What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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greycrusader
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by greycrusader »

Who is writing that Iron Man junk? And has the author ever even READ a comic featuring Patsy Walker?
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Ken
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ken »

I thought Patsy was dead, and someone else was wearing a similar costume. Patsy's costume was blue trim over yellow, not black.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

greycrusader wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:12 am Who is writing that Iron Man junk? And has the author ever even READ a comic featuring Patsy Walker?
Given the sort of writers Marvel has hired over the past five years, it would not shock me if I were to learn that they've never read a comic featuring Iron Man and only know him from the movies. :|
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares »

The writer for that Iron Man scene is apparently Christopher Cantwell, who is apparently mostly well known for writing/directing for film and television, such as Paper Girls, The Parts You Lose, and Halt and Catch Fire. He also apparently has some prior comic experience starting in 2018, having written She Could Fly, the 2019 Dr. Doom series, The Mask series I Pledge Allegiance to The Mask and a book just called Everything.

So he has some comics experience, though not a whole lot. Someone more familiar with the Dr. Doom book or any of his TV shows can probably give better insight. All I know is that I'm not even tempted to pick up his Iron Man book.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Shock »

I just read that comic. I was kinda hoping there would be context where those panels would make sense. But there's not. It's just a weird shot at Tony with no clear substance. But Tony's recent history in comics has been full of that kind of stuff. There was the thing about how he "abuses" AI. Almost every arc has him under attack for his business dealings in ignorance of all the focus he's given to creating a clean company. There was that ridiculous Superior Iron Man arc where he was selling Extremis through a smartphone app. It's like he just can't be a good guy anymore.

The first 2 issues of Iron Man 2020 are so bad I'm considering skipping whatever comes next. And I'm as big a Patsy Walker fan as there is. She doesn't just make sense for the role she's been shoe-horned into.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Woodclaw »

In general it's pretty easy to pick on Tony Stark being the poster boy for white privilege and whatnot, especially after Civil War and all the nonsense he was put through in the 2000s. Granted, looking back at the '90s, Tony was already pushing his luck when he formed Force Works as a "more proactive team", which went down in flames after "The Crossing".
Still, there was a really good interview with Len Kaminski (the writer of Iron Man between issue #280 and #305, i.e. the guy that wrote the death of Tony Stark, introduced the War Machine Armor and the Modular Armor), where he said that the really difficult part about writing Tony is that he's not almost the opposite of what you expect. Tony Stark is a multi-billionaire, head of a world-spanning high-tech corporation and he's supposed to be one of the good guys. According to Kaminski this was really hard to write sometimes because new readers would expect Tony to be the poster boy for entitlement, the kind of man that would just toss money at every problem until people stopped bothering him (which is actually how MCU Tony Stark worked for quite some time). On the other hand Tony is a man that discovered his own weaknesses in a very direct and terrible way: alcoholism, coming to terms with how his father was both a great man and terrible parent, seeing his own work used against innocent people. Even the armor has been a source of problems for Tony and some of his friend (caused Jim Rhodes a mental breakdown, Kevin O'Brien died piloting the prototype of Guardsman armor, etc.) and yet Tony can't let it go. Why?
Kaminski said that he consider Tony something akin to a pathological risk-taker. In his mind, young Tony just had life too easy, so he always tried to push himself out of his comfort zone. This is what pushed him to go on field patrol to help U.S. soldiers testing the weapons he built, he was hoping to get a little adventure, what he got was a damaged heart and the first Iron Man armor. This was also the first time Tony smashed face first with the consequences of his work and his reputation, being Iron Man is a way for him to sate his pathological need for risk, but also a way to repay the world of his wrongdoings.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Shock »

It just seems like recently Iron Man has moved into "every story is the same." Tony invents some new technology, it blows up in his face and then he has to mitigate the damage and face the consequences. And it's been going on for 20 years.

