Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Swift! Jenny Sparks! Apollo! The Midnighter!)

Post by Jabroniville »

re: Superheroes "Killing the Real Bastards"
To me, this is a very interesting thing to debate, and often comes up even in regular comics. The Punisher's entire deal is killing people like that, but because he's just a man with guns, he's usually just left killing regular criminals. A handful of heroes have taken an active role in bringing down evil politicians and the like, but these men are often openly corrupt or criminals (like when DD prevented Cherryh from becoming mayor of New York- he was a Kingpin stooge).

The Squadron Supreme is probably the best example of the whole "Why don't heroes just take things over" mentality, and Mark Gruenwald made sure to indicate his mission statement very clearly in the final issue- such a thing was fine, so long as those in charge were fundamentally moral as the Squadron were... but what about when they retired or died? What if anyone ELSE decided they were moral enough to just take over the world and clearly improve it? These things have a tendency to snowball.

Never mind how, like Shock said, intervention from abroad tends to destabilize things and make it even worse. You topple Saddam and create the Islamic State. I remember a lot of Anarchists who suggested that the world would be fixed without governments in charge were all like "Ugh Warlord Theory is wrong"... but we've seen the results of that- Warlords do legitimately become a big problem.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Swift! Jenny Sparks! Apollo! The Midnighter!)

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:38 am
greycrusader wrote:http://toobusythinkingboutcomics.blogsp ... arren.html
P.S. Oh, and I agree with Halloween Jack that Apollo was never quite in the same league as Majestic or Supreme, so I too would have gone with PL 13 for him, though there were the occasions where he got "super-charged" with solar energy, taking him above his usual power levels, but I think that could be accomplished by stacking on a few Extras and Enhanced Advantages.
haha, well, as both of you are much more well-versed on the subject than I am, and I am loathe to elevate every character to huge PLs if I can help it anyways, I'll defer to the two of you. It's just a bunch more work to take my Majestic/Supreme template and shunt everything down a notch, but whatever :).
The problem with Apollo is that it's almost impossible to actually gauge his relative power because he never actually fought anyone of note for the longest time. Jenny calls him a "Majestic Class Superhuman" at one point and compares him to The High from Ellis' Stormwatch run, but apart from that lip service he never really got into fights with other big name heroes. If he'd actually had a fight with Majestic or Superman it might have cemented his power level, but overall he really didn't get as many big showings that didn't involve him first over-charging in the sun first.

Ironically, probably the most big name hero Apollo ever fought was Captain Atom, right before the Wildstorm Universe got rebooted. According to Captain Atom, Majestic wasn't quite Superman-strong, but was close enough that Atom felt outclassed in a pure slugfest. Likewise, when Atom went up against Apollo, Atom was worried Apollo was going to kill him due to his combination of power and ruthlessness. More worried than Majestic, actually, and Atom was forced to use a trick to take Apollo out. But given how all over the place Captain Atom's power level is, PL 13 might be a good fit. Either he's a PL 14 who only hits his full caps under certain circumstances, or he's a PL 13 that can break his PL limit with an overcharge of solar energy.

Now, after the Wildstorm Reboot there was an event called DC / WS Dream War where the Wildstorm Universe basically got invaded by versions of DC Heroes summoned by a young kid who wanted "real heroes". Given the portrayal of the kid and that Giffen was writing it, it was likely a Superboy Prime-esque "take that" to readers". In any case, in that crossover Apollo briefly traded punches with the summoned version of Martian Manhunter before Wonder Woman restrained him with her lasso, and then J'onn and Diana knocked Apollo out by punching him together. Later on, Apollo managed to survive against a summoned version of Doomsday long enough for Superman and Majestic to show up, and the three of them managed to eventually take Doomsday down.

They never explicitly said "Apollo is weaker than Majestic and Superman" and him fighting alongside them that way was likely meant to imply general equal power levels, but the fight with J'onn and Diana might reflect that he's more on their level and can just up himself to Superman and Majestic levels with a sufficient sun charge.

There's no real "right" answer here.
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RainOnTheSun
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Swift! Jenny Sparks! Apollo! The Midnighter!)

