Should equipment being removed, broken, or jammed result in a Hero Point?

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FuzzyBoots
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Should equipment being removed, broken, or jammed result in a Hero Point?

Post by FuzzyBoots »

In this Reddit discussion, the querent took offense at us saying that Equipment can be arbitrarily removed or disabled without a Hero Point, unlike Devices or regular powers, where generally it's considered an imposed Power Loss Complication which nets a Hero Point. And... they might be right. There are two mentions of the GM taking away Equipment, one of which seems to explicitly state that the hero still gets a Hero Point when you tell them that their disarmed knife falls off the side of the roof, or their gun is out of bullets and will need to be reloaded, and one which starts out saying that Equipment has this disadvantage, but then seems to back off on it.
Lots of equipment has a limited lifespan: guns run out of ammo, cars run out of gas, SCUBA tanks run out of oxygen, and batteries run out of juice. However, it can be a hassle to keep track of the lifespan of every piece of equipment the heroes may have (to say nothing of all the villains and supporting characters). So these rules pay fairly little attention to equipment running out or breaking down except when the Gamemaster wants to make things interesting for the heroes with a complication or two. Thus equipment failure—either due to running out of fuel or simple malfunction—is a dramatic issue rather than a matter of cost-accounting and keeping track of things like ammo and how much gas is in the tank of the hero’s super-car.
Equipment is subject to damage, malfunctions, and loss, even more so than devices with the Removable flaw (see the flaw description in Powers). Equipment may be lost or taken away from the character with impunity, and the GM may have equipment fail, run out of ammo or fuel, or otherwise malfunction as a complication.
Before someone complains that this is another 3E oversight, both texts are present in the 2E book as well, almost verbatim. What's kind of weird to me is that the text seems to indicate that complete removal of the equipment is not grounds for a Hero Point, but just having it jam or run out of amnmo is. For as long as I've played Mutants and Masterminds, people have treated Equipment as "you don't get a Hero Point for having your gun jam" but having Devices "run out of orgone energy" is grounds for a Hero Point. I feel like that common idea of how to handle things has to come from somewhere, but I can't seem to find a good citation.
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squirrelly-sama
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Re: Should equipment being removed, broken, or jammed result in a Hero Point?

Post by squirrelly-sama »

The Core Rules that were released for the SRD have their flaws and oversights. IIRC the 2E version had clarification for several rules that were forgotten in migration to the 3E that are still referenced in the current edition. It seems a lot of the time for weird mixups when it comes to rules it appears they assumed anyone using the system would be familiar with 2E and use it to fill in the gaps. Likewise 3E has it's own issues with verbiage and almost contradictory technicalities on rules that we can actually see in action in your second quote. According to the rules as written you can Equipment can be lost or taken away with impunity, implying that it can happen at any time with no cost along with a separate section of the sentence going on that equipment failure such as running out of ammo or malfunctioning is considered a complication. So it appears that running out of bullets may net you a Hero Point but having the gun removed through other means doesn't.

This is even debatable if the term "Complication" used there is being used in the technical or a colloquial sense as the SRD has a few instances of the team using mechanical terms as a means of description where using the technical meaning vastly changes the mechanics of what it's referring to. Usually rule books that have this problem have some form of index or means of differentiating a common word and it's mechanical homonym when it's impossible to not use both, like capitalization and bolding which are missing here but the SRD also contains instances of mechanical terms being used with out either to muss that up.
Kevin MacTaggert
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Re: Should equipment being removed, broken, or jammed result in a Hero Point?

Post by Kevin MacTaggert »

Seems very plain the GM may award a HP for problems related to Equipment:
Damage and Loss
Equipment is subject to damage, malfunctions, and loss, even more so than devices with the Removable flaw (see the flaw description in the Powers chapter). Equipment may be lost or taken away from the character with impunity, and the GM may have equipment fail, run out of ammo or fuel, or otherwise malfunction as a complication.
M&M 3e gives groups space to determine what works best at their gaming table:
Rules Issues & House Rules
... Any disputes should be discussed with an eye toward finding a solution everyone finds satisfactory, rather than trying to stick to the exact letter of the “rules as written.” The spirit of Mutants & Masterminds is to have fun. As long as you focus on that, you can’t be far off.
jmucchiello
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Re: Should equipment being removed, broken, or jammed result in a Hero Point?

Post by jmucchiello »

It seems to me that equipment should not earn you a hero point because if you wanted it to, you would pay for it as a device. But between scenarios, equipment should replenish free of charge, or you have to redistribute the power points.

OTOH, GMs should give HP out more freely to make combats take less time. So, if you think your combats are dragging, one source of HP is lost equipment.
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Hellstormer1
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Re: Should equipment being removed, broken, or jammed result in a Hero Point?

Post by Hellstormer1 »

IMO....

The two quotes from the rules you listed, both of these mention loss of Equipment as being treated as a Complication. That's where you simplify this whole mess. As Complications are purpose built to award Hero Points when players have to deal with them, losing Equipment should award a Hero point. If its loss is referred to as a Complication, that alone seems to settle the matter, at least from my perspective.

To further drive this point home, there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between how Removable Powers and Equipment works, reflected in their cost. Removable Powers do not just stop working, unless the player added in something like a Power Loss Complication to reflect this. Therefor, Removable Powers don't just stop working for the player unless they are somehow "removed" by a villain.

Equipment, on the other hand, CAn stop working at any time when the GM says so. The GM may not be allowed to says Removable Powers stop working except under certain conditions, but they CAN do this with Equipment. Due to this, Equipment has this disadvantage reflected in its price, BUT, doing this to the player still puts them at a disadvantage in the game, possibly at a critical moment when they really, REALLY, need that Equipment to work.

Because of that, taking Equipment away definitely counts as a Complication, and Complications DEFINITELY award Hero Points.
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squirrelly-sama
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Re: Should equipment being removed, broken, or jammed result in a Hero Point?

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Hellstormer1 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:01 amTo further drive this point home, there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between how Removable Powers and Equipment works, reflected in their cost. Removable Powers do not just stop working, unless the player added in something like a Power Loss Complication to reflect this. Therefor, Removable Powers don't just stop working for the player unless they are somehow "removed" by a villain.
Not really, the differences actually described to be between Devices and Equipment by the SRD lists it as being a matter of descriptor, with Devices being more fanciful BS instead of generic things, additive bonuses calculations, as well as general usability and durability of the object as well as the requirement that GM will have to return or fix the device eventually.
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Hellstormer1
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Re: Should equipment being removed, broken, or jammed result in a Hero Point?

Post by Hellstormer1 »

squirrelly-sama wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 4:55 pm
Hellstormer1 wrote: Fri Aug 07, 2020 5:01 amTo further drive this point home, there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between how Removable Powers and Equipment works, reflected in their cost. Removable Powers do not just stop working, unless the player added in something like a Power Loss Complication to reflect this. Therefor, Removable Powers don't just stop working for the player unless they are somehow "removed" by a villain.
Not really, the differences actually described to be between Devices and Equipment by the SRD lists it as being a matter of descriptor, with Devices being more fanciful BS instead of generic things, additive bonuses calculations, as well as general usability and durability of the object as well as the requirement that GM will have to return or fix the device eventually.
Eh. Doesn't change what I said about Complications. If Equipment loss is referred to as a Complication, the characters still get a Hero Point because that's what Complications do. 'Nuff said.
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