JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Blaze! Blockbuster(s)! Lady Vic!

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JDRook
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by JDRook »

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Arsenal - PL 10

Strength 2, Stamina 2, Agility 5, Dexterity 5, Fighting 6, Intellect 1, Awareness 2, Presence 2

Advantages
Accurate Attack, Attractive, Chokehold, Close Attack 5, Connected, Defensive Roll 3, Equipment 2, Evasion, Improved Aim, Improved Critical 2: Arsenal, Improved Initiative, Improvised Weapon 2, Power Attack, Precise Attack 3 (Close, Concealment & Cover; Ranged Cover), Quick Draw, Ranged Attack 5, Throwing Mastery 2

Skills
Acrobatics 3 (+8), Athletics 9 (+11), Close Combat: Arsenal 5 (+11), Deception 7 (+9), Insight 6 (+8), Intimidation 5 (+7), Investigation 7 (+8), Perception 8 (+10), Persuasion 7 (+9), Ranged Combat: Arsenal 6 (+11), Ranged Combat: Bows 5 (+10), Vehicles 4 (+9)

Powers/Equipment

Arsenal Array - 6ep + 2 AEs = 8ep
. . Batons: Strength-based Damage 2 (DC 19; Split: 2 targets) {3p}
. . Short Sword: Strength-based Damage 2 (DC 19; Penetrating 2) {4p}
. . Throwing Knives: Damage 2 (DC 19; Multiattack [2 extra ranks]) {6p}

Offense
Initiative +9
Batons: Strength-based Damage 2, +16 (DC 19)
Grab, +11 (DC Spec 12)
Short Sword: Strength-based Damage 2, +16 (DC 19)
Throw, +10 (DC 19)
Throwing Knives: Damage 2, +16 (DC 19)
Unarmed, +11 (DC 17)

Complications
Bereaved: Arsenal recently lost his daughter Lian in the destruction of Star City, an event that left him an angry, broken man, riding the line between hero and villain.
Junkie: When he was younger, Arsenal was addicted to heroin. While he beat his addiction and was clean for many years, the loss of his daughter has driven him back to drugs and caused him to have severe hallucinations.

Defense
Dodge 15, Parry 15, Fortitude 8, Toughness 5/2, Will 8

Power Points
Abilities 50 + Powers 0 + Advantages 33 + Skills 36 (72 ranks) + Defenses 31 = 150

There are a lot of stages to Arsenal.

Roy Harper, Jr lost his park ranger father* to a forest fire when he was young and was raised by a Navajo Medicine Man who helped develop his natural aptitude for the bow. When he met Green Arrow at an archery contest, GA took him on as a ward and sidekick, which was the style at the time, and called him "Speedy" because he was so fast with the bow.

Speedy founded the Teen Titans, dated Wonder Girl until TT broke up too, and then did a lot of heroin, which cheesed off Green Arrow and broke them up as well, with Black Canary helping him through recovery. The recovery took time but apparently went so well he became a DEA agent.

Agent Harper started with the DEA but was eventually recruited into Checkmate. He met Cheshire on mission and quickly got her pregnant. Cheshire ditched as international terrorists are apt to do, and Harper became a single dad, retiring from active duty to take care of her. This lasted until Sarge Steel tasked him to lead the (new, grown-up) Titans. With the new job he changed his name and look to Arsenal.

Arsenal led the Titans until they disbanded, formed up a new Outsiders, and then retired again to let his best friend Nightwing lead. However, when Green Lantern heard Harper was free, he invited to join the JLA. (cue costume montage)

Red Arrow was Roy's homage to Green Arrow, which helped them get over their old baggage and work together again, until Prometheus cut off his arm. Roy got a cyber-arm while he was unconscious, but also lost his daughter when Promotheus destroyed Star City, so grief drove him back to heroin and revenge and being Arsenal again.

(*before I get into the mechanics, I do want it noted that Roy never knew his mother, and apparently no one else did either. He doesn't know her name, and she's not mentioned in any story outside her absence. It wouldn't be until over seventy years after Speedy debuted that the DCnu52niverse would make Mrs. Harper another park ranger who died with her husband in the forest with, as near as I can tell, still no name. I don't think this counts as "fridging", but it's not good.)

Numbers-wise, Arsenal is the first "perfect" build in the book, a solid RtP PL10/150p character. But if you want to be picky (and I always do), there's really no reason Roy doesn't just have FGT 11 instead of buying up Close Attack and Parry for the same cost, which would be justified by his training from some of the greatest melee fighters in the world. A similar argument could be made for just giving him Ranged Attack 10 instead of RA5 plus Ranged Combat: Arsenal plus RC: Bows.

The Arsenal Array itself is a little questionable, since it is equipment-based. None of those weapons are listed equipment, and the Multiattack is probably the most problematic, but they are such a low rank it's not too unreasonable. On the other hand, because they are such low rank, you can't get them over Damage 8 even with Power Attack. This lets Roy be a terror in a street campaign, but might have to depend more on his wits in a larger scale PL10 adventure.

