Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

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Thorpocalypse
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Batman Beyond! Inque! Blight! Superman!)

Post by Thorpocalypse »

Indeed. Hear, hear, Ares. Very well said.

If only your Captain Marvel takes were as profound...

;)

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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Batman Beyond! Inque! Blight! Superman!)

Post by RUSCHE »

Oh man it is on now...
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Batman Beyond! Inque! Blight! Superman!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

I mostly agree though I feel like Superman talking to those kids at the start of Justice League was the MOST Superman thing in the DCEU.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Ra's al-Ghul! Batman Beyond! Inque! Blight!)

Post by Woodclaw »

In general, I think that Ares pretty hit the mark, but I would like to add something on some points.
Ares wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:35 pm Personality wise, Superman is a paragon, a sincerely good person very much like Captain America. But where Steve's heroism is filtered through his patriotism and background as a soldier, Clark's heroism is filtered through his upbringing as a farmboy and a reporter. Clark's values come from the down home basic American values, concepts of hard work, of helping things grow, looking out for your neighbor, an "aw shucks" humility and helping out where you can. He's also got the curiosity and instincts of a reporter, being interested in people on a personal level, wanting to know and share their stories, to find out about injustices and either expose them or dealing with them.

Superman, in essence, is the best of American values, but filtered through the lens of the common man rather than through the soldier, the way it is with Captain America.
This is a point I can totally get behind, but there is a massive caveat: how Clark and Steve became what they are. I've seen lots of people arguing that Steve Rogers decided to put what little he had on the line before becoming Cap and after that he had to keep training and struggling to remain at the top of his game, whereas Clark had almost everything handed down to him from above.
This is mostly due to the same bad writing that Ares talked about, but there's this perception that Superman is actually the dark side of the "American Dream", the sense of self-entitlement that often comes from being born in a first world country. While I totally disagree with this interpretation, I fear this is a very common misconception.
What these people fail to understand, in my mind, is that out of the Trinity, Clark is the only character that would be a hero even without his powers. Batman is very much defined by his own obsession, his mission, which is a superpower on its own. Wonder Woman entire story is based on how exceptional she was from the beginning (which is actually why I was really into Straczynski's Odyssey, since he tried to totally uproot her). A while back I tried to conceptualize some DC characters without their powers and Clark was actually the easiest because his greatest asset isn't his powers, but his integrity.
Ares wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:35 pmPower wise, Superman got a solid selection of powers, but there are heroes with just a diverse or more diverse powers who have entertaining stories made about them. His powers can be an issue, but that's less to do with the powers themselves and what writers choose to do with them.
This is also part of the "sense of entitlement" mentality I was talking above: Superman has a lot of powers, often too many to keep track of them, but the real issue is how do you handle their inherent limitations. One of my personal obsessions are super-senses, which are probably the most misrepresented part of his arsenal.
Ares wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:35 pmVillain wise, Superman's actually got a fairly solid rogue's gallery if anyone cares to use them properly. And like the best villains, many of them show darker aspects of Superman's character.

Lex Luthor is a reflection of Superman's "American Way" aspect and general ubermensch concept, but showcases the evils of America. Intelligence without compassion, industry without restraint, the ability to excel being merely a fuel for greed and fame. Luthor is a genius scientist, masterful manipulator and savvy businessman, a mortal without Superman's humility or compassion who sees the world as something merely to amuse his intellect and to heap praise onto him.

Brainiac ties into Superman's alien nature and curiosity, showing a truly alien intelligence, a Man of Tomorrow without Superman's humanity. Everything exists to satisfy Brainiac's own scientific inquiries: beings are to be examined, even dissected, cataloged and stored away like a book in a library. Intelligent beings have not value in and of themselves as anything other than data.

Mister Mxyzptlk is the concept of Superman's power without restraint, someone with absolute power and no sense of responsibility and seeks merely to amuse themselves.

Bizarro is Superman without his intelligence and self-awareness, showing how dangerous Superman could be without the restraint and ability to tell right from wrong that his parents instilled in him.

General Zod is Superman's Kryptonian nature gone bad, showcasing what Superman could be like if he hadn't been raised on Earth. "Truth, Justice and the American Way" become "Kneel Before Zod".

