CERTAINLY not better than Bruce ever was- about equal to "T.A.S." Batman, but losing out heavily to the more elite, later versions.

About the Performer: Will Friedle is best-known for playing the older brother Eric on "Boy Meets World" for seven years, but nerds known him best as Ron Stoppable, the affable, clumsy sidekick with "dumb skill" on "Kim Possible". He's also the new voice of Star-Lord in "Guardians of the Galaxy", Lion-O in the silly "ThunderCats", and more. Terry is probably the closest thing to an ongoing serious role he's had, as everything else is usually comedy.

BATMAN II (Terry McGinnis)
Created By: Bruce Timm
Role: The Replacement Hero, Ex-Punk Kid, The Peter Parker, The Legacy Hero
Voice Actor: Will Friedle
Finest Moment: Made Bruce Wayne proud of him
PL 9 (184)
STRENGTH 2/6 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 11 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 6 (+12)
Athletics 4 (+6, +10)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+12)
Deception 5 (+8)
Expertise (Science) 2 (+4)
Expertise (Streetwise) 4 (+6)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 3 (+6)
Investigation 3 (+6)
Perception 4 (+7)
Persuasion 3 (+6)
Ranged Combat (Regular Batarangs) 2 (+12)
Stealth 4 (+9)
Technology 3 (+5)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Beginner's Luck, Benefit (Bruce Wayne as Ally), Equipment 8 (Flying Batmobile, Batcomputer, etc.), Fascination (Deception), Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Claws), Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Luck, Move-By Action, Power Attack, Precise Attack (Ranged/Cover), Quick Change, Ranged Attack 6, Redirect, Taunt, Tracking

Powers:
"Batman Suit" (Flaws: Removable) [46]
Enhanced Strength 4 (8)
Protection 2 (2)
Immunity 12 (Fire Damage, Heat, Cold, Electrical Damage) (Flaws: Limited to Half-Effect) (6)

"Exploding Batarangs" Blast 8 (16) -- (23)

• AE: "Batarangs" Blast 6 (Feats: Variable- Cutting or Electric) (13)
• AE: Electrical Aura 5 (Flaws: Unreliable- 5 Uses) (15)
• AE: "Grappling Hook" Movement 1 (Swinging) (2)
• AE: "Flashbang Grenades" Blast 5 Linked to Dazzle Visuals 5 (Both Have Flaws: Limited- Low Supply) (10)
• AE: "Smoke Pellets" Concealment (Visuals) 2 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Cloud +2) (8)
• AE: "Cable Batarangs" Snare 6 (18)
• AE: "Shooting Discs"

"Claws" Strike 1 (Feats: Split) (2)
Movement 1 (Wall-Crawling) (2)
"Boot-Jet & Wings" Flight 4 (30 mph) (Flaws: Needs Wings to Fly Well -1/2) (6)
"Cloaking Device" Concealment (Visuals) 4 (Flaws: Limited- Drains Supply- No Other Powers) (2)
Senses 6 (Extended, Infra & Darkvision, Communication Link- Batcave, Extended Hearing) (6)
Immunity 1 (Drowning) (1)
-- (57 points)

Equipment:
"Batmobile" (Huge, ST 8, Flight 7- 250 mph, Defense +0, Toughness 10, Features- Alarm, Caltrops, Oil Slick, Remote Control, Computer) (26)
"Assorted Gear" (14)

Offense:
Unarmed +12 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Batman Suit +12 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Claws +11 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Batarangs +12 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Exploding Batarangs +10 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Flashbang Grenades +10 (+5 Ranged Damage & Affliction, DC 20 & 15)
Electrical Aura +13 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Initiative +6

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (DC 21), Parry +12 (DC 22), Toughness +3 (+5 Batman Suit), Fortitude +6, Will +8

Complications:
Relationship (Mom & Matt, Family)- Terry lost his father, and he swears he'll lose no one else.
Relationship (Bruce Wayne)- The old man is a stern, overbearing father-figure, but the two truly do care for each other.
Responsibility (The Batman Legacy)
Relationship (Loves Dana Tan)- They're... off and on, to say the least. McGinnis has Parker-esque luck with women (ie. he scores hotties, but problems always occur).
Enemy (Blight, Charlie Bigelow & Others)
Power Loss (Batarangs)- Terry has a limited supply of Batarangs- it is concievable that he could run out.

Total: Abilities: 68 / Skills: 48--24 / Advantages: 31 / Powers: 46 / Defenses: 15 (184)

-PL 9 Terry is less-capable all-around, but still a very good hero. He's about even with some of the lower-end Marvel heroes (Night Thrasher, etc.), and quite the Skillmonkey on his own.

