Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Spectrum
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Blood Bros.! The Shroud! Dark Rider & Raider! Marvel Family!)

Post by Spectrum »

Mr TawkyTawny is also the inspiration for one of my favorite Astro City characters, LooneyLeo.

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We rise from the ashes so that new legends can be born.
Jabroniville
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Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Captain Marvel, Jr.

Post by Jabroniville »

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CAPTAIN MARVEL JUNIOR (Freddy Freeman, aka CM3, Shazam)
Created By:
Ed Herron & Mac Raboy
First Appearance: Whiz Comics #25 (Dec. 1941)
Role: Flying Brick, Kid Version
Group Affiliations: The Marvel Family, The Titans, The Outsiders
PL 11 (233)
STRENGTH
14 STAMINA 14 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 5 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Deception 3 (+4)
Expertise (Pop Culture) 4 (+4)
Perception 4 (+9)
Persuasion 4 (+6)
Ranged Combat (Thrown Objects) 5 (+8)

Advantages:
Interpose, Luck, Ranged Attack

Powers:
"The Wisdom of Solomon"
Enhanced Advantages 3: Beginner's Luck, Jack-Of-All-Trades, Well-Informed [3]
Enhanced Skills 2: Arcane Lore 2 (+2) [1]
Comprehend 3 (Languages) [6]

"The Strength of Hercules"
Power-Lifting 4 (6,000 tons) [4]
Enhanced Advantages 2: Fast Grab, Power Attack [2]

"The Stamina of Atlas"
Impervious Toughness 13 [13]
Enhanced Advantages 3: Diehard, Ultimate Toughness Check, Withstand Damage (Trade Off Defenses For Toughness) [3]
Immunity 16 (Life Support, Fatigue Effects, Aging) [16]

"The Power of Zeus"
Features 1: All Attacks Count as Magical [1]
"Shazam Bolt" Damage 11 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Cylinder +2) (Flaws: Distracting) (22) -- [23]
  • AE: "Ground Pound" Affliction 12 (Strength/Athletics; Hindered & Vulnerable/Stunned & Defenseless) (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2, Extra Condition) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Both Must Be Grounded, Instant Recovery) (12)
"The Courage of Achilles"
Immunity 2 (Fear Effects) [2]
Enhanced Advantages 1: Ultimate Will Save [1]
Enhanced Will Check 2 [2]
Impervious Will 5 [5]

"The Speed of Mercury"
Enhanced Advantages 1: Improved Initiative [1]
Flight 15 (60,000 mph) (Feats: Dynamic) (31) -- [35]
  • Dynamic AE: Quickness 8 (Feats: Dynamic) (9)
  • Dynamic AE: Speed 12 (8,000 mph) (Feats: Dynamic) (13)
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) [2]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+14 Damage, DC 29)
Shazam Bolt +11 Area (+11 Damage, DC 26)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +14 (+7 Impervious), Fortitude +14, Will +7

Complications:
Motivation (Fighting Bad Guys)
Responsibility (Human Life)- The Marvel Family will not take a life for any reason.
Involuntary Transformation ("Captain Marvel!")- Freddy Freeman must say the magic phrase to transform into Captain Marvel Junior. Similarly, he will transform back if he says it again. This is not always a good thing, considering that the words are PART OF HIS CODENAME. Freddy is a crippled boy with unimpressive stats (ST -1, STA 0, AGI -2, FIGHTING 2, AWA 1).
Power Loss (Lightning Bolt)- Freddy must speak to call down the Lightning. If struck by the Lightning for any reason, he will revert to non-powered form.
Responsibility (The Wizard)- Shazam often gives the Marvels their marching orders.
Relationship (Billy & Mary Batson, Partners)- Freddy has a thing for Mary (usually), and looks up to The Big Red Cheese.
Responsibility (The King)- Freddy is a HUGE Elvis fan (since the real-life King was a CM Jr. fan). He comes across as a bit old-fashioned and dorky to others.
Enemy (Captain Nazi)- Freddy was crippled by Captain Nazi, who also murdered the boy's grandfather. Therefore, there is a great personal enmity there.
Enemy (Marvel Rogues)- Guys like Black Adam, Doctor Sivana, Mister Mind and other goofballs made up the majority of The Marvel Family's Rogues Gallery.

Total: Abilities: 96 / Skills: 20--10 / Advantages: 3 / Powers: 120 / Defenses: 4 (233)

Captain Marvel, Jr.- DC's Perennial Also-Ran:
-Freddy Freeman has been around a LONG TIME for someone who hasn't had a real push since the 1940s. Freddy is one of the early Junior Heroes, being given to Marvel as a "Kid Focus" type (much like Robin... though of course, Billy HIMSELF was a "Kid Focus" character), and was given his powers after Captain Nazi murdered his grandfather and crippled Freddy- Billy Batson offered to share, given that he's such a nice guy and all. Freddy soon got his own book, and his tales were told in a darker, more serious tone than the elder Marvel's, which is funny considering that he's A) the KID VERSION of an adult-looking hero, and B) has a thing where he can't even say his own name (since his Magic Word of Transformation became "Captain Marvel!" instead of "SHAZAM!"). He was popular (the '40s were BIG for the Marvel Family), but his book got cancelled in 1953 along with the rest of the Fawcett Comics line when falling sales and DC suing them for ripping off Superman finally got to be too much.

-Freddy was basically a minor footnote of a character from that point on, but he had an effect on pop culture in that Elvis Presley himself was a HUGE CM Jr. fan, and based both his iconic haircut and his elaborate sparkly costumes off of Freddy's costume. Freddy reappeared in the 1972 when DC acquired the rights to The Marvel Family, and a decade later he was retconned out by the Crisis, reappearing in 1995 as the brother of Kid Eternity (another Golden Age character). Sadly, since the ADULT Marvel was repeatedly-ignored by DC around this point, his super-buddies were especially hard-up for credibility. It was at this point that he got written out of The Power of Shazam! and added onto Jurgen's Teen Titans run by a fan vote (Jurgens blames a conspiracy of write-ins, and I'd bet money he was correct), taking the nickname "CM3" to avoid the complications of his name causing him to revert to his normal identity. It was relatively unpopular (he had a thing where he flirted with Argent, but stuff over his secret I.D. caused a ruckus and nothing came of it).

