Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Hawkeye

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

HAWKEYE (Clint Barton, aka Goliath, Ronin II)
Created By:
Stan Lee & Don Heck
First Appearance: Tales of Suspense #57 (Sept. 1964)
Role: The Snarky Hero, The Archer, The Hot-Headed Hero
Group Affiliations: The Avengers, The Defenders, The Thunderbolts, The Great Lakes Avengers
Avengers Grade: A-Level
PL 10 (174)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 13 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Acrobatics 7 (+12)
Athletics 5 (+8)
Deception 6 (+8)
Expertise (Current Events) 4 (+5)
Expertise (Carny Lore/Streetwise) 4 (+5)
Insight 4 (+6)
Investigation 4 (+6)
Perception 9 (+11)
Persuasion 4 (+6)
Ranged Combat (Bow) 3 (+15)
Sleight of Hand 2 (+6)
Stealth 4 (+9)
Technology 4 (+5)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Agile Feint, Defensive Attack, Evasion, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Bow) 3, Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Smash, Inspire, Power Attack, Precise Attack 2 (Ranged/Cover & Concealment), Ranged Attack 8, Seize Initiative, Set-Up, Teamwork, Ultimate Aim

Powers:
"Archer's Bow" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [29]
"Tear Gas Arrow" Affliction 8 (Fort; Dazed & Vision Impaired/Stunned & Disabled/Incapacitated & Unaware) (Extras: Extra Condition, Ranged, Area- 30ft. Burst) (32)
  • AE: "Standard Arrow" Blast 5 (Feats: Variable- Blunt, Electrical or Sharp) (Extras: Multiattack) (16)
  • AE: "Titanium Arrow" Blast 5 (Extras: Penetrating 5) (15)
  • AE: "Bola Arrow" Snare 7 (Inaccurate -1) (20)
  • AE: "Boomerang Arrow" Blast 5 (Feats: Split 2, Homing, Ricochet 2) (15)
  • AE: "Explosive Arrow" Blast 9 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (27)
  • AE: "Sonic Arrow" Dazzle Hearing 9 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (27)
  • AE: "Flash Arrow" Dazzle Visuals 9 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (27)
  • AE: "Gas Arrow" Sleep 8 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (24)
  • AE: "Smoke Arrow" Obscure Visuals 2 (Extras: Attack, Area- 30ft. Burst) (12)
  • AE: "Taser Arrow" Affliction 7 (Strength; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Ranged) (Inaccurate -1) (13)
  • AE: "Acid Arrow" Blast 5 Linked to Weaken Toughness 7 (Extras: Ranged, Affects Objects) (Inaccurate -1) (30)
  • AE: "E.M.P. Arrow" Nullify Technology 5 (Extras: Sustained +2) (20)
  • AE: "Cable Arrow" Movement 1 (Swinging) (2)
  • AE: "Vibranium Arrow" Nullify Blunt Impacts 7 (Extras: Ranged) (Inaccurate -1) (13)
"Rocket Arrow" Adds 2 Ranks of Extended Range to Any Arrow (Inaccurate -1) (1)
-- (47 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +12 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Standard & Boomerang Arrows +15 (+5 Ranged Damage, DC 20)
Dazzle & Gas Arrows +8 Area (+8 Affliction, DC 18)
Tear Gas Arrow +8 Area (+8 Affliction, DC 18)
Taser & Bolo Arrows +12 (+7 Ranged Affliction, DC 17)
Acid Arrow +13 (+5 Ranged Damage & +7 Ranged Weaken, DC 19 & 17)
Initiative +9

Defenses:
Dodge +14 (DC 24), Parry +13 (DC 23), Toughness +4, Fortitude +7, Will +8

Complications:
Responsibility (A Giant Mess)- Clint may be an excellent superhero, but his personal life is a disaster. He can't hold down a relationship to save his life, frequently offends even close friends, and has little sense of responsibility.
Disabled (Partially-Deaf)- Hawkeye is 80% deaf in both ears without hearing aids (thanks to using a Sonic Arrow against Crossfire) , which can be a problem if his aids are deactivated. This disappeared after he was resurrected post-Onslaught.
Relationship ("Mockingbird" Bobbi Morse- Ex-Wife)- Hawkeye & Mockingbird were married, then divorced, then she died and it turned out years later she was a Skrull, and now they're kinda... it's complicated.
Relationship (Many Others)- Clint has had a ton of other love interests- he lusted after The Black Widow for a long time, then switched to The Scarlet Witch- both women ultimately didn't care for him. He almost hooked up with the chaotically-evil Moonstone when she was semi-close to reforming on The Thunderbolts. He briefly dated Jessica "Spider-Woman" Drew, but she caught him with another girl.
Responsibility (Punk Made Good)- Hawkeye was a no-good punk at first, but made good with The Avengers, coming to respect Captain America after an argumentative relationship with him. This self-improvement drives Clint, and he often seeks out new, unproven heroes to help make the same change.
Relationship (The Swordsman & Trick Shot)- Hawkeye has come to blows with both of his former mentors. Swordsman died a hero, while Trick Shot became a friend after suffering from cancer, but soon went back to douchebaggery.
Relationship (Barney Barton- Brother)- Clint's brother was thought-dead, but then turned into a supervillain (a new Trickshot), then reconciled with Clint.
Enemy (Crossfire)- The gun-toting villain has a mad-on for Clint, trying to kill him or maim him numerous times.
Power Loss (Skills & Toughness)- In his most-recent series, Clint is like PL 8 and totally gets One-Punch-KO'd on a daily basis. It's the most Street Level thing ever.