There is a sidebar going into variations on his previous "loadouts" for weaponry, including crossbows, electric bolos, grenades and of course bow & arrow to cover different points in his varied heroic career. There's no mention of any mechanical effect of the cybernetic arm, so presumably its technical advancement is all focused on being as responsive and precise as the original arm, so no change, although I would think it would at least rate a Feature.

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Overall he's technically balanced: Roy hits offensive caps with all of his Arsenal attacks and potentially with a standard (Damage 5) bow, but only PL7 with other Thrown objects and PL6.5 unarmed melee. He hits defensive caps except for F/W at PL8. He is very Attack-shifted and Defense-shifted, but otherwise the first build so far that's playable without any adjustment or clarification.
Last edited by JDRook on Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Ken »

JDRook wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:27 amSpeedy founded the Teen Titans, dated Wonder Girl until TT broke up too, and then did a lot of heroin, which cheesed off Green Arrow and got him kicked out of the mansion, with Black Canary helping him through recovery.
What mansion? By the time Ollie and Dinah were dating, and Ollie discovered Roy was a junkie, Ollie had lost his fortune. In fact, Roy says part of the reason he turned to drugs was because he felt abandoned after Oliver left to travel around the country with Hal Jordan.

I always wondered what Donna saw in Roy, since Roy was always hitting on anything in a skirt.

But I'd better be careful, or I'll find myself repeating my rant about obnoxious archers I posted recently in Jab's thread (discussing Clint and Oliver's influences on each other.) Remember, you can't spell Arsenal without "Arse".
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by JDRook »

Ken wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:17 pm
JDRook wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:27 amSpeedy founded the Teen Titans, dated Wonder Girl until TT broke up too, and then did a lot of heroin, which cheesed off Green Arrow and got him kicked out of the mansion, with Black Canary helping him through recovery.
What mansion? By the time Ollie and Dinah were dating, and Ollie discovered Roy was a junkie, Ollie had lost his fortune.
Whoops, my bad. I was compressing Roy's life into a few sentences based on what I was picking up from wikis and put that in for rhythm. I knew Ollie lost his fortune at some point but didn't realize it was there. Will fix.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Ken »

JDRook wrote: Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:01 pm Whoops, my bad. I was compressing Roy's life into a few sentences based on what I was picking up from wikis and put that in for rhythm. I knew Ollie lost his fortune at some point but didn't realize it was there. Will fix.
I may not have Ambush Bug's +18, but my knowledge of pre-2011 DC is pretty extensive.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by JDRook »

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The Atom (Al Pratt) - PL 10

Strength 8, Stamina 4, Agility 5, Dexterity 3, Fighting 6, Intellect 2, Awareness 1, Presence 2

Advantages
All-out Attack, Chokehold, Close Attack 3, Defensive Attack, Defensive Roll 2, Diehard, Improved Defense, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Seize Initiative, Takedown, Ultimate Effort: Toughness

Skills
Acrobatics 4 (+9), Athletics 6 (+14), Close Combat: Unarmed 3 (+9), Expertise: Physics 7 (+9), Insight 4 (+5), Intimidation 6 (+8), Perception 4 (+5), Stealth 2 (+7), Technology 4 (+6), Treatment 2 (+4)

Powers

Atomic Strength - 14p
. . Enhanced Strength 4 (+4 STR)
. . Leaping 1 (Leap 15 feet at 4 miles/hour)
. . Protection 4 (+4 Toughness)
. . Speed 1 (Speed: 4 miles/hour, 60 feet/round)

Atomic Punch: Feature 8 (Distracting, Noticeable: Atomic Glowing Fists, Notes: Penetrating 8 on Strength damage) - 3p
Extended Vitality: Immunity 2 (Aging, Environmental Condition: Radiation) - 2p

Offense
Initiative +9
Grab, +9 (DC Spec 18)
Throw, +3 (DC 23)
Unarmed, +12 (DC 23)

Complications
Identity: The Atom’s identity as Al Pratt is a secret to all but his most trusted friends and teammates.
Temper: The Atom is reckless, impulsive, and has a quick temper when it comes to “short” jokes.

Defense
Dodge 10, Parry 10, Fortitude 9, Toughness 10/8, Will 7

Power Points
Abilities 54 + Powers 19 + Advantages 15 + Skills 21 (42 ranks) + Defenses 20 = 129

Al Pratt was the classic 98lb weakling, like the pre-serum Steve Rogers and shorter than Wolverine, although predating both of them publishing-wise. He was pulled into another classic bit, helping the homeless man who's actually powerful, although in this case he didn't help a king or a god, but world-class fight trainer Joe Morgan, who for his kindness offered to turn Pratt from pipsqueak to powerhouse. Morgan succeeded, but Pratt didn't want the glory of the ring, but to help the less fortunate and take down their bullies.

Al initially had no superpowers, just a heart of gold and a hankering to dish out two-fisted justice. Undoubtedly a great hero for his time: helping the helpless never goes out of style, but he debuted just after the Great Depression and just before the US entered WW2, so "little guy fights for the little guys everywhere" probably had a lot of audience appeal. He was also a founding member of the JSA and when his country called, served as a tank driver in the war.