Freddy's Modern History:
-After this, Freddy was just "Some Guy"- a plot complication that left a Superman-class being flying around the DC Universe without anything to do, since he was the third-tier character in a Family that was no longer being published with any regularity. It's kind of... uncomfortable for writers to have all these guys kicking around, because when it comes time to write an event story, part of you wonders "hey, aren't there like a dozen people who can lift thousands of tons? Why aren't THEY helping?" And so you get a lot of scenes where Freddy's just "that blue guy lifting that thing behind Captain Marvel as they explain what the MARVEL FAMILY is doing during this big crisis". He got a brief run in that HORRIBLE 2000s Outsiders series, but it went nowhere. Captain Marvel Jr.'s run on the Teen Titans was a standard short one for The Atom's two-year run as team leader, as he didn't really do much, despite being the team's heavy hitter. That's par for the course for the poor kid's career though, as he's never had a big run since the 1940s.

-Freddy got a big part in The Trials of Shazam!, written by Judd Winick- an updating of the story, Freddy became the new... "Shazam" (thank you, Marvel Comics & Copyright Law), replacing a powerless Billy now that Shazam himself (the Wizard) was dead. But Prometheus was disguised as him during Cry For Justice, thus halting another push. Then Billy turned into the Wizard and... I don't really care. That story sounds stupid. It's like... DC puts SUCH a half-assed effort into promoting Captain Marvel HIMSELF, that I can't even really call it worthy of being half of an ass. It's more like a quarter-assed effort. And Freddy gets at-best an eighth of an ass of effort out of DC, by comparison. Now, he's just one of nineteen or so multiracial kids in the "New 52" version of Captain Marvel.

Freddy's Powers:
-Freddy is in an odd place Power Level-wise, seeing as how he's one of The Marvel Family and thus SHOULD be a top-tier Flying Brick, and yet he's hardly ever been afforded any kind of serious respect regarding Power Feats or Good Showings or whatever the Battleboard fans call it these days. So in the end, I see him as yet another in that crowded area of PL 11 Powerhouses, along with Supergirl (Matrix version), Superboy (Connor version), Mary Marvel, Wonder Girl (Cassie probably ended up here at some point), and whoever else DC has added while I wasn't looking. He's powerful enough (with Power Attack) to hurt Superman just a little bit, and tangle with any A-lister for a short period of time, but a concentrated effort would put him out, especially with "only" +14 Toughness. Also, he COULD possibly have Life Support, but much like Thor, the Marvel Family's immunity to the ravages of space depends entirely on the writer.

-And WOW does the DCA official build have a high Power Level- PL 14 for both Mary & Freddy, which is only ONE lower than Billy or SUPERMAN, and two higher than Kara Zor-El or Superboy. Personally, I'd put Supes & Capt. Marvel at PL 14-15 (possibly/probably a bit lower than their LOSH counterparts like Superboy & Mon-El, who operated under Pre-Crisis conditions), with the Kid Sidekicks all a few notches lower- PL 11-12. In the Golden Age, all three Marvels were considered to be at the same level of power, but in modern times there's definitely a tier system in place.

CAPTAIN MARVEL JUNIOR (Freddy Freeman, aka CM3, Shazam)- Golden Age
Created By:
Ed Herron & Mac Raboy
First Appearance: Whiz Comics #25 (Dec. 1941)
Role: Flying Brick, Kid Version
Group Affiliations: The Marvel Family, The Titans, The Outsiders
PL 12 (220)
STRENGTH
18 STAMINA 17 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 5 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Deception 3 (+4)
Expertise (Pop Culture) 4 (+4)
Perception 4 (+9)
Persuasion 4 (+6)
Ranged Combat (Thrown Objects) 5 (+8)

Advantages:
Interpose, Luck, Ranged Attack

Powers:
"The Wisdom of Solomon"
Enhanced Advantages 3: Beginner's Luck, Jack-Of-All-Trades, Well-Informed [3]
Enhanced Skills 2: Arcane Lore 2 (+2) [1]
Comprehend 3 (Languages) [6]

"The Strength of Hercules"
Power-Lifting 4 (6,000 tons) [4]
Enhanced Advantages 2: Fast Grab, Power Attack [2]

"The Stamina of Atlas"
Impervious Toughness 13 [13]
Enhanced Advantages 3: Diehard, Ultimate Toughness Check, Withstand Damage (Trade Off Defenses For Toughness) [3]
Immunity 16 (Life Support, Fatigue Effects, Aging) [16]

"The Power of Zeus"
Features 1: All Attacks Count as Magical [1]

"The Courage of Achilles"
Immunity 2 (Fear Effects) [2]
Enhanced Advantages 1: Ultimate Will Save [1]
Enhanced Will Check 2 [2]
Impervious Will 5 [5]

"The Speed of Mercury"
Enhanced Advantages 1: Improved Initiative [1]
Flight 15 (60,000 mph) (Feats: Dynamic) (31) -- [35]
  • Dynamic AE: Quickness 8 (Feats: Dynamic) (9)
  • Dynamic AE: Speed 12 (8,000 mph) (Feats: Dynamic) (13)
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) [2]

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+18 Damage, DC 33)
Shazam Bolt +11 Area (+11 Damage, DC 26)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +7 (DC 17), Parry +7 (DC 17), Toughness +17 (+7 Impervious), Fortitude +17, Will +7

Complications:
Motivation (Fighting Bad Guys)
Responsibility (Human Life)- The Marvel Family will not take a life for any reason.
Involuntary Transformation ("Captain Marvel!")- Freddy Freeman must say the magic phrase to transform into Captain Marvel Junior. Similarly, he will transform back if he says it again. This is not always a good thing, considering that the words are PART OF HIS CODENAME. Freddy is a crippled boy with unimpressive stats (ST -1, STA 0, AGI -2, FIGHTING 2, AWA 1).
Power Loss (Lightning Bolt)- Freddy must speak to call down the Lightning. If struck by the Lightning for any reason, he will revert to non-powered form.
Responsibility (The Wizard)- Shazam often gives the Marvels their marching orders.
Relationship (Billy & Mary Batson, Partners)- Freddy has a thing for Mary (usually), and looks up to The Big Red Cheese.
Responsibility (The King)- Freddy is a HUGE Elvis fan (since the real-life King was a CM Jr. fan). He comes across as a bit old-fashioned and dorky to others.
Enemy (Captain Nazi)- Freddy was crippled by Captain Nazi, who also murdered the boy's grandfather. Therefore, there is a great personal enmity there.
Enemy (Marvel Rogues)- Guys like Black Adam, Doctor Sivana, Mister Mind and other goofballs made up the majority of The Marvel Family's Rogues Gallery.