Total: Abilities: 68 / Skills: 62--31 / Advantages: 28 / Powers: 29 / Defenses: 18 (174)

Hawkeye = The Greatest:
-If you held a gun to my head and made me select the Greatest Avenger Ever, I actually think I would have to go with Clint Barton- the true soul of the team. Sure, I think Captain America is a better CHARACTER, but Clint to me represents the iconic "Marvel Hero" as well as anyone- a man riddled with psychological problems and personality issues, prone to being an argumentative smartass, and with a love life more complicated than a Jane Austen character- and thus fits in perfectly with the squad. He can fit in as "That Guy" (ie. the rebellious one who just HAS TO cause problems in every issue), the leader (and because he's not as good as Cap, it can lead to more personality conflicts and better improvisation), the one who causes romantic issues (Scarlet Witch, Black Widow, Jessica Drew & Mockingbird are among his love interests), and more.

Hawkeye's History:
-Clint Barton is your classic comic book character in that he's an orphan with a past full of betrayal and trickery- he was betrayed by his mentor the Swordsman, and was thought of as a criminal, bringing him into conflict with Iron Man. Later on, he chased after Natasha Romanoff, falling for her and committing crimes on her behalf. Eventually, he became a "straight shooter" (his words), joining the Avengers along with Quicksilver & The Scarlet Witch, forming a trio of ex-villains to join Cap's new team. He rebelled against Cap's leadership, setting off a long run of smart-assery that would stick around for years- eventually shaping him into the kind of smart-alecky, "Team Joker" type of character, though he'd become less rebellious with time, and more flippant- his tendency was to "Spider-Man" his way into taunting bad guys.

-For a short while, he actually dropped the "Hawkeye" moniker and became Goliath, using a Growth Serum after he lost his bow at a critical time. I guess they were either trying to shake things up or give him a power upgrade in the late '60s, but this has mostly been left by the wayside. He switched back after the Kree/Skrull War, but left the team after Wanda hooked up with The Vision. Away from The Avengers, he kind of drifted around aimlessly, frequently causing a ruckus in other books (Daredevil, etc.), and even joined The Defenders for a spell. He starts the first of a long stretch of saving the entire Avengers squad of more-powerful heroes when The Collector defeats the entire team with gadgets, and Hawkeye disarms him. After a short while farting around again (appearing with the Hulk, Daredevil- in a fight over the Black Widow- and Dr. Strange), he finally gets his own Limited Series, gains a recurring villain in Crossfire, and marries Mockingbird (whom he'd just barely met), setting off the new period in his life. He rountinely had the lead story in the '80s book Solo Avengers, which consisted of two half-stories- proof that he could only SORT OF maintain a solo book- something else had to be added.

The West Coast Avengers, Thunderbolts, and Death:
-Hawkeye founds The West Coast Avengers, becoming the leader of a new offshoot book (written by Steve Englehart). Along the way, he meets his old mentor Trick Shot yet again. After Bobbi lets a villain who raped her fall to his death, horrifying Clint, they split for a while (Hawk later kind of becomes "just a guy" in the WCA books I've read, instead of the leader), and he disappears from major books for a while after she's killed during the war between Mephisto & Satannish. He returns just in time to die against Onslaught, and when that whole deal was done and the heroes resurrected, he joined Kurt Busiek's Thunderbolts to try and help the ex-villains reform. It actually worked for a while, and he led them against GRAVITON a couple times, as he whipped the team into authentic heroes, sticking his neck out for them, and even impressing the really-evil Moonstone into reforming. It was a neat look at Clint finally coming full circle, as he plays Captain America to a team of ex-cons, giving them guidance and teamwork. Along the way, he becomes a central figure in JLA/Avengers, engaging in his old Marvel role of "The guy with the worst powers saves the day the most" trope.

-Unfortunately... the Post-Busiek world of Hawkeye wasn't grand. He hooked up with the Wasp in Chuck Austen's Avengers arc, and was then killed off during Disassembled, doing a suicide attack after his burning quiver of explosive arrows doomed him. Losing the guy who to many was SUCH an iconic Avenger was offensive to many fans (despite the fact that Clint hadn't been on the main team in a major way for decades). It would be a few years, but Hawkeye was resurrected a second time by the Scarlet Witch's playing with reailty during House of M. However, he reappears in an odd role, acting as the renegade hero "Ronin", dressed up in Echo's ninja guise. Along the way, he makes friends with Kate Bishop, the Hawkeye of the Young Avengers, and gives her permission to use his name.

Clint Returns As Ronin:
-Eventually, Clint is reunited with his ex-wife, who returns after it's revealed that the Mockingbird who died was a Skrull in disguise. This is, unfortunately, more Bendis stuff, as he & Bobbi kind of tease getting back together but don't, Clint decides to kill Norman Osborn when he takes over the superhuman community of the U.S. (this from the guy who used to be the MOST anti-killing of the Avengers), and more. He returns to the Avengers when Captain America comes back to life, and joins a variety of teams in the "9,000 Avengers books" era. At one point, his brother turned up alive again, and the two battled in an archery contest for Baron Zemo's amusement- in the end, Barney lost and agreed to help save Clint's sight, which had been faltering after an injury.

