Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Techno! Songbird! MACH-1!)

Post by Ares »

Oddly enough, I liked the Beetle as well, largely thanks to my introduction to him on Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends. His armor had a unique but sleek look to it, and he was one of the few Power Armor guys who was more "mid-tier" with his own gimmick, rather than just another Iron Man knock off. And the first appearance of the new armor actually had Spidey on the ropes, though that could easily be a sign of New Villain Stink

The Beetle shows basically what would happen to a genius inventor who tried to build a suit of power armor without Tony Stark's resources: to make it a compact suit of armor that has a lot of versatility, you wind up with something more appropriate to fight Spider-Man than Iron Man. Still, the Beetle does actually have a solid win over Captain America from all the way back in Avengers #28.

Abe was pretty much my favorite character in the original run of the Thunderbolts, as he was the guy who had the most character growth. He started out as an eager villain willing to do the job, and Kurt Busiek remembered that his original motivation had been to gain respect. Once he got respect as a hero, he found he actually liked being good, and found himself doing the right thing more frequently without any prompting. Abe was basically someone who felt underappreciated his whole life, and was forcing himself to act on his worst instincts to get what he wanted.

I'd definitely bring Mach-1 back (and go back to Mach-1 and stop with the constantly escalating numbers thing), pair him and Songbird back together, and have them actually be happy as reformed villains. I think I'd actually play up how there's basically three factions of people regarding them: the folks that are happy they've reformed, the folks that hate them for reforming, and the folks that question if they've reformed.

The first group would actually include both heroes and villains. I can actually see Spider-Man happy the Beetle reformed, and several Avengers members like the Wasp happy Songbird finally stopped the whole Screaming Mimi thing. Meanwhile I can also see some of their former villainous associates being happy for the couple, glad they got out of the game and are happy together.

The second group would be entirely made up of villains, possibly include some surviving Grapplers, former associates of the Beetle, and of course people like Baron Zemo. These are the villains that consider the pair sellouts and would love to hurt them if given the chance.

The final group would again be made up of heroes and villains. The heroes that don't trust Abe and Melissa because of their long career as villains, the fact that they tried to take over the world, and their constant association with guys like Baron Zemo and Norman Osborn. The villains meanwhile think Abe and Melissa are still playing the original con game from the Thunderbolts, and might want in on the action.

It makes MACH-1 and Songbird's relationships with other heroes interesting and tense, and they'd often be wary of heroes they hadn't met because they never know how they'll respond.

I do think they need to just settle on MACH-1's look and stick with it. Bagley's original design is a bit busy for me, and if you're going with the idea of a "fighter jet as a suit of armor" then I think you need to emphasize something sleek, smooth and fast looking. I'd also make a big deal about how he's actually the fastest and most maneuverable power armored hero in Marvel, and can fly circles around most heroes. His weapon systems would be on par with Iron Man, similar sensor systems, not as much raw versatility and only about half as strong/durable, but Abe is more of a 'speedster' power armor guy than a powerhouse one. It'd give him his own unique niche in the Marvel Universe.

I honestly think the idea of a primary Avengers team and a West Coast branch is something Marvel should bring back. You have the main team be more of a classic line up with a few new faces, while the West Coast team can have a couple of classic members, but be more about new faces and lesser known Avengers getting the chance to shine. I'd love to see Abe and Songbird on an Avengers squad, or being part of something like that expanded Heroes for Hire team Iron Fist had with Luke Cage, She-Hulk, Black Knight and Ant-Man.

I'd also want to see someone use the original Beetle armor (well, the second generation version of the original Beetle armor, not the one with the long fingers), just because I like the look. Maybe Abe gives that armor to some new hero who wants to do more Street Level stuff.
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Re: MACH-1/The Beetle

Post by Ian Turner »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:02 pm -But truth be told, Jenkins has had a great storyline. The Beetle wasn't any good asides from being a quality Jobber, but as the MACH-series, he's been excellent- it's one of those Face Turns that actually makes SENSE- he was faking being a hero, but organically grew to LIKE it, eventually becoming one of the most moral of his team (the others who enjoyed being heroes still had more of a dark side to them, in a realistic move).
I like that Abe, like Erik Josten (even more so!), was never really a super-committed villain, and turns into a not-terribly-committed hero. He's no Captain America, by nature, but he certainly wasn't a Red Skull, either. (At least he's more committed to his face turn than Erik!) It's neat to see some range in 'heroism' as well as villainy, with not every hero having Ben Grimm levels of stick-to-it-iveness, or having progressed as far on their heroes journey as Peter Parker or Matt Murdock. Abe feels like he's still one great story away from his moment of clarity.

