That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

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That Sullivan Guy
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That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

While discussing a few things over in one of Jab's threads, I mentioned I have quite a few house rules. A few posters expressed interest in seeing them, and at Ken's suggestion, I will be placing them in this thread/sub-forum as the most appropriate place to do so.

A few points to keep in mind while reading these:

<*> These changes and additions are reflective of my personal gaming style and those of my players. I use some form of "in my opinion" in several places as that's what all the experiences and reactions that birthed theses rules are —mine. In no place or form do I present these changes and additions as the Platonic Ideal by which this system SHOULD abide.

<*>I've had the same group for most of the last two decades. They represent a spread of gamer types & styles, but include a couple of serious gearheads vis-a-vis RPG rules (one's a high school physics teacher and the other is a computer programmer whose first work out of grad school was for NASA); so, while I myself am only a middling gearhead (I prefer creating "fluff" to creating "crunch"), nothing hits my table for very long without a thorough breakdown and analysis.

<*>I and three of my players are in our early 50s. The other three players are in their 40s. We have a not insignificant amount of gaming experience among us ranging from 34 to 42 years in the hobby. I started running V&V and Champions in the early 1980s and have run Champions on and off ever since, adding M&M to the repertoire starting two weeks after 1st ed hit the stands. I say this by way of explaining that neither I nor my "crew" approach house rules on a whim. No system is perfect and over time the annoyances and frustrations with those elements that don't quite work for us grow until we look to house rules to fix them —but one of our cardinal guides is "Don't make it worse;" if a new rule causes more overhead with little gain, it ain't worth it. However, I look at any system as just a toolkit (not sacred writ) and treat them as such.


***

These are copied pretty much straight from the document I give my players. Don't be confused by references that show this context.
Last edited by That Sullivan Guy on Tue Feb 02, 2021 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That Sullivan Guy
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Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

From Existing Materials

Gadget Guides: Unless I tell you specifically otherwise, assume anything from this book is fair game.

Gamemaster’s Guide: We will be using the following optional systems from Chapter 6:

Ability Strain, Knockback (modifiers are generally ranks from any size or density increase, features that make you harder to move against your will, and/or just a -2 for a human body being unaerodynamic), Lethal Damage (but healing per day, not per hour), and Hero Point Tradeoffs. On rare occasions, we may actually even use the Mass Combat rules. In the same vein, I am also using the “Pursuit Challenges” and “So, What’s My Laptop’s Will Defense” sidebars from Pulse’s and Digital Demon’s Threat Reports (respectively). I’ll provide the text for those of you who actually need it. Go ahead and write down your knockback modifier on your character sheet.

Power Profiles: Unless I tell you specifically otherwise, assume anything from this book is fair game. (I’ll provide the text for those of you who actually need it.) For example, I call out a House Rule regarding the Impervious modifier later in this document, so ignore the sidebar for optional rules regarding that specific modifier as presented in Power Profiles.


**There are a few other items compiled from other M&M books released over time that I have consolidated into one document for easy reference. I won’t relist them here.**
That Sullivan Guy
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

Entirely New Rules

Character Death: Recurring issues with some players carried over from systems with high rates of PC death results in a paranoid tendency toward spot defenses (spending time searching for and acquiring mechanical counters for every exploitable combat loophole or attack type, regardless of the PC’s actual character theme and background or campaign tropes), acting out of character in play situations for fear of otherwise suffering mechanical setbacks, and generally hoarding HP for rerolling resistance checks rather than spending them on, well, ANYTHING else. This stems from an adversarial outlook from players towards the GM, which is to say, some mistaken notion of “winning” or “losing” the game.