I don't actually consider Darkseid a Superman foe, as Darkseid is suppose to be much bigger than that. Darkseid is a foe for the entire DCU. He's someone the Justice League takes on, not an individual hero, even Superman. It's why I actually think Mongul has a purpose, since he can pose a major threat as a galactic despot with his own WarWorld who is still mostly "just" a Superman threat. Mongul is a big deal, but even he knows to get out of the way when Darkseid shows up.

So on and so forth. And even his jobbers can be entertaining if done right, such as Parasite, Metallo, Toyman, Livewire, Intergang, the Cyborg Superman, Lobo, Doomsday, Silver Banshee, Neutron, etc.
On this count I have to disagree a bit, Superman's rogue gallery has a major issue: Lex Luthor. While I think that all the character Ares mentioned are very good foils, Lex is such an iconic villain that he obscures every other Superman's villain (I have to give credit to Man of Steel for not using Lex as the main villain). Unfortunately, Luthor is also terribly difficult to write: as far as I'm concerned the only writer I can think of that might do him justice is Greg Weisman. Lex is supposed to be a world-class genius, a man that always fall on feet, who can turn every defeat into a new opportunity. One of the key points should be that Supes can beat him, but can't stop him.
Ares wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:35 pmSuperman's supporting cast was largely limited to Ma and Pa Kent, Lois, Jimmy and Perry White for the longest time, but a lot had been done in the 90s to expand it, and even recent additions such as Clark's son made Clark's life more fleshed out and interesting.

In my opinion, Superman's biggest problems arguably come from his status as the guy who basically codified the superhero genre. A lot of writers look at that and see Clark less as a character and more as a status symbol, and they place importance on Superman beyond his worth as a character. They literally write things into the story about how Superman is literally the center of existence, the most important character ever, and you can't DO THAT in a shared universe without shortchanging everyone else. These people don't want to write about "Superman the character", they want to write about "Superman, the first superhero and most important character ever", probably because doing so makes them important by extension.

Because when you put that kind of importance on Superman beyond his intrinsic worth as a character, you run into problems. Superman is so important that people want to put their stamp on Superman and make their changes a part of the character's history. It becomes a power fantasy where they aren't just writing about a great character, they're writing about the most important character ever. And when you get into that headspace, you suddenly have a hard time challenging the character "fairly".

You can't have anyone, ally or enemy, be as powerful or more powerful than Superman! He's the most important guy ever! You can't have Superman need help from any of his fellow heroes! He's the most important guy ever! You can't have him actually threatened by his opponents! You get the picture.

It culminates in things like Jeph Loeb's Superman and Supergirl runs which existed largely to showcase how much better Superman was than the rest of the DCU. You get stories like Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis and Doomsday Clock where Superman is literally the center of the universe. You get lazy solutions to problems where Superman just has to "cut loose" or "try harder" in order to beat someone. Even when his opponents "cheat", he can either muscle through it or is handed a solution.

Basically, by putting Superman up on this pedestal, they make him boring. By focusing on Superman as the icon rather than the character, they make the stories about Superman's status and importance to the comic industry rather than writing a character who should be inspiring and interesting.
On this part I agree 100% and this is pretty much what I meant when I said that most writers struggle to create good Clark Kent stories. Most of the time Superman is perceived as the icon, not the person and this creates a crapton of complications. One of the things I really appreciated about Kingdom Come was how, in the end, this very idea of Superman as the fricking center of the universe was actually his own damnation in two ways. At first, Clark failed to understand that the rest of the world saw him as the icon, the savior of the universe, and later, when he started to act the part and utterly failed it was his human side that saved the world from himself.
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Jimmy Olsen

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

JIMMY OLSEN
Created By:
Jerry Siegel & Joe Schuster
First Appearance: Action Comics #6 (Nov. 1938)
Role: The Kid Sidekick
Voice Actor: David Kaufman
Finest Moment: Nothing, really (he was kind of a dork)
PL 2 (38), PL 3 (38) Saves
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 1 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 2 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Deception 4 (+6)
Expertise (Cameraman) 7 (+7)
Investigation 4 (+4)
Perception 7 (+7)
Persuasion 2 (+4)

Advantages:
None

Offense:
Unarmed +2 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +2 (DC 12), Parry +2 (DC 12), Toughness +1, Fortitude +2, Will +5

Complications:
Relationship (Superman)- Jimmy sees himself as Superman's pal.

