What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Hawk
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Hawk »

Ares wrote: Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:49 am
Hawk wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:54 pm
Ares wrote: Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:33 pm

Nope.
Thanks.
Sorry, I know that was months late and a short reply, but I kind of lost track of that question during a lot of stuff.

I am a big fan of Will Payton myself, I'm trying to complete my collection of Roger Stern's run of the character, I hated that he was killed off and I hated that he was retconned into being Prince Gavyn. So the idea of him returning would normally get me very excited, except that it feels like Snyder just read Will's wiki and is using him as a Mar-Vel-type cosmic guy who has Multiversal Awareness. Because now instead of being a human-shped star with decent and diverse physical abilities and immense energy potential, he's literally powered by the multiverse and is basically a plot MacGuffin.

It's just amazing how Marvel and DC have these events going on that I should care about, but I can't bring myself to get invested in them. A story about the Nine Realms going to war with Marvel Earth should be right up my alley. Something that brings Will back and redefines the cosmic scene should have me incredibly interested. Instead, they just feel like a collection of mistakes and that both companies have no idea what they're doing.

Ironically, at Comic Con, Dan DiDio apparently revealed that in many cases, the reprint collection of DC stories from the 70s, 80s and 90s that they release in supermarkets sell better than their current original stories they create. And instead of taking a step back and going "Maybe we're doing something wrong that the stories of those decades weren't", he said that it's important to "move forward and continue to find new directions to push the characters".

I feel like Dan DiDio is in a boat, watching DC Comics drown off the side of said boat, and is constantly throwing DC boat anchors instead of life preservers.
No problem. I agree with you all the points you made. The current comic scene just doesn't interest me anymore. I try to collect the things that I had before, as time and finances permit.( I lost all of my comics and gaming supplements because of flooding). Would I enjoy if they told stories that interest me, sure, but all the wokeness is not something that I care about.
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Ares
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

I flipped through the current Justice League Dark series to give a modern DCU book a try, starting at around issue 5 and seeing where it would go. As of issue 13, the latest issue, I found myself constantly thinking "This has to get better at some point, right?" And it never really did.

I thought some of the general concepts that James Tynion was going for were interesting, such as the difference between Order-based magic and Chaos-based magic. Order Magi used spells, books and similar things to make working magic easier on existence, to use patterns and rituals in way that doesn't harm the user or the universe around them. Chaos magic is the user essentially just forcing their whims on the universe, and making sure something other than themselves bear the cost of it. I'm not sure it'd be my preferred way of handling magic in the DCU, but it fits with aspects of the mythos and is flexible enough to work with a larger universe. He also clearly wanted to "Catman/Deadpool/Shade" several characters, such as the Man-Bat of all people, by making him this kind of quirky professor in a kind of halfway point between his primal bat form and his scientist form. There's also a cool ideal that all of the shenanigans leading up to the next big DC event have weakened the multiversal barrier and these magical Lovecraftian Horrors have started popping up everywhere. Nightmaster's funeral scene was honestly well done.

But the book honestly just feels like a re-tread of other series where some magical demi-god goes all "Magic is bad and must be destroyed", like the Day of Vengeance series leading up to Infinite Crisis, only instead of the Spectre, this time it's Dr. Fate. And I'm sick of Dr. Fate being turned into a bad guy for stuff like this. Dr. Fate has had one of the best general looks for a mystic hero ever, with only his lack of a personality really holding him back, but for some reason instead of pushing him as DC's big magical expert, they keep making him a villain.

It's also kind of silly seeing Wonder Woman of all people being involved in a magic heavy book like this. They even make a point of Batman telling her that she's used to mythology, not magic, and that it could have a darkening effect on her. Having her on a team with Detective Chimp and Swamp Thing does little to dispell the silliness.

Seeing the Blue Devil as this kind of barbarian warlord just feels like someone is trying too hard. A lot of this series comes off as "trying too hard", frankly. Dr. Fate being evil, Zatanna not wearing either of her more classic outfits, Swamp Thing's general appearance, Zatarra being revealed as having been involved in some shady stuff, it just comes off as some deciding "I'll make these guys cool!" and going about it the wrong way. Instead of the kind of childlike enthusiasm that just focuses on a character's central concept and deciding to make it awesome, they're going the edgy teenager route.