After that, things get a little hard to track as retcons start to overlap. Al did eventually get superpowers after a fight with Cyclotron, a reluctant villain being coerced by the Ultra-humanite. Cyclotron's radiation affected Al giving him "atomic strength," which is the build in the DCA book. They do suggest you can just remove his powers to make the Golden Age PL8 Atom as well.

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Only a few bothersome bits on this one. The Atomic Punch, which is kind of a All-Out attack that gives Penetrating for a defense drop, is a little weird to build and would only come into play with really high Impervious (+15) opponents using standard 3e Imperv; OTOH, it's not very expensive and is a neat flavour power that a player will be glad to have if you give them an opponent who needs it. The Aging Immunity is technically Half-Effect, but doesn't cost less, and is meant to simulate how the JSA managed to survive to modern times (ie the 90s) until the Zero Hour event takes that away to give them an ending. It's an interesting point, but you won't want that on your PC.

The build itself is a pretty simple underpointed PL10 brawler, offensive cap from unarmed attacks and defensively capped on the non-exotics. His powers bump him up out of human ranges but as mentioned can be lifted right out to make an underpointed PL8 that hits all his caps. The build itself could be a basic template for a PC in a PL10 or 8 game, leaving 19 or 10 points to customize with. As an NPC, Al could still be a legacy hero in your campaign, with knowledge of history, connections to the old JSA or similar teams, and a potential mentor or father figure to PCs.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Ken »

JDRook wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:56 am Al initially had no superpowers, just a heart of gold and a hankering to dish out two-fisted justice. Undoubtedly a great hero for his time: helping the helpless never goes out of style, but he debuted just after the Great Depression and just before the US entered WW2, so "little guy fights for the little guys everywhere" probably had a lot of audience appeal. He was also a founding member of the JSA and when his country called, served as a tank driver in the war.

After that, things get a little hard to track as retcons start to overlap. Al did eventually get superpowers after a fight with Cyclotron, a reluctant villain being coerced by the Ultra-humanite. Cyclotron's radiation affected Al giving him "atomic strength," which is the build in the DCA book. They do suggest you can just remove his powers to make the Golden Age PL8 Atom as well.

Only a few bothersome bits on this one. The Atomic Punch, which is kind of a All-Out attack that gives Penetrating for a defense drop, is a little weird to build and would only come into play with really high Impervious (+15) opponents using standard 3e Imperv; OTOH, it's not very expensive and is a neat flavour power that a player will be glad to have if you give them an opponent who needs it.
In 1947, Max Gaines sold his portion of All-American Publications to his business partners Jack Liebowitz and Harry Donefeld. Liebowitz and Donefeld owned National Comics (now known as DC). This arrangement is why AA titles said "DC" on the cover during the war, why Starman, Hourman, Sandman, Dr. Fate, and the Spectre (National characters) were in the JSA (All-Star Comics was an AA title) and why Johnny Thunder (AA) appeared in the two issues World's Fair Comics (a National title) in '39 and '40.

Anyway, by 1948, AA's offices were gone and all their titles were being handled by National. And National started making changes. In All-Star Comics #41, the Atom upends a circus truck with one blow. No one bats an eye. In All-Star Comics #42, Al's costume is changed to the one with the red fin and half mask (more or less, originally the fin went the other way and it had gloves and long sleeves). Over in Al's solo feature in Flash Comics Al's costume also changes, with no explanation, and suddenly he's stopping trains with his bare hands. None of this had no explanation.

In a 1983-ish issue of All-Star Squadron, Al loses a fight with Cyclotron and Al is irradiated. Doctor Mid-Nite comments after Al has recovered from the radiation that Al may have side-effects later, even years in the future. And Cyclotron's costume resembles the Atom's second one, so, yeah, Roy Thomas was sowing the seeds of explaining Al's later super-strength. And this is the one ret-con that really matters.

Later writers (e.g. James Robinson) tried to put his own version of Al's strength boost and costume change, but it was unneeded.

----------

The DCA build is technically wrong, in that the Atom didn't really develop his Atomic Punch until the early '90s, after the JSA had escaped Ragnarok. And in those stories Al said, explicitly that his super strength had worn away. It was also Fatiguing.

As an Atom fan, I found the research done by the DCA writers on the various Atoms to be lacking.

-----------

Unrelated to any of this, one of the changes to Al's golden age costume that happened during All-Star Squadron was that his leather trunks became more stylised coming to a point near the sternum. This is wrong. Al's leather trunks were actual athletic wear worn in the late '30s and early '40s. Kind of trunks combined with a weight belt, providing extra abdominal and lower back support. Sadly, this isn't well-known today so a lot of people say "what the heck is up with the trunks on the Atom's first costume".
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by That Sullivan Guy »

Ken wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:29 am The DCA build is technically wrong, in that the Atom didn't really develop his Atomic Punch until the early '90s, after the JSA had escaped Ragnarok. And in those stories Al said, explicitly that his super strength had worn away. It was also Fatiguing.

As an Atom fan, I found the research done by the DCA writers on the various Atoms to be lacking.