In this game, this GM promises that PC deaths are never going to occur just as the result of die rolls or mechanical results. PC deaths are narratively important and if they occur, will only do so when the players want them to happen (i.e., consulting with the GM so you go out a Big Damn Hero before you leave the game for good or change out for a new character). Otherwise, the worst mechanical damage outcome for a player is incapacitation and being taken out of either the combat at hand or the session in general. Now, this isn’t to say there won’t be scenarios where the player character might not have preferred death to what actually happens; it just means that PCs are too important to replace over a die roll.

Note that a “dying” condition applied to a PC simply means they are out of commission until that condition can be healed, regardless of how long that takes.



Trade-Off for Long-Term Damage Complications: A player whose character is about to suffer an incapacitating condition due to damage can instead choose to take a long-term damage complication instead.

Example: Des’s character is about to suffer an incapacitating condition from an attacker’s super-strong punch, which he knows will leave his fellow players in a bad state as they are depending rather heavily on his character. Des sighs and tells the GM it’s going to suck fighting with one arm as the hit he just took shattered the bones in the other arm. The GM nods. Instead of suffering the incapacitated condition, Des’s character instead will have the long-term complication “Grievously Injured Arm” until such time as it can be healed; of course, in the following rounds, when that complication impacts his character, he DOES receive HP for it (unable to do things that require two hands, suffers action penalties due to pain, has his Toughness DCs raised when knowing enemies target his limply dangling arm, etc.).
That Sullivan Guy
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

Changes to Existing Rules

Dice : We will be using 2d10 instead of 1d20 for our resolution mechanic. This means that a natural “2” is an auto-failure instead of a natural “1” and that critical successes are a bit harder to come by.

Why?

A d20 simply has a wonkier excuse for a distribution curve than I’d like and 2d10 doesn’t (bell curves make for more reasonable and reliable combats, for one).

DC Base for Resistance Checks: All power effects that involve forcing a Resistance Check, not just the Damage effect, use 15 as the base instead of 10. Skill-based “effects” still use 10 as the DC base.


Why?

The staging and general effectiveness of these effects should mirror Damage in the level of inconvenience suffered by the stages, but the difference in the numerical base skews this tremendously from my experience and perspective. Equipment-rank applications aren’t even useful against minions without GM fiat or extremely poor die-rolling. It’s just a consequence of the way the numbers scale when 10 is the base, and it makes those effects (popular ones in a comic book setting) almost completely useless in actual play (again, in my experience).
[I was one of the playtest GMs for 3e (and DCA before it), and I have run and played this game throughout its existence. In all that time, I can count on one hand (with fingers left over) the number of times I have seen any character, PC or even bystander NPCs, ever fail resistance checks to Affliction or Weakness effects to an extent needed to go past the minimal impact — for Afflictions, for example, the 1st degree of the effect. I’ve only ever seen a 3rd degree level suffered once, and even then only after a convoluted set of circumstances and when using a Cumulative and Progressive build for the Affliction effect in question.

As an example, in the last session of an online game I ran, over the course of a single combat involving half-a-dozen heroes fighting the combined forces of the Power Corps and Factor Four, Affliction effects (some of which were even cap-shifted via Power Attack) were used a total of twenty-six times during that single fight (yeah, I was keeping track), with exactly one of those times succeeding in getting even the first degree of effect as a result of the die rolls (it was scored against Granite by one of the PCs, for those of you who are curious) — and this is pretty much exactly in line with my earlier experiences.]


Cap-Shifting Advantages: No matter how many advantages or maneuvers you have for shifting your combat numbers around (such as All-out Attack and Power Attack), you can only have one set of numbers shifted at a time; this is to say, these advantages or maneuvers cannot be used in conjunction with one another.


Why?

Well, after considerable experience, I have come to the conclusion that All-out Attack and Power Attack are simply too easily abused for PL-skewing results when used in combination (getting potentially a 2-PL jump for damage).

And they will be used in combination by bricks/tanks.

Every.

Single.

Round.

Of.

Combat.

Singly, however, they’re fine. I like consistency, so the restriction applies to all versions of such advantages. Put another way, each shift represents a significant narrative description of what the character is doing and multiple options used simultaneously waters down all of those narrative elements.



