What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Batgirl III
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

If the Morlocks spent the 50th Century discriminating against the Eloi, but then in the 51st Century the Eloi got to start discriminating against the Morlocks... It’s still discrimination.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by greycrusader »

I'm sorry Batgirl, but that's too simplistic an argument.

Let's take the most obvious example here in the U.S., that of African-Americans. Even after the end of slavery, white people (largely) prevented black people from accumulating wealth (were discriminated against in nearly all areas of higher education and the trades, little access to wider markets), "redlined" against black people purchasing houses even when they had sufficient cash/credit, mostly denied them representation in government (meaning few public resources were directed towards their neighborhoods and counties)...this doesn't even touch all the blatant racism, extra-legal assaults and executions, and so on.

And they had Pat Boone cover a Fats Domino song, which is a national shame all its own.

Now, even if de facto discrimination had all ended with the passage of the Civil Rights Act (it didn't), its simply grossly unfair to suggest simply not discriminating from that point onward constituted justice. Depriving the vast majority of a particular population of resources and opportunities for generations puts their current members at a huge disadvantage relative to others.

Many like to quote MLK Jr about the "content of character not color of skin", but they ignore what he said about what we term affirmative action. He was explicitly FOR it. He said as much, saying the US couldn't commit heinous injustices for centuries and then not take measures to redress such actions. (Note: I'm not saying anyone has to agree with all or anything MLK Jr said, only that his perspective is often grossly misrepresented today).

Of course. the MANNER of redressing those wrongs is magnitudes harder to execute in real life than in an abstract ideal. Most Americans (myself included) don't believe in collective guilt (while actually the country is majority Christian, who DO believe in collective guilt, so...) BUT it remains obvious generations of unequal treatment have resulted in grossly disparate situations for black and white Americans.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ken »

greycrusader wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:25 amwhile actually the country is majority Christian, who DO believe in collective guilt, so...
Dafuq?

Okay, I'll admit that the Covid lockdown did break me of my previous lifelong habit of getting to Mass at least 50 out of every 52 Sundays, but when did Christians start believing in collective guilt? I missed that memo.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by greycrusader »

Genesis? Adam and Eve disobey JHVH so the whole world is punished with strife, hardships, and death? Original sin? That’s collective guilt. The OT even speaks of curses being visited on three generations for “sins of the fathers”. It’s kind of clearly spelled out in Abrahamic religious teachings.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ken »

Batgirl III wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:35 pm If the Morlocks spent the 50th Century discriminating against the Eloi, but then in the 51st Century the Eloi got to start discriminating against the Morlocks... It’s still discrimination.
greycrusader wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:25 am I'm sorry Batgirl, but that's too simplistic an argument.

Let's take the most obvious example here in the U.S., that of African-Americans. Even after the end of slavery, white people (largely) prevented black people from accumulating wealth (were discriminated against in nearly all areas of higher education and the trades, little access to wider markets), "redlined" against black people purchasing houses even when they had sufficient cash/credit, mostly denied them representation in government (meaning few public resources were directed towards their neighborhoods and counties)...this doesn't even touch all the blatant racism, extra-legal assaults and executions, and so on.

And they had Pat Boone cover a Fats Domino song, which is a national shame all its own.

Now, even if de facto discrimination had all ended with the passage of the Civil Rights Act (it didn't), its simply grossly unfair to suggest simply not discriminating from that point onward constituted justice. Depriving the vast majority of a particular population of resources and opportunities for generations puts their current members at a huge disadvantage relative to others.

Many like to quote MLK Jr about the "content of character not color of skin", but they ignore what he said about what we term affirmative action. He was explicitly FOR it. He said as much, saying the US couldn't commit heinous injustices for centuries and then not take measures to redress such actions. (Note: I'm not saying anyone has to agree with all or anything MLK Jr said, only that his perspective is often grossly misrepresented today).

Of course. the MANNER of redressing those wrongs is magnitudes harder to execute in real life than in an abstract ideal. Most Americans (myself included) don't believe in collective guilt (while actually the country is majority Christian, who DO believe in collective guilt, so...) BUT it remains obvious generations of unequal treatment have resulted in grossly disparate situations for black and white Americans.
I fail to see how anything said by GC contradicts BG's "too simplistic argument."

Batgirl didn't say past injustices shouldn't redressed. She simply pointed out that discrimination is discrimination no matter who is doing it to whom, and therefore it's always a bad thing.

GreyCrusader's "the MANNER of redressing those wrongs is magnitudes harder to execute in real life than in an abstract ideal" actually follows along the same line.

Discrimination is bad. Discrimination is always bad. That does not prevent it from being a potential tool to redress past wrong-doings. It means if it is used in such a way it must be used carefully and sparingly.

Theft is bad. Theft is always bad. We still have eminent domain.

Killing is bad. Killing is always bad. We still have justifiable homicide.

Life is complicated. That doesn't mean we should dismiss simple moral truths. It means we should be acutely aware of them, in case we have to go against them.
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Batgirl III
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

So, anyway... What’s new with the big two comic book companies?
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by MacynSnow »

Heard a horrible Rumor Marvel's gonna cancel the current Avengers run & restart it with the first Movie cast....
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

MacynSnow wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:58 am Heard a horrible Rumor Marvel's gonna cancel the current Avengers run & restart it with the first Movie cast....
Honestly, at this point, I don't consider that so horrible. Jason Aaron's Avengers run, and his "contribution" to Marvel as a whole could be scrubbed entirely and I wouldn't shed a tear.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III »

The MCU’s original Avengers line-up was basically the “Greatest Hits” of the comics many, many, many different rosters over the years. The core “power trio” of Cap, Thor, and Iron Man; the visually impressive Hulk; and the human-level (but interesting character dynamic) of Black Widow and Hawkeye.