The series also is trying to define exactly what magic is, which is always a problem unless the company is willing to commit to every other writer using the same rules. Here magic is basically described as belief given power, that it only works because you believe it to work, etc. Except that really doesn't work for things like ghosts, vampires, etc. Unless you've got a really good explanation, magic is just to "big" a concept to really define, especially in a comic universe. Like I said, unless you've got the backing of the company and every other writer is willing to use it, coming up with rules for magic is kind of fruitless and you're almost better off just describing general concepts.

And it's a minor pet peeve, but it seems really stupid that Geoff Johns is pushing his version of the Marvel Family over in Shazam as being these pseudo-spellcasters going off on allegedly fun adventures in different worlds of magic, and Billy isn't involved in any of this. I mean, I hate the current version of Shazam, but if you're going to push him as a Champion of Magic, then you need to have him involved in magic-centric stuff.

It also doesn't help that this is clearly building towards DC's next big crisis. I remember as far back as 2005 DC actually had a handle on this whole "branding" concept where books would be allowed to do their own thing, but would have tie-in-issues specifically to lead up to events, or better yet, use Annual issues to tie into events so as to not break up the narrative of the comic. Modern DC feels like you need to read every book to know what's going on, and that's ironically a sure fire way to make people not buy anything because they don't want to invest that kind of cash and don't want to only get half a story.

The whole Perpetua / Monitor / Anti-Monitor World Forger retcon again feels like someone deciding to just flip the script on the DCU again. This is something like the third or fourth different origin they've given the Anti-Monitor at this point. For all the problems the original Crisis caused, it's amazing how much more stable the DCU as a whole felt from 1985 to 2005, and how much of a mess it's become since 2011 to today.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Thorpocalypse
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Thorpocalypse »

I had stopped reading comics for a while, mainly for financial reasons but I picked up House of X, just to see what Jonathan Hickman was going to do with the X-Verse.

Holy crap.

The man is the KING of Big Ideas. :shock:

It's amazing. Whether you love it or hate it, you'll certainly not be able to ignore it if you read it. The second issue is a total game changer for the X-Verse and there's hardly any action in it but I couldn't put it down. He's completely redefining X books and I am in for it.

And so far, he hasn't created 100 new characters just to let their stories drop later so he's off to a better start than his Avengers run. ;)
Me fail English? That's unpossible. - Ralph Wiggum
Jabroniville
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Jabroniville »

damn, now you've got my interest, lol. I'm almost afraid of what he's going to try, given the disaster his Avengers run turned out to be :).
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KorokoMystia
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by KorokoMystia »

So I've heard that in House of X, a certain long-standing supporting X-character has had a sudden, huge retcon out of nowhere(?)
Thorpocalypse
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Thorpocalypse »

KorokoMystia wrote: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:33 pm So I've heard that in House of X, a certain long-standing supporting X-character has had a sudden, huge retcon out of nowhere(?)
Oh yeah. It really works for the plot but throws some old canon out but I like it. Someone who was never known as a mutant is and maybe one of the most important. It’s certainly a great twist.

The whole thing could easily fall apart,Jab, which is why I am so intrigued. But that’s Hickman.
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HalloweenJack
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by HalloweenJack »

I dunno if it's been mentioned yet or not, but Ares will be pleased.


Spoilers










Seems like the Thing finally got a KO win over the Hulk. It messed him up but he did it.
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Ares
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

HalloweenJack wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:43 pm I dunno if it's been mentioned yet or not, but Ares will be pleased.


Spoilers










Seems like the Thing finally got a KO win over the Hulk. It messed him up but he did it.
Woohoo! Any idea what issue this happened in? I need to check this out.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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HalloweenJack
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by HalloweenJack »

Ares wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:02 pm
HalloweenJack wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:43 pm I dunno if it's been mentioned yet or not, but Ares will be pleased.


Spoilers










Seems like the Thing finally got a KO win over the Hulk. It messed him up but he did it.
Woohoo! Any idea what issue this happened in? I need to check this out.

Slott's Fantastic Four #13.

I'd read #12 too. It's a 2 parter.
RUSCHE
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by RUSCHE »

HalloweenJack wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:34 pm
Ares wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:02 pm
HalloweenJack wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:43 pm I dunno if it's been mentioned yet or not, but Ares will be pleased.