Check-Required Flaw: This flaw is worth a flat 1-pt instead of 1-pt per rank.

Why?

In all my years of running this game (and supers games in general), I have never encountered a PC built with this Flaw (or its “cousins” in other systems) where the PC did not also have high enough skill ratings to make the flaw meaningless in play (other than, of course, eating up the additional time to roll the check they can’t fail).


Impervious and Penetrating Modifiers: Each of these modifiers has two functions. The first function is that they cancel each other out rank-for-rank. A Penetrating 5 Attack cancels out 5 ranks of Impervious on the applicable Defense, for example, leaving the that Attack and that Defense to resolve against one another as normal.

A Defense with Impervious ranks when used to resist a non-Penetrating attack will ignore attacks of ranks equal to or less than half the Impervious ranks. For example, Impervious Toughness 10 will ignore attacks from Damage 5 or less sources. By ignore, it means the Resistance check is considered to have automatically been successful.

An Attack with Penetrating ranks when used against a non-Impervious Defense will subtract the ranks of Penetrating from the Defense ranks before the Resistance check is rolled. For example, a Penetrating Ranged Damage 6 effect used against Toughness 10 with no ranks of Impervious makes the Toughness effectively only Toughness 4 when resisting that attack that round.


Example Time — Our invulnerable Paragon (Impervious Toughness 12) is fighting a small army of aliens with laser guns (Penetrating Ranged Damage 4) and the super-strong alien warlord with his mighty plasma axe (with Strength added, Penetrating Damage 14). The lasers cancel out 4 ranks of Impervious on the Paragon’s Toughness (Toughness 12, Impervious 8 for this comparison now), but Impervious 8 is still enough to ignore 4 ranks of damage. Our hero walks through the alien horde smashing them aside with little effort as their attacks are useless against him. Then, the warlord connects with the plasma axe. Penetrating 14 completely cancels out all 12 ranks of Impervious on the Paragon’s Toughness, meaning our comparison is now Damage 14 (Penetrating 2) against Toughness 12. Our hero has an effective Toughness of 10 (12 - 2 = 10 for the remaining ranks of Penetrating) for this Toughness check. Looks like that axe is gonna leave a scar.

Why?

RAW, these two are, well, pretty useless. Also, they’re the poster children among players and GMs (again, in my experience) for things that provoke the reaction, “Seriously — Why did I pay points for these!?!?”

While I could kludge together a similar mechanic for the Penetrating effect with linked Weaken or a massive linked Continuous, Progressive Affliction, this just seems simpler and less cluttered. Also, it makes BOTH modifiers valuable.



Regeneration: The Regeneration power at its base works against Lethal damage. Lethal damage heals one condition rank per day normally (Time rank 14, and yes this is still FAR more cinematic than reality). Regeneration 10 means you heal a Lethal damage rank every 2 minutes and Regeneration 14 does it 1 per round. Regeneration that works against nonlethal damage instead of lethal is a +1 cost per rank Extra, and Regeneration that works against both kinds of damage simultaneously is another +1 cost per rank Extra.


Why?

If there is a single power in this system that is under-costed for its impact on the game, it’s regeneration. I’ve lost count of fights wherein the cycle is character goes down/next round character is back up healed/character goes down/next round character is back up healed/character goes down and so on and so on, ad infinitum ad nauseum. They weeble and they wobble but they don’t stay down (if you’re old like me you get the reference) and they do it at a relatively cheap cost. I’ve had frustrated players start using very unheroic tactics just to make sure their opponent actually stays down for more than a round after rendering the guy incapacitated. Re-costing and tweaking the usage of the power has worked wonders for its use in my games.