Total: Abilities: 106 / Skills: 20--10 / Advantages: 3 / Powers: 97 / Defenses: 4 (220)

-In the Golden Age, both Junior & Mary were assumed to be equal in strength and power to Billy himself- it's a post-1970s variant that both of them share diminished levels of might.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Dark Rider & Raider! Captain Marvel! Marvel Jr.!)

Post by Ares »

Freddy's an interesting case of Fawcett really being on the ball about trying to market to other audiences. Timely Comics deserves some credit for a lot of firsts (Namor was the first true flying brick, Toro the first 'mini-copy' of an adult hero), but Fawcett really perfected the formula. Billy got the initial popularity by having the widest appeal, being a fun superhero anyone of all ages could enjoy. Freddy was then used to tap into the audience for slightly darker, down to Earth stories, as the art for Freddy was more realistic, his status as a homeless, crippled orphan was used quite a bit, and while said stories were never depressing, they did explore things Captain Marvel's stories tended not to.

Freddy also tended to be a bit more melancholy than Billy, which also made sense. Billy had a rough life, lost his parents, but his eternal optimism let him endure most things with a smile. Freddy had to watch Capt. Nazi murder his grandpa and has to carry around a constant reminder of the act with his maimed leg. Freddy was never truly angsty or emo, he would make jokes, he never blamed Billy for what happened (save for Trials of Shazam, which was stupid), but he was more likely to feel things like sadness, get a little depressed, but always found his happiness again. If Billy is an example of someone never letting life get them down, Freddy was someone who let life get him down for brief periods, but only so he could process his feelings and get back up again.

So yeah, while Billy was the "all audiences" character, Freddy tended to appeal to those who wanted some introspection, down to Earth stories and things to be a little bleaker, while Mary was created to appeal to female readers. And it was clear that Mary and Junior weren't sidekicks: they both immediately got their own solo books, being full on spin-off heroes in their own right. Robin didn't get his own solo book until the early 90's, roughly 50 years later.

Regarding the name, it's kind of funny in that the name is the source of a lot of jokes, but in a sense the "________ Junior" has become a shorthand way of saying a character is just a younger/weaker version of another hero. So in some ways, the name has a lot of staying power. But it's also one of those things people point to about Freddy being silly: ie, he can't say his own name. Ironically, the people at DC failed to realize this was the exact reason why naming Captain Marvel "Shazam" is stupid and requires so much back bending to make it work. It actually wasn't that big a deal in the Golden Age, because Freddy was basically the #2 or #3 hero on his planet (depending on whether you liked him or Mary more), with Cap being his world's equivalent of Superman. Thanks to his own adventures and the popularity of Captain Marvel, most people knew who Captain Marvel Junior was, and so introductions were often unnecessary.

There were even a few points where having a different transformation word came in handy. In the animated series, Mr. Mind and Dr. Sivana created a ray that would make the people exposed to it forget the word "Shazam". Freddy just smiled and said, "Captain Marvel", transformed, and broke the device, allowing Billy and Mary to transform as well.

Later, in the Don Newton run, Freddy actually faked out Black Adam, who hadn't really fought Freddy solo before. Since Adam was attacking the Rock of Eternity, Freddy said "It's such a tragedy how you're abusing the powers Shazam gave you!" Black Adam is STUNNED, because Freddy said the Wizard's name without transforming. Junior says "You think we draw our powers from the same entities as you?" He then pulls out a stone slab with names and attributes the Marvels get their powers from. "These are the people that empower us." Adam reads it and blurts out, "Ah hah! Then your magic word is . . . Shazam!? . . . oops!" Then the lightning strikes and Freddy cold-clocks Adam's human form, commenting about how his transformation phrase is different. It was actually a bit of a running gag that people could trick Adam into saying the magic word, and the fact that Junior had the stone slab on him meant he had done it intentionally, showcasing how clever Freddy was.

So yeah, I'm kind of torn about Freddy's name. Part of me wants to keep it as part of a tradition, part of me wants to rename him Lt. Marvel to avoid the issue, pay homage to the original Lt. Marvels and maintain the "Captain Marvel but smaller" theme. Regardless, I'd keep his transformation phrase as "Captain Marvel".

It was also kind of interesting how some villains were more Junior's enemies than Cap's. While Captain Nazi started out as a Captain Marvel villain, his deliberate cruelty that left Freddy crippled and his grandpa dead made Nazi Junior's primary foe. A recurring villain was also Sabbac, basically a demonic version of Captain Marvel, and one that could work with the right tweaks (and not the tryhard edgelord stuff Winick went with).

Minor correction, but Captain Marvel Junior and Kid Eternity were revealed to be brothers in the late 70s, not the 90s. This occurred during the Don Newton Shazam run I rave about, where DC had just acquired the rights to Kid Eternity. It was actually a stroke of genius to make Junior and the Kid (sounds like a rock band) brothers. Otto Binder had created and written both characters, both of them had their transformation phrase as part of their name, and both of them were attacked by Nazi's (Capt. Nazi for Freddy, a German U-Boat for the Kid). There was actually a fun build-up to the reveal, where Kid Eternity secretly helped the Marvel Family out on several missions, until the big reveal where Junior managed to confront Kid Eternity and get the whole story.