The Matt Fraction Book & Later:
-Semi-recently (ugh that was 2013 I'm old), he was the central character in Matt Fraction & David Aja's FANTASTIC (and funny) Hawkeye solo book, which was eternally-plagued by lateness (and has been cancelled), but was some of the most inventive stuff going- very much like their The Immortal Iron Fist book (Clint & Danny basically look IDENTICAL, which is remarked upon as a running gag). It portrays the Street-Level/Spy antics of an unshaven, frequently-injured Clint Barton, while he makes a mess of his personal life and annoys Kate Bishop, who clearly seems to be crushing on him but freaks out over his personal failings. Fraction gets a lot of enjoyment out of the fact people are rarely ever seen in their superhero gear- it's usually street clothes for everyone but Kate, making the book like like a classic Indie Snob book while also making cute asides to Marvel's history. The only downsides are the fact that major superheroes struggle against common thugs and mooks constantly, and Clint's personal life (which really only consisted of him being divorced) was suddenly exaggerated into him being "the guy who makes bad personal choices", like sleeping with a mobster's wife and sleeping around on Jessica Drew without even considering that it would hurt her feelings. But then they used his own face as a censor for his wang, and I was won over all over again.

-But seriously, the book is one of Marvel's best of the past decade, easily. The classic gags with the Eastern European guys in Adidas gear never stopped working, many background villains looked menacing, and there were so many great character bits. Kate was great as this snotty, spoiled, kind of annoying teen heroine, who as soon as she got off on her own (the whole third trade is just about her- it's not as good, but has some great art with funny facial expressions, and Kate makes a great befuddled protagonist in over her head all the time) made just as much of a mess as Clint, largely by never thinking things through and just pestering everyone imaginable. There's great bits like Jessica slapping Clint for sleeping around as a gag, but then when it settles into a normal conversation ("It's not that you felt compelled to SLEEP AROUND- it's that I would bet everything I have that you never ONCE considered that sleeping around my HURT ME"), he stops her and says "I get that you're mad, but you're not allowed to do that anymore". Kate's frustration with Clint just kinda being self-destructive is evident, as she kinda teases him over it but you can tell it really hurts her to see it. But I adore they way they always call each other "Hawkeye" whenever things get serious.

-Subsequent years were a bit... off. During Civil War II, Clint executed Bruce Banner after a vision was shown of the Hulk killing many superheroes, telling everyone that Bruce had made him promise to do so if the Hulk ever went too far. This split the superhero community a bit, and turned Clint into a murderer. As "Woke Marvel" became more and more of a thing, he got a push doing a "Woke Book" where he helps the underprivileged from community-based problems alongside a parallel universe version of Red Wolf. This... does not last long. Clint later falls back in love with the Black Widow, but witnesses her death during Secret Empire, breaking his heart. He finds a Widow clone who wants to be left by her lonesome, then joins a new West Coast Avengers look doomed to an early cancellation (that uses the same "Reality Show" gimmick that ruined the New Warriors). So his past ten years is kind of a mess of "appearing in random books", like so many other heroes. And all along, the movie Avengers used him... as a grim, frowning guy who almost never snarks. Making him one of the only Marvel Cinematic superheroes to not crack wise on a constant basis, which feels eternally wrong somehow- and the change is probably only because he's not a "Main Character".

Why Hawkeye is the Best:
-So yeah, Clint is AWESOME. Though sadly a bit unable to keep a solo book going, this makes him an ideal candidate for membership of the Avengers, Avengers West Coast, or as the main star of the Anthology-title Solo Avengers. And despite this inability to hold a solo book, the fan outcry was IMMENSE when they tried to kill him off (his book had JUST been cancelled at #8). He's your CLASSIC snarky hero, a likeably-unlikeable fighter who's cocky in a funny way, and there are VERY few characters that perform better in a team- he plays off of every other personality in the squad, whether it be the straight-laced humorless Cap, the serious epic Thor, the goofier snarky Spider-Man (unsurprisingly they argue a lot since they're fulfilling the same role), the Dark Action Girl Mockingbird, and more. Of course, I find it hilarious that the Marvel Cinematic Universe makes IRON MAN the Snarky Comedy Guy, leaving Clint to be a gruff, rarely-speaking bad-ass.

-Plus he gets some of the greatest World-Saving Feats in comics. I daresay he's responsible for more universe-altering wins than any other hero- he stopped Immortus during The Celestial Madonna, saved the Avengers from The Collector during The Korvac Saga, fired the last shot in JLA/Avengers saving both the Marvel & DC Universes from Krona's mad scheme, and, in one of the single greatest scenes in the history of comics books, saved the ENTIRE UNIVERSE from The Grandmaster's plan to conquer it by playing on the Elder's addiction to games of skill and chance. When Hawkeye & Cap faced certain death at the hands of The Grandmaster's Legion of Unliving (now made up of all the Avengers who'd died in the course of the story), Clint simply spoke up and challenged him to a game of "Draw Straws" for total power. When the Elder laughed him off, Clint EGGED HIM ON, suggesting that right then, THAT would be the ultimate "Game" to play- the entire universe for picking which of his two arrows had a cap on the end. When The Grandmaster loses, it distracts him long enough for Death herself to break free from his containment field and stop him, saving everyone. When Cap congratulates Hawkeye on his luck, Hawkeye laughs and reveals that HE CHEATED, leaving the caps off BOTH arrows, horrifying straight-laced Steve Rogers.

Hawkeye's Skills & Abilities:
-As befitting a major Avenger, Hawkeye is PL 11-12-level pricey, but skilled like a PL 10. Hawkeye is INCREDIBILY accurate with his arrows- +15 is enough to hit just about anyone, especially since he has Accurate Attack and the ability to go Multiattack with his Standard Arrows. He's +13 in melee as well, being a generally amazing fighter just below those DEFINED by their melee capability. His multitude of arrows lets him get off a variety of effects, making him among the most fun Avengers to stat up. The multitude of effects includes tons of Affliction-based effects (Taser Stun, Snare, Tear Gas, Dazzles, etc.), an Explosion, a tech-nullifier, a Boomerang that Homes in on a target, a Titanium Arrow with more power (an Adamantium Arrow can do more damage- but is a Hero Point-costing one-time effect), and Acid. Hawkeye's not one for Power Gamers, but he is definitely the most-fun guy on the roster to play as.