Just about any other roster I can think of would have been “too comic book-y” for general audiences or just filled with too many characters with too complicated a backstory to squeeze into an ensemble film.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

Regarding the whole "discrimination" argument, I'll just say this:

I believe in equality of outcome. What this means is that everyone who wants to go pursue and education and a career in whatever field should have the freedom to do so, regardless of that person's gender, orientation, ethnicity, politics, etc. Those qualities do not matter and should not be a barrier to enter into that field, whether it's to learn about the field or to purse that field as a career. However, that qualities equally do not matter when it comes to a person's actual performance or in creating opportunities for them. Once your in a field, the only thing that should matter is the work you put in and the quality of said work, along with your ability to work well with others.

The idea of "we need more of X in Y field" creates an issue where each field has a magic number of people it needs to have based on qualities that, by and large, do not actually affect their work. There is no such magic number. There is no "correct" amount of women in any field, no "correct amount" of any ethnicity, etc. Because if you start looking for qualities beyond talent, work ethic, skill and ability to be a team player, you are going to prioritize less qualified people in the pursuit of some ideal of equality that is completely arbitrary.

The goal should not be "We need more women in STEM". The goal should be "Every woman who wants to pursue a STEM degree/career should have the opportunity to do so, and then succeed or fail based on her own efforts". And if anyone tries to keep that woman out of STEM, not hire her solely because of her gender, or similar nonsense, then that is actual discrimination and the person perpetrating such acts should be punished within the full extent of the law. At the same time, treating this woman with kid gloves, not holding her to the standards of the industry or hiring her because of her gender rather than her talent is not doing the woman or her field any favors, as it teachers her that she can coast by on her gender and makes her associate any criticism of her work as a criticism of her gender.

Trying to fight discrimination, real or perceived, with a different form of discrimination is counter productive. It prioritizes people who may not have the same love of an industry, the talent needed to keep an industry strong and profitable, or who build the right kind of work environment, solely because they tick off boxes that, at best, improves companies image to certain people. That is a recipe for disaster.

How do we get to this point of equality of outcome? We start focusing on people as individuals rather than parts of some collective group. We appreciate that every individual has their own experiences, and that sharing the same gender, race, politics, religion or any other quality with another person does not mean their life experiences are the same. We focus on an educational system that actually educates, and on support systems to help those willing to put the work in whose home circumstances might put them at a disadvantage compared to others. We try to help each other be the best we each can be, rather than trying to tear people down to a level we're comfortable with.

In short, we treat everyone as a unique person first and foremost, and everything else is secondary.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

Batgirl III wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:44 pm The MCU’s original Avengers line-up was basically the “Greatest Hits” of the comics many, many, many different rosters over the years. The core “power trio” of Cap, Thor, and Iron Man; the visually impressive Hulk; and the human-level (but interesting character dynamic) of Black Widow and Hawkeye.

Just about any other roster I can think of would have been “too comic book-y” for general audiences or just filled with too many characters with too complicated a backstory to squeeze into an ensemble film.
Yeah, Cap, Tony and Thor are all "the Big Three" of the Avengers, and a roster without them almost doesn't feel right. The Hulk is likewise a major Marvel figure, and the four of them together each had their own introductory movie to get the audience familiar with them. Hawkeye is a longtime mainstay Avenger, one who doesn't need as big an introduction as the others, especially not when given the shared SHIELD Agent background that Natasha did.

Honestly, as far as Avengers franchises go, Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes did a fantastic job of introducing the team in an animated format, with some changes to make them more accessible. The roster of Cap, Thor, Iron Man, Wasp, Ant-Man, Hulk, Black Panther, Hawkeye, Vision and Ms. Marvel (Carol) made for a pretty potent team, pretty balanced in terms of skill and power, though leaning a bit heavily on the power side.

Sadly, that got replaced with Avengers Assemble, which ironically did basically put the first Avengers film team into a cartoon . . . only it handled them badly.

The first movie Avengers team is actually pretty balanced, with two heavy hitters (Thor and Hulk), one leader (Cap), one science guy (Iron Man), one sneak/stealth expert (Widow) and one utility hero (Hawkeye). The addition of Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Vision made for an even more balanced, pseudo-classic team, since they had a mystic, a speedster and someone who was equal parts heavy hitter and science guy.

Ultimately, more important than who's on the Avengers is who's writing the team, since Jason Aaron has shown that he can screw up even a mostly awesome Avengers roster.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Woodclaw »

Given that the current run on Thor is literally undoing most of what Jason Aaron did over the years, from reframing Odin in a slightly better light to explaining why everyone can now lift Mjolnir, I dread to think about the acrobatics it would require to fix the Avengers.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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I wouldn’t let Aaron write a shopping list, let alone a flagship title for my comic book company...
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by MacynSnow »

The new writers COULD do this very simple thing that can save ALL of Marvel Cannon:
"What numbered Earth are we on again?"

That's right, Alternative Earth. or, as Prof.Richards would recall "the one i let the kids make".

I'ma go take a nap now. Have fun storming Continuty! :D
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

So, any thought's on the X-Men's Hellfire Ball and their ... interesting fashion choices?

Personally, I'm wondering why Rachel Summers is wearing something that looks like it's trying to fetishize what she wore as a slave in the alternate future she originally came from. Maybe it's a subtle cry for help?
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