They even managed to tie in some EXTRA continuity in two ways. See, the origin for Kid Eternity was that he'd died before his time, because the spirit sent to watch over him had screwed up, thus resulting in the Kid's death decades early. What the writing team decided was that the person that was supposed to die was FREDDY, as Captain Nazi was meant to kill him. But because of the screw up, Kid got his powers and Freddy was allowed to live because the Kid had effectively died in his place, and Captain Marvel was able to empower him to save his life. As a result, because of the "screw up", the world got two heroes instead of losing one young man, with Shazam suggestion that a higher power had a hand in it.

The second way was because in the 40's Junior had an adventure where he encountered Sherlock Holmes, who vanished at the end of it. The idea here is that Kid Eternity had ALWAYS been looking out for his brother, had sent Sherlock Holmes to help him out, and had thus helped Freddy and the Marvels out when they needed it. Because of this, the Kid was adopted into the extended Marvel Family.

Stuff like THIS is one reason I love the Don Newton Marvel Family run. It pays attention to continuity, uses it in logical ways to tell a fun story, and makes this happy accident seem like something intended from the start (it wasn't, Kid Eternity belonged to a different company than Fawcett originally).

Power Wise, Freddy is in kind of a rough spot. Originally he and Mary were equal in power to Cap, because they were off having their own adventures and were heroes in their own right. I'd probably go the Jab route where Freddy is a tier below Cap, while Mary is on Cap's level. So Mary is in the modern Supergirl/Power Girl top tier, while Freddy is more in the "Thing" level of power, closer to Superboy, Wonder Girl, and the other teen heroes. Though I've got my own take on the topic naturally that I'll get into in my own Marvel Family thread.

And lastly, as for why no one recognizes Freddy as Captain Marvel Jr., I go with the same reason no one ever recognizes Usagi is Sailor Moon: magic. My take is that as long as people don't see the transformation take place, they'll never make the connection that Billy, Mary, Freddy or Adam are Captain Marvel, Mary Marvel, Junior and Black Adam. If Mary ran into an alley out of visual range, transformed, and Mary Marvel flew out, people wouldn't think "Wow, Mary Batson/Bromfield is Mary Marvel!" They'd think "Wow, Mary Marvel just saved that young girl from being hit by lightning and is off to save the day somewhere". It's also why Freddy doesn't just wear street clothes over his Captain Marvel Junior costume and lead a normal life: people would recognize him as Captain Marvel Junior, and would laugh when he tries to explain that he's really Freddy Freeman. You have to actually watch the change happen in order to understand what's happened, because otherwise the magic prevents you from connecting the dots.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Ken
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Dark Rider & Raider! Captain Marvel! Marvel Jr.!)

Post by Ken »

Freddy and Mary have a problem. Back in Fawcett's heyday they were primarily solo characters. Captain Marvel Jr., solo, was the lead character in 109 issues of Master Comics, as well as 119 issues of Captain Marvel Jr.. That's a lot of comics, and it doesn't even begin to cover other books he had solo stories. Mary wasn't as successful, only 50 issues of Wow Comics and 28, IIRC, of Mary Marvel.
But when one considers how long the solo books of Spy Smasher, Bulletman, and Ibis lasted....

But the thing is, Marvel Family ran for 89 issues. So yes, that's a lot of stories with the three of them. But from issue #6 to #9 and again from #20 to issue #54, each issue also contained a solo story for each of the three of them. So that's 38 more solo stories for both Mary and Freddy besides the 228 and 78 from their regular features.

You see, Captain Marvel Jr. and Mary Marvel weren't sidekicks. They were attempts to, well, catch lightning in a bottle a second and third time. Billy's stories were focused around Billy's life as a reporter, as much as anything, and the C.C.Beck style is famously cartoony. Freddy's stories were about a crippled kid who worked selling newspapers and living in a boarding house. Billy's stories were generally more upscale. Freddy's were more down to Earth, almost Dickensian. They weren't trying to appeal to the same audience. They were trying to sell a general concept to different audiences. Mary's stories were more girly. Hoppy the Marvel Bunny was the funny animal version. General concept to different audiences.

It's more than a little analogous to the relationship between Superman, Superboy, and Supergirl. Superboy, the teenaged Clark Kent COULDN'T appear with Superman, and Supergirl was a separate character who appeared in her own stories. She wasn't Superman's sidekick. And say what you will about Captain Marvel being a Superman knock-off, you can be sure as sugar that DC "retconned" Superboy into existence in 1945 because Captain Marvel Junior's comics were selling. And writer Otto Binder worked on both the creation of Mary Marvel AND Supergirl; he knew what he was doing: trying to sell a general concept to a different audience.

But today, in an era where every member of the Batman family has at least one solo book, and the same for Superman's super family, creator's will only deal with the secondary Marvels as part of the Marvel Family. Just like people judge Mr. Tawny silly, they only judge Mary and Freddy as Billy's sidekicks. And that isn't right.

You know, Elvis Presley isn't known for his collection of Marvel Family comics; only his collection of Captain Marvel Jr. comics.
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Goldar
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Dark Rider & Raider! Captain Marvel! Marvel Jr.!)

Post by Goldar »

FUN FACT: Fred MacMurray was reportedly the male image used for Captain Marvel's Face/build, while Judy Garland was used for Mary Marvel!
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Dark Rider & Raider! Captain Marvel! Marvel Jr.!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Neato! Some excellent posts lately! Who would have guessed that Ares and Ken would have such elaborate opinions of the Marvel Family :)?

Yeah, I hadn't thought of Freddy as "Dickensian", but that works. I didn't even know he was selling newspapers and living in a boarding house; just that his stories were seen as "darker" and more serious.

Is the "Going to the Rock of Eternity" thing something that only the Marvels can do? Like, do they simply appear there at any point, or are they summoned by Shazam? How much of that is a function of the Rock itself?
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Mary Marvel

Post by Jabroniville »

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GOOD GOD!! Is there a sexier comic book picture in the entire universe? White Mary looks like the sweetest, most innocent darling girl you could ever hope to meet- the doting mother of your children, and the perfect wife. Black Mary looks like she would [REDACTED], and [REDACTED] grab some [REDACTED] and then [REDACTED] chafing [REDACTED] and you'd never recover! It's like the two most perfect women ever in one picture.