-Hawkeye can drop the Bow & Arrow and become a lame Melee Fighter with his Ronin gear- gaining a Katana, Nunchuku and other stuff. He's still PL 10 (+13 attack and a +6 Sword), but less so. And really, that was a lame temporary change when EVERYONE just wanted Marvel's Awesome Archer back.

Image
Image

GOLIATH II (Clint Barton)
Created By:
Stan Lee & Don Heck
First Appearance: Tales of Suspense #57 (Sept. 1964)
Role: The Snarky Hero, The Growing Guy, The Hot-Headed Hero
Group Affiliations: The Avengers, The Defenders
Avengers Grade: A-Level
PL 10 (136)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 11 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Acrobatics 5 (+10)
Athletics 4 (+7)
Deception 6 (+8)
Expertise (Current Events) 3 (+4)
Expertise (Carny Lore/Streetwise) 4 (+5)
Insight 2 (+4)
Investigation 2 (+4)
Perception 7 (+9)
Ranged Combat (Bow) 3 (+13)
Sleight of Hand 2 (+6)
Stealth 4 (+9)
Technology 4 (+5)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Agile Feint, Defensive Attack, Defensive Roll, Evasion, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Bow) 3, Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Precise Attack (Ranged/Cover), Ranged Attack 6, Set-Up, Teamwork, Ultimate Aim

Powers:
"Pym Particles"
Growth 8 (Str & Sta +8, +8 Mass, +4 Intimidation, -4 Dodge/Parry, +2 Speed) -- (24 feet) [16]
-2 Fighting [-4]

Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Largest Size +9 (+11 Damage, DC 26)
Initiative +9

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (DC 21), Parry +11 (DC 21), Toughness +4 (+5 D.Roll), Fortitude +7, Will +6
"Large Size" Dodge +9 (DC 19), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +11, Fortitude +13, Will +6

Complications:
Disabled (Partially-Deaf)- Hawkeye is 80% deaf in both ears without hearing aids, which can be a problem if he's in the dark and his aids are deactivated.
Responsibility (Punk Made Good)- Hawkeye was a no-good punk at first, but made good with The Avengers, coming to respect Captain America after an argumentative relationship with him. This self-improvement drives Clint, and he often seeks out new, unproven heroes to help make the same change.

Total: Abilities: 64 / Skills: 48--24 / Advantages: 23 / Powers: 12 / Defenses: 13 (136)

-Hawkeye had a pretty big run in the '60s as the new Goliath, for reasons I'm unsure of. He's basically a mini-Pym at this point, being a better fighter, but not as large as Pym would later get. He's less Skilled overall, and a worse fighter, but is still PL 10. He would likely be only PL 9 with his Bow & Arrow at this point, though.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Synapse! Avenger X! Voyager! Hawkeye Builds!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Behold, Clint's Greatest Moment:

Image
Image
Image

Also, the single greatest Will Save roll in the history of comics:

Image
Image
Spectrum
Posts: 3128
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:08 pm

Re: Voyager (Grandmaster’s Daughter)

Post by Spectrum »

Jabroniville wrote: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:57 pm VOYAGER II (Va Nee Gast, aka Valerie Vector)
Finally, Voyager fesses up- she is the daughter of The Grandmaster, who is playing one big game against his brother, The Challenger- an Elder whom he'd usurped millennia ago.


If an Elder of the Universe has family, which goes against their 'last of their kind' membership requirement... are they still an Elder of the Universe?
We rise from the ashes so that new legends can be born.
User avatar
Woodclaw
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:05 pm
Location: Como, Italy

Re: Hawkeye

Post by Woodclaw »