Tony was born rich but everything he has now is from his own doing. He didn't just sit and eat those benefits. He saw what he had and decided he should use his advantages to help other people. Sort of like a Bill Gates. He's not feeding off the less privileged. Instead of turning him into yet another "Wealth is bad" stereotype, I'd much rather see him held up as an example for how to do wealthy right. Show his philanthropy. Show his inventions that are intended to help society and actually work out.

/mini Ares rant off
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

I remember at least one version of GI Joe's Destro where the character's file card/bio included him saying that he felt no sort of shame or regret for his chosen profession (weapons manufacturer and arms dealer) because for the majority of human civilization, the main dividing line between a free man and a slave was the right to carry a weapon. While that's probably overly simplistic, I confess that on more than one occasion I've wished Tony would take that sort of attitude. If nothing else, I would at least like to see someone point out that one of the cornerstones of a reasonably free and safe society (what we think of as civilization) is having people who protect it from harm. On the small scale, that means peacekeepers/law enforcers. On the large scale, it means a military. And someone has to provide that military with weapons and equipment.
But even beyond that, there's Tony's response to the issue at the start of the first Iron Man film. While his company makes a lot of profit off of military hardware - especially at a time the US was involved in two active war zones - a lot of that money also goes into researching and creating things like new and more effective agricultural crops, advanced medical technology, and new sources of energy. These are things that either otherwise wouldn't exist or would be on a much smaller, more experimental scale and much less available to the general public.
I suspect that ultimately Tony's greatest enemy is that of historical inertia. A lot of the stuff Stark's companies make should be the sort of things that change our world and culture at least on the same level as Apple's release of the iPhone. Near full body super-lightweight body armor that completely protects soldiers from rifle rounds and shrapnel. Fully functional artificial hearts and limbs. Non-lethal weapons for police officers. Completely clean power sources that allow for all electric transportation, especially in cities. And so on. But because Marvel is perpetually stuck in whatever our real world looks like now, regardless of how long Iron Man and the other characters have been around, none of this ever comes about. And so writers just keep defaulting to the Rich Playboy who needs to learn a Life Lesson stereotype/trope.
What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by csyphrett »

If they change the setting too much, then it wouldn't look like our world. I feel like I have to point out that Marvel and DC partially destroy their universes all the time. I don't think changing the setting to more logical advanced science would be that bad. At least their space programs are doing okay even if it doesn't do anything for the general populace
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Shock »

NoOneofConsequence wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:48 pm I remember at least one version of GI Joe's Destro where the character's file card/bio included him saying that he felt no sort of shame or regret for his chosen profession (weapons manufacturer and arms dealer) because for the majority of human civilization, the main dividing line between a free man and a slave was the right to carry a weapon. While that's probably overly simplistic, I confess that on more than one occasion I've wished Tony would take that sort of attitude. If nothing else, I would at least like to see someone point out that one of the cornerstones of a reasonably free and safe society (what we think of as civilization) is having people who protect it from harm. On the small scale, that means peacekeepers/law enforcers. On the large scale, it means a military. And someone has to provide that military with weapons and equipment.
But even beyond that, there's Tony's response to the issue at the start of the first Iron Man film. While his company makes a lot of profit off of military hardware - especially at a time the US was involved in two active war zones - a lot of that money also goes into researching and creating things like new and more effective agricultural crops, advanced medical technology, and new sources of energy. These are things that either otherwise wouldn't exist or would be on a much smaller, more experimental scale and much less available to the general public.
I'm going to have to disagree here. Destro is pretty much the template of evil arms dealer, profit above all else. To use him as an example for Tony Stark is going to make Stark less likeable. Even in the movie, he tried to make the "I only sell to good guys" point only to see that his weapons get into the wrong hands far too easily. Destro doesn't even go that far. He'll sell to anyone. That's a Tony Stark I don't want to see.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