[Ares]

Hey- time for some random "Past Remarks", from my 2011 (JESUS that was a long time ago) "DCAU" set:
Ares:

I'd actually put Superman: The Animated Series over Justice League and Justice League Unlimited by a margin, being above those shows but below Batman:TAS. Paul Dini was involved in the Superman series, and did an excellent job of characterization, storytelling and tone that was lost once the show became solely controlled by Timm. One thing as well was that Dini actually understood the need for consistent powerlevels, villains who could challenge the hero physically, mentally and so forth, whereas Timm when the Jeph Leob route of 'Superman has been holding back and thus if he tries a little harder, he'll win'.

In a lot of ways, Superman: TAS maintained a lot of the elements of Batman: TAS, and while many of the episodes weren't as iconic, a lot of them were close. The scene of Superman standing over the grave of his friend, saying sadly "Goodbye old friend. In the end, the world didn't need a super man. Just a brave one." was one of the saddest moments in television. I mean, my God, they had Darkseid KILL an established character ON SCREEN, just to deny Superman a total victory. This show was great about pushing emotional buttons in a way the JLU never came close to.

Hey, an old quote where I've actually changed my mind since then, as opposed to the posts where I basically repeat the same points year after year.

Having given Superman: TAS a re-watch a year or so back, I have to admit that it doesn't hold up as well. Tim Daly just doesn't capture Superman's voice in the same way Kevin Conroy just owned Batman. Dana Delany and Clancy Brown owned their roles as Lois Lane and Lex Luthor MUCH more. They just seemed to have a harder time with Superman than with Batman, unable to really re-master villains that weren't broken, though they did add a few new ones in like Livewire. The action was overall okay as well, but nothing fantastic.

Years later, if I had to rank the DCAU series, it'd probably go:

1) Batman: The Animated Series
2) Justice League Season 2 / Justice League Unlimited Season 1
3) The New Batman Adventures / Superman: TAS
4) Justice League Season 1 / Justice League Unlimited Season 2 / Batman Beyond / Static Shock


None of these shows are really BAD per-say, but Batman: TAS has episodes that qualify as ART, as Jab mentioned, and you need other excellent series like Gargoyles or Avatar: The Last Airbender to really come close to the best Batman:TAS put out. Even its weaker shows like the one with Maxi Zeus are still competently executed.

Justice League Season 2 and JLU Season 1 do a solid job of introducing a larger DCAU, step up the action, have some great moral dilemmas, and come closest to Batman: TAS in quality. The scene where the Batmen fight in "A Better World" is great, the ongoing moral issue of the CADMUS arc is fantastic, and the fight scenes are all great. JL/JLU also benefitted from having ongoing story arcs whereas Batman:TAS only had two-parters, mostly focusing on the strength of their single episodes.

The New Batman Adventures and Superman: TAS are both a step down in quality, the animation being generally poorer than Batman: TAS and the League series. The action isn't as great, the stories aren't as well put together, and there's legitimately forgettable episodes. But at the same time, you occasionally get moments of greatness and real emotion, such as the Robin episode with the Clayface girl, the death of Dan Turpin, the Batgirl dream episode, etc.

The bottom tier has the largest collection because here it feels like we've gotten to "average cartoon series" quality. All of these shows are very "hit or miss", some solid episodes, some genuinely bad episodes, a lot of "okay" episode. Batman Beyond had a fun dynamic with Bruce and Terry, as well as the notion of a cyberpunk DCAU, but the episodes themselves largely were pretty formulaic. Static Shock was based on one of my favorite Milestone properties (the other being Icon), and while it did its job of being "black electic Spider-Man", it wasn't consistently good. And the early and later JL/JLU seasons were very "meh" for the most part.

[Ares]

Ra's al-Ghul is a Batman villain that made it clear that Bruce was not just a guy who beat up thugs stealing TVs. While Bruce was based in Gotham, he was more than capable of dealing with "end of the world" scope Bond villains, with Ra's being basically Middle Eastern Fu Manchu. He wasn't just some bank robber with a gimmick or some nut job with a cold gun, he was a master villain with centuries of experience, a world-wide organization, legions of assassins, advanced technology, etc. While the Joker is Batman's #1 enemy, Ra's is probably #2 in my mind.