Oh, and totally agree with a lot of what Ares is saying too. Constantly upping the numbers of his 'Mach' name is silly, because we all know he can't fly *literally* at Mach 5, and it's foolish to change the number every time you add a flashlight or upgrade the GPS or whatever. (At best, some sort of 'Mach 1.3' or whatever might better suit the sort of upgrades, than upping whole 'Machs.') And I like that the armor has typically been different than an Iron Man suit. He often had blasters on his wings, or coming from his wrists, instead of 'palm-repulsers' or a 'uni-beam' from his chest. He definitely had less strength enhancement, being more of a flying blaster than a flying tank. And that's cool. Every armored hero being the same chassis of flying tank/blaster is kind of dull, and even simple visual tweaks like the blasts coming from shoulder-mounted guns (like War Machine), or the flight coming from big airplane-looking-wings (like Mach X), are cool.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Techno! Songbird! MACH-1!)

Post by M4C8 »

Abe's a decent character when given half a chance and I've always liked his Mach armour's (though I can't decide which one I prefer the look of, maybe the 4th or 5th) and yeah he and Melissa should be together. Again it shows what a great book the original T-bolts was that I'd still like to see Abe, Mel, Erik and even Hallie be a more prominent part of the hero community.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Techno! Songbird! MACH-1!)

Post by Ares »

M4C8 wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:15 am Abe's a decent character when given half a chance and I've always liked his Mach armour's (though I can't decide which one I prefer the look of, maybe the 4th or 5th) and yeah he and Melissa should be together. Again it shows what a great book the original T-bolts was that I'd still like to see Abe, Mel, Erik and even Hallie be a more prominent part of the hero community.
Jolt especially should have been more of a thing. And classic Jolt with the Spider-Man-level speed and agility, low-level superhuman strength and enhanced energy punches, as well as potentially some energy absorbing abilities. To me, she was Kamala Khan before Kamala Khan, which might actually be part of why Khan annoys me. Jolt was a female Asian hero who loved superheroes, got her screen time as part of an ongoing series, was fun, friendly and idealistic, did not have the typical superhero build (she was definitely more slim than curvy) and actually worked to redeem her allies. Basically, Jolt was Kamala Khan done better and more organically. Which is a shame because she rarely gets used. Like Jab said, people are more interested in "breaking new ground by creating the next big minority hero" than using any of the existing ones. It's also sad that "Super Agility" heroes like Jolt and Spider-Man use to be fairly rare before there was suddenly a half-dozen Spider-People moving around.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Techno! Songbird! MACH-1!)

Post by catsi563 »

think id really love to see a mini series with Abe and Melissa trying their best at the relationship and Super heroing they have some hiccups and rough spots but are making the best go of it they can as a couple

then they run into Hawkeye and Mockingbird who are doing the same thing and watch the four of them bond and commiserate with each other as they have some awkward moments some humor and some character and relationship growth all while fighting Crossfire whose put together a new Sinister Six including the new Beatle and a few others.
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Atlas (Erik Josten)

Post by Jabroniville »

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ATLAS (Erik Josten, aka Power Man I, Goliath IV, Smuggler I)
Created By:
Stan Lee & Jack Kirby
First Appearance: The Avengers #21 (Oct. 1965)
Role: Growing Guy, Powerhouse, Angry Guy, Shaky Redemption Guy
Group Affiliations: The Masters of Evil, The Thunderbolts, The Lethal Legion, The Defenders
PL 11 (140)
STRENGTH
9/14 STAMINA 9/13 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 9 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+10)
Deception 5 (+6, +8 Attractive)
Expertise (Criminal) 5 (+5)
Expertise (Soldier) 5 (+5)
Investigation 3 (+4)
Intimidation 7 (+9, +15 Size)
Perception 2 (+3)
Persuasion 2 (+3, +5 Attractive)

Advantages:
Attractive, Fast Grab, Great Endurance, Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Interpose, Power Attack, Takedown 2, Ranged Attack 7, Withstand Damage (Trade Defenses For Toughness)

