Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
User avatar
Davies
Posts: 5082
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:37 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Tigra! Mantis! Captain Mar-Vell! Carol Danvers!)

Post by Davies »

Yeah, that's a bewildering retcon. I think it was an attempt to integrate some of Movie Carol's background into the comics, with Marie taking the place of its female Mar-Vell, but ... that was clever* and I don't understand the mentality of someone who thinks this is an improvement.

* And gave Carol more agency in her own origin than this.
"I'm sorry. I love you. I'm not sorry I love you."
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Joe Danvers

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

JOE DANVERS
Created By:
Chris Claremont & Jim Mooney
First Appearance: Ms. Marvel #13 (Jan. 1978)
Role: Disapproving Dad

-Joe Danvers was introduced as Carol's worried, disapproving dad, having passed Carol over in favor of his eldest son, sending the boy to college instead of his daughter. It would later be retconned in that Joe was abusive to the children, becoming an alcoholic after his son died at war. Joe was later attacked by the villain Steeplejack, and saved by Ms. Marvel, being embarrassed and emasculated by the situation. Eventually, Joe died of lung cancer, with Carol & Marie Danvers coming to terms over his deathbed.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Tigra! Mantis! Captain Mar-Vell! Carol Danvers!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Davies wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:10 am Yeah, that's a bewildering retcon. I think it was an attempt to integrate some of Movie Carol's background into the comics, with Marie taking the place of its female Mar-Vell, but ... that was clever* and I don't understand the mentality of someone who thinks this is an improvement.

* And gave Carol more agency in her own origin than this.
It's one of those bizarre "Putting my STAMP on this character!" origin retcons, it sounds like. Because now the author can say "I"m the one who did _____ to _____!".

But yeah, like... this is supposed to make Carol's powers less dependent on a male superhero... but also having him be the catalyst for her to find them, just not in the same way?
User avatar
Goldar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Marie Danvers

Post by Goldar »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:17 am Image

MARIE DANVERS (aka Captain Mari-Ell)
Created By:
Chris Claremont & Jim Mooney
First Appearance: Ms. Marvel #13 (Jan. 1978)
Role: Generic Mom-Turned-Space Warrior

-Marie Danvers was originally a forgotten "Hero's Mom" character, appearing in the 13th issue of Ms. Marvel. She would often ignore the confrontational nature of her husband's relationship with their daughter, Carol, and did nothing when Joe Danvers sent his eldest son, Stevie, to college over Carol. Steve enlisted in the army instead, and was killed in Vietnam/Whatever War Is Closest, devastating the family and sending Joe into alcoholism to cope. Joe responded negatively to being saved from the second Steeplejack by Ms. Marvel, but Marie, who saw through her daughter's disguise, asked Carol not to judge him too harshly. Marie was next seen in Kurt Busiek's run in Avengers, with a now-alcoholic Carol living with her. Joe later died of lung cancer, and mother & daughter argued over his deathbed over Carol not visiting them in years- they reconciled just before Joe passed.

-However... EVERYTHING YOU KNOW WAS WRONG!! Yes, my Least-Favorite Comic Trope rears its ugly head, as it turns out that Marie Danvers was actually a Captain in the Kree Empire named Mari-Ell, and that means that Carol is Half-Kree! She was sent to Earth to spy or whatever, but crash-landed and was saved by a widower with two children named Joe, who soon discovered that she had super-powers. The two loved each other, and Mari-Ell turned off her tracker so she could live as a human for good. Thus, Carol is revealed to be Mari-Ell's only true child. She was then promptly killed by a Kree warrior's spear, dying in front of Carol.