Jabroniville wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:59 am Why Hawkeye is the Best:
-So yeah, Clint is AWESOME. Though sadly a bit unable to keep a solo book going, this makes him an ideal candidate for membership of the Avengers, Avengers West Coast, or as the main star of the Anthology-title Solo Avengers. And despite this inability to hold a solo book, the fan outcry was IMMENSE when they tried to kill him off (his book had JUST been cancelled at #8). He's your CLASSIC snarky hero, a likeably-unlikeable fighter who's cocky in a funny way, and there are VERY few characters that perform better in a team- he plays off of every other personality in the squad, whether it be the straight-laced humorless Cap, the serious epic Thor, the goofier snarky Spider-Man (unsurprisingly they argue a lot since they're fulfilling the same role), the Dark Action Girl Mockingbird, and more. Of course, I find it hilarious that the Marvel Cinematic Universe makes IRON MAN the Snarky Comedy Guy, leaving Clint to be a gruff, rarely-speaking bad-ass.
I think that what makes Clint work as a team-based character is that he's pretty much the perfect foil for almost any other member of the Avengers. Usually, this is most evident with Cap, but everyone from Vision to Thor had a "Hawkeye moment", when Clint got under their skin so much it was embarrassing... let's not mention Iron Man or Black Widow, okay?
A lot on it rides on the fact that Clint is such a fundamentally flawed character, who failed time and again, but never let that define him nor stop him. Many superheroes are shaped by one or two pivotal tragedies (uncle Ben's death, Tony Stark's alcoholism, etc.), Hawkeye pretty much screws up once per week, but keeps going. I'm not surprised that he became such a significant mentor figure for so many other heroes, despite (or rather because) his personal history with authority figures: an abusive father and several failed mentors.
Jabroniville wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:59 am-Plus he gets some of the greatest World-Saving Feats in comics. I daresay he's responsible for more universe-altering wins than any other hero- he stopped Immortus during The Celestial Madonna, saved the Avengers from The Collector during The Korvac Saga, fired the last shot in JLA/Avengers saving both the Marvel & DC Universes from Krona's mad scheme, and, in one of the single greatest scenes in the history of comics books, saved the ENTIRE UNIVERSE from The Grandmaster's plan to conquer it by playing on the Elder's addiction to games of skill and chance. When Hawkeye & Cap faced certain death at the hands of The Grandmaster's Legion of Unliving (now made up of all the Avengers who'd died in the course of the story), Clint simply spoke up and challenged him to a game of "Draw Straws" for total power. When the Elder laughed him off, Clint EGGED HIM ON, suggesting that right then, THAT would be the ultimate "Game" to play- the entire universe for picking which of his two arrows had a cap on the end. When The Grandmaster loses, it distracts him long enough for Death herself to break free from his containment field and stop him, saving everyone. When Cap congratulates Hawkeye on his luck, Hawkeye laughs and reveals that HE CHEATED, leaving the caps off BOTH arrows, horrifying straight-laced Steve Rogers.
A friend of mine, who only knew the character via the movies, asked me why I think Hawkeye even deserves a spot on the Avengers?
My answer was very simple: because he cheats. For better or worse, most of the Avengers are very straightforward characters. Heavy hitters like Thor, Vision, Iron Man or Sersi don't need to cheat, they just power through most opponents. Other characters, like Cap or Wanda are often written as noble souls, who prefer to play things straight. While Hawkeye is hardly the only Avenger with a checkered past, he's the only one that routinely takes advantage of it.
"You're right. Sorry. Holy shit," I breathed, "heckhounds.”

WareHouse W (main build thread for M&M)
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Synapse! Avenger X! Voyager! Hawkeye Builds!)

Post by Ares »

One reason I'll probably never be able to enjoy the Fraction Hawkeye series is that it basically flanderizes Hawkeye to the point that it's become sort of the default take on the character. To the point that even now people are talking about how often Hawkeye screws up.

Here's the thing: Hawkeye's cockiness would bite him in the butt, he would antagonize his teammates, he would make mistakes, jump to conclusions, but he actually mellowed out quite a bit and became much more competent during the mid-to-late 70s, and for most of the 80s and 90s, Hawkeye was basically a dependable rock when it came to the Avengers. He was someone who wasn't the perfect leader Cap was, but was a highly competent one all the same, to the point that it was often down to him or the Wasp as to who was the next best pick. And while he never lost his cocky attitude, a lot of it was psychological warfare to psyche out his opponents, and he could back up how good he was thanks to his skill and experienced.

Hawkeye MADE jokes. He wasn't A joke. But for the longest time he's basically been treated as a sad sack loser who can't keep his life together, when he really was just someone with immensely strong ties to the superhuman community, who had all of his friendships there, etc. People might not have always liked Hawkeye, especially if he was in a mood, but everyone respected him, and most folks admired him. He was never shown as the kind of person who would cheat on someone else, he was a very devoted husband and it took an extreme circumstance to sabotage what he had. And even that he managed to fix until it was hit hard with the retcon hammer multiple times.

Clint is certainly more flawed than a lot of his superhero peers, but until recently that still meant he had his life way more together than the average person. But it seems like a lot of writers today want to turn superheroes into literal train wrecks.

Myself, I love Clint. To me he's THE comic book archer, even moreso than Green Arrow, despite Ollie coming out first. He's very much in the vein of a classic swashbuckling hero, and we could frankly use more guys like him in his classic portrayal. And for Gods sake, get him back in his costume.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
User avatar
Ken
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: Sycalb, Madiganistan

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Synapse! Avenger X! Voyager! Hawkeye Builds!)

Post by Ken »

Ares wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:54 pm Myself, I love Clint. To me he's THE comic book archer, even moreso than Green Arrow, despite Ollie coming out first.
Centaur Comics' the Arrow predates them both.

Green Arrow and Hawkeye have a long, long history of influencing each other.

Green Arrow came first by about twenty years, but was largely just 'Batman with a bow and arrow'. But if GA didn't exist, I doubt Hawkeye would have been created.

Hawkeye went from reluctant villain to reformed hero. He had a thing for a dark clad lady with a 'Black _______' codename wearing fishnets (early Natasha). He joined the premiere superteam of his world, and became the loudmouth on the team who disagreed with everyone.

Then in the late 1960s, Green Arrow grew a non-Batman personality, started having romantic feelings for a dark clad lady with a 'Black _______' codename wearing fishnets. And while he already belonged to the premiere superteam of his world, he became the loudmouth on the team who disagreed with everyone.

This goes on. Mark Gruenwald said in an interview about the Squadron Supreme, "I'm not going to do much with the Golden Archer and Lady Lark relationship, because I already did it with Hawkeye and Mockingbird in the Hawkeye limited series." Of course, Golden Archer and Lady Lark were the SS stand-ins for Green Arrow and Black Canary. So, yeah Hawkeye got Mockingbird because Ollie had Dinah.