Spoilers










Seems like the Thing finally got a KO win over the Hulk. It messed him up but he did it.
Woohoo! Any idea what issue this happened in? I need to check this out.

Slott's Fantastic Four #13.

I'd read #12 too. It's a 2 parter.
You beat me to the punch, I was going to clue Ares in as well.
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Ares
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

I checked it out, and those two issues along with the wedding of Ben and Alicia have me seriously considering picking up this book regularly. At the very least, Slott "gets" Ben and Alicia.

Spoilers
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What's funny is that it's fairly close to what I said I'd do over in the "Petty Thing You'd Do" thread. Ben is in a situation where he cannot call for help, but with the added caveat that he has only a limited time to stop the Hulk. So instead of beating the Hulk through a combination of strength and skill to prove the strength gap isn't as huge as people think, Ben has to out-muscle the Hulk and takes him out with this FALCON PUNCH to Bruce's face that badly damages his arm.

If anything it sets a precedent that Ben can beat the Hulk if he needs to. I wouldn't mind this being a new status quo.

Slott seems to be someone who wants to push Ben as being below the Hulk, but not so far below that he can't beat old Jade Jaws. During his previous run on the Thing's solo book, Ben wound up fighting an Arcade-built robot of the Hulk that Arcade claimed was nearly as strong as the actual Hulk. And sure enough, Ben was able to destroy it too.

I also liked other aspects of the book, like the vibranium wedding ring Ben wears so that he can punch folks without the ring breaking. The scene on the beach where Alicia gets on her knee and offers Ben a human-sized ring, basically proposing to him was adorable. Plus this moment made me laugh:

Alicia: "Valerie, do you mind watering my plants?"

Valeria: "Of course, Aunt Alicia."

Alicia: "And I mean water them yourself, not build a machine to do it."

Valeria: "Uhhhh..."

Alicia: "Franklin, please water my plants."

Franklin: "On it."
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
RUSCHE
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by RUSCHE »

Ares wrote: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:55 pm I checked it out, and those two issues along with the wedding of Ben and Alicia have me seriously considering picking up this book regularly. At the very least, Slott "gets" Ben and Alicia.

Spoilers
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

What's funny is that it's fairly close to what I said I'd do over in the "Petty Thing You'd Do" thread. Ben is in a situation where he cannot call for help, but with the added caveat that he has only a limited time to stop the Hulk. So instead of beating the Hulk through a combination of strength and skill to prove the strength gap isn't as huge as people think, Ben has to out-muscle the Hulk and takes him out with this FALCON PUNCH to Bruce's face that badly damages his arm.

If anything it sets a precedent that Ben can beat the Hulk if he needs to. I wouldn't mind this being a new status quo.

Slott seems to be someone who wants to push Ben as being below the Hulk, but not so far below that he can't beat old Jade Jaws. During his previous run on the Thing's solo book, Ben wound up fighting an Arcade-built robot of the Hulk that Arcade claimed was nearly as strong as the actual Hulk. And sure enough, Ben was able to destroy it too.

I also liked other aspects of the book, like the vibranium wedding ring Ben wears so that he can punch folks without the ring breaking. The scene on the beach where Alicia gets on her knee and offers Ben a human-sized ring, basically proposing to him was adorable. Plus this moment made me laugh:

Alicia: "Valerie, do you mind watering my plants?"

Valeria: "Of course, Aunt Alicia."

Alicia: "And I mean water them yourself, not build a machine to do it."

Valeria: "Uhhhh..."

Alicia: "Franklin, please water my plants."

Franklin: "On it."
I enjoyed it as well. Ben Grimm deserves some respect and time to shine. The family banter and how the FF ARE different form the Avengers and other teams. Ot did not diminish one character to build the other. It showed Ben as fans have known him for years, he will never quit and will always keep coming.
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HalloweenJack
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by HalloweenJack »

yeah Slott's FF is something I've been enjoying alot lately.

The first few issues had the team recalling a previously unknown adventure years ago that required.....well.....the member of the FF who was the best singer to sing.

"Now who is that?"

Sue: I'm on it.

Reed: Johnny.

Ben: Johnny.

Johnny: Me.

Sue: Wait...what?