Total: Abilities: 20 / Skills: 24--12 / Advantages: 0 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 6 (38)

-... huh. I've never done a Jimmy Olsen build before. Well I'll be damned. So Jimmy has a similar function in Superman books as Robin does in Bat-Books- that of the "Hero's Young Friend", which young fans are supposed to kind of imprint themselves upon. Because while Superman & Batman are too upstanding, immortal, and adult, the young audience can see themselves more as Jimmy or Robin, who are fallible and nearly always victimized by the mean criminals. I mean, you can't be Superman or Batman... but you could be their FRIEND. In Jimmy's case, he's an ANCIENT character, debuting only five issues after Superman did. Alas, comics has grown far too distant from the era in which Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen could have been a thing.

-In the Superman cartoon, Jimmy takes a somewhat similar role, being a spunky teenage photographer- here, he's kind of annoying and impulsive, and not really "Superman's Pal" so much as a colleague at the Daily Planet, since in the 1990s it'd be kind of weird for a man Clark's age to have a friend so young. And he doesn't do much of that "Jimmy temporarily gains super-powers" stuff, either- the only thing I really remember is him getting a "Honey Trap" thing from an agent of Metallo's, as a chick seduces him and gets him kidnapped.

About the Performer: David Kaufman is a career Voice Actor, doing everything from Marty McFly on the "Back to the Future" cartoon series to the Danny Phantom himself.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Batman Beyond! Inque! Blight! Superman!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Yay, an in-depth Ares essay! These are always good to read. Some insightful stuff here, too.

Personality wise, Superman is a paragon, a sincerely good person very much like Captain America. But where Steve's heroism is filtered through his patriotism and background as a soldier, Clark's heroism is filtered through his upbringing as a farmboy and a reporter. Clark's values come from the down home basic American values, concepts of hard work, of helping things grow, looking out for your neighbor, an "aw shucks" humility and helping out where you can. He's also got the curiosity and instincts of a reporter, being interested in people on a personal level, wanting to know and share their stories, to find out about injustices and either expose them or dealing with them.
This reminds me of more than one person telling me I should have been a reporter, because I'm naturally inquisitive (ie. nosy as fuck).
Villain wise, Superman's actually got a fairly solid rogue's gallery if anyone cares to use them properly. And like the best villains, many of them show darker aspects of Superman's character.
This is an underrated part of building up a good Rogue's Gallery- a lot of people (including myself, really) throw out a lot of "Well I wanted this guy, because he looks cool/is a good threat" stuff, but some of the bigger names have always countered the hero in some way. Mirror Image Villains are big for that exact reason (the hero with his darker impulses brought to the fore). Some villains only became true counterparts LATER, like Green Goblin.

Woodclaw is correct in that Luthor casts a wide shadow. Making a good Superman product in effect REQUIRES you to have not only a good Clark, but a good LUTHOR. AND a good Lois. Batman can get by on just the main hero, but Superman requires a lot of extra work on some all-important supporting people in a way that Bat-stories do not.
In my opinion, Superman's biggest problems arguably come from his status as the guy who basically codified the superhero genre. A lot of writers look at that and see Clark less as a character and more as a status symbol, and they place importance on Superman beyond his worth as a character. They literally write things into the story about how Superman is literally the center of existence, the most important character ever, and you can't DO THAT in a shared universe without shortchanging everyone else. These people don't want to write about "Superman the character", they want to write about "Superman, the first superhero and most important character ever", probably because doing so makes them important by extension.
Loeb-ism at its finest :). Wayyyyyyyyy too many writers want to Power-Geek him, write Superman as if he was waayyyyyyyyy more important and strong than anyone else, etc. His status as an icon kind of prevents some writers from using him properly. It's what led to the "Character who comes off the best in OTHER characters' books" thing, where Hitman, Blue Beetle and others going "HOLY SHIT, IT'S SUPERMAN!" and delving into how others view him led to some remarkable points, and stories.
Because when you put that kind of importance on Superman beyond his intrinsic worth as a character, you run into problems. Superman is so important that people want to put their stamp on Superman and make their changes a part of the character's history. It becomes a power fantasy where they aren't just writing about a great character, they're writing about the most important character ever. And when you get into that headspace, you suddenly have a hard time challenging the character "fairly".