And of course, they've both been flanderised. Clint, as explained above. Ollie, in that they gave him his ward, Roy's, commitment problems and cranked it up to 11. Seriously, for nearly two decades, Ollie had eyes only for Dinah. Then he had one weird with tryst with Shado while Ollie and Dinah are on the outs, and because of that Ollie is an unrepentant womanising player.

[Conversely, while Ollie was with Dinah, Roy Harper was dating Donna Troy (the heroine so hot she eventually married an author expy), and he still felt the need to hit on any woman he met. He fathered Lian Harper while Ollie and Dinah were still together. But you can't spell 'Arsenal' without 'arse'.]

So, yeah, Ollie and Clint have had a really weird symbiotic influence on each other over the decades.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
User avatar
catsi563
Posts: 4127
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:29 pm
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Synapse! Avenger X! Voyager! Hawkeye Builds!)

Post by catsi563 »

Dr. Silverback has wryly observed that this is like trying to teach lolcats about Shakespeare

Showdown at the Litterbox

Catsi stories
User avatar
catsi563
Posts: 4127
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:29 pm
Location: Dark Side of the Moon
Contact:

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Synapse! Avenger X! Voyager! Hawkeye Builds!)

Post by catsi563 »

Ive always beena huge fan of hawkeye especially when he and Mock hooked up in his limited series, the two of them clicked both as characters and in story as a lot of fun their banter was perfect and got better as they went to WCA.

it s why so much of what happened later just peed me off royally. the character assassination required to turn those two against each other like that was insane
Dr. Silverback has wryly observed that this is like trying to teach lolcats about Shakespeare

Showdown at the Litterbox

Catsi stories
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Synapse! Avenger X! Voyager! Hawkeye Builds!)

Post by Ares »

Ken wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:51 pm
Ares wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:54 pm Myself, I love Clint. To me he's THE comic book archer, even moreso than Green Arrow, despite Ollie coming out first.
Centaur Comics' the Arrow predates them both.

Green Arrow and Hawkeye have a long, long history of influencing each other.

Green Arrow came first by about twenty years, but was largely just 'Batman with a bow and arrow'. But if GA didn't exist, I doubt Hawkeye would have been created.

Hawkeye went from reluctant villain to reformed hero. He had a thing for a dark clad lady with a 'Black _______' codename wearing fishnets (early Natasha). He joined the premiere superteam of his world, and became the loudmouth on the team who disagreed with everyone.

Then in the late 1960s, Green Arrow grew a non-Batman personality, started having romantic feelings for a dark clad lady with a 'Black _______' codename wearing fishnets. And while he already belonged to the premiere superteam of his world, he became the loudmouth on the team who disagreed with everyone.

This goes on. Mark Gruenwald said in an interview about the Squadron Supreme, "I'm not going to do much with the Golden Archer and Lady Lark relationship, because I already did it with Hawkeye and Mockingbird in the Hawkeye limited series." Of course, Golden Archer and Lady Lark were the SS stand-ins for Green Arrow and Black Canary. So, yeah Hawkeye got Mockingbird because Ollie had Dinah.

And of course, they've both been flanderised. Clint, as explained above. Ollie, in that they gave him his ward, Roy's, commitment problems and cranked it up to 11. Seriously, for nearly two decades, Ollie had eyes only for Dinah. Then he had one weird with tryst with Shado while Ollie and Dinah are on the outs, and because of that Ollie is an unrepentant womanising player.

[Conversely, while Ollie was with Dinah, Roy Harper was dating Donna Troy (the heroine so hot she eventually married an author expy), and he still felt the need to hit on any woman he met. He fathered Lian Harper while Ollie and Dinah were still together. But you can't spell 'Arsenal' without 'arse'.]

So, yeah, Ollie and Clint have had a really weird symbiotic influence on each other over the decades.
Yeah, it's a shame how certain elements are just kind of accepted as fact when they either didn't exist or were one off incidents. Ollie was never shown as a philanderer, but after Shado drugs him and then ... basically rapes him, it became this idea that Ollie cheated on Dinah and was thus a serial womanizer and cheater. Roy was the one who couldn't keep it in his pants, wound up becoming a single dad because of it, and that actually led to him having character development and becoming more responsible.

So yeah, a lot little things that need to be retconned to fix things for Ollie and Clint. That Mockingbird mini-series just needs to be shoved into a wood chipper and forgotten about. I also think Kate needs her own identity the same way Miles does (I've really come around to liking Miles as The Scarlet Spider), so maybe give Kate the Trickshot name or have her go back to her original gear set where she had the gear of various Avengers, such as the Swordsman, Mockingbird, Hawkeye, etc. and give her a name based off of that, like Arsenal or Weapon Master.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
User avatar
KorokoMystia
Posts: 1402
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:42 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Synapse! Avenger X! Voyager! Hawkeye Builds!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

I still found it kinda odd how Clint's mentor was Trick Shot, while his brother Barney was Trickshot (no space). Maybe if Kate got the name, it could be Trick-Shot with a hypen.
User avatar
M4C8
Posts: 759
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:17 pm
Location: South-East England

Re: Jab’s Builds! (Synapse! Avenger X! Voyager! Hawkeye Builds!)

Post by M4C8 »

Ares wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:57 pm
Ken wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:51 pm
Ares wrote: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:54 pm Myself, I love Clint. To me he's THE comic book archer, even moreso than Green Arrow, despite Ollie coming out first.
Centaur Comics' the Arrow predates them both.

Green Arrow and Hawkeye have a long, long history of influencing each other.

Green Arrow came first by about twenty years, but was largely just 'Batman with a bow and arrow'. But if GA didn't exist, I doubt Hawkeye would have been created.