Powers:
"Large Size- Over 100 Feet Tall" All Powers Linked
"Enhanced Stats"
Enhanced Strength 5 [10]
Enhanced Stamina 4 [8]
Protection 1 [1]
Speed 4 (16 mph) [4]
"Long Arms" Elongation 3 (60 feet) [3]
Impervious Toughness 7 [7]
Enhanced Skills 6: Intimidation 6 [3]
Features 6: Increased Mass 6 [6]

Diminished Close Combat 3 [-6]
Diminished Skills 16: Stealth 16 [-8]
Diminished Dodge 6 [-6]
Diminished Parry 5 [-5]

"Giant-Sized Fists & Feet" Linked to Strength-Damage
Damage 11 (Extras: Area- 15ft. Burst +1/2) (Quirks: Must be at Largest Sizes -2) [15]
"Hitting Power" Strength-Damage +1 [1]

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Largest Size +7 (+15 Damage, DC 30)
Giant Fists +11 Area (+11 Damage, DC 27)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
"Normal Size" Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +9 (DC 18), Toughness +9, Fortitude +11, Will +6
"16 ft. Size" Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +7 (DC 17), Toughness +11, Fortitude +13, Will +6
"60 ft. Size" Dodge +2 (DC 12), Parry +4 (DC 14), Toughness +14 (+4 Impervious), Fortitude +15, Will +6

Complications:
Motivation (Redemption)- Josten strives to reform, but it isn't always easy. He's a very angry young man, and his tremendous power makes him dangerous.
Reputation (Just a Grunt)- Erik is the strongest member of teams he's on, but the least-assertive. He runs from making decisions, dislikes being a leader, and easily-follows others. Despite betraying Baron Zemo, he still saved his life.
Relationship (Dallas Riordan)- Josten loves the mayor's aide dearly, but various situations (her being crippled, then gaining powers), often come up.
Relationship (Jolt)- Erik views Jolt as a little sister... effectively replacing the ten-year old sister he had, who was killed by a car after following Erik and his buddies out of the house one night. She serves as the catalyst that set off his redemption.

Total: Abilities: 62 / Skills: 30--15 / Advantages: 17 / Powers: 33 / Defenses: 13 (140)

Erik Josten- Jobber To The Stars:
-Always liked the Growth power-set, so most of the characters who have it are favourites of mine- Handsome Smasher... I mean Atom Smasher, Giganta, Colossal Boy, etc. Not Pym & Bill Foster though- they suck and are lame. But Atlas here is cool. A pretty generic dime-a-dozen villain, he got his start as the first Power Man, convinced by the Enchantress into undergoing the "Wonder Man" process, but less effective (Marvel fans and writers LOVED Simon Williams so much that they kept going back to him... he got a retroactive brother in The Grim Reaper, Vision got his mind, this guy came about, etc.), and from there he became one of those C & D-league recurring threats in the "between the good issues" fights of heroes like Spider-Man, The Thing, etc. He allied with the Enchantress in his first appearance only (he's weaker than Wonder Man because she wasn't aware the ionic-ray process had to be keyed to a specific person), but later teamed with the Swordsman, got manipulated by the Red Skull into fighting Captain America, worked for the Mandarin and was a member of the first Lethal Legion. Talk about a generic guy.

-Josten briefly fought Luke Cage when he first started going by "Power Man"- Josten was naturally PO'd and challenged him to a fight over who would get the rights to the name, and Cage won. He appears on Count Nefaria's Lethal Legion under the promise that Nefaria would greatly increase his powers, but the villain later steals them, leaving Josten heavily depowered. 1980 sees him debut as "The Smuggler" with a new costume, but is defeated by Spider-Man, who then assists him against the Maggia (Nefaria's organization). Finally, Josten gains new powers, as Dr. Karl Malus gives him Hank Pym's growth serum, turning him into the fourth man to take the name "Goliath" (after Pym, Clint Barton & Bill Foster all used it). And oddly, this change, made in the mid-1980s, COMPLETELY STUCK, forever altering the character!

-As Goliath IV, Josten fights Iron Man (James Rhodes) and the West Coast Avengers, then Cosmic Spider-Man. He teams with the Grim Reaper, Man-Ape, Nekra & Ultron against the West Coasters again, but still jobs. He appears on the Masters of Evil for the first time in Under Siege, assaulting Avengers Mansion- here, he gets a fairly important part in the story, as he held off THOR, GOD OF THUNDER for half an issue. His position on the team seems largely to handle the powerhouses like that, as he was also one of the guys who beat Hercules into a coma. He then goes back to being a Journeyman Villain, losing to Spidey, the Avengers & Freedom Force, then Wonder Man in his solo book. He then jobs to the other size-changing heroes, like Bill "Giant-Man II" Foster, Scott "Ant-Man" Lang & Clint "Goliath II" Barton. He is lost in space, but is rescued by Baron Zemo, leading to...