Power Stunting: Instead of having to use Extra Effort to power stunt, a player may attempt to make a stunt check as part of whatever action the stunted power requires). A stunt check uses as its bonus the rank of the base power being stunted off of and rolled against a DC of (10 + rank of power to be stunted). Note that the stunted power still has to obey all the normal mechanical and PL limits of a stunted power (such as being limited to the same number of points as the power being stunted off of), it’s just that the player might be able to get around having to cough up a hero point or soak a fatigue level to exploit their creativity. Note also, if this roll fails, the player can still immediately fall back on the old Extra Effort option for the power stunt.

Why?

I like power stunts and creative applications of them at the table. I want to encourage players to attempt them under the right circumstance without just indulging GM fiat all the time to waive the risks and costs. In my experience, hairy combats tend to make players nervous about burning hero points for anything other than defensive or TGH-based rerolls. This rule adds an option for players who might show more creativity if they weren’t risk-averse. Yes, it was inspired by the similar stunting rule in Icons (What can I say? Steve has good ideas.)
That Sullivan Guy
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

Minor Stuff/Clarifications

The Benefit Advantage – A lot of story awards may come in the form of increasing existing forms of the Benefit advantage for characters or adding entirely new forms (A new Benefit (Status), for example). These story awards will not cost actual PP.

Called Shots — No “called shot” advantage or new maneuver is needed. Calling a shot is done for one of two reasons, either [1] aiming at a vulnerable spot to increase damage (or add an effect) or [2] aiming at an unprotected spot to bypass protection. The former is dealt with using Power Attack (maneuver or advantage), and the latter only applies if a target has a flaw or quirk built into their protection effect; in the latter such case, the situation is handled by applying the Cover rules and exploiting the flaw/quirk.

Equipment vs. Device — If an item exceeds the numbers listed for comparable equipment presented in the core rules by more than +1 (more than a doubling in what it’s supposed to represent in effectiveness), it has to be built as a Device rather than with the Equipment advantage. For example, a Heavy Pistol built as +5 Ranged Damage instead of +4 is fine (special ammo, or whatever), but a Heavy Pistol built as +8 Ranged Damage cannot be treated as equipment and must be paid for as a Device instead.

Fearless —This Advantage is not used. See Lionhearted under New Advantages. For our purposes, immunity to all fear-effects (be they interaction skills, mental powers, pheromones, or whatever) is actually a 5-pt Immunity effect.

Group Equipment/HQ/Vehicles — PCs don’t pay points for these if they are team-related. Instead, PCs take one rank in Benefit (Member of [Team Name]). Individual versions external to the team still cost, of course. However, a PC who wants his own vehicles or HQ separate from the team DOES pay points for those (e.g., Batman in the DCAU with access to the Watchtower and Javelin, but also the Batcave and a storage bay full of different Bat-[vehicle]s.

Immunity from Own Powers — This is NOT an assumed aspect of the setting for clothing and carried items. If a character has a power that is destructive to their own wardrobe (Flame Aura or Giant Form, for a couple of examples), they need Device: Feature 1 —Uniform doesn’t suffer damage from uses of the wearer’s powers, or at the very least a power-based feature of the same effect (getting it through a device is more easily explained away in a superhero setting). The Precise modifier on powers will keep characters from destroying carried objects (or harming carried passengers) if such is also an obvious risk from their powers.

Reputation/Renown — Whenever it becomes important to determine if a character is recognized, a knowledge check is used. A suitable Expertise skill is the base, but a default Intellect check can substitute, and related skills (such as Technology for an Expertise: Robotics skill) can be rolled for an “Aid” bonus. The base DC is 20 for a public figure and DC 30 for a more specialized field. Generally, a “nobody” won’t get any roll to be known – you’ve either met/heard of them or you haven’t. If a character has the Renown advantage or the Fame complication then that character is automatically treated as a public figure for the purposes of this check (i.e., DC 20) regardless of their background and the Fame complication gives a circumstance bonus of +10 to the roll. Remember that the former can act as a positive modifier to some social skill tests (+2 for one rank, +5 for two), while the latter always causes problems and garners no bonuses.