[Jabroniville]

SPELLBINDER (Ira Billings)
Created By: Robert Goodman & Butch Lukic
Role: Master of Illusions
Mental Problems: Greed, Vengeance (against the Rich), Need to be Appreciated
Voice Actor: Jon Cypher
First Episode: "Spellbound"
Finest Moment: Hypnotized Barbara Gordon
PL 10 (123)
STRENGTH 1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 5 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Athletics 2 (+3)
Deception 7 (+8)
Expertise (Psychology) 4 (+8)
Expertise (Criminal) 2 (+4)
Expertise (Science) 6 (+10)
Insight 4 (+7)
Perception 2 (+5)
Stealth 2 (+5)
Technology 9 (+13)
Vehicles 2 (+2)

Advantages:
Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
"Spellbinder Costume" (Flaws: Removable) [52]
"Hypnosis" Affliction 10 (Will; Entranced/Compelled/Controlled) (Feats: Indirect 4) (Extras: Area- Visual Perception, Cumulative, Continuous +3) (64 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +5 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Hypnosis +10 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 20)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +7 (DC 17), Parry +7 (DC 17), Toughness +2, Fortitude +4, Will +4

Complications:
Motivation (Greed, Appreciation, Revenge on The Rich)- Poorly-paid as a High School Psychologist, Ira Billings feels underappreciated, and wants more money.

Total: Abilities: 38 / Skills: 40--20 / Advantages: 4 / Powers: 52 / Defenses: 9 (123)

-Spellbinder's effectively the "Mysterio" or "Scarecrow" of the Batman Beyond universe, being the former Psychologist at Terry McGinnis' High School, who was obsessed with his low wage, and decided to start robbing the richest people in town, using their children as his personal thieves with Mind Controlling tech. Why a guy smart enough to build such things was a HIGH SCHOOL PSYCHOLOGIST is beyond me, but at least they gave him a sweet costume out of the deal.

-Spellbinder's got a +10 Mind Control power to get people to repeatedly do what he asks (it's Continuous in Duration). Sometimes the eye thing can go on it's own apparently, which'd make it either a piece of Equipment in certain areas, or a high-powered Minion.

About the Performer: John Cypher has actually had a REALLY long career, starting out in 1957's TV verrsion of "Cinderella", opposite JULIE ANDREWS. He was the Chief of Police on "Hill Street Blues", which is probably his most iconic role, as well as appearing on "Major Dad" and other shows.

[KorokoMystia]

While I knew the Batman Beyond Spellbinder, I had no idea that they were actually based on an old Batman jobber villain of the same name (They even have the same last name, Billings):

..Yeesh, that costume.

[Jabroniville]

I always thought it was funny that she had these INSANELY huge boobs. Like, gigantic perfect spheres.

MAXINE GIBSON
Created By: Robert Goodman & Dan Riba
Role: Platonic Female Friend
Mental Problems: Lack of Heeding Danger
Voice Actor: Cree Summer
First Episode: "Splicers"
Finest Moment: Sasses Bruce Wayne.
PL 3 (57), PL 4 (57) Saves
STRENGTH 0 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 4 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 5 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Athletics 5 (+5)
Deception 4 (+6)
Expertise (Science) 2 (+7)
Insight 2 (+3)
Perception 4 (+5)
Stealth 3 (+5)
Technology 5 (+10)
Vehicles 1 (+3)

Advantages:
Beginner's Luck

Offense:
Unarmed +4 (+0 Damage, DC 15)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +4 (DC 14), Parry +4 (DC 14), Toughness +2, Fortitude +3, Will +5

Complications:
Relationship (Terry McGinnis)- The two are best friends.
Rivalry (Old Man Wayne)- Max sasses Bruce repeatedly.
Responsibility (Attracts Trouble)- Max's desire to help out often leads her into dangerous situations, out of which she needs to be bailed.

Total: Abilities: 36 / Skills: 26--13 / Advantages: 1 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 7 (57)

-A curious part of Batman Beyond (and one I didn't notice until Teletoon started re-airing it) was that Max is one of the best characters in the show. Shown as Terry's "Platonic Female Friend" (curiously, without ANY in-universe hookup teases at all), Max is smart, sassy and confident, as is typical for a Cree Summer role- her raspy, youthful-sounding voice was ideal for these types. So while Dana was the most generic wallpaper character in history (never really showing any personality type beyond "annoyed" or "scared" in the appropriate situations), Max was a lot more interesting and adventurous. She eventually discovers Terry's secret identity (by making a computer program for fun), forces herself onto the "team", and even starts giving back-talk to BRUCE WAYNE. It was pretty funny seeing grumpy Bruce just kind of have to put up with her (he could give Terry attitude via the suit, but Max got a pass).

-Max is more lucky and plucky than "good" in a lot of cases, but is a technical genius (albeit largely untrained; she isn't an inventor). Despite her gifts, she often just got into trouble, often by over-extending herself or putting herself in harm's way.

About the Performer: Cree Summer is a longtime Voice Actress whose biggest role was probably Kida in "Atlantis: The Lost Empire". I gave her a full bio with my Kida build.