Atlas Shrugged:
-A grateful Josten is happily recruited into Zemo's new scheme- the Thunderbolts. Getting plastic surgery to appear more handsome, he becomes "Atlas". And from there he joined the rest of them in actually growing to love super-heroics- he saw Jolt as similar to the teen sister he lost years ago, and dated Dallas Riordan, the mayor of New York's assistant. This was the "relationship with a civilian" part of the book (the rest of the team largely inter-dated). He is briefly killed/dispersed by the Scourge of the Underworld, appearing in ionic energy form to Dallas before rejoining the T-Bolts. When the team is revealed to be actual villains, he goes on the run with them, but reforms- he is shown contemplating turning in the villainess Man-Killer, ultimately choosing to leave her be, as she seems to want to leave villainy behind like he did. His brother Conrad, Smuggler II, was killed following him into super-fights- Erik briefly betrayed the team to Zemo in the hopes of Zemo rescuing Conrad. Atlas kills Genis-Vell in a very bizarre tantrum, thinking he's coming between Songbird & MACH-IV, but it turns out that was under Zemo's orders, and it was thought that killing Genis would help Zemo save the universe.

-He loses his powers for a while, gains them back by depowering Dallas and leaving her paraplegic again, then un-cripples her. Then the Thunderbolts book kind of fades away, and he joins Wonder Man's anti-Avengers "Revengers" squad because he kept getting refused for Initiative teams. He appears as an inmate at Pleasant Hill, but joins the Winter Soldier's T-Bolts team and fights the Masters of Evil alongside Jolt in another tale. Then suddenly he joins Zemo & the Masters again, in revenge for the "Pleasant Hill" thing.

-Atlas thus stands as a fairly unique character in Marvel Comics- you really don't see a Journeyman Jobber Villain turn up for fifteen years, then suddenly gain new powers that actually STICK, then jobbing a bunch more, then actually REFORMING and having it stick for 10+ years. I liked him in Thunderbolts, though- he was believable as a top-tier powerhouse (he'd fought Thor & Herc in the past), and you could see him struggle with reforming in a way that the others didn't- there was this sense that some parts were genuine, like his appreciation for Jolt & Dallas making him want to be a better person, but his status as a follower (of Zemo, then the others), and his own struggles with doing the right thing (such as letting Man-Killer go free, having empathized with her plight), marked him as a somewhat more "real", complex character. Typically considering himself "just a grunt", he is nonetheless the first T-Bolt to empathize with an opponent, and often helps out even his enemies (once saving Zemo's life).

The Might of Atlas:
-Atlas is rather powerful, like a lot of Growth guys, but falters Defensively, hitting only PL 10 that way. He's PL 11 normally, though- he was The Thunderbolts' rating Powerhouse, KILLED Genis-Vell one time, and he's brawled with Thor for page after page and managed to survive. He grows big and he hits stuff. He's a bit better than his early "Jobber" days, but otherwise, yeah. Like Atom Smasher, he's strong in his basic form, forcing me to modify the Growth stuff a bit by... well, I just dropped in entirely. See, he would gain strength TITANTICALLY fast with Growth, and gains various aspects (vulnerability, Increased Mass, Reach) much quicker than others (he's strong, but doesn't start lifting thousands of tons, for instance). This means that I basically just cut apart Growth, and added up each aspect separately, Linking them together, and charging him the total. This... actually is remarkably close to what "Growth 16" (what he would need to hit 60 feet) would cost- 33 points instead of 32 points. So I'm not feeling too bad about screwing with the cost of it. Other guys (who don't start out so strong) are easier to build using regular Growth, especially with some Limited to Non-ST & STA Growths attached to it.

-He's not overly competent, or skilled, or good at fighting, he's just a really strong, hard guy that isn't much on the accurate/defensive end. I'm actually rather happy how he came out. As Goliath, he was slightly lower-level, likely PL 10. As Power Man, he likely drops Growth entirely, being just a PL 8.5-9 guy.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Songbird! MACH-1! Atlas!)