As the writer of the entry in question, I would respond by saying you're assuming the process was more straight-forward and hands-off than it actually was. With over two dozen writers turning in a massive number of characters in short order with the PLs already decided by Jon and Steve before the characters were ever assigned, there were already restraints and creative issue disagreements floating around (not to mention very real and important word count/page space considerations*). This was combined with the personal interests of the developer, which didn't always coincide with existing accurate knowledge and appreciation for all characters equally. For example, I was originally told to make Doctor Fate a PL12. Jon really knew, well, not a great deal about the character, as I found out discussing the matter with him. It took me a three page email to Jon with MANY comic issue citations to convince him otherwise (including referring him to Winninger's write-up in the WWII sourcebook for Mayfair's DC game, as Jon knew Ray a lot better than he knew me), and he still thought I had made Nelson seriously overpowered (but eventually let the matter drop because he figured I knew the character better than he did).

When I turned in the first draft on Pratt, it was for the unpowered mystery man version with a sidebar about introducing his later Atomic Strength (citing the modern pseudo-retcon with Stalker's atomic goon exploding) and then the Atomic Punch (citing the sadly short-lived 90s post-Zero Hour series). I was asked to consolidate the powers for a "classic" modern version and then describe how to strip stuff away to make the original Mysteryman. This was far from the only back-and-forth. The animated discussions about Atom Smasher, Spectre, Wildcat, (modern) Judomaster, and several others were very frustrating at times.

Not my call about what finally got published, but I assure you lackluster research was not a factor (and I imagine this was the same for many of the writers involved). A tremendous amount of stuff I wrote even wound up on the cutting room floor for numerous entries. I'm a JSA fanatic with digital copies of everything covering a 70 year period and physical copies of a good percentage of that, so I took seriously the responsibility of "getting them right."

I didn't do the write-ups for Palmer or Cho, so I can't speak to those.



(*This, above many other factors, was probably the decider on oh so many things in the books. Space for word count isn't a problem on these forums, but it was precious as diamonds on a large complicated book like these were.)
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by JDRook »

That Sullivan Guy wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:50 pm
Ken wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:29 am The DCA build is technically wrong, in that the Atom didn't really develop his Atomic Punch until the early '90s, after the JSA had escaped Ragnarok. And in those stories Al said, explicitly that his super strength had worn away. It was also Fatiguing.

As an Atom fan, I found the research done by the DCA writers on the various Atoms to be lacking.
As the writer of the entry in question, I would respond by saying you're assuming the process was more straight-forward and hands-off than it actually was.
...
Not my call about what finally got published, but I assure you lackluster research was not a factor (and I imagine this was the same for many of the writers involved). A tremendous amount of stuff I wrote even wound up on the cutting room floor for numerous entries. I'm a JSA fanatic with digital copies of everything covering a 70 year period and physical copies of a good percentage of that, so I took seriously the responsibility of "getting them right."
I really appreciate the background on the history of the characters and the process of making the book from both of you. Most of these characters I'm encountering for the first time in the DCA books (and my subsequent ad hoc research) and it's good to get the viewpoint from those who have been following them for years.

I'm probably going to put less focus into overview bios for each of these, since I'm much more interested in fixing or updating builds for playability and the research distracts me from that, but you are more than welcome to continue offering comments and feedback in this thread.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by JDRook »

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Atom, The (Ray Palmer) - PL 11

Strength 2, Stamina 2, Agility 3, Dexterity 3, Fighting 3, Intellect 9, Awareness 5, Presence 2

Advantages
All-out Attack, Defensive Roll 2, Hide in Plain Sight, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Improvised Weapon 3, Inventor

Skills
Acrobatics 6 (+9), Close Combat: Swords 5 (+8), Close Combat: Unarmed 6 (+9), Expertise: Science 11 (+20), Investigation 3 (+12), Perception 5 (+10), Technology 6 (+15), Treatment 2 (+11)

Powers
Ride Air Currents: Flight 4 (Speed: 30 miles/hour, 500 feet/round; Gliding, Limited: to While Using Shrinking)
Size and Mass Control: Shrinking 20 (Removable, +20 Stealth, +10 active defenses, -5 size ranks; Atomic Size, Increased Duration: continuous, Normal Strength) - 65p
Telephone Travel: Teleport 20 (4000 miles in a move action, carrying 50 lbs.; Limited: while using Shrinking, Medium: open electromagnetic connection) - 10p

White Dwarf Costume: Feature 1 (Notes: Can change into Atom costume as a free action)
White Dwarf Punch: Strength-based Damage 8 (DC 25; Activation: move action, Limited: Must start the turn shrunk and end it full size)

Offense
Initiative +7
Grab, +3 (DC Spec 12)
Throw, +3 (DC 17)
Unarmed, +9 (DC 17)
White Dwarf Punch: Strength-based Damage 8, +9 (DC 25)

Complications
Compassion: Despite great loss and betrayal in his past, the Atom remains empathetic to both those who have known similar pain and those who cause it.
Curiosity: The Atom’s drive toward a scientific understanding of the universe has been the cornerstone of his success, both as a super hero and a scientist.
Scientific Advisor: The Atom enjoys sharing his knowledge and his joy of scientific discovery with his fellow heroes, and with younger heroes in particular.

