What has Trump done wrong?

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RainOnTheSun
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by RainOnTheSun »

mrdent12 wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:41 pm Where I live, my vote wouldn't have mattered anyway, so I didn't bother to vote. This current election cycle, I am still undecided. Trying to persuade some of Trumps most ardent supporters against him is a futile exercise I don't even waste time on. Same with supporters of other candidates as well. Just like last election though, once the parties decide their candidates my vote won't matter either way.
I hate that this is a part of American politics. I don't see any benefit to the electoral college at all.
FuzzyBoots
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by FuzzyBoots »

RainOnTheSun wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:36 pm
mrdent12 wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:41 pm Where I live, my vote wouldn't have mattered anyway, so I didn't bother to vote. This current election cycle, I am still undecided. Trying to persuade some of Trumps most ardent supporters against him is a futile exercise I don't even waste time on. Same with supporters of other candidates as well. Just like last election though, once the parties decide their candidates my vote won't matter either way.
I hate that this is a part of American politics. I don't see any benefit to the electoral college at all.
It's the "all or nothing" aspect that does the real damage. Apportioning votes by both population and a base statehood value does have value in protecting less dense states from being dominated by New York and California.
RainOnTheSun
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by RainOnTheSun »

States don't vote. People vote. People's votes should have equal value.
mrdent12
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by mrdent12 »

The electoral college if you like it or hate it depends alot on your view of how America should be(states are back bone with federal limited vs federal more important states more limited) and also how much your vote matters number wise when compared to somewhere else. I think someone in North Dakota has 3 times the electoral college vote vs places like California. Could be wrong on that number.
Shock
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Shock »

RainOnTheSun wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:36 pm
mrdent12 wrote: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:41 pm Where I live, my vote wouldn't have mattered anyway, so I didn't bother to vote. This current election cycle, I am still undecided. Trying to persuade some of Trumps most ardent supporters against him is a futile exercise I don't even waste time on. Same with supporters of other candidates as well. Just like last election though, once the parties decide their candidates my vote won't matter either way.
I hate that this is a part of American politics. I don't see any benefit to the electoral college at all.
The electoral college prevents large portions of American geography from being completely ignored in national elections. It made more sense back when the system was developed but it's not clear that a system based purely on popular vote is more equitable.
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Poodle
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Poodle »

The fundamental problem for most election systems around the world is that most parties don't have a long enough term to be realistic about what they can or can't accomplish. By this I mean, who can make a major reform to anything in only 3 years for better or worse.
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mrdent12
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by mrdent12 »

I can see the argument Fuzzy made in protecting geographical interests. It's part of the reason the electoral college was put in place. That and preventing a demogue from taking over by winning over the majority. On the other side though, the Senate is a pretty good protection for smaller states. Just look at Obama's second term. As people start concentrating on cities again it will get even more difficult for Democrats to retake the Senate.

As for getting major stuff done, it doesn't happen often in America either lately. The only time major reform happens is when one party gets total control in the U S and that is limited by procedural rules.
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Ken
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Ken »

The not getting major stuff done is a feature, not a bug. The only way to get something major done is to have broad support across a large swath of America, not just to members of one party.

We have the Electoral College because states do vote. There's a reason why each state has equal representation in the Senate. The needs of a person in Montana are not the same as the needs of someone living in Hawaii or New York or Kansas.

The President is the chief executive officer for the entire Union. The President does not preside solely over New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, San Francisco, Phoenix, Dallas, and Philadelphia.
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RainOnTheSun
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by RainOnTheSun »

We have the electoral college because slave owners wanted to use slaves to increase their voting power. Three-fifths compromise. It really is that simple.
FuzzyBoots
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by FuzzyBoots »

RainOnTheSun wrote: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:41 am We have the electoral college because slave owners wanted to use slaves to increase their voting power. Three-fifths compromise. It really is that simple.
The electoral college is influenced by population, which at one point included the 3/5 compromise, same as House of Representative numbers but that's ignoring its earlier history. Which, as noted, was basically originally to provide a veto if the US populace voted for the wrong guy. Honestly, the representation numbers fail in part because we stopped establishing an upper number of constituents. It used to be that they tried to ensure that a congressman never served more than they could reasonably deal . Now, congressman might be serving a few million people.
mrdent12
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by mrdent12 »

The slowness is certainly a good feature. Helps cooler heads prevail most of the time or stuff too crazy to get killed. It has its downsides of course, but so does everything.