MARY MARVEL (Mary Batson, aka Mary Bromfield, Captain Marvel II, Black Mary)
Created By:
Otto Binder & Marc Swayze
First Appearance: Captain Marvel Adventures #18 (Dec. 1942)
Role: Flying Brick, Girl Version of Hero, Good Girl
Group Affiliations: The Marvel Family, The Super-Buddies
PL 12 (248)
STRENGTH
14 STAMINA 14 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 9 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 6 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 1 (+5)
Deception 3 (+6)
Persuasion 4 (+7)
Expertise (Pop Culture) 2 (+4)
Perception 1 (+7)
Insight 1 (+7)

Advantages:
Defensive Attack, Interpose, Luck, Ranged Attack

Powers:
"The Wisdom of Solomon"
Enhanced Advantages 3: Beginner's Luck, Jack-Of-All-Trades, Well-Informed [3]
Enhanced Skills 2: Arcane Lore 2 (+4) [1]
Comprehend 3 (Languages) [6]

"The Strength of Hercules"
Power-Lifting 4 (6,000 tons) [4]
Enhanced Advantages 2: Fast Grab, Power Attack [2]

"The Stamina of Atlas"
Impervious Toughness 13 [13]
Enhanced Advantages 3: Diehard, Ultimate Toughness Check, Withstand Damage (Trade Off Defenses For Toughness) [3]
Immunity 16 (Life Support, Fatigue Effects, Aging) [16]

"The Power of Zeus"
Features 1: All Attacks Count as Magical [1]
"Shazam Bolt" Damage 11 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Cylinder +2) (Flaws: Distracting) (22) -- [23]
  • AE: "Ground Pound" Affliction 12 (Strength/Athletics; Hindered & Vulnerable/Stunned & Defenseless) (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2, Extra Condition) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Both Must Be Grounded, Instant Recovery) (12)
"The Courage of Achilles"
Immunity 2 (Fear Effects) [2]
Enhanced Advantages 1: Ultimate Will Save [1]
Enhanced Will Check 2 [2]
Impervious Will 5 [5]

"The Speed of Mercury"
Enhanced Advantages 1: Improved Initiative [1]
Flight 15 (60,000 mph) (Feats: Dynamic) (31) -- [35]
  • Dynamic AE: Quickness 8 (Feats: Dynamic) (9)
  • Dynamic AE: Speed 12 (8,000 mph) (Feats: Dynamic) (13)
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) [2]

Offense:
Unarmed +9 (+14 Damage, DC 29)
Shazam Bolt +9 (+14 Damage, DC 29)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +14 (+7 Impervious), Fortitude +14, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Fighting Bad Guys)
Responsibility (Human Life)- The Marvel Family will not take a life for any reason.
Involuntary Transformation ("SHAZAM!")- Mary Batson must say the magic word to change into Mary Marvel. Similarly, she will transform back if she says it again. Mary is a normal girl with unimpressive stats (ST 0, STA 0, AGI 2, FIGHTING 2, AWA 2).
Power Loss (Lightning Bolt)- Mary must speak to call down the Lightning. If struck by the Lightning for any reason, she will revert to non-powered form.
Responsibility (The Wizard)- Shazam often gives the Marvels their marching orders.
Relationship (Billy Batson & Freddy Freeman, Partners)- Freddy has a thing for Mary (usually).
Enemy (Marvel Rogues)- Guys like Black Adam, Doctor Sivana, Mister Mind and other goofballs made up the majority of The Marvel Family's Rogues Gallery.

Total: Abilities: 108 / Skills: 12--6 / Advantages: 4 / Powers: 120 / Defenses: 10 (248)

Mary Marvel- The First Distaff Counterpart Heroine?:
-Mary Marvel was introduced after Captain Marvel & Marvel Jr., and is one of the first Distaff Counterparts in comic books- a girl version of the main hero (and she's also one of the earliest powerful female superheroes). Based visually off of Judy Garland, she got her own comic by 1945, and may have led to the creation of Supergirl a few years later. Here, Mary Blomfield encounters Billy Batson, and discovers that the two are brother and sister- separated for years! Curiously, Mary shared the title of "Captain Marvel" with Billy back in the day- it wasn't until *1999* that they officially started calling her Mary Marvel! Mary was Billy's twin, sent off to live with a wealthy family (Sarah Primm, the woman in charge of the orphaned twins, decided that at least ONE needed to have a home- she reveals Mary's existence to Billy on her death bed). Billy & Freddy uncover Mary (who has the other piece of a broken locket that Billy owns- the classic "How To Reunite Family Members" trick), who is revealed to be able to transform into a Marvel along with them.

-Happily reunited, Mary is immediately offered her piece of the "Shazam" powers, leaving her real first name as part of the codename! She was given a sidekick in the kindly "Uncle Marvel" and his niece Freckles, and appeared in her own book and the books of her partners, ultimately vanishing with them for decades when Fawcett dropped the line.

-DC brought the Marvels back in 1972, giving them their own book- Mary would never be a solo star again. The feature lasted about ten years (appearing in the backs of other books for part of that), and then her & Freddy disappeared in the Post-Crisis world, with only Captain Marvel showing up at first. They would only reappear in the 1994 Jerry Ordway Power of Shazam! graphic novel- after a few years, she would drop her red outfit and start wearing white. The updated Post-Crisis continuity keeps her origin story mostly the same, but Primm is the maid of the wealthy Bromfields, and is killed by thugs in the new version. But along with the other Marvels, she was just a minor background character, rarely getting the limelight. Poor Mary could only watch as Wonder Woman, Supergirl, Donna Troy, Starfire & others all eclipsed her on the DC side, and even MORE females on the Marvel Comics side! Hell, DC not only has too many Flying Bricks, it has too many FEMALE Flying Bricks- WW, Supergirl, Donna, Wonder Girl, Miss Martian, Power Girl, and more!