Defense
Dodge 14/7, Parry 14/7, Fortitude 5, Toughness 4/2, Will 9

Power Points
Abilities 58 + Powers 81 + Advantages 10 + Skills 22 (44 ranks) + Defenses 15 = 186

This Atom is a little more familiar to most people, although not quite at the "like Iron Man only nice" incarnation that is the Legends of Tomorrow version. Dr. Palmer is the quintessential "science hero adventurer", brilliant in his field but also handy in a fight, he's a little more physically capable than your Gadgeteer archetype or Battlesuit out of suit. The DCA build is only very technically PL11; Palmer only reaches that defensively and only when he's at full rank for Shrinking (PL10.5 for D/P 17 and Toughess 4) and it specifically notes that he has an "action size" of Shrinking 14 or 6", which is only a defensive PL9. Offensively, Palmer also only hits PL9.5 with his White Dwarf Punch, and otherwise only hits PL7 if he's wielding a sword (a nod to his "Sword of the Atom" series) or an Improvised Weapon. So combat-wise, Atom is usually operating more like a PL9 overall, with a noncombat PL10 for his science skill.

So how can a build be simultaneously so overpointed and so underperforming? It's my old archnemesis: Size-Changing! Changing size can be complicated in M&M since it also changes STR, Defenses and several other traits, many of which are PL-limited. It can also affect the world-building of a game, or at least add another level to environmental awareness, since it requires the GM to consider things like door sizes, weight loads, hiding places, etc, beyond what would be needed for almost any other powerset; these considerations can be waived or ignored, but doing so makes Growth underpriced and Shrinking overpriced since these environmental circumstance modifiers are effectively baked into the point cost for each. This makes Growth a powergamer's delight and Shrinking a point-sucking nightmare, so both can be a headache for a GM in different ways.

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Shrinking is of course central to Palmer's Atom, but the design needs some cleaning. The most obvious unnecessary expense is the Atomic Extra. While only 1p, it has an exceptional requirement of Shrinking 20 to use. Why? It's not explicitly stated, but based on the additional rules info in the Size Changing Power Profile, I infer that it effectively works as an Alternate Effect composed of Concealment 10 (All Senses) plus Insubstantial 4 (Incorporeal, affected by Area and Perception Range Attacks), which is 40p total by default, which is equal to an unmodified Shrinking 20. Considering Palmer has the Normal Strength and Increased Duration Extras for his Shrinking, he could just as easily have that AE with only Shrinking 14 and treat any sizes smaller than that as "undetectably itty bitty."

The other, lesser issue is the Teleport through phone lines. As a brute force solution this works fine, but unless it absolutely needs to function at combat speeds every time, I can think of two ways to trim it down:
1) Add Extended, Limited to Extended and drop rank to 14. With the other modifiers this drops the cost to 7p and actually reaches all the way around the world. On the minus side it requires 2 Move Actions and Atom is Dazed and Vulnerable for 1 round on arrival, but he's shrunk so it's likely he won't be noticed.
2) Remove the "While Shrunk" Flaw but make it an AE. The mechanical problem with this involves Free Actions and Array slot-switching, which boils down to not being able to start shrunk, phone-port and end shrunk in a single round. A generous GM might wave this detail for simplicity, particularly for non-combat movement, but YMMV.
OR
2a) assume it's a Power Stunt.

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Using the lower-ranked Shrinking with the alternative to Atomic size and the first Teleport fix, you end up with this:

Size and Mass Control Array (Removable) 57 - 11 = 46p
. . "Action Size": Shrinking 14 (+14 Stealth, +7 active defenses, -3 size ranks; Increased Duration: continuous, Normal Strength) {56}
. . Microscopic Size {53}
. . . . Concealment 10 (All Senses; Increased Duration: continuous, Quirk: Can be overcome by Microscopic Senses with a DC20 Perception Check) {29}
. . . . Insubstantial 4 (Incorporeal, Increased Duration: continuous) {24}
Telephone Travel: Teleport 14 (Carry 50 lbs.; Extended: 16000 miles in 2 move actions; Limited: while shrunk, Limited to Extended, Medium: open electromagnetic connection) - 7p

The Quirk is something I'd been considering for Concealment with the Shrinking Descriptor, although as a GM I might raise the DC but give some kind of per rank bonus for Microscopic Senses. (I have a similar idea for Concealment for Speedsters and Rapid Senses/Quickness.) The whole thing ends up saving over 20p without losing any real functionality, bringing the cost down into RtP PL11 range, although still operating as barely PL10. You could probably get him to PL11/165p easily enough trimming a few Abilities (DEX, AWE, maybe even INT), compensating for the skill drops and adding to defenses. I'd probably consolidate his Close Combat skills and Parry into FGT 8 to make him decent with swords and everything else melee, and maybe add Accurate to his WD Punch to have one solid offense.

Now can you get him down to a playable PL10? Most definitely, but half the work is already done on another character . . .
Last edited by JDRook on Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Ken »

Ray was another Atomic build I found lacking.

Based on all of the solo Atom and JLA stories I've read over the years, I think you have the start of a good correction.
In my personal build for him, I have the +3 Toughness (compacted mass) added to the same Action size of Shrinking 14. I have the other slot as Shrinking 20, with the Atomic extra, but without the Normal Strength or Continuous, since he rarely spent much time at that size, and never in combat. I also make the Telephone Teleport part of that slot because he has to be at Atomic Size for it to work.