Post by RainOnTheSun »

I'd generally expect Manhunter and Wonder Woman together to be able to take down Superman, too.
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Jack Hawksmoor

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image
Image

JACK HAWKSMOOR
Created By:
Warren Ellis & Tom Raney
First Appearance: StormWatch #37 (July 1996)
Role: City-Controller
Marvel Character Most Ripped Off: None
'90s Ratio: 4/10 (fights with no costume)
Group Affiliations: StormWatch, The Authority
PL 13 (317)
STRENGTH
6/8 STAMINA 6/10 AGILITY 6
FIGHTING 12 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Acrobatics 5 (+11)
Athletics 8 (+16)
Deception 4 (+8)
Expertise (World Events) 10 (+12)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 6 (+10)
Perception 9 (+12)
Persuasion 3 (+7)
Stealth 2 (+8)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Diehard, Evasion, Extraordinary Effort, Fearless, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Initiative, Move-By Action, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 2

Powers:
"Talks To Cities"
Comprehend 4 (Speak To & Understand Cities, Speak to & Understand Languages) [8]
Senses 6 (Danger Sense, Extended Vision 2, Accurate Ranged Touch) (Flaws: Source- Cities) [3]
Postcognition 4 (Flaws: Source- Cities, Limited to Events Seen By Objects in Cities) [1]
Remote Sensing (Vision, Hearing) 10 (Flaws: Source- Cities) [20]

"The God of Cities"
Enhanced Strength 2 (Flaws: Source- Cities) [2]
Enhanced Stamina 4 (Flaws: Source- Cities) [4]

Speed 6 (120 mph) (Flaws: Source- Cities) (3) -- [4]
  • AE: Leaping 6 (500 feet) (Flaws: Source- Cities) (3)
Movement 1 (Environmental Adaptation- Urban Landscapes) [2]
Movement 5 (Sure-Footed, Wall-Crawling 2, Safe Fall, Permeate) (Flaws: Limited to Urban Materials) [5]
"Breathe Concrete" Immunity 2 (Drowning, Suffocation) (Flaws: Source- Cities) [1]
"Renovate Cities" Transform 15 (City to Another Type of City) (Extras: Continuous) [60]

"Hands From Skyscrapers" Snare 13 (Feats: Reversible) (Extras: Area- 60ft. Shapeable +2, Selective) (Flaws: Source- Cities) (66) -- [71]
  • AE: Move Object 16 (Extras: Perception-Ranged) (Flaws: Limited to Urban Materials) (32)
  • AE: "Erupting Building" Blast 13 (Extras: Area- 120ft. Burst +3) (Flaws: Source- Cities) (52)
  • AE: "The City Rises" Blast 13 (Extras: Area- 120ft. Shapeable +3) (Flaws: Source- Cities) (52)
  • AE: Teleport 12 (Extras: Accurate, Extended) (Quirks: Limited to From City to City or Within Cities) (47)
  • AE: Debris Blast 16 (Feats: Accurate 2, Increased Range 2, Indirect 4- Any Direction) (38)
Offense:
Unarmed +12 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Within Cities +12 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Building Attacks +13 Area (+13 Ranged Damage, DC 28)
Snare +13 Area (+13 Ranged Affliction, DC 23)
Debris Blast +10 (+16 Ranged Damage, DC 31)
Initiative +10

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +12 (DC 22), Toughness +10 (+6 Outside of Cities), Fortitude +12 (+8 Outside of Cities), Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Fixing the World)- The Authority believe in fixing the world by any means necessary.
Relationship (The Engineer)
Responsibility (God of Cities)- Jack feels obligated to do things to help out cities.

Total: Abilities: 86 / Skills: 50--25 / Advantages: 12 / Powers: 181 / Defenses: 13 (317)

-So Jack Hawksmoor ended up being one of the iconic members of the Authority, and a true example of the discoveries yet to be made in the industry- Warren Ellis, probably cognizant of the fact that original power-sets hadn't been made for YEARS it seemed like, somehow came up with "City Controller" and made this weirdo urban shaman type guy one of the more original things seen in comics. All the way back in 1996! Ellis says he came up with the idea when he realized that most modern heroes fight in cities- Hawksmoor is thus playing with that notion by making the actual city the source of his powers.

-So Jack was created in a StormWatch issue, and was given powers via alien experimentation- he now had the ability to interact with cities in bizarre ways- "Speaking" to them and gaining powers that involved the cities themselves. Notably, he once turned the city of Tokyo into a GIANT ROBOT, defeating Kansas City in a fight. Warren Ellis could have retired right here and been known as one of the top ten writers in comics history, but nope- there's more!