You can't have anyone, ally or enemy, be as powerful or more powerful than Superman! He's the most important guy ever! You can't have Superman need help from any of his fellow heroes! He's the most important guy ever! You can't have him actually threatened by his opponents! You get the picture.
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Lois Lane

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

LOIS LANE
Created By:
Jerry Siegel & Joe Schuster
First Appearance: Action Comics #1 (June 1938)
Role: The Love Interest, Singled-Minded Career Woman, Miss Sarcasm
Voice Actor: Dana Delany
Finest Moment: THAT SKIRT.
PL 2 (48), PL 3 (48) Defenses
STRENGTH
0 STAMINA 1 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 2 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Deception 2 (+6)
Expertise (News Reporter) 11 (+14)
Insight 5 (+8)
Perception 4 (+7)
Stealth 4 (+6)
Vehicles 2 (+2)

Advantages:
Contacts, Ultimate Reporting Skill

Offense:
Unarmed +2 (+0 Damage, DC 15)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +2 (DC 12), Parry +2 (DC 12), Toughness +1, Fortitude +1, Will +5

Complications:
Relationship (Superman)- It's complicated. She likes the guy, but he's still very much a mystery to her at times. And then there's this CLARK guy...
Motivation (Career Woman)

Total: Abilities: 30 / Skills: 28--14 / Advantages: 2 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 2 (48)

-Lois is pretty much the archetypical Super-Hero Love Interest, and she's obviously the most iconic and famous. Of course, she's been given about a zillion different personalities over the years (flighty dame, damsel in distress, career-obsessed ball-busting harpy, etc.), but the Superman cartoon mostly stuck with the sarcastic side of her personality ("Have you ever been to Kansas?" "GOD, no"). The show did well enough with her, but danced around the romance so much that it ended up rather bland and boring, all things considered. And many of her focus episodes were a trifle dull- like the one with Titano the Super-Ape. But damn- THAT SKIRT!

About the Performer: I really only know of Dana Delany from her use as one of the "-any" rhymes used in the "Animaniacs" theme song- Yakko's wiggling eyebrows indicating that she was famous as a sexpot actress of the time. Bit parts were at the beginning of her career, but she became very popualr due to "China Beach" (never heard of it)- she gained two Emmys for the role. Some poor movie roles followed, in which she bared a lot of skin in that post-"Basic Instinct" era, but her career floundered and she moved on to voice acting... just in time to turn down the lead in "Sex & The City", owing to the negative effect the similar "Exit to Eden" had on her career. So, um, not a great career move. A brief resurgence came in the 2000s, as she was one of those "Old, but still attractive, actresses who can actually ACT". She did a lot of TV roles, and has maintained respect- much more than other actresses who did that much nudity in the '90s.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Batman Beyond! Inque! Blight! Superman!)

Post by Ares »

HalloweenJack wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:08 pm I mostly agree though I feel like Superman talking to those kids at the start of Justice League was the MOST Superman thing in the DCEU.
Oh I agree. I even like the explanation for the S shield. It's just the fact Supes couldn't answer "what do you like most about Earth". It's likely they meant it to be that he likes so many things he couldn't decide, but it came off almost like he didn't what, if anything, he liked about Earth. The answer should have been "the people" or "everything".
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Metallo

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

METALLO (John Corben)
Created By:
Robert Bernstein & Al Plastino
First Appearance: Action Comics #252 (May 1959)
Role: Mercenary, Killer Android
Voice Actor: Malcolm McDowell, Corey Burton
Finest Moment: Almost killed Superman & Supergirl on different occasions
PL 10 (176)
STRENGTH
10 STAMINA -- AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 2 (+10)
Deception 5 (+8)
Expertise (Mercenary) 10 (+13)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 8 (+11)
Perception 4 (+7)
Stealth 4 (+6)
Technology 4 (+7)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Chokehold, Daze (Intimidation), Equipment (Robo-Gear), Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Initiative, Improved Hold, Power Attack, Startle, Ranged Attack 6

Powers:
“More Man Than Machine” Immunity 30 (Fortitude Effects) [30]
Protection 10 (Extras: Impervious 7) [17]
Leaping 2 (30 feet) [2]
“Kryptonite Blasts” Blast 11 [22]

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Blasts +10 (+12 Ranged Damage, DC 27)
Initiative +6

Defenses:
Dodge +9 (DC 19), Parry +9 (DC 20), Toughness +12, Fortitude --, Will +5

Complications:
Weakness (Kryptonite Heart)- With his artificial heart removed, Metallo cannot function, and will eventually power down.
Responsibility (Lack of Senses)- With a metallic body, the former John Corben can no longer feel anything. He can no longer taste an apple, or kiss a woman. This drives him nuts at times.
Enemy (Superman, Lex Luthor)- Superman is his given enemy, and Luthor is responsible for giving him a lethal disease, and then his robotic condition.