I also gave him +10 Close Attack, limited to while Shrunk. And another +5 close attack in the Shrinking 20 slot.

One of the things that is missing in the Shrinking rules is that the same way a target with Growth becomes easier to hit, a character with Shrinking should have an easier time hitting things.

All in all, my version isn't 'ready to play.' But he's 13 point cheaper than the DCA build, and a much better fighter.

Atom (Dr. Ray Palmer) - PL 11

Strength 3, Stamina 3, Agility 3, Dexterity 0, Fighting 7, Intellect 10, Awareness 5, Presence 2

Advantages
All-out Attack, Defensive Roll 1, Hide in Plain Sight, Improved Initiative 1, Improved Trip, Improvised Weapon 3, Inventor, Power Attack

Skills
Acrobatics 6 (+9), Close Combat: Unarmed 1 (+8), Expertise: Science 10 (+20), Investigation 2 (+12), Perception 5 (+10), Technology 5 (+15), Treatment 1 (+11)

Powers
Hitting "Large" Targets: Enhanced Trait 10 (Traits: Close Attack 11 +10 (+11); Limited: Only while Shrunk)
Ride Air Currents: Flight 4 (Speed: 30 miles/hour, 500 feet/round; Gliding, Limited: to While Using Shrinking)
Size and Mass Control Array
AE Action Size
  • Compacted Mass: Enhanced Trait 3 (Traits: Toughness +3 (+7))
  • Shrinking: Shrinking 14 (+14 Stealth, +7 active defenses, -3 size ranks; Increased Duration: continuous, Normal Strength)
AE Atomic Size
  • Atom Size: Shrinking 20 (-5 STR, -10 Intimidate, +20 Stealth, +10 active defenses, -5 size ranks, -2 speed ranks; Atomic Size)
  • Enhanced Trait: Enhanced Trait 5 (Traits: Close Attack 11 +5 (+16))
  • Telephone Travel: Teleport 15 (Carry 50 lbs.; Extended: 32000 miles in 2 move actions; Limited: only while Shrunk, Limited to Extended, Medium: open electromagnetic connection)
White Dwarf Costume: Feature 1 (Notes: Can change into Atom costume as a free action)
White Dwarf Punch: Strength-based Damage 4 (DC 22; Inaccurate 2: -4, Limited: Must start attack while Shrunk)

Offense
Initiative +7
Grab, +18 (DC Spec 13)
Throw, +0 (DC 18)
Unarmed, +19 (DC 18)
White Dwarf Punch: Strength-based Damage 4, +15 (DC 22)

Complications
Compassion: Despite great loss and betrayal in his past, the Atom remains empathetic to both those who have known similar pain and those who cause it.
Curiosity: The Atom's drive toward a scientific understanding of the universe has been the cornerstone of his success, both as a super hero and a scientist.
Scientific Advisor: The Atom enjoys sharing his knowledge and his joy of scientific discovery with his fellow heroes, and with younger heroes in particular.

Languages
English

Defense
Dodge 15, Parry 15, Fortitude 5, Toughness 7/6, Will 9

Power Points
Abilities 66 + Powers 69 + Advantages 11 + Skills 15 (30 ranks) + Defenses 12 = 173
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JDRook
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by JDRook »

Ken wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 amIn my personal build for him, I have the +3 Toughness (compacted mass) added to the same Action size of Shrinking 14.
Oh I like that! They mention that Ray can manipulate his own mass separately from his size, which narratively covers a lot of holes that Shrinking can cause, like being able to punch your full weight while tiny but still sit on someone's shoulder unnoticeably (looking at you, AntMan Film). Just adding that as Toughness keeps it simple and doesn't have the problems of Defensive Roll. I might also use it to add punch damage instead of upping his STR, but I imagine lifting capacity is necessarily fluid in Ray's stories as well.
I also gave him +10 Close Attack, limited to while Shrunk. And another +5 close attack in the Shrinking 20 slot.

One of the things that is missing in the Shrinking rules is that the same way a target with Growth becomes easier to hit, a character with Shrinking should have an easier time hitting things.
They attempt to address this in the Size Power Profile, although I find the wording confusing and the example makes it worse. The simplified version is just a circumstance modifier to your defense based on the attacker's relative size, which I guess avoids issues with PL-breaking bonuses for size effects.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by JDRook »

Image
source

Atom, The (Ryan Choi) - PL 10

Strength 2, Stamina 2, Agility 3, Dexterity 3, Fighting 3, Intellect 6, Awareness 3, Presence 2

Advantages
Beginner's Luck, Improved Trip, Inventor, Move-by Action, Skill Mastery: Expertise: Science

Skills
Acrobatics 4 (+7), Athletics 3 (+5), Close Combat: Unarmed 5 (+8), Expertise: Nanotechnology 9 (+15), Expertise: Science 9 (+15), Insight 2 (+5), Investigation 4 (+10), Perception 4 (+7), Technology 4 (+10), Treatment 2 (+8)