Skill Specialization — there are no house rules for a “Skill Specialization” advantage, per se. If the background of a character shows specialized focus (like someone with the Vehicle skill who always uses nothing other than a motorcycle and whose background includes a motorcycle-racing career), when such a focus comes into play, the character receives a +2 Circumstance Bonus. A Hero Point spent raises that to a +5 for a single application. A similar bonus applies to uses of the Connected advantage when applied to a group or NPC that has previously been established in play or character backstory as having closer than normal relationships to the PC.

Throwing/Knockback – A non-aerodynamic object applies a minor circumstance penalty of -2 to the distance rank involved. If the object is struggling or moving (as many people will do when picked up to be thrown or while being hit and knocked back), this increases to a major circumstance penalty of -5 to the distance rank involved. So, no, to answer a question posed snarkily on the forums, Batman (or any human strength character for that matter) can’t actually throw a gangster the better part of half way down a football field; he can, however, still pick up the guy and toss that sucker around 3 to 6 feet without any undue strain, which is mighty impressive for an unaugmented human. Wonder Girl on the other hand, for one example, can do the whole mugger equals football thing quite well however (9 Str – 2 Mass – 5 Penalty = Distance Rank 2 = 120 feet. Ouch.)

***
That Sullivan Guy
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

New Advantages

The following are added to the available Advantages from the Hero’s Handbook.

Defensive Throw
If you take the defend action (see Defend in the Action & Adventure chapter) and successfully defend against a close attack, you can make a trip attempt against the attacker immediately as a reaction. The trip attempt is carried out normally, including the attacker getting the opportunity to trip you.

Expert Feint
You can use your attack bonus in place of Deception to feint and trick in combat (see the Deception skill description). Your opponent opposes the attempt with their attack bonus or Insight (whichever is better)

Grappling Block
If you take the defend action (see Defend in the Action & Adventure chapter) and successfully defend against a close attack, you can make a grab attempt against the attacker immediately as a reaction. The grab attempt is carried out normally, including you gaining the hindered and vulnerable conditions while grabbing and holding your attacker.

Improved Escape
You have a +2 circumstance bonus on checks to escape grabs. If you have 2 ranks in this advantage, your circumstance bonus increases to +5.

Lionhearted
You have a +2 circumstance bonus on Will checks representing the use of courage or determination. If you have 2 ranks in this advantage, your circumstance bonus increases to +5.

Renown
When you are using interaction skills in a situation where fame or a well-known and highly-respected reputation works in your favor, you have a +2 circumstance bonus to the skill check involved. If you have 2 ranks in this advantage, your circumstance bonus increases to +5. This bonus does not count as part of your regular skill bonus in terms of the series power level, but also does not apply to people or situations which (in the GM’s opinion) would not be influenced by your fame or reputation.

Scary
You’re particularly frightening or imposing, giving you a +2 circumstance bonus on Intimidation checks when facing opponents that can be influenced by appearance or physical displays. With a second rank, you are Terrifying, giving you a +5 circumstance bonus. This bonus does not count as part of your regular skill bonus in terms of the series power level, but also does not apply to people or situations which (in the GM’s opinion) would not be influenced by your appearance or physical displays.

***
That Sullivan Guy
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

What the Numbers Mean

Attributes

-5
Crippling: You are pretty much completely incapable in respect to this attribute. You are wheelchair or bedbound, you have the mental capacity of an infant if you have any at all, or you have the personal charm and charisma of a rock — an offensive rock. The fact that you are considered to even have this attribute is probably generosity on the part of the observer.


-4 to -3
Detrimental: Your underdeveloped degree with this ability puts you at significant and obvious disadvantage just trying to exist in modern society. You are sickly or frail to the point of probably needing medical attention, or you are seriously mentally/socially challenged to the point where a standard education or job is almost impossible for you to achieve.