Post-2000 Mary Marvel:
-Mary became one of the more curious side-characters in DC in the post-2000 era. With the Shazam! feature cancelled in 1999, and Captain Marvel & Black Adam joining the JSA series without her, she was effectively an orphaned character like Freddy, popping up at random in side-book here and there. She appeared in Formerly Known as the Justice League, a semi-parody of the Giffen/DeMatteis "BWA-HA-HA!" JLA, though she was never a part of the '80s squad- replacing Billy in that book's roster, she juxptaposes the modern characters with a more "Golden Age" personality. Like Billy, she kinda got left with the "Old-Fashioned" persona. And this, of course, made her PERFECT for later writers' "Break the Cutie" storylines. She was gonna be on the updated Johns/Eaglesham/Ross JSA, but was cut at the last minute along with Billy & Atom-Smasher. Really too bad, since Mary had the potential to be the classic cute old-fashioned type of heroine that guys could STILL be into... but NO, comics has to be full of cranky-pantses and Bad Girls. Us Good Girl lovers need love too, dammit! Where are all the Bettys in this world of Veronicas? *sob*!

-And then, of course, the inevitable- you have a cute, sweethearted female character who represents the older, "innocent" hera of comics... naturally, if you're a modern comic book writer, you HAVE to darken her up and break her will! was that we got a "Black Mary"- the natural modern story-arc for an impossibly-innocent sweet girl. Here, Mary got the sexiest outfit EVER, wearing black lace-up boots and a short skirt as she steals Black Adam's powers and becomes altered by the manipulations of several super-villains. Ultimately, she comes under the control of Darkseid... then gains the single worst costume in the history of comic books. This idiotic all-leather look just comes off as "trying too hard" fanservice, made worse by several ponytails poking out of a leather skullcap. She ends up beaten by Freddy, but pops up evil again in a JSA arc before she is FINALLY de-powered, transformed into a normal teenage girl. This was actually the final appearance of Mary in the old continuity, as the "New 52" era struck and she re-debuted in the new Shazam books.

-Ultimately, like a lot of guys, I dig Mary. She was a cute and sweet "Good Girl" in a world of Bad Girls, and stood out a lot for it. Supergirl was alternately older-seeming, brattier, or more sexualized, while Mary always kind of kept her Golden Age touches, just like her brother did. This naturally makes her even SEXIER when she "goes bad" of course, lol. The only issue of course is that her & Freddy are low-tier superheroes with high-tier powers, making them oddly forgotten in big events.

Mary's Powers:
-I figure Mary as a bit better overall than Freddy, but not by a lot- as Black Mary, she seemed to be a LOT more powerful, as in-story she was handling TONS of heroes at once- but turning evil automatically makes you better at everything (plus she was getting an in-story boost with some new magical powers). Originally, she had the grace of Selena, strength of Hippolyta, skill of Ariadne or Artemis, beauty of Aurora or Aphrodite and wisdom of Minerva, but they soon switched it to the original SHAZAM benefactors.

Image

MARY MARVEL (Mary Batson, aka Mary Bromfield, Captain Marvel II, Black Mary)- Golden Age
Created By:
Otto Binder & Marc Swayze
First Appearance: Captain Marvel Adventures #18 (Dec. 1942)
Role: Flying Brick, Girl Version of Hero, Good Girl
Group Affiliations: The Marvel Family, The Super-Buddies
PL 13 (235)
STRENGTH
18 STAMINA 17 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 6 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 1 (+5)
Deception 3 (+6)
Persuasion 4 (+7)
Expertise (Pop Culture) 2 (+4)
Perception 1 (+7)
Insight 1 (+7)

Advantages:
Defensive Attack, Interpose, Luck, Ranged Attack

Powers:
"The Wisdom of Solomon"
Enhanced Advantages 3: Beginner's Luck, Jack-Of-All-Trades, Well-Informed [3]
Enhanced Skills 2: Arcane Lore 2 (+4) [1]
Comprehend 3 (Languages) [6]

"The Strength of Hercules"
Power-Lifting 4 (6,000 tons) [4]
Enhanced Advantages 2: Fast Grab, Power Attack [2]

"The Stamina of Atlas"
Impervious Toughness 13 [13]
Enhanced Advantages 3: Diehard, Ultimate Toughness Check, Withstand Damage (Trade Off Defenses For Toughness) [3]
Immunity 16 (Life Support, Fatigue Effects, Aging) [16]

"The Power of Zeus"
Features 1: All Attacks Count as Magical [1]

"The Courage of Achilles"
Immunity 2 (Fear Effects) [2]
Enhanced Advantages 1: Ultimate Will Save [1]
Enhanced Will Check 2 [2]
Impervious Will 5 [5]

"The Speed of Mercury"
Enhanced Advantages 1: Improved Initiative [1]
Flight 15 (60,000 mph) (Feats: Dynamic) (31) -- [35]
  • Dynamic AE: Quickness 8 (Feats: Dynamic) (9)
  • Dynamic AE: Speed 12 (8,000 mph) (Feats: Dynamic) (13)
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) [2]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+18 Damage, DC 33)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +17 (+7 Impervious), Fortitude +17, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Fighting Bad Guys)
Responsibility (Human Life)- The Marvel Family will not take a life for any reason.
Involuntary Transformation ("SHAZAM!")- Mary Batson must say the magic word to change into Mary Marvel. Similarly, she will transform back if she says it again. Mary is a normal girl with unimpressive stats (ST 0, STA 0, AGI 2, FIGHTING 2, AWA 2).
Power Loss (Lightning Bolt)- Mary must speak to call down the Lightning. If struck by the Lightning for any reason, she will revert to non-powered form.
Responsibility (The Wizard)- Shazam often gives the Marvels their marching orders.
Relationship (Billy Batson & Freddy Freeman, Partners)- Freddy has a thing for Mary (usually).
Enemy (Marvel Rogues)- Guys like Black Adam, Doctor Sivana, Mister Mind and other goofballs made up the majority of The Marvel Family's Rogues Gallery.

Total: Abilities: 120 / Skills: 12--6 / Advantages: 4 / Powers: 97 / Defenses: 8 (235)

-Like Freddy, Mary is assumed to be of equal power to Billy in the Golden Age- just with less experience.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Aug 23, 2022 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Captain Marvel! Capt. Marvel Jr.! Mary Marvel!)