Powers

Bangstick: Flight 5 (Easily Removable, Speed: 60 miles/hour, 900 feet/round; Limited: to While Using Shrinking, Platform)

Size and Mass Control: Shrinking 20 (Removable, +20 Stealth, +10 active defenses, -5 size ranks; Atomic Size, Increased Duration: continuous, Normal Strength)
White Dwarf Costume: Feature 1 (Notes: Can change into Atom costume as a free action)
White Dwarf Punch: Strength-based Damage 8 (DC 25; Activation: move action, Limited: Must start the turn shrunk and end it full size)

Offense
Initiative +3
Grab, +3 (DC Spec 12)
Throw, +3 (DC 17)
Unarmed, +8 (DC 17)
White Dwarf Punch: Strength-based Damage 8, +8 (DC 25)

Complications
Enemy: The psychotic villain Dwarfstar is determined to kill the Atom.
Motivation: Responsibility: The Atom feels it’s his duty to fill his friend, Ray Palmer’s, shoes.
Quirk: Center of Strangeness: The Atom’s adopted home of Ivy Town has been affected by his physics-warping powers and it’s now a magnet for weird occurrences that the Atom usually has to deal with.

Defense
Dodge 13/6, Parry 13/6, Fortitude 5, Toughness 2, Will 5

Power Points
Abilities 48 + Powers 70 + Advantages 5 + Skills 23 (46 ranks) + Defenses 11 = 157

While Ray Palmer's connection to Al Pratt's original Atom is tenuous at best, Ryan Choi is absolutely a direct and deliberate copy of Palmer. Choi was a fan of Palmer the scientist, corresponding with him and even coming to his university in Ivy Town, and when Palmer vanished, Choi took his job and eventually his mantle when he found his notes and equipment.

Mechanically, Choi is essentially a scaled-down Palmer, with a not-quite-superhuman INT and AWE (otherwise identical Abilities), less combat-oriented Advantages, a similarly toned-down skillset and almost identical powers. He comes in as an overpointed PL10 (including math typo on Defenses), but again is functionally below PL, with only the WD Punch giving him PL9 offense, his "action-size" defenses at PL7.5, and everything else practically at minion level.

Image
source

There are a few touches I like about the build. While Choi isn't as brilliant as Palmer, having Skill Mastery: Science showcases him as someone who can get consistent results under pressure, so he's a real workhorse of a scientist. Also, the Bangstick is IMO a marvel of functional min/maxing: a Flight 5 Device Flawed to 1p, costing less than an equipment-based jetpack with the same speed but capable of potentially being power-stunted for other uses. The fact that it's actually repurposed "adventure loot" is even more interesting to me. It's little bits of flair like this that can make an individual character stick out from the rest, which is especially good for legacies.

So the RtP challenge for Choi would naturally be similar to Palmer's: replacing the Atomic level Shrinking with the Action-size/Microscopic Array shaves of enough points to almost get Choi to a balance PL9, giving him 12p to make up for lacking areas. Ken's Toughness as Compacted Mass could keep Choi from being too flimsy, and he could add some Dodge/Parry to himself or even the bangstick to be even harder to target. On the other hand, someone playing Choi might also just lean into his less combat-oriented build and stick to using his shrinking to remain virtually untouchable and undetectable most of the time, gathering information and formulating plans. With that angle, he could work fine as an RTP PL9, or even trim down some of his skills and abilities and you could get him to PL8 for a "teen Atom" PC.

Image
Last edited by JDRook on Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Ken »

JDRook wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:20 am
Ken wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:22 amIn my personal build for him, I have the +3 Toughness (compacted mass) added to the same Action size of Shrinking 14.
Oh I like that! They mention that Ray can manipulate his own mass separately from his size, which narratively covers a lot of holes that Shrinking can cause, like being able to punch your full weight while tiny but still sit on someone's shoulder unnoticeably (looking at you, AntMan Film). Just adding that as Toughness keeps it simple and doesn't have the problems of Defensive Roll. I might also use it to add punch damage instead of upping his STR, but I imagine lifting capacity is necessarily fluid in Ray's stories as well.
I also gave him +10 Close Attack, limited to while Shrunk. And another +5 close attack in the Shrinking 20 slot.

One of the things that is missing in the Shrinking rules is that the same way a target with Growth becomes easier to hit, a character with Shrinking should have an easier time hitting things.
They attempt to address this in the Size Power Profile, although I find the wording confusing and the example makes it worse. The simplified version is just a circumstance modifier to your defense based on the attacker's relative size, which I guess avoids issues with PL-breaking bonuses for size effects.
Except for a brief period in the late '80s, Dr. Palmer was never known for hitting things with 'superhuman strength'. He might come down "like a hammer" because he'd be at his small size but with the force of his full 180 lbs. His strength would fluctuate, though, depending on his mass. It just had Ray's normal strength as his maximum.