Hawkeye went from reluctant villain to reformed hero. He had a thing for a dark clad lady with a 'Black _______' codename wearing fishnets (early Natasha). He joined the premiere superteam of his world, and became the loudmouth on the team who disagreed with everyone.

Then in the late 1960s, Green Arrow grew a non-Batman personality, started having romantic feelings for a dark clad lady with a 'Black _______' codename wearing fishnets. And while he already belonged to the premiere superteam of his world, he became the loudmouth on the team who disagreed with everyone.

This goes on. Mark Gruenwald said in an interview about the Squadron Supreme, "I'm not going to do much with the Golden Archer and Lady Lark relationship, because I already did it with Hawkeye and Mockingbird in the Hawkeye limited series." Of course, Golden Archer and Lady Lark were the SS stand-ins for Green Arrow and Black Canary. So, yeah Hawkeye got Mockingbird because Ollie had Dinah.

And of course, they've both been flanderised. Clint, as explained above. Ollie, in that they gave him his ward, Roy's, commitment problems and cranked it up to 11. Seriously, for nearly two decades, Ollie had eyes only for Dinah. Then he had one weird with tryst with Shado while Ollie and Dinah are on the outs, and because of that Ollie is an unrepentant womanising player.

[Conversely, while Ollie was with Dinah, Roy Harper was dating Donna Troy (the heroine so hot she eventually married an author expy), and he still felt the need to hit on any woman he met. He fathered Lian Harper while Ollie and Dinah were still together. But you can't spell 'Arsenal' without 'arse'.]

So, yeah, Ollie and Clint have had a really weird symbiotic influence on each other over the decades.
Yeah, it's a shame how certain elements are just kind of accepted as fact when they either didn't exist or were one off incidents. Ollie was never shown as a philanderer, but after Shado drugs him and then ... basically rapes him, it became this idea that Ollie cheated on Dinah and was thus a serial womanizer and cheater. Roy was the one who couldn't keep it in his pants, wound up becoming a single dad because of it, and that actually led to him having character development and becoming more responsible.

So yeah, a lot little things that need to be retconned to fix things for Ollie and Clint. That Mockingbird mini-series just needs to be shoved into a wood chipper and forgotten about. I also think Kate needs her own identity the same way Miles does (I've really come around to liking Miles as The Scarlet Spider), so maybe give Kate the Trickshot name or have her go back to her original gear set where she had the gear of various Avengers, such as the Swordsman, Mockingbird, Hawkeye, etc. and give her a name based off of that, like Arsenal or Weapon Master.
Maybe have Kate use Dane Whitman's old Neuro sword as her secondary weapon.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Hawkeye’s Rogues and Best Moments

Post by Jabroniville »

HAWKEYE & MOCKINGBIRD'S ROGUES:

-Hawkeye is a bit unfortunate. See, he's one of Marvel's best heroes, and naturally one of the greatest Avengers- as iconic to the team as anybody. He should be a major name- he's in the MOVIE, for God's sake!- with plenty of solo books to his name.

The issue? Hawkeye has a TERRIBLE Rogues Gallery. Worse than almost any other hero on his level. I mean, his main villain is the jobber CROSSFIRE (who notably was not created as a Hawkeye foe in the first place... not that this is the sole criteria for a great Arch-Nemesis, but it's telling). The rest of the list is full of Gimmicky Jobbers, a Fallen Mentor archetype, a Long-Lost Brother, and a random giant thrown in. Mockingbird is even worse off, since she never really went solo for any length of time.

But just because- here are the Top Ten Greatest Hawkeye Moments:

10) Defeats Captain Atom off-panel during JLA/Avengers, enraging DC fanboys.
9) Meets and marries Mockingbird on the same day. Because that's how Hawkeye rolls.
8) Almost gets Moonstone to switch sides and turn good. Keep in mind that Moonstone used to manipulate people into committing suicide FOR FUN.

Image
7) This panel.

6) Hawkeye is snared/bound up by something, and Immortus is about to take control of the universe or whatever. So Hawkeye naturally fires his bow WITH HIS FEET and saves the day.
5) The entire Avengers team is defeated by the various gimmicks and collected merchandise of Taneleer Tivan- The Collector. The last one left? Hawkeye, the least-powerful among them. Naturally, he easily disarms and defeats their foe.
4) Successfully manages to resist the sexual advances of SONGBIRD of all people. She practically pushes him to the floor and breaks him like a riding pony and he STILL RESISTS HER. I mean, WHAT KIND OF A SAVE DC WOULD THAT TAKE?!? Numbers don't GO that high!!
3) Hawkeye striking a blow for male chauvinists everywhere by planting one on THE FREAKING VALKYRIE, then ducking the intervening sword-swipe and not only getting her to accept his half-hearted apology but then ADMIT TO HERSELF THAT SHE LIKED IT.
2) Hawkeye saves the Marvel & DC Universes at the same time by firing an arrow into Kronus' fancy-machine at the end of JLA/Avengers. Barry Allen helped, but his ass didn't shoot no arrows.
1) Saves the entire universe by cheating at "Draw Straws" against The Grandmaster, distracting him enough for Death to break free of her bonds and exile him. He then makes fun of Cap for being shocked that he'd cheat.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Trick Shot

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

TRICK SHOT (Buck Chisholm)
Created By:
Tom DeFalco & Mark Bright
First Appearance: Solo Avengers #1 (Dec. 1987)
Role: Jobber Villain, Evil Mentor
Group Affiliations: The Secret Empire
PL 8 (86)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 9 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Deception 4 (+5)
Expertise (Criminal) 3 (+3)
Expertise (Showman) 4 (+5)
Insight 2 (+2)
Intimidation 2 (+3)
Perception 3 (+3)