Total: Abilities: 60 / Skills: 40--20 / Advantages: 16 / Powers: 71 / Defenses: 9 (176)

-Metallo is one of Superman’s goofier-looking villains, which is too bad, because the comics version can look cool, if a bit generic (he's always had a weak "Killer Robot" design, which can often be an excuse to go nuts- ULTRON certainly has no problems looking awesome). The whole “Half-Robot in Torn Clothes” look really doesn’t do anything for me, and I never liked any villain that was just “Regular Word + O” (Despero, Mesmero, Starro, etc.- the only example I like is Magneto). The whole “Kryptonite Heart” thing makes him rather hard to place against SUPERMAN of all people, since it kind of should be pretty-much-fatal every time Superman encounters it. So instead he just looks like a doofus.

-Metallo debuted as a generic mercenary in Superman: TAS, but a later episode revealed that he'd developed a deadly disease, and had his consciousness transfered to a robotic body that was nearly equal to Superman. Metallo, betrayed by Luthor (who was all "oh no, this new body will be SO COOL"), now shares hatred with both Supes and Lex. However, every single Metallo episode turns into the same thing- he tries to lure Superman into a trap, nearly kills him, but then Superman figures out a way to block/destroy/toss the Kryptonite Heart at his core, defeating Metallo for another day. Steel makes his debut during one of these, and a few involve some clever trickery, but it's basically as formulaic as hell. He appears only once in JLU, helping Silver Banshee out in Skartaris.

-The dude’s Power Level appears to be all over the place. In Superman’s own show, he was stated to be just as strong/powerful as the Man of Steel (according to some bio I read). But by “JLU”, he’s getting his arm blown off by Supergirl using Stargirl's Staff as a melee weapon, and then she tears his heart out with a knife, WHILE SHE’S DE-POWERED! She was limited to like 5 tons AT THE MOST, AND she was being subject to Kryptonite Poisoning! Very weird. I cut it even and made him a PL 10, allowing him to fight the weaker Superman of his own series on an even keel (what with the KRYPTONITE HEART and all that.

About the Performer: Malcolm McDowell is a highly-respected English actor, known for Shakespearean stuff but ESPECIALLY being famous for his appearance in "A Clockwork Orange", which has both snob-cred AND enduring mainstream popularity- a true rare occurrence. He eventually got known for playing villains, as his pretty boy looks faded and he became more and more involved with sci-fi schlock. He killed off Captain Kirk via a sledding accident in "Star Trek Generations", and even performed in "Wing Commander IV" during the dying days of FMV in video games. He was also "A British Person" in "South Park".
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Batman Beyond! Inque! Blight! Superman!)

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Hmm, would Kryptonite Heart warrant an Environment power that just generates Kryptonite radiation over a specific area?
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Batman Beyond! Inque! Blight! Superman!)

Post by Jabroniville »

squirrelly-sama wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:45 am Hmm, would Kryptonite Heart warrant an Environment power that just generates Kryptonite radiation over a specific area?
I dunno- if it affected more than just Kryptonians, then maybe. It CAN make people progressively sicker with constant exposure (as in Lex Luthor's case- he got terminal cancer), but that's pretty slow-working. It's more of just a descriptor and a Complication for Superman and Supergirl (who's close enough to Kryptonian physiologically).
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Batman Beyond! Inque! Blight! Superman!)

Post by catsi563 »

Ares wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:40 am
HalloweenJack wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:08 pm I mostly agree though I feel like Superman talking to those kids at the start of Justice League was the MOST Superman thing in the DCEU.
Oh I agree. I even like the explanation for the S shield. It's just the fact Supes couldn't answer "what do you like most about Earth". It's likely they meant it to be that he likes so many things he couldn't decide, but it came off almost like he didn't what, if anything, he liked about Earth. The answer should have been "the people" or "everything".
See I disagree with that, they cut it off before he could give an answer and the implication of the scene was that he was going to answer before the video is cut off. Theres no sense he was not going to answer the question.
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Re: Lois Lane