The problem with the circumstance bonus method is that for people like the Atom and the original Doll Man, they did all their crime fighting while shrunk. The "circumstance" was all the time, which shouldn't get a circumstance bonus. Which is why I handled it with Advantages-as-Powers.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by Ken »

JDRook wrote: Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:12 am While Ray Palmer can at best be described as a spiritual successor to Al Pratt's original Atom, Ryan Choi is absolutely a direct and deliberate copy of Palmer. Choi was a fan of Palmer the scientist, corresponding with him and even coming to his university in Ivy Town, and when Palmer vanished, Choi took his job and eventually his mantle when he found his notes and equipment.
Ray Palmer can be best described as the silver age version of Doll Man, but given the codename of a JSA member. While Barry Allen was similar to Jay Garrick, and Hal Jordan was similar to Alan Scott, and Katar Hol was so similar to Carter Hall that DC has spent the past 30 years trying to convince people they're the same guy, Ray Palmer was not similar to Al Pratt, except, perhaps for the collegiate setting of their stories. Ray Palmer was similar, though, to Darrel Dane. The "trinity" at Quality Comics was Plastic Man, Doll Man, and Blackhawk. Doll Man was one of those who made it most of the way through the golden age. He had some truly Fine art work on his feature. And Ray's covers were stylistically very similar to Darrel's.

Ryan Choi was a weird character. Ray had been given a VERY unsatisfactory 'ending' to his career. And then we're introduced to his successor. Who was not a bad character, but, I think suffered because of he kind of looked like an ethnic replacement for the sake of being an ethnic replacement. He wasn't written that way. He was written as the Atom, without the Atom's baggage. I think if they'd given Ryan Ray's costume (which was originally a part of Ray's equipment, it was made of white star material), he might have successfully done for Ray what Wally had done for Barry.
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Re: JDRook's Revised DCA Builds - Ares! Arsenal! So! Many! Atoms!!!

Post by greycrusader »

That Sullivan Guy wrote: Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:50 pm
Ken wrote: Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:29 am The DCA build is technically wrong, in that the Atom didn't really develop his Atomic Punch until the early '90s, after the JSA had escaped Ragnarok. And in those stories Al said, explicitly that his super strength had worn away. It was also Fatiguing.

As an Atom fan, I found the research done by the DCA writers on the various Atoms to be lacking.

As the writer of the entry in question, I would respond by saying you're assuming the process was more straight-forward and hands-off than it actually was. With over two dozen writers turning in a massive number of characters in short order with the PLs already decided by Jon and Steve before the characters were ever assigned, there were already restraints and creative issue disagreements floating around (not to mention very real and important word count/page space considerations*). This was combined with the personal interests of the developer, which didn't always coincide with existing accurate knowledge and appreciation for all characters equally. For example, I was originally told to make Doctor Fate a PL12. Jon really knew, well, not a great deal about the character, as I found out discussing the matter with him. It took me a three page email to Jon with MANY comic issue citations to convince him otherwise (including referring him to Winninger's write-up in the WWII sourcebook for Mayfair's DC game, as Jon knew Ray a lot better than he knew me), and he still thought I had made Nelson seriously overpowered (but eventually let the matter drop because he figured I knew the character better than he did).

When I turned in the first draft on Pratt, it was for the unpowered mystery man version with a sidebar about introducing his later Atomic Strength (citing the modern pseudo-retcon with Stalker's atomic goon exploding) and then the Atomic Punch (citing the sadly short-lived 90s post-Zero Hour series). I was asked to consolidate the powers for a "classic" modern version and then describe how to strip stuff away to make the original Mysteryman. This was far from the only back-and-forth. The animated discussions about Atom Smasher, Spectre, Wildcat, (modern) Judomaster, and several others were very frustrating at times.

Not my call about what finally got published, but I assure you lackluster research was not a factor (and I imagine this was the same for many of the writers involved). A tremendous amount of stuff I wrote even wound up on the cutting room floor for numerous entries. I'm a JSA fanatic with digital copies of everything covering a 70 year period and physical copies of a good percentage of that, so I took seriously the responsibility of "getting them right."

I didn't do the write-ups for Palmer or Cho, so I can't speak to those.



(*This, above many other factors, was probably the decider on oh so many things in the books. Space for word count isn't a problem on these forums, but it was precious as diamonds on a large complicated book like these were.)
As one of the writers on the books, I can confirm the multi-stage process of getting the characters into print; obviously Steve Kenson and Jon had word count and layout to consider, along with their own impressions of the DC heroes and villains; AND the DC editorial team ALSO were giving them feedback about what was going to appear in the books, including some decisions which really made no sense in-universe but which they acquiesced (such as Lady Shiva being rated as a far superior martial artist than Val Amorr-yeah, the LSH's Karate Kid who shattered a TANK and once subdued SUPERBOY in a grappling hold!!!). And the rules systems was unfamiliar to all of us as well-I mean, 3rd edition is significantly different from the more d20 Modern OGL than the previous versions (PL used to just represent how many points characters were built on). A couple heroes I wrote were changed so their abilities actually were not RAW (Elasti-Woman, for one) to better represent how their powers worked in the comics. And then there was DC again as well-"write the characters to reflect their current/modern appearances", "uh, no, we want more of the iconic, classic versions in their write-ups", and then "ok, so they should be the timeless versions but also have the modern details in them".

And of course this was right before the out-of-left-field New 52 reboot of the whole line.

All my best.
Last edited by greycrusader on Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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