-2
Noticeable Deficiency: You’re far enough below average that people around you can’t help but notice. You are struggling for breath after climbing just a few flights of stairs, or you have long-term learning disorders, or you’re utterly oblivious, or are just generally forgettable or unlikable.


-1
Below Average: You are somewhat worse than an average person in this aspect, but not obviously so unless put to a specific test. You’re a couch potato or a little puny or clumsy or just a little slow or a bit of a wallflower, or so on.


0
Average: A healthy, normal human adult (which is the basis for all attribute comparisons)


1
Above Average: You are somewhat better than an average person in this aspect, but not obviously so unless put to a specific test. You got picked more for team games, did a little better in school without trying much harder, or just tend to make friends a little easier than Joe Average.


2
Noticeable Capability: You’re far enough above average that people around you almost always notice your gifts. Among most circles of friends, you’re referred to as “the smart one” or “the strong one;” or you dominate backyard basketball courts and so on.


3
Impressive: This ability exceeds normal run-of-the-mill humanity well enough to always elicit comments unless dealing with others around you who are equally accomplished or are themselves truly exceptional. At this level you are a professional athlete or a noted Ph.D. in some field or the equivalent.


4
Exceptional: Barring extraordinary circumstances, you stand out above pretty much anyone you’re ever likely to meet. You’re an Olympic level athlete or paradigm-changing intellect. This is also arguably the cap for realistic abilities.


5 to 7
Cinematic: A level of human ability usually only seen on TV, in Movies, or placed in other works of fiction. This is an idealized level of ability that straddles the line between what humans can, can’t, or at least shouldn’t be able to do. You have Wuxia-scale agility, or monstrous strength (and likely the size to go with it), or intellectual capacity to rival Mycroft Holmes, or the personal charisma to command attention among even world and military leaders at a glance. When applied to strength, this is probably best considered at least borderline superhuman (particularly when the user is less than monstrous in size).


8 to 9
Low Superhuman: You are capable of acts with this attribute that exceed recognized human limits.


10 to 14
Superhuman: Your ability is obviously superhuman and probably one of the central elements of your superhuman career (i.e., a brick or a brainiac).


15 to 20
High Superhuman: Even among other superhumans your performance with this attribute stands out — you are among the strongest or fastest or smartest of those who already dwarf human capability. This is the upper limit for mortal (or even semi-mortal) beings and above it you are a cosmic force (i.e., generally PL X).



*****


Skills (Total Bonus)

< 0
This indicates someone who is not just unskilled but utterly incompetent in a given area, perhaps even dangerously so.


+0
You likely have no training or background or even any natural talent for the task or expectation at hand.


+1 to +4
You have a basic level of proficiency; you’re a student or beginner or dabbler.


+5 to +8
This is the range of a standard and respectable professional, someone who could make a decent living based on this skill if applicable as such.


+9 to +12
You are an expert, notable in your field or just generally quite impressive in any context where you are seen using this skill.


+13 to +16
You are a master in your field, humbling even to experts and you’re probably the measure against which others aspire. Arguably, after +14 or so you are also entering the realm of pulp heroes and cinematic displays only.


+17 or more
This is a legendary level of ability, straddling the border between what most people would even consider possible and arguably constituting superhuman capability.
That Sullivan Guy
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

DON’Ts

DON’T:
Create characters that use Variable or Summon powers extensively. This is for the simple expediency of bookkeeping; that is to say, the bookkeeping players who create such characters usually come to the table expecting the GM to take care of for them instead of actually doing the work themselves.

No.

Not going to happen.

Those options require considerably more “overhead” than others and if the player isn’t prepared (say, having 30-40 pages of animal stats modified for your point adjustments for a PC who can shape change into animals), every time it comes that player’s turn the game can come to an immediate stop and an extended pause while that player rebuilds his character trait by trait, or shifts points around meticulously or so on, often with rulebook in hand as they need to look stuff up. It aggravates the GM and it definitely aggravates the other players. Don’t be that player.