Post by scc »

I agree about that Mary Marvel picture. It is one of the hottest pictures ever in comics. Is that the AT&T girl dressed as Mary Marvel? The first time I was really exposed to Mary Marvel was in the Formerly Known as the Justice League comic. That was a really fun comic. She did whip Captain Atom's butt in that comic when she was mind controlled so being evil does increase power level. She is always rated high in every DC comic's RPG that I have seen. That being said I don't see her being close to Superman and Captain Marvel as far as power level goes, at least when she is good.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Captain Marvel! Capt. Marvel Jr.! Mary Marvel!)

Post by Ares »

Mary wasn't quite the first distaff counterpart (Hawkgirl beat her by at least a few months), but she was the first one to get her own spin off series. It always annoyed me that comics are said to exclude girls when they've been trying to appeal to girls since the beginning.

I always felt bad for Mary because, as Jab said, if Cap didn't get treated well by DC, Mary and Freddy really got the short end of the stick. Though oddly enough, Mary was the only person in Geoff John's "Curse of Shazam" series to come out of it with any dignity, since she was basically a combination of some of Mary's best aspects: she was sweet, thoughtful and caring, but she also had a spine, would stand up to bullies, and had no problem telling off Nu-Billy for being a jerk.

It's interesting the perception of who Mary is, because while she was sweetness personified, she was also very clever, brave and self-reliant. In her initial appearance, she actually showed she was less impulsive than Billy and Freddy, who learned a bit of patience from her. She was also indirectly responsible for Uncle Dudley involved in the Marvel's life. See, Mary had a diary that she called "The Book of Good Deeds" where she wrote down her adventures. Well, Uncle Dudley was a con-artist who discovered the book and tried to pass himself off as Mary's uncle from California, but Mary, Billy and Freddy saw through this instantly. However, since he was, as they put it, "such a lovable old fraud", they pretended to go along with it, and accepted him as part of the family. Dudley actually became the Marvel Family's "manager" who would set up meetings for them and the like with public officials.

It's stuff like this that makes me annoyed that Billy, Mary and Freddy are often portrayed as being gullible or naive. I'm sorry, what? Billy lost his parents to criminals at age 8, spent 2-to-4 years living on the street, and since then has had to deal with people actively trying to murder him on a weekly, if not daily, basis. Freddy watched a superpowered Nazi murder his grandfather and cripple him for life. Mary got raised in a good home by wealthy people, but while more sheltered from the world than Billy and Freddy, she was also smart, self-reliant, and new how to take care of herself. In some ways, dealing with the wealthier side of things made her able to read people and she knew how awful people could be.

The Marvel Family isn't cheerful and optimistic because they're blind to the problems of the world. They know full well how bad people can be, how bad some people have it. But they also know how much good is in the world, so they choose to embrace it and promote it to make the world better. It's an informed, active optimism rather than a naive, ignorant one.

So Mary should definitely be sweetness personified, but she shouldn't be naive by any stretch.

They really did Mary wrong during Countdown to Final Crisis and in Final Crisis itself. She willingly went evil and down a dark path, but if she'd learned her lesson and come out stronger for it, that'd be one thing. But having her choose to be evil at the end was just horrible, especially since that went against the idea Grant Morrison had for her, which was to be possessed and forced into evil. And then the JSA story that followed up with her made her evil again.

It actively HURTS to see the Marvel Family get such poor treatment. Billy, Mary and Freddy should be the LAST people to ever turn evil, and between their innate goodness, strength of character, willpower and their magical powers, having them controlled like that should have to be some major undertaking. But if the Marvel's are actually given the credit and respect they're due, then you have to put them in the same level of respect as Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, and DC is largely unwilling to do that.

As for the flying brick issue, it's one reason why I kind of prefer Wonder Woman and Donna Troy go back to being unable to fly, at most being able to glide on air currents (or do the wire-fu kung fu theater leaps). Partially because I think having Diana be a flying, leaping and flipping fighter more akin to Spider-Man is more visually interesting, and partially because Diana didn't start flying until they actively ripped off Mary Marvel's original powerset and giving it to Diana. Mary's original powerset included:

Selene = Grace
Hippolyta = Strength
Artemis = Skill
Zephyrus = Speed / Flight
Aphrodite = Beauty
Minerva = Wisdom

I'll admit, changing them over to the same Shazam powerset Billy and Freddy shared was the right idea. But when they revamp Diana in the 80s, they specifically have the following gods and goddesses grant her the following abilities:

Hesita = Truth
Demeter = Strength / Endurance
Artemis = Skill / Animal Kinship
Hermes = Speed / Flight
Aphrodite = Beauty
Athena = Wisdom

So yeah. DC pretty much just handed Diana Mary's old powerset. Kind of makes it appropriate that the Superwoman of the Crisis on Two-Earths movie was actually an evil version of Mary Marvel. I'm sure that would get Jab to watch the movie.

But yeah, overall Mary is a great character and did some groundbreaking stuff for her time. She deserves a lot better than what she got.
scc wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:42 pm I agree about that Mary Marvel picture. It is one of the hottest pictures ever in comics. Is that the AT&T girl dressed as Mary Marvel? The first time I was really exposed to Mary Marvel was in the Formerly Known as the Justice League comic. That was a really fun comic. She did whip Captain Atom's butt in that comic when she was mind controlled so being evil does increase power level. She is always rated high in every DC comic's RPG that I have seen. That being said I don't see her being close to Superman and Captain Marvel as far as power level goes, at least when she is good.
Classically, Mary has just been as powerful as Cap and Junior. Post-Crisis it's tended to fluctuate a lot depending on the writer. In Power of Shazam, her and Billy were equally powerful. She was shown as being significantly more powerful than the Linda Danvers Supergirl (to the point that Mary handily defeated the god Quetzalcoatl one on one), but rarely got to do much on her own. Me personally, I'd put her and Cap as equals (the way Supergirl and Powergirl are ostensibly as powerful as Superman), and have Freddy be less powerful than them.