-This is... whatever. Unnecessary and kinda dumb, and seemingly one there to give Carol some extra tragedy and give her an origin not so tied to the male hero she replaced, Because Feminism. I'd care more if her origin story wasn't so dumb and forgettable anyhow, but now Mar-Vell's presence only "charged" the Kree Powers that were already there.
Say what now....??
User avatar
Goldar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Marie Danvers

Post by Goldar »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:17 am Image

MARIE DANVERS (aka Captain Mari-Ell)
Created By:
Chris Claremont & Jim Mooney
First Appearance: Ms. Marvel #13 (Jan. 1978)
Role: Generic Mom-Turned-Space Warrior

-Marie Danvers was originally a forgotten "Hero's Mom" character, appearing in the 13th issue of Ms. Marvel. She would often ignore the confrontational nature of her husband's relationship with their daughter, Carol, and did nothing when Joe Danvers sent his eldest son, Stevie, to college over Carol. Steve enlisted in the army instead, and was killed in Vietnam/Whatever War Is Closest, devastating the family and sending Joe into alcoholism to cope. Joe responded negatively to being saved from the second Steeplejack by Ms. Marvel, but Marie, who saw through her daughter's disguise, asked Carol not to judge him too harshly. Marie was next seen in Kurt Busiek's run in Avengers, with a now-alcoholic Carol living with her. Joe later died of lung cancer, and mother & daughter argued over his deathbed over Carol not visiting them in years- they reconciled just before Joe passed.

-However... EVERYTHING YOU KNOW WAS WRONG!! Yes, my Least-Favorite Comic Trope rears its ugly head, as it turns out that Marie Danvers was actually a Captain in the Kree Empire named Mari-Ell, and that means that Carol is Half-Kree! She was sent to Earth to spy or whatever, but crash-landed and was saved by a widower with two children named Joe, who soon discovered that she had super-powers. The two loved each other, and Mari-Ell turned off her tracker so she could live as a human for good. Thus, Carol is revealed to be Mari-Ell's only true child. She was then promptly killed by a Kree warrior's spear, dying in front of Carol.

-This is... whatever. Unnecessary and kinda dumb, and seemingly one there to give Carol some extra tragedy and give her an origin not so tied to the male hero she replaced, Because Feminism. I'd care more if her origin story wasn't so dumb and forgettable anyhow, but now Mar-Vell's presence only "charged" the Kree Powers that were already there.
Say what now....??

(The system was so shocked it double-posted! Sorry)
User avatar
drkrash
Posts: 594
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:23 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Tigra! Mantis! Captain Mar-Vell! Carol Danvers!)

Post by drkrash »

It was stupid and unnecessary. It was a good example of modern Marvel storytelling where they hire a non-comic writer to do a sort of "vanity story" that only happens to have some powers and punching because they have to.

The only thing I'll say is that the final result - that the psyche-magnetron only activated her Kree DNA rather than modify her human DNA - doesn't really matter that much. They've done some OK things with the idea that "Captain Marvel is an alien - yuck" and I preferred the old origin, but they've done worse.

(Honestly, for me it was more annoying that after 30-ish years, mom is revealed to be a badass warrior. Surely there would have been some moment in Carol's life where that would have come out before?)
Shadow Ops - cinematic espionage action RPG - Kickstarter live now!
User avatar
M4C8
Posts: 759
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:17 pm
Location: South-East England

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Tigra! Mantis! Captain Mar-Vell! Carol Danvers!)

Post by M4C8 »

Yep, another utterly stupid completely unnecessary retcon.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Tigra! Mantis! Captain Mar-Vell! Carol Danvers!)

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:21 am
Davies wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:10 am Yeah, that's a bewildering retcon. I think it was an attempt to integrate some of Movie Carol's background into the comics, with Marie taking the place of its female Mar-Vell, but ... that was clever* and I don't understand the mentality of someone who thinks this is an improvement.

* And gave Carol more agency in her own origin than this.
It's one of those bizarre "Putting my STAMP on this character!" origin retcons, it sounds like. Because now the author can say "I"m the one who did _____ to _____!".

But yeah, like... this is supposed to make Carol's powers less dependent on a male superhero... but also having him be the catalyst for her to find them, just not in the same way?
Yeah, this very much felt like a "I'm going to put my stamp on this character" moment combined with some flavor of "Carol getting her powers from a man is a problem". There's a literal line in the story about how Carol's powers "Didn't come from someone else or from some accident, they were inside of you all along". Which reads like "you were special all along". Despite Mar-Vell still being the one to trigger her powers?

The movie tried to do something similar with Carol destroying the Light Speed Engine, and at least there it's something heroic done to fulfill the wishes of her dead mentor in the face of said mentor's murderer. But the film still did Mar-Vell wrong with the gender swap and the complete removal of anything that made the character unique. But it would have gone against the idea the movie was presenting where Nick Fury was the first male character to actually be somewhat helpful/supportive of Carol in her entire life.