-Jack ends up finding his way onto The Authority, becoming the guy who runs off solo and does cool stuff while the other mow down villains. He went from a reluctant killer to a joyful one, and he's said to hate most superheroes because of how they "look down" on normal people (says the guy leading the team that literally took over the world). When Jenny Sparks died, he took over the Authority, leading them against corrupt governments the world over. In the end, he appointed himself President of the United States and more or less became a dictator, but like... a positive one, in the view of The Authority book. Most other books treated him like a villain, I guess. Probably the whole "mass murder my enemies while declaring myself the world leader in a coup" thing.

-Jack Hawksmoor is one of those characters who can really test a game system's ability to represent powers (there's a reason one of Green Ronin's official big heroes in Mutants & Masterminds- Doctor Metropolis- directly rips him off)- the ability to speak to, aide, and move around CITIES is remarkably unique and puts a lot of pressure on the system. He's incredibly expensive, as he probably should be, given all the stuff he can do- attacking people with debris is either a PL 13 Blast or an Area Attack, and he can also ensnare others or teleport across cities. Then he can Transform their very essence (a massive, 60-point Transform effect), or just move about urban landscapes with ease (a combination of movement-based powers, the Movement power itself, and Immunities). And then you have a lot of sensory powers, the ability to see whatever a city "sees" and know whatever a city "knows", Comprehend, and more!
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ian Turner
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Re: The Midnighter

Post by Ian Turner »

Ares wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:37 am To make it work it'd have to be something like the computer gives him likely scenarios and he has to choose from available ones, which means he could often make a mistake if he selected the wrong option. Or that it takes his computer time to run those simulations, and he has to fight on his own at first so that his computer can give him 5 or 6 tactical scenarios to use, and he he goes with the available one.
Now that would be interesting. He fights defensively, while he's analyzing your style and finding all the weak points, and after 30 seconds or so, his super-fast computer-brain has it all worked out and he unleashes the whoop-ass. Not before, cause he's not precognitive. He's got to see what you've got, before he can counter it. That could be a fun character. Perhaps each round he stalls, the computer-brain is learning more about your fighting technique, and the bigger his bonuses get, up to a cap based on what his mostly-human body can actually physically accomplish.

That could be a fun character.
There's also the fact that there should be limits on what the computer can predict because it can only know so much. Like, a fight with Iron Fist should have Midnighter think he's fighting just a human level martial artist, and his computer should make predictions as such . . . and so he should have no idea what's going to happen when that glowing chi fist smacks him in the face.
Also true. Although some of that would be situational. If he had spent any time on Marvel Earth, he'd probably have heard about it, but if he was fresh out of the Bleed from Somewhere Else, he'd be in for a shock. Same with Karate Kid, as you mention, if only because Karate Kid has mastered dozens of alien martial arts forms, that Midnighter won't have in his database, and have to figure out by getting smacked around by them.

(It was later established (after his death, actually) that Karate Kid trained on Lythyl, a world that has extradimensional pockets that exist outside of regular time and space, and in which a person can train for subjective *decades* and come out moments later, no older than they went in, because time doesn't work the same way there! And so, a couple decades after he was introduced as a *teenager* who somehow had mastered dozens of martial arts forms that individually took many years to master, Levitz kind of found a way to rationalize it! I love that sort of retcon.)

And, now we have John Hawksmoor. I remember loving the idea of street shamen and urban elementals from Shadowrun or Werewolf: the Apocalypse's Glass Walker tribe, and so it was neat seeing it come over to comic books (who often seem to be a couple years behind the curve, creatively, it seems).

Wasn't a fan of how some of the latest batch of characters seemed to be based on imagery from the time, like Hawksmoors sneaker-treads-for-feet, based on some Nike add that was *everywhere* at the time of a dude with sneaker treads on his bare feet running up buildings or whatever, or that lady from Planetary who seemed to be Trinity, from the first five minutes of the Matrix movie, only in a comic book.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Swift! Jenny Sparks! Apollo! The Midnighter!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Ares wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:52 am Superheroes tend to not change the world in amazing ways because readers and viewers want the world the heroes inhabit to be recognizable. If Tony Stark actually developed ARC Reactor technology to the point that it could be powering cars and cities, putting other forms of power out of business, it would radically change the Marvel Universe. Likewise, the fallout from something like the Thanos Snap should have left the MCU unrecognizable to normal people, even after everyone was restored, but in Spider-Man Homecoming, the world is back to normal with only a few mentions of what happened.