Franklin: Sorry mommy but it's Uncle Johnny.
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Jack of Spades
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Jack of Spades »

Slott is nailing the FF. Every issue since he took over has brought a grin to my face.
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HalloweenJack
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by HalloweenJack »

Ares wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2019 6:02 am I flipped through the current Justice League Dark series to give a modern DCU book a try, starting at around issue 5 and seeing where it would go. As of issue 13, the latest issue, I found myself constantly thinking "This has to get better at some point, right?" And it never really did.

I thought some of the general concepts that James Tynion was going for were interesting, such as the difference between Order-based magic and Chaos-based magic. Order Magi used spells, books and similar things to make working magic easier on existence, to use patterns and rituals in way that doesn't harm the user or the universe around them. Chaos magic is the user essentially just forcing their whims on the universe, and making sure something other than themselves bear the cost of it. I'm not sure it'd be my preferred way of handling magic in the DCU, but it fits with aspects of the mythos and is flexible enough to work with a larger universe. He also clearly wanted to "Catman/Deadpool/Shade" several characters, such as the Man-Bat of all people, by making him this kind of quirky professor in a kind of halfway point between his primal bat form and his scientist form. There's also a cool ideal that all of the shenanigans leading up to the next big DC event have weakened the multiversal barrier and these magical Lovecraftian Horrors have started popping up everywhere. Nightmaster's funeral scene was honestly well done.

But the book honestly just feels like a re-tread of other series where some magical demi-god goes all "Magic is bad and must be destroyed", like the Day of Vengeance series leading up to Infinite Crisis, only instead of the Spectre, this time it's Dr. Fate. And I'm sick of Dr. Fate being turned into a bad guy for stuff like this. Dr. Fate has had one of the best general looks for a mystic hero ever, with only his lack of a personality really holding him back, but for some reason instead of pushing him as DC's big magical expert, they keep making him a villain.

It's also kind of silly seeing Wonder Woman of all people being involved in a magic heavy book like this. They even make a point of Batman telling her that she's used to mythology, not magic, and that it could have a darkening effect on her. Having her on a team with Detective Chimp and Swamp Thing does little to dispell the silliness.

Seeing the Blue Devil as this kind of barbarian warlord just feels like someone is trying too hard. A lot of this series comes off as "trying too hard", frankly. Dr. Fate being evil, Zatanna not wearing either of her more classic outfits, Swamp Thing's general appearance, Zatarra being revealed as having been involved in some shady stuff, it just comes off as some deciding "I'll make these guys cool!" and going about it the wrong way. Instead of the kind of childlike enthusiasm that just focuses on a character's central concept and deciding to make it awesome, they're going the edgy teenager route.

The series also is trying to define exactly what magic is, which is always a problem unless the company is willing to commit to every other writer using the same rules. Here magic is basically described as belief given power, that it only works because you believe it to work, etc. Except that really doesn't work for things like ghosts, vampires, etc. Unless you've got a really good explanation, magic is just to "big" a concept to really define, especially in a comic universe. Like I said, unless you've got the backing of the company and every other writer is willing to use it, coming up with rules for magic is kind of fruitless and you're almost better off just describing general concepts.

And it's a minor pet peeve, but it seems really stupid that Geoff Johns is pushing his version of the Marvel Family over in Shazam as being these pseudo-spellcasters going off on allegedly fun adventures in different worlds of magic, and Billy isn't involved in any of this. I mean, I hate the current version of Shazam, but if you're going to push him as a Champion of Magic, then you need to have him involved in magic-centric stuff.

It also doesn't help that this is clearly building towards DC's next big crisis. I remember as far back as 2005 DC actually had a handle on this whole "branding" concept where books would be allowed to do their own thing, but would have tie-in-issues specifically to lead up to events, or better yet, use Annual issues to tie into events so as to not break up the narrative of the comic. Modern DC feels like you need to read every book to know what's going on, and that's ironically a sure fire way to make people not buy anything because they don't want to invest that kind of cash and don't want to only get half a story.

The whole Perpetua / Monitor / Anti-Monitor World Forger retcon again feels like someone deciding to just flip the script on the DCU again. This is something like the third or fourth different origin they've given the Anti-Monitor at this point. For all the problems the original Crisis caused, it's amazing how much more stable the DCU as a whole felt from 1985 to 2005, and how much of a mess it's become since 2011 to today.

also....Perpetua.....I'm not alone in hating that name am I?
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