Post by Woodclaw »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:48 pm -Lois is pretty much the archetypical Super-Hero Love Interest, and she's obviously the most iconic and famous. Of course, she's been given about a zillion different personalities over the years (flighty dame, damsel in distress, career-obsessed ball-busting harpy, etc.), but the Superman cartoon mostly stuck with the sarcastic side of her personality ("Have you ever been to Kansas?" "GOD, no"). The show did well enough with her, but danced around the romance so much that it ended up rather bland and boring, all things considered. And many of her focus episodes were a trifle dull- like the one with Titano the Super-Ape. But damn- THAT SKIRT!
In my eyes, one of the great sins of the DCAU Superman was how the writers kept dodging the romantic subplot of Lois and Clark and the subsequent reveal. I understand that it wasn't a major point, but it was kind of a disservice to the story. I mean we are talking about the superhero couple trope codifiers, everyone was expecting them to be together by the end of the show.
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Re: Lois Lane

Post by Jabroniville »

Woodclaw wrote: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:22 am
Jabroniville wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:48 pm -Lois is pretty much the archetypical Super-Hero Love Interest, and she's obviously the most iconic and famous. Of course, she's been given about a zillion different personalities over the years (flighty dame, damsel in distress, career-obsessed ball-busting harpy, etc.), but the Superman cartoon mostly stuck with the sarcastic side of her personality ("Have you ever been to Kansas?" "GOD, no"). The show did well enough with her, but danced around the romance so much that it ended up rather bland and boring, all things considered. And many of her focus episodes were a trifle dull- like the one with Titano the Super-Ape. But damn- THAT SKIRT!
In my eyes, one of the great sins of the DCAU Superman was how the writers kept dodging the romantic subplot of Lois and Clark and the subsequent reveal. I understand that it wasn't a major point, but it was kind of a disservice to the story. I mean we are talking about the superhero couple trope codifiers, everyone was expecting them to be together by the end of the show.
It's honestly very weird- it's SO underwritten that it's almost non-existent. The most you get is that Clark seems a bit jealous and perturbed that Lois jumps on Bruce Wayne the second he arrives in Metropolis (I remember watching this episode with my sisters, and one of them IMMEDIATELY goes "SLUT..." at that very moment :)), and bits where Lana and others kind of accept that Lois is his new love interest. But like... do they even date? Kiss? Does ANYTHING happen? I barely remember anything at all.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Ra's al-Ghul! Batman Beyond! Inque! Blight!)

Post by Ken »

Ares wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:35 pmI don't actually consider Darkseid a Superman foe, as Darkseid is suppose to be much bigger than that. Darkseid is a foe for the entire DCU. He's someone the Justice League takes on, not an individual hero, even Superman. It's why I actually think Mongul has a purpose, since he can pose a major threat as a galactic despot with his own WarWorld who is still mostly "just" a Superman threat. Mongul is a big deal, but even he knows to get out of the way when Darkseid shows up.
Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen was the book that connected Jack Kirby's "Fourth World" titles to the larger DC universe, which I think is a lot of where the "Darkseid is a Superman villain" idea comes from.

Jim Starlin created Thanos to be Marvel's Darkseid. He then created Mongul to be DC's Thanos. A copy of a copy of ...
Ares wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:35 pmSuperman's supporting cast was largely limited to Ma and Pa Kent, Lois, Jimmy and Perry White for the longest time, but a lot had been done in the 90s to expand it, and even recent additions such as Clark's son made Clark's life more fleshed out and interesting.
For 40+ years, Ma and Pa Kent weren't a part of Superman's supporting cast, they were a part of Superboy's supporting cast, which also included Lana Lang, Pete Ross, Police Chief Parker, and others. It was in the 1970s that DC really started advancing Superman's supporting cast: Morgan Edge, Steve Lombard, Josh Coyne, as well as using the adult Lana Lang on a regular basis and not just as an occasional foil in Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane. The adult Pete Ross showed up occasionally. And then there were the semi-regulars who were lost post-Crisis: Dr. Jenet Klyburn of S.T.A.R.* Labs, Clark's neighbors April and May Marigold, etc. Adding Ron Troupe and Cat Grant, as well as allowing Jonathan and Martha to live didn't really expand Superman's supporting cast, just replace some voids.
Ares wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:35 pmSuperman, in essence, is the best of American values, but filtered through the lens of the common man rather than through the soldier, the way it is with Captain America.
This is one of the problems many modern writers have with him, too. Smallville is in "flyover country"; comics are produced on the coasts. I think a lot of writer's struggle with the notion that the best of American values can be seen in a common man from middle America.
* Science and Technology Advanced Research -- Editor
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
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