At the same time, superheroes do have a moral obligation to NOT change the world too much. Even if villains like the Joker were executed like they were supposed to and guys like Reed Richards and Tony Stark developed revolutions in technology and helped finance cures for cancer, there would be a moral imperative for superheroes to act the way they do in the comics. Superheroes are, at their core, first-responders. They show up where there's people in danger, they rescue said people and then deal with whatever first put those people in danger. But given the power they often have, it's important for them to act with restraint.
One of the best explanation I saw for why Reed or Tony don't release their technology was from Blue Code when the titular team of cops started pulling out the big guns to stop the Absorbing Man and someone commented how even using one of those once would put a pretty big dent in the NYPD budget.
In some issues of F4 there was a similar idea: the super-technology would be so insanely expensive to mass-produce that Reed is witholding the patents until he can figure out a way to make things like antigravity engines feasable.
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Ken
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (The Authority! Swift! Jenny Sparks! Apollo!)

Post by Ken »

Sidious wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:51 pm I think the best thing, in my opinion, is that most of the Wildstorm influences in the main DC universe have all been phased out after a while. It was almost cringe worthy when Nu52 launched and all these image characters were suddenly in DC and none of them were written well. I'm really glad it's been left to the side.
It's not like the DC heroes were being written well either.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Swift! Jenny Sparks! Apollo! The Midnighter!)

Post by greycrusader »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:38 am
P.S. Oh, and I agree with Halloween Jack that Apollo was never quite in the same league as Majestic or Supreme, so I too would have gone with PL 13 for him, though there were the occasions where he got "super-charged" with solar energy, taking him above his usual power levels, but I think that could be accomplished by stacking on a few Extras and Enhanced Advantages.
haha, well, as both of you are much more well-versed on the subject than I am, and I am loathe to elevate every character to huge PLs if I can help it anyways, I'll defer to the two of you. It's just a bunch more work to take my Majestic/Supreme template and shunt everything down a notch, but whatever :).
Well, as has been discussed in other posts, there's not really a "right" answer here. There was so much author turnover that the Authority's power sets/levels were only vaguely consistent. Add the fact that about half the team had abilities that could vary wildly depending on the circumstances (Apollo with solar energy, Jack and the size of the city he was inside, Jenny and available electrical current), and figuring out exactly what they could and couldn't do is pretty hard to pin down.

But generally speaking, even though Apollo was repeatedly said to be "Majestic (Superman) class", he never had as many really impressive feats, and didn't fight anyone on his level except evil Thor (who took him out with a lightning strike) and then Captain Atom (who easily took him out once Nathaniel stopped holding back). In-universe, it could be justified as Apollo not having nearly as much experience as Majestic or Supreme.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jenny Sparks! Apollo! Midnighter! Jack Hawksmoor!)

Post by Spectrum »

Huh, now I can't stop thinking about a meeting between Hawksmoor and Danny the Street.

and maybe Mogo
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jenny Sparks! Apollo! Midnighter! Jack Hawksmoor!)

Post by M4C8 »

Was there anything said as to Hawksmoor's ability and what constitutes a city? was it something like the population over a certain number or just that it had been officially named a city? (which would imply some sort of subconscious activation)
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jenny Sparks! Apollo! Midnighter! Jack Hawksmoor!)

Post by Ares »

M4C8 wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:24 pm Was there anything said as to Hawksmoor's ability and what constitutes a city? was it something like the population over a certain number or just that it had been officially named a city? (which would imply some sort of subconscious activation)
It seemed to mostly be about size and a minimum level of technology. The Carrier was large enough to qualify as a city for Jack to live on comfortably, so it apparently didn't require a large population for his body to register something as "a city". Later stuff implied that the cities were actually sentient to some degree, as was the Carrier, so that might have had something to do with it too.
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Ian Turner
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Swift! Jenny Sparks! Apollo! The Midnighter!)

Post by Ian Turner »

greycrusader wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:57 pm Well, as has been discussed in other posts, there's not really a "right" answer here. There was so much author turnover that the Authority's power sets/levels were only vaguely consistent. Add the fact that about half the team had abilities that could vary wildly depending on the circumstances (Apollo with solar energy, Jack and the size of the city he was inside, Jenny and available electrical current), and figuring out exactly what they could and couldn't do is pretty hard to pin down.
Yeah, I remember when Swift was introduced, she seemed more or less a reasonably fit flying chick, but then later, in the Authority, she *flew through a brick wall* under her own power (deliberately) without slowing down or being hurt, and I was like, 'whaaaaat?'

