https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6YsDwg0HiY
It's pretty long, roughly 90 minutes, but it makes good listening if can find the time for it.
In essence, Literature Devil takes several quotes from different people and uses them to tackle the idea of heroism, and why some people seem to scoff at the idea of more idealistic heroes in favor of anti-heroes and villains.
These Quotes include:
Bill's infamous speech from Kill Bill:
Bill of Kill Bill wrote:“Superman didn't become Superman. Superman was born Superman. When Superman wakes up in the morning, he's Superman. His alter ego is Clark Kent. His outfit with the big red "S", that's the blanket he was wrapped in as a baby when the Kents found him. Those are his clothes. What Kent wears - the glasses, the business suit - that's the costume. That's the costume Superman wears to blend in with us. Clark Kent is how Superman views us. And what are the characteristics of Clark Kent. He's weak... he's unsure of himself... he's a coward. Clark Kent is Superman's critique on the whole human race.”
Zack Snyder's infamous quote about heroes in general:
Zack Snyder wrote:“Someone says to me like, ‘Oh! Batman killed a guy!’ I’m like, ‘Fuck, really?’ I’m like, ‘Wake the fuck up!’ That’s what I’m saying about once you’ve lost your virginity to this fucking movie and then you come and say to me something about like, ‘Oh, my superhero wouldn’t do that,’ I’m like, ‘Are you serious? I’m like down the fucking road on that.’ You know what I mean?”
***
“It’s a cool point of view to be like, ‘My heroes are still innocent. My heroes didn’t lie to America. My heroes didn’t embezzle money. My heroes didn’t commit any atrocities.’ I’m like, ‘That’s cool, but you’re living in a fucking dream world'."
And Sana Amanat, Vita Ayala, Tini Howard and Leah Williams comments during a Women of Marvel Podcast:
As a counter example, Literature Devil brings up the Four Cardinal Virtues:The Women of Marvel wrote:"I also love how you brought up a villain because that's something I laugh about a lot. Like, when people bring up the very valid, like, academic discourse about queer coding in villainy, but at the same time I'm like . . . I identify with villains."
***
"I feel that we identify with villains because of their struggle. Very rarely today do we have a villain that is just cookie cutter. It's like oh, you were traumatized and abused. And you are like 'I'm going to reflect that back'. -Oh I would never do that, but I feel that real deep. It would be a catharsis."
***
"We find something instantly recognizable in these characters that are queer coded and vilified, specifically and are misunderstood by everyone around them. Even if we don't consciously know why we're drawn to these characters, it's kind of an experience that is recognizable."
***
"And for a long time too with villain characters, just in general, not specific to Marvel. They also had a lot of room, not just to be queer, but just to do things that were a little more nuanced and complicated than the cookie-cutter hero characters because you get all this pressure for the hero to kind of stay in one lane . . . because that's the moral character and the moral center of the story. Whereas, with the villain, it's like -no- you can have moments of softness and moments of doubt and all of these things and then you're still the villain."
***
"I would rather see that story (i.e. a villain's story) than the one where the person is like 'hi I'm a good person,' and that's it. I'm going to punch the bad guy."
Prudence: The ability to discern the correct course of action in each situation at just the right time.
Temperance: The practice of self-control and moderation.
Justice: Having a strong sense of fairness.
Fortitude: Having the strength to carry out the other virtues, to endure pain and hardiship, and to overcome fear, uncertainty and intimidation.
And these four virtues are ones we can find in almost any hero. Even the heroes that are assholes or jerks will have strong aspects of these four virtues. And it's through the examination of these virtues and what it means to be Superman that we can come to one conclusion:
Zack Snyder and the Women of Marvel don't have a single clue about what it means to be a hero.
Ignoring the questionable "queer coding" bit, the Women of Marvel put forth that villains are more interesting because they struggle. They don't see the villains as being "cookie cutter", having room to be nuanced and complicated, having moments of softness and doubt. Meanwhile heroes are boring, cookie cutter characters who are just good, show up to punch the bad guy and have to "stay in one lane".
And I find myself wondering if any of these women ever read a comic book before Marvel hired them. Because it sounds like they've never seen stories where a hero has to overcome adversity. Or struggle with the morality of a situation. Have moments of weakness and vulnerability. Everything they said about villains could apply to heroes, with the exception of one thing: the moral center.
Heroes have morality. They show restraint. They have the same impulses as other people, they struggle with the same things other people do, but they have the moral conviction to do the right thing, rather than the easy thing. To make sacrifices in the name of others, specifically so that others will be safe and happy, even if they have to endure pain and hardship.
Heroes hold themselves to a high standard, and they do so partially to inspire us to live by a similar standard. To understand and love heroes is to understand that, as a person, things are expected from you, and you need to demand more of yourself in order to live up to the ideals of the heroes you admire.
The reason Zack Snyder doesn't believe in genuine heroes and the reasons the Women of Marvel identify with villains, is because they don't believe in holding themselves to those ideals. In short, they're lazy, immature children. Zack Snyders heroes will gladly compromise their morality and embrace nihilism because being a moral person and holding on to optimism int he face of adversity is sometimes hard. The Women of Marvel identify with villains because they get to do whatever they want without those pesky moral restraints. They talk about empathizing with "the struggle", but if that were true they'd empathize more with the heroes, because they not only struggle with the same challenges of other people, but the moral challenges to do the right thing. At which point you realize the only struggle they care about is the "struggle to get what I want" which is at the core of a villain's struggle. So in essence, the Women of Marvel empathize with the villain's commitment to self-indulgence and selfishness in general.
There's a lot of reasons why the current comic industry is in a lot of trouble, of which the pandemic is only a relatively small part. Toxic business practices, marketing schemes and sales gimmicks that bleed shop owners of money. Flood the shelves practices and constant event comics that lose interest rather than generate them. Endless relaunches of books and the pursuit of different "phantom audiences". Questionable hiring practices, creators that spend more time on social media than working, using their time to create tension with fans rather than to promote their own books.
But a strong core of the issue is simply this: to be able to really tell a good superhero story, you have to, on some level, believe in heroic ideals. Because at the end of the day, the "hero" part of superhero is vastly more important than the "super". And if you find yourself not believing in heroes or identifying with the villains over the heroes, you've got no business having creative control over superheroes.
As for Superman? I recommend you watch the video, but for my money (as well as Literature Devil's money) there will always be a place for people like Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, Captain America, the original Captain Marvel and the countless other true heroes out there. Because those heroes inspire us to be better. They show us a level of heroism that isn't unattainable, merely difficult to live up to. But it's possible.
And for the record, Zack? My heroes include guys like Mr. Fred Rogers and my father. And they never lied to America, never embezzled money and never committed any atrocities. Just because you lack moral fortitude, don't assume everyone else does.
Which brings us to that Kill Bill quote. Bill, like Zack, is projecting his own faults, his own pessimism, his own darkness onto other characters and assuming it's something insightful, rather than their own weakness clouding their perceptions. It's why that line from Kill Bill tells you nothing about Superman and everything about Bill. They see weakness in other people because they see weakness in themselves, and they can't imagine someone having the morality to stand by their convictions.
Superman, the real Superman, is still relevant today. Because even though he's a fictional character, he can still save us from these kind of people who tell us we're weak, that we're corrupt, that we will some day commit atrocities or do terrible things. That we should embrace selfishness and hedonism.
Superman can save us from them by reminding us of our better nature.
And to end it on a good quote, as one version of Jor-El put it:
Jor-El wrote:"They can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you… my only son."