The only way the female Mar-Vell could have saved that would have been to make her Mar-Vell's mother, and the actual Mar-Vell is a member of the Kree military, but someone pushing for change. But that's not likely to happen either.

I kind of miss the nuance Claremont gave Carol's dad. He was an old fashioned guy in the 70s with a Feminist daughter, during a time when there were legitimate social barriers that needed to be broken down. Her dad wasn't treated as a bad person, her was hard working, provided for his family, but he was also stuborn and set in his ways. He was someone Carol was originally slowly changing over time, and after her encounter with Rogue and Carol's time as Binary, he was shown being supportive of her and doing his best to help her.

This got retconned into him being abusive towards his wife and daughter completely out of nowhere. Instead of being someone who needed to realize that he'd unintentionally played favorites with his children and that his old fashioned beliefs were hurting his relationship with his daughter and working to change over time, he was made into a worse person who died to give Carol and her mom some closure. To use the Gail Simone term that I don't believe is a real thing, they decided to Fridge him and his personality to give Carol some supposed character growth.

As for Carol herself, I liked her Pre-Captain Marvel days and haven't really liked her since, and her current book is a mess, IMO. I do think the Black outfit is her overall best look, but I'm kind of unsure about the lightning bolt. There's nothing really about her powers linked to lightning, and it looks more like a Storm outfit with it, just missing a cape. I might Photoshop one over her black outfits to have the Mar-Vell star symbol and see how it looks.

If she was going to take the Captain Marvel name (which honestly isn't a bad move, as Carol has the most right to that name, and she could work as "Marvel's Wonder Woman), then she should probably be wearing something closer to her Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes outfit. Or like I mentioned in another thread, give her the Nega-Bands to make her a full on top-tier heroine, and mess with her current color scheme to make her actually honor Mar-Vell's legacy.

Image

Or give her the Avengers: EMH look, just with the Nega-Bands and some red instead of the exposed thighs.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
Shock
Posts: 2978
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:27 pm
Location: Connecticut USA

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Tigra! Mantis! Captain Mar-Vell! Carol Danvers!)

Post by Shock »

Ares wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:20 pm

Image

Or give her the Avengers: EMH look, just with the Nega-Bands and some red instead of the exposed thighs.
I kinda like that costume. I think she needs to keep the sash. It's something pretty much unique to her that makes her stand out more than a cape would.
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Tigra! Mantis! Captain Mar-Vell! Carol Danvers!)

Post by Ares »

Shock wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:04 pm
Ares wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:20 pm

Image

Or give her the Avengers: EMH look, just with the Nega-Bands and some red instead of the exposed thighs.
I kinda like that costume. I think she needs to keep the sash. It's something pretty much unique to her that makes her stand out more than a cape would.
It also keeps the blue in that area that the undies used to for Mar-Vell, but in a different way.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
User avatar
Goldar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:10 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Tigra! Mantis! Captain Mar-Vell! Carol Danvers!)

Post by Goldar »

Ares wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:15 pm
Shock wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:04 pm
Ares wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:20 pm

Image

Or give her the Avengers: EMH look, just with the Nega-Bands and some red instead of the exposed thighs.
I kinda like that costume. I think she needs to keep the sash. It's something pretty much unique to her that makes her stand out more than a cape would.
It also keeps the blue in that area that the undies used to for Mar-Vell, but in a different way.
Yes, because Carol wears lady panties.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Sapper

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

SAPPER (Osinga Riplss)
Created By:
Chris Claremont & Jim Mooney
First Appearance: Ms. Marvel #13 (Jan. 1978)
Role: Random One-Off Threat, Alien With a Grudge
PL 10 (109)
STRENGTH
6 STAMINA 6 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 6 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Expertise (Science) 4 (+10)
Technology 8 (+14)

Advantages:
Inventor, Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
"Cyborg"
Protection 4 [4]

"Absorption"
Weaken Energy Sources 12 (Feats: Reach 4) (Flaws: Limited to Technology) [10]
Immunity 10 (Energy Damage) (Flaws: Limited to Half-Effect) [5]
Damage 10 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Cone) (Flaws: Limited to Amount of Energy Drained) [10]

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Absorption +6 (+12 Weaken, DC 22)
Energy Burst +10 Area (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +6 (DC 16), Toughness +10, Fortitude +6, Will +4

Complications:
Motivation (Revenge)- Sapper wishes to destroy Ultimo for the destruction of the Rajaki race.