Advantages:
Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Bow), Ranged Attack 6

Powers:
"Tough Guy, But Unhealthy" Protection 2 [2]

"Trick Bow & Arrow" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [18]
"Explosive Arrow" Blast 8 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (24) -- (29 points)
  • AE: "Smoke Bombs" Concealment 2 (Visuals) (Extras: Ranged, Area- 15ft. Cloud, Attack) (10)
  • AE: "Bola Arrow" Snare 7 (Inaccurate -1) (20)
  • AE: "Boomerang Arrow" Blast 5 (Feats: Split 2, Homing, Ricochet 2) (15)
  • AE: "Gas Arrow" Sleep 8 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (24)
  • AE: "Standard Arrow" Blast 5 (Feats: Variable- Blunt, Electrical or Sharp) (Extras: Multiattack) (16)
Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Standard Arrow +10 (+5 Ranged Damage, DC 20)
Gas Arrow +8 Area (+8 Affliction, DC 18)
Bola Arrow +8 (+7 Ranged Affliction, DC 17)
Explosive Arrow +8 Area (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +0

Defenses:
Dodge +9 (DC 19), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +4, Fortitude +2, Will +2

Complications:
Motivation (Greed)
Addiction (Alcohol)
Disabled (Overweight & Unhealthy)- Trick Shot's poor lifestyle choices and cancer have slowed him down considerably. He will tire quickly, and is often rather slow.

Total: Abilities: 38 / Skills: 18--9 / Advantages: 8 / Powers: 20 / Defenses: 11 (86)

-Trick Shot was invented by Tom DeFalco for Hawkeye's inaugural adventure in Solo Avengers, being revealed as a Retcon Mentor who trained Clint in the use of a bow (since it bothered the writers that Hawkeye had somehow been trained in archery by a guy named SWORDSMAN). Buck Chisholm, a loutish gambler with a drinking problem, is conned by Swordsman into training young Clint, and they later help him become a crook like them. However, Buck gets pissed when Clint refuses to leave his injured brother's side after a robbery gone wrong, and abandons him. Trick Shot returns years later, revealing that he has cancer and wishes a death-duel with Hawkeye. Clint defeats him, realizing that Trick Shot was intentionally holding back (wanting to die honorably), but refuses to kill the man- he instead helps fund Trick Shot's medical care. He later aids Hawkeye against a group of villains out to collect the bounty on Hawkeye's right arm (Crossfire, being a dick, placed it, and Bobcat, the Brothers Grimm, the Bullet Biker, the Death-Throws, Mad Dog & Razor Fist intended to collect).

-He later reappeared being hired by the Secret Empire to protect one of their facilities along with Javelynn, but helps Hawkeye once again. He later trains Clint's resurrected brother Barney in archery (Baron Zemo was now funding his cancer treatment, and this was the catch), but was then double-crossed and left to die. He warned Hawkeye of the danger with his final breaths.

-Trick Shot is basically Hawkeye Lite, as he wasn't really a match for Clint in any of his non-flashback appearances. He's effectively a large, past-his-prime Archer with PL 7.5-ish stats throughout, and some REALLY bad saves. He's also notably unhealthy despite being so burly.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ken
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: Sycalb, Madiganistan

Re: Hawkeye’s Rogues and Best Moments

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:44 am 10) Defeats Captain Atom off-panel during JLA/Avengers, enraging DC fanboys.
It isn't that Hawkeye defeated Captain Atom. It was the HOW Hawkeye beat Captain Atom that was the problem. Hawkeye said he used the arrows he keeps around for fighting Radioactive Man. If it had been the 1960s Captain Atom, that would have been fine. The DC Captain Atom introduced in 1986, or so, and used here is not radioactive, so using anti-radiation arrows made no sense.

If it had been a sonic arrow, or maybe that Vibranium Arrow, that Hawkeye had used, Hawkeye defeating Captain Atom would have been fine.

Of course, if Iron Man had simply uni-beamed or repulsored Captain Atom so much that Captain Atom was quantum bumped five minutes into the future, it would have been an even better victory, more consistent with the post-Crisis Captain Atom.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Hawkeye’s Rogues and Best Moments

Post by Jabroniville »

Ken wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:57 am
Jabroniville wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 2:44 am 10) Defeats Captain Atom off-panel during JLA/Avengers, enraging DC fanboys.
It isn't that Hawkeye defeated Captain Atom. It was the HOW Hawkeye beat Captain Atom that was the problem. Hawkeye said he used the arrows he keeps around for fighting Radioactive Man. If it had been the 1960s Captain Atom, that would have been fine. The DC Captain Atom introduced in 1986, or so, and used here is not radioactive, so using anti-radiation arrows made no sense.

If it had been a sonic arrow, or maybe that Vibranium Arrow, that Hawkeye had used, Hawkeye defeating Captain Atom would have been fine.

Of course, if Iron Man had simply uni-beamed or repulsored Captain Atom so much that Captain Atom was quantum bumped five minutes into the future, it would have been an even better victory, more consistent with the post-Crisis Captain Atom.
The forum where the rage went down is long-dead, but I remember the fans mainly being pissed that Capt. Atom jobbed. They also lost it when Blue Beetle was shown jump-kicking Black Panther in a jungle, because of course T'Challa is like +6 in jungles or something. I had to point out to them that Black Panther is later showing mirroring that same kick to the Beetle later in THAT SAME ISSUE, but people just like to back their preferred company.
Post Reply