Post by Ares »

Atlas is evil again? That sucks.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Songbird! MACH-1! Atlas!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Ares wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 am Atlas is evil again? That sucks.
It honestly almost looks like the writers couldn't agree- he's on Zemo's side twice, but against him in the middle.

And as I mentioned on the Discord, I'm now SLOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWLLLLYYYYY going along my list of builds, translating the links from RA ones to the "Build Dump" thread I made. I was reading to just leave it as-is, but I've read enough Reddit & Facebook threads about people having trouble navigating the links (they skip out on the top lines of my first page, I think) that I had to create new links.

This is, as you might imagine, a pretty arduous process that has to be done carefully, lest certain links get permanently erased. I've finished all the Video Games, TV Show, Movie & DC Builds. Next up will by the LONG process of fixing the remaining Marvel builds.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Songbird! MACH-1! Atlas!)

Post by Ian Turner »

Ares wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:13 am Atlas is evil again? That sucks.
Eh, wait six months, he'll flip back again. He's like a pendulum.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Songbird! MACH-1! Atlas!)

Post by Goldar »

Ah ha, that is why Eric looked better as Atlas--he had plastic surgery to be more handsome!

I had remembered him from his Power Man days not being so attractive and looking better with his mask on, although Enchantress seemed to flirt with him.

Immediately after Nefaria's Process, Josten seemed stronger than Wonder Man (at that time) and easily belted him miles away. But of course, that super-strength quickly faded, leaving Josten with an even lower level of strength than before the process.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Songbird! MACH-1! Atlas!)

Post by M4C8 »

I liked that Josten had enhanced physical abilities at his normal height, it mean't he was more powerful when he grew than pretty much any other size changer, a true powerhouse.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Songbird! MACH-1! Atlas!)

Post by Goldar »

M4C8 wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:13 pm I liked that Josten had enhanced physical abilities at his normal height, it mean't he was more powerful when he grew than pretty much any other size changer, a true powerhouse.
Yes, if I remember correctly, 30 tons strength at his normal 6 Ft height.

(FYI: Wasp Janet has a higher level of super-strength at gigantic heights than most others, not because of greater strength at human height, but because of how her body reacts to the, uh, P-Particles granting her height.)
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Songbird! MACH-1! Atlas!)

Post by greycrusader »

Honestly? I think I'd just entirely write off Josten's apparent return to villainy, or at least explain it as excusable due to mental strain caused by overuse of his Growing powers. The latter would be entirely consistent with Marvel history and his own record on the Thunderbolts (he "killed" Genis-Vell after briefly assuming TITANIC sizes to support the collapsing U.N. building). I really do wish Marvel gave a damn about continuity or at least character consistency these days.

Atlas/Goliath III is tough to get a gauge for in terms of Power Level; on the one hand, he usually performs like a powerhouse roughly equal to Colossus or a less-skilled Ben Grimm, though with the advantages and disadvantages that go with giant-size (incredible leverage and gripping strength, but way easier to hit). However, his best showings are REALLY impressive-taking on Thor unaided for nearly a whole comic, knocking the Sub-Mariner out of the sky so hard that Prince Namor actually decided to retreat into the ocean, taking out King Hyperion with one punch. I'd actually say his top-tier feats make him look WAY better than Wonder Man, IMHO. Though again, these required him to grow much larger than his normal 15-60 foot span.

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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Songbird! MACH-1! Atlas!)

Post by Goldar »

I always thought Atlas/GM III at maximum height was above Wonder Man, especially back in GM III days when WM was at 95 tons.

I always figured Josten at 110-115 tons, again at 100+ Height. At 60 Ft, probably at 100 tons.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Moonstone! Songbird! MACH-1! Atlas!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Ah, Thunderbolts.
The original run was one of the saving graces of Marvel after Onslaught. I collected the series more or less up to when Hawkeye joined the team, after that the publication schedule became too erratic for me.
In and of itself the series could have been a very mediocre redemption tale, but the fact that you could clearly see that some characters were really buying into the idea of being heroes, while for others it just a mean to an end made everything click. My favorite moments were the issue #1 final plot twist and the redacted story that Zemo/Citizen V gave to Jolt, showcasing panels of the real events with Zemo's doctored narration, it was brilliant how he never really lied, just reframed the details.
I'm kind of pissed that Abe got the short straw in recent years, since I really liked him, even if only for the fact that (even as Beetle) he is one of the few supervillains that tries to update his arsenal.
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