Total: Abilities: 62 / Skills: 12--6 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 29 / Defenses: 7 (109)

-Sapper is a bizarre one-off opponent who appears in Ms. Marvel, alongside his ally, Golden-Blade. The two drained a U.S. military base of energy, causing Ms. Marvel to fight them until knocking Sapper into a jet, which exploded. Now full of energy, Sapper renews the attack, but a damaged Golden-Blade suggests they must not risk their mission, and the two flee. Literally no explanation for these two was ever given by Claremont, despite having ten more issues in the series to do so.

-Naturally, Kurt Busiek was the only person to remember these two weirdos, giving them an origin story. Sapper is a Rajak, and his world was destroyed 150 years ago by the killer robot Ultimo. Attempting revenge, he and his ship were shot down, leaving him as the sole survivor of his people. Turning an injured human (crushed by the ship) into his ally Golden-Blade, he again attempted revenge on Ultimo. Busiek had a now-drunk Carol Danvers attack both of them, beating them with Iron Man's help. Sapper & Golden-Blade later attacked a Stark/Fujikawa ship that was, unbeknownst to them, empowered by Ultimo, and Sapper's sapping of the ship actually caused Ultimo to break free! Finally, Iron Man hacked Ultimo while the cyborg duo protected the civilians, and the day was saved- Sapper and his ship flew into space, grateful to Iron Man.

-Sapper isn't much of a combatant beyond his ability to withstand a lot of punishment (a jet explodes next to him, and he's just fine) and drain things of power. He can't drain Ultimo all the way, but he's dangerous to anything below that.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ken
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: Sycalb, Madiganistan

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Tigra! Mantis! Captain Mar-Vell! Carol Danvers!)

Post by Ken »

Ken wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:22 am When they designed her current costume, they should have swapped the blue and red colours. It would be closer to the traditional "Mar-Vell Family palette" AND it would make her look less like that other Danvers heroine.
Ares wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:20 pm Image
Now that's what I was talking about.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Golden-Blade

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

GOLDEN-BLADE (Zacharaiah Seavey)
Created By:
Chris Claremont & Jim Mooney
First Appearance: Ms. Marvel #13 (Jan. 1978)
Role: Random One-Off Threat, C-3PO Look-Alike
PL 8 (96)
STRENGTH
6 STAMINA 6 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Expertise (Fur-Trapping) 4 (+4)
Expertise (History) 4 (+4)
Insight 3 (+4)
Technology 3 (+3)

Advantages:
Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
"Cyborg"
Protection 2 [2]
Flight 5 (60 mph) [10]
"Golden Blades" Blast 8 [16]

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Golden Blades +8 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +8, Fortitude +6, Will +4

Complications:
Relationship (Sapper)- Owing his life to Sapper, Golden-Blade works with him to gather energy and destroy Ultimo.

Total: Abilities: 52 / Skills: 14--7 / Advantages: 4 / Powers: 28 / Defenses: 5 (96)

-Given an old-timey speaking voice, Golden-Blade was Sapper's polite co-worker in their Ms. Marvel debut, exhibiting an arm that can be taken off with no harm coming to him. Kurt Busiek would retcon him as an English fur trapper who was maimed when Sapper's ship crashed 150 years prior- Sapper rebuilt the man into a cyborg, who became his partner.

-More or less a random one-off who is a mere pest to major-league super-heroes, Golden-Blade can do minor damage to Ultimo, but Iron Man's Repulsor Field stopped him once.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
KorokoMystia
Posts: 1402
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Tigra! Mantis! Captain Mar-Vell! Carol Danvers!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

..Yeah, almost as soon as I saw Golden-Blade and his backstory, I was like "that's just a more badass C-3PO". Which is probably their intent, given that they even made him English.
Post Reply