DON’T:
Create a character based around a lone wolf concept or who will inevitably cause problems with the other player characters. For example, while Wolverine, Deadpool, Batman and so on may all be interesting to read, they are aggravating as hell as PCs and will not only provoke other players into leaving the game, but will also annoy the GM with their incessant self-separation from the other PCs and “Me! Me! Me! I’m the SHINIEST!” attention demands. This is a group game. Don’t be that player.


DON’T:
Create a psycho who thinks Trenchcoat + BFG = character. The Punisher was never intended to be a hero, regardless of fanboy palpitations, and if the only thing separating your character from the bad guys is that yours is a PC and they are NPCs, there will be issues. Neither Captain Bodycount nor Ripslasher the Mighty Spleen Remover will be allowed at the table. Don’t be that player.

***
In all frankness, the last two here are on the off-chance we have new players joining. Long-timers are already aware of these caveats and whole-heartedly agree with them.
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Ken
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by Ken »

Awesome.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
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Tattooedman
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by Tattooedman »

Interesting ideas, thanks for sharing them!
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:45 pm
LOl- "The Tattooed Man"? What kind of ABSOLUTE DILDO would refer to himself as "The Tattooed Man" :P!?!
Shock
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by Shock »

I'm curious how well your changes to Penetrating worked in practice. It seems like a PL breaking end-run the way you have it written.
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squirrelly-sama
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by squirrelly-sama »

Shock wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:21 am I'm curious how well your changes to Penetrating worked in practice. It seems like a PL breaking end-run the way you have it written.
Yeah, pretty much. It is extremely broken like that. Honestly I usually just keep Penetrating the same but make it a single flat extra. As in you only ever need one rank of it. if an effect is weak enough to get stopped by impervious it's probably not going to do any damage
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squirrelly-sama
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by squirrelly-sama »

That Sullivan Guy wrote: Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:08 pm Immunity from Own Powers — This is NOT an assumed aspect of the setting for clothing and carried items. If a character has a power that is destructive to their own wardrobe (Flame Aura or Giant Form, for a couple of examples), they need Device: Feature 1 —Uniform doesn’t suffer damage from uses of the wearer’s powers, or at the very least a power-based feature of the same effect (getting it through a device is more easily explained away in a superhero setting). The Precise modifier on powers will keep characters from destroying carried objects (or harming carried passengers) if such is also an obvious risk from their powers.
This seems needlessly spiteful. I could understand it not working on objects you don't normally carry but everything in the hero's typical kit should basically be considered to not be harmed by normal power use. Reaction powers are already stupidly expensive for very little actual benefit and this is just adding on to it just because. No reason, just "because".

Defensive Throw
A good idea, always weird that this wasn't just included with the standard advantages.

Scary is a bit unbalanced since it pretty much just applies to EVERY intimidation check. Provided you aren't doing it over the phone or something.
That Sullivan Guy
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

Shock wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:21 am I'm curious how well your changes to Penetrating worked in practice. It seems like a PL breaking end-run the way you have it written.
We've been using it for about 4-5 years now, and at my table it works fine. Luckily, at my table there are no munchkins. A few optimizers, yes, but no munchkins*.

A few points (all of which relate to MY table and MY players):

<> When using NPCs from the published material, where maxed ranks of Impervious were given out like candy, it hasn't really made a lot of difference in play results. Some NPCs got more dangerous, some got more fragile, but most stayed right where they were in ye old play use curve.

<> I make players justify buying either modifier. Unlike the the trend modeled by the published examples, I don't think either modifier should be common as dirt and I enforce this viewpoint as GM. Knowing this, my players often buy less than max ranks of Impervious (when they do buy Impervious), and several never buy ranks in Penetrating at all for their characters, unless the SFX of their power sets make it fit naturally or they have some other pressing build reason. I show the same logic and reasonability in building NPCs. For example, the players very quickly realized Impervious WILL and FORT were going to be even rarer than Impervious TGH, but after discussing this as a group, they decided to leave that Pandora's box alone and not risk any kind of "arms race" with the NPCs.