I don't know of any way that is really fair to everyone to govern or for how to vote for national leaders that makes everyone happy. While I personally don't like the winner take all system of each state and not very happy about the electoral college in modern times, its better than having the situation places without safe guards have. A simple majority(slightly over 50% of the people) shouldn't be able to control everyone else. We've seen that story play out in other countries.

I don't recall who mentioned it in this thread, but switching to a proportional assignment of electors for each candidate might be a good middle ground. Each state still has a say, but it's split up by how the people of the state voted. The full mechanics of course would need to be sorted. A system like that might even get candidates to visit more states. No one really campaigns proper in places like California or Oklahoma for the presidency. Its a forgone conclusion who will get those electoral votes for the most part. Things change of course, but only a dozen or less states get most of the attention.

On the slavery topic, its true slavery has influenced a lot of the original mechanisms put in place. Some have since been changed by amendments while others have not. To reduce everything down to slavery tends to wash over some of the nuance. States like Rhode Island, that wasn't a slave state as best I recall, advocated for an electoral college like system.
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Beleriphon
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Beleriphon »

As an outsider I can tell you what Donald Trump did wrong: he treats politics as a zero sum game where he's the only winner, and combines it with the personality of a rabid wolverine.

Socially, most of his foreign policies regarding trade are actually stuff most liberals would support. But they can't support Donald Trump because he's a giant douche bag that makes other countries look at the USA and wonder what the hell the population was doing when they elected him.

The biggest issue is that Donald Trump does what any Republican president would be doing for the most part, but since he's such an asshole a lot of people have a hard time reconciling his behaviour. Plus, I think he's pandering to his base, who should logically be against him since you know billionaire business magnate from New York who previous to the election didn't care about middle America at all. I mean I'm surprised nobody ran "Don't vote for Donald, he'll buy your factory and sell it for parts."

Other issues, he's a racist, will happily use racist language and ideas to promote himself (Mexicans are rapists and murderers?) and seems entirely unapologetic about anything. His non-condemnation of white supremacists is a problematic, if we're being charitable. He's a misogynistic, narcissistic asshat who in any other time period would never have been elected.

The whole MAGA bit also has some very, how to say, unpleasant undertones. Like what makes American not great now? Middle America not have the same jobs that existed in the 70s and 80s? Was America not great because a black guy was president (lets be honest, Donald Trumpt is a birther, that would never have happened with a white guy who had a foreign born parent)?

Plus, you know using the office of the President of personal electoral gain (the current impeachment process and all that), allegedly anyways.

To put in in context for Canadians, imagine Don Cherry was the prime minister and acted the same way he always does.
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saint_matthew
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by saint_matthew »

@Beleriphon: Except literally not a single one of those things happened in the real world. They exist solely in the fevered imagination of the people who have spent the last 3 years trying to justify their derangement over the fact that someone else won an election they thought they had in the bag.

For example, where is it exactly you think that Trump said Mexicans are rapists and murderers?
Last edited by saint_matthew on Thu Dec 19, 2019 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RainOnTheSun
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by RainOnTheSun »

We're talking about this again? Well, he used charity money for personal gain. Paid a two million dollar fine for it. That's pretty darn wrong.
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Sidious
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Re: What has Trump done wrong?

Post by Sidious »

Staying the hell out of this as I'm sure I'll end up insulting someones parentage.
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