Although I can't just point fingers at the Authority here. Every character ever has had this problem, even, in the case of Leifield, from page to page, with the same writer at the helm. :)

Best to just capture the feel you want and find playable and on-theme / appropriate, for game-stat purposes.
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HalloweenJack
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jenny Sparks! Apollo! Midnighter! Jack Hawksmoor!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

Hey Jab, I shot this at you over on FB but you may get it here first


...did you stat up Angela?

I'd figure something like that would have had interesting commentary on it given the rights issues
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Jenny Sparks! Apollo! Midnighter! Jack Hawksmoor!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

HalloweenJack wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:49 pm Hey Jab, I shot this at you over on FB but you may get it here first


...did you stat up Angela?

I'd figure something like that would have had interesting commentary on it given the rights issues
He did stat the Marvel version back in the Thor set and commented on that whole debacle there, I believe.
Jabroniville
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The Engineer

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Man a lot of the art teams draw her pretty NSFW- drawing the nipples right on.

THE ENGINEER (Angelica Spica)
Created By:
Warren Ellis & Tom Raney
First Appearance: StormWatch #48 (May 1997)
Role: Master Builder
Marvel Character Most Ripped Off: None
'90s Ratio: 5/10 (naked lady)
Group Affiliations: StormWatch, The Authority
PL 12 (327)
STRENGTH
4 STAMINA 3/8 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 7 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Deception 4 (+6)
Expertise (Science) 4 (+11)
Perception 4 (+6)
Technology 8 (+15)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Power Attack, Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
"Nanotechnology Being"
Regeneration 10 (Feats: Regrows Limbs) [11]
"Replacement Lungs" Immunity 10 (Life Support) [10]
Flight 7 (250 mph) [14]
Quickness 8 (Flaws: Limited to Mental Tasks) [4]
"The Entire Internet At Her Disposal" Enhanced Advantages 3: Beginner's Luck, Jack of All Trades, Well-Informed [3]

"Reform Matter" Transform 5 (Anything to Anything Else) (Extras: Continuous) [30]
"Form Duplicates" Summon Clones 8 (Extras: 8 Minions +6, Horde, Controlled, Heroic +2) [96]

"Variable Weapons" Variable 8 (Extras: Move Action) [64]
(Typical Powers: Blast 12, Area Damage 12, Force Field 4, Time Travel, "Viruses" Ranged Weaken Stamina or Technology- Progressive)

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Viruses +8 (+14 Ranged Weaken, DC 24)
Blast +8 (+12 Ranged Damage, DC 27)
Area Damage +12 (+12 Damage, DC 27)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +8 (+12 Force Field), Fortitude +10, Will +7

Complications:
Motivation (Fixing the World)- The Authority believe in fixing the world by any means necessary.
Relationship (Jack Hawksmoor)

Total: Abilities: 68 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 232 / Defenses: 11 (327)

-A shiny, metal, naked lady, The Engineer is the second "nigh-omnipotent" member of her team, nearly matching the Doctor's versatility and having less of his weaknesses. Her predecessor was a member of "The Changers", working for The High- he was killed when Henry Bendix dropped a viral bomb on the Changers' base. In his dying moments, this Engineer sent all of his work to Angela Spica, herself a genius who admired superheroes. Finding said work, Angelica distilled a nano-technological solution into a liquid machine form and injected herself with it, becoming a metallic heroine who then joined the Authority. Apparently being somewhat distant from others, she struggled "to find the right balance" between machines and people. She entered into a relationship with Jack Hawksmoor.

-The Engineer, like The Doctor, is vastly powerful and can pretty much do whatever the writer wants, making her a Power-Geek character AND a "get out of jail free" character who can wave her arms around and do whatever is necessary to give the heroes a win. Kind of a dud concept and over-does it on the power- you really have to limit characters like this. No master warrior like the others, she is nonetheless the priciest and most versatile, able to summon duplicates, "Create Viruses" (to people and tech), Blast away by forming whatever weapon is necessary, transform things atomically into other forms, fly, and regenerate from harm.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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