<> The players characters are very careful when they use Penetrating attacks. Generally, they reserve those for constructs, vehicles, and barriers, only using them against living targets that have otherwise proven highly dangerous and highly durable. In many ways this has reminded me of the way that (old-school heroic) PCs in CHAMPIONS traded out using RKAs instead of EBs depending on the situation and the target. Also, NPCs that indiscriminately throw around Penetrating attacks, particularly lethal ones, immediately become priority one for the player characters to take off the board, which they traditionally do with great effectiveness and teamwork. Woe betide the target that gets several of the PCs (or all of them) coordinating their attacks on one poor chump.

*Optimizers vs Munchkins:

An Optimizer will try to make the most effective version possible of their character for the role the group expects them to fill. A Brick PC will be the best Brick the player can manage to build within the rules because he knows the other players are counting on him to fill that role and are building their characters accordingly. The player doesn't want to "fail" his teammate in respect to the expectations laid upon him.

A Munchkin squeezes the last iota of effectiveness out of every single rule, potential loophole, synergy, or mechanical gray area. The Munchkin views the other players as competition and the GM as the enemy in a contest he will NOT lose and doesn't care if anybody else at the table has fun or not as long as he "wins" (whatever that means in the context of the Munchkin's thinking). If the other people, especially the GM, didn't want abusive possibilities in a system weaponized and used against the rest of the characters and adventure framework, the GM and other players shouldn't have chosen to use a system susceptible to abuse. As far as the Munchkin is concerned, anyone with a different play expectation is a moron and only gets what's coming to them if they don't exploit the same "weaknesses" the Munchkin does.
Last edited by That Sullivan Guy on Wed Feb 03, 2021 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
That Sullivan Guy
Posts: 131
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Re: That Sullivan Guy's House Rules for M&M

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

squirrelly-sama wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 5:23 am
Shock wrote: Wed Feb 03, 2021 1:21 am I'm curious how well your changes to Penetrating worked in practice. It seems like a PL breaking end-run the way you have it written.
Yeah, pretty much. It is extremely broken like that. Honestly I usually just keep Penetrating the same but make it a single flat extra. As in you only ever need one rank of it. if an effect is weak enough to get stopped by impervious it's probably not going to do any damage
Ah, the joys of text presented without external emotional or tonal markers and how that opens statements to offensive interpretation regardless of original intent.

Okay.

[Bemused Expression and Conversational Tone]

First, I don't remember seeing you at my table these past few years observing our play. Can you explain where in the room you were hiding?

"Broken" is an observation specific to the observer and the observer's play experiences. Its only neutral application is if there are math errors in how the basic system works or doesn't work, or logical inconsistencies in the same. Everything after that is opinion. Now I'm going to have flashbacks to countless nerds attacking or defending countless points in multiple editions of multiple games as decried by one nerd or another as "broken."

Let's put this another way. If I were to apply your house rule for Penetrating at my table, the uproar would be, "Wait a damn minute. I have to spend how many points to get basic effectiveness out of Impervious as is and you bypass that with A SINGLE POINT?" And they'd be right (at least in our viewpoint with RAW). This would become especially egregious in lower powered vigilante campaigns where "cape-killer" attacks would be as common as Saturday Night Specials.

A word of advice? I took care to present my House Rules as singular to our table and our experiences as a group (multiple statements to that effect, in fact). You might want to respond in kind (sort of like Shock's more evenhanded statement of curiosity) rather than assuming the role of Arbiter-on-High for the validity of rule-ishness, particular since some of your own excursions onto the field are open to the same rebuke.


[/Bemused Expression and Conversational Tone]

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