Shock wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:34 pm I'm going to have to disagree here. Destro is pretty much the template of evil arms dealer, profit above all else. To use him as an example for Tony Stark is going to make Stark less likeable. Even in the movie, he tried to make the "I only sell to good guys" point only to see that his weapons get into the wrong hands far too easily. Destro doesn't even go that far. He'll sell to anyone. That's a Tony Stark I don't want to see.
It's not Destro himself I'm talking about, but that single quote. I've found it increasingly tiresome over the years that Tony must consistently be forced to wear a hair shirt and beg forgiveness in a public Struggle Session over the fact that his company has, at times, supplied weapons systems to the militaries of mostly democratic capitalist nations seeking to defend themselves from various totalitarian, repressive and even nihilistic threats. Just for once I'd like to see him proudly own that fact, and point out that doing so it what allows him to finance a wide range of life saving inventions and technology.
But again, the problem of historical inertia means that we never get to see Tony's stuff actually impact the world to the degree it should. Which is unfortunate, because I think that would be a cool thing to explore.
What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by csyphrett »

I don't know if this has come up but Marvel Television is now under Kevin Feige. Jeph Loeb and a lot of guys are out.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Jack of Spades »

I think the key to having Tony impact the world is to tweak things in the MU so that he's having the impact that others are having in the real world. We see this somewhat in DC with Sundollar Coffee and Big Belly Burger. So it's not the iPhone, it's the Iron Phone (marketing wouldn't let him call it the Tony Phone). Stark International's the one that came up with the 2 nanometer fabrication process and builds the drones that deliver your groceries.

I really think the best moment in the Iron Man films comes in Iron Man 2 when Tony tells the Senate, "You can't have it! But I did you a big favor... I've successfully privatized world peace!" That arrogant son-of-a-bitch with good intentions is the character I remember from before the Dark Age, and I'd like to see him back in the comics.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Woodclaw »

Well, the current Marvel writers just did it: they managed to screw up Fantastic 4 for the sake of writing a story with a subtext that nobody but some of them could see in it.
https://bleedingcool.com/comics/one-pro ... -a-mutant/
For those who don't know this is the long and short of it.
At the end of the last issue of F4 Franklin found himself powerless, after using all of his residual cosmic power trying to take down a Silver Surfer-level space entity. Desperate, he tried to run to one of the portals to Krakoa but couldn't get through... as if he was no longer a mutant. This sent him on a downward spiral since after hitting puberty he started taking a lot of pride in being a mutant.
Except that apparently, he never was!
Well according to this new soft-retcon by Dan Slott, Franklin wanted to be special since he was little, so his cosmic powers created the illusion that he was a mutant. As a result, Xavier told him, in no uncertain terms that "You're no longer welcome on Krakoa" (keep in mind that Scarlet Witch is welcome, despite being considered the Anti-Christ of mutantkind).
What left me speechless is how this entire ordeal should be, according to some writers and comic book critics an analogy for trans or queer kids living with "well-meaning but normal parents, who can do untold damage by telling their kid that they understand, when they actually don't".

Ok, let me take one step back. Framing the story of Franklin this way might not be bad. Mutants have often been used as stand-ins for various persecuted groups, so using the only mutant member of the First Family as a stand-in for queer or trans kids makes sense, but everything else does not.
Are they really trying to sell the idea that Reed, Sue and the rest of the F4 were damaging Franklin by preventing him from running away and setting down in Krakoa for good before he was 18?
I get what they were trying to say about finding your own community, your own spot, but the problem is that Krakoa is a closed "ivory tower" style community that has little to no relationship with the rest of the world. In my mind, saying "that is the right thing because a non-mutant would never understand" (Franklin used this argument once on Johnny) is a perfect example of how NOT to write any kind of story about a minority.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by NoOneofConsequence »

I think Just Some Guy also pointed out that the Xavier of just about everything prior to this run would not turn away any young person in need, mutant or not. (I think he actually invited Spiderman to join the X-Men back in the 60s.) I'm kind of still waiting for the reveal that this Xavier is actually the mirror universe version here to create an army of Nazi sex slaves.
What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)
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