I also wasn't a big fan of Formerly Known as the Justice League or I Can't Believe It's Not Justice League. Billy got portrayed as a condescending jerk, Mary was portrayed as incredibly naive, and it basically seemed like it existed merely to take pot shots at everything while ignoring a lot of continuity (Mary's powers work just fine in Hell). There's rumors that editorial had to step in because the original plan was for them to have Guy Gardner sleep with Mary Marvel, and the loss of her "purity" would cause her Mary Marvel costume to become red again.

A reminder: Mary is 15 at the oldest at that point, and her having an adult body does not change the fact that she's still a 15 year old. It's literally the "well, she looked like she was 18" argument. It's beyond messed up that they planned to do that with her. If they want the Marvels to have relationships with adult heroes, then you hard-set their ages to 18. Otherwise they're teenagers and should not be having sex with adults, regardless of the body they're in.

Sorry, sorry. I just remember that rumor and it creeps me the Hell out.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Captain Marvel! Capt. Marvel Jr.! Mary Marvel!)

Post by Tattooedman »

I've always liked Captain Marvel, including Mary & Jr. Granted, nowhere near Ares, but still a lot of the reasons he lists are the same reasons I enjoy the character.

The only thing I really have to add is I recall it being said during the Power Of Shazam series that Cap's powers are lessened by "sharing it" with Mary & Jr, and that made sense to me in a way. I thought it explained why Cap & crew were just a "little bit" weaker than their counterparts in the Superman Family.
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:45 pm
LOl- "The Tattooed Man"? What kind of ABSOLUTE DILDO would refer to himself as "The Tattooed Man" :P!?!
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Re: Mary Marvel

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 9:56 am Image

GOOD GOD!! Is there a sexier comic book picture in the entire universe? White Mary looks like the sweetest, most innocent darling girl you could ever hope to meet- the doting mother of your children, and the perfect wife. Black Mary looks like she would [REDACTED], and [REDACTED] grab some [REDACTED] and then [REDACTED] chafing [REDACTED] and you'd never recover! It's like the two most perfect women ever in one picture.
Wouldn't the hypothetical perfect woman in that case be one who can switch between the two? Sweetheart outside of the bedroom, tigress in it?
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Captain Marvel! Capt. Marvel Jr.! Mary Marvel!)

Post by Ares »

Tattooedman wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:56 pm I've always liked Captain Marvel, including Mary & Jr. Granted, nowhere near Ares, but still a lot of the reasons he lists are the same reasons I enjoy the character.
This is known as being a "normal, rational and reasonable fan of a character", compared to whatever my obsession with the character counts as. ;)
The only thing I really have to add is I recall it being said during the Power Of Shazam series that Cap's powers are lessened by "sharing it" with Mary & Jr, and that made sense to me in a way. I thought it explained why Cap & crew were just a "little bit" weaker than their counterparts in the Superman Family.
The Power of Shazam series went with the idea that there was one "pool" of power that the Marvel's all shared, and that every time one of them tapped into it, everyone currently powered up got weaker. Originally it was a complete even split, where if Billy and Mary were both powered up, they'd be half as powerful as Cap would be if he were powered up solo. After an event where Shazam was able to free up more power for them, how big the split was inconsistent, but it was clear that having more than one powered up cut their power significantly.

This was done for two reasons: 1) to explain why Freddy didn't just stay powered up all of the time, 2) explain why the Marvel's didn't all immediately help each other out during a crisis.

The problems were several fold.

For one, almost no one outside of Jerry Ordway ever really acknowledged it, and everyone else treated the Marvel's powers as static. You'd occasionally get mention of it (the lackluster Genesis event), but for the most part no one really bothered with it.

Secondly, it made juggling their appearances more of a pain. It'd just require too much coordination to acknowledge that if Junior is off in the Titans, then Cap and Mary are at half power in their appearances elsewhere.

Thirdly, it would logically make sense in almost every instance for Freddy and Mary to never power up, since a single Superman-level person is worth way more than three 1/3rd as powerful people. Imagine a scenario where Captain Marvel is fighting Black Adam over Egypt while Freddy and Mary are in Fawcett, enjoying a walk. They see a bank robbery, and power up to deal with the robbers. Over in Egypt, Black Adam hits Cap in the face with a full force punch, and Cap's head pops like a zit because is power just got cut into 1/3rd. Over in Fawcett, Mary and Freddy deal with the bank robbers and high five each other for a job well done, powering down as Cap's headless corpse drops to the sands.

Basically, it made Mary and Freddy worse than redundant, it made them an active hindrance to Billy. I'd rather them stick with the static power levels and leave the Marvels free to have their own adventures without hindering each other.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Captain Marvel! Capt. Marvel Jr.! Mary Marvel!)

Post by scc »

Ares wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:41 pm Mary wasn't quite the first distaff counterpart (Hawkgirl beat her by at least a few months), but she was the first one to get her own spin off series. It always annoyed me that comics are said to exclude girls when they've been trying to appeal to girls since the beginning.

I always felt bad for Mary because, as Jab said, if Cap didn't get treated well by DC, Mary and Freddy really got the short end of the stick. Though oddly enough, Mary was the only person in Geoff John's "Curse of Shazam" series to come out of it with any dignity, since she was basically a combination of some of Mary's best aspects: she was sweet, thoughtful and caring, but she also had a spine, would stand up to bullies, and had no problem telling off Nu-Billy for being a jerk.

It's interesting the perception of who Mary is, because while she was sweetness personified, she was also very clever, brave and self-reliant. In her initial appearance, she actually showed she was less impulsive than Billy and Freddy, who learned a bit of patience from her. She was also indirectly responsible for Uncle Dudley involved in the Marvel's life. See, Mary had a diary that she called "The Book of Good Deeds" where she wrote down her adventures. Well, Uncle Dudley was a con-artist who discovered the book and tried to pass himself off as Mary's uncle from California, but Mary, Billy and Freddy saw through this instantly. However, since he was, as they put it, "such a lovable old fraud", they pretended to go along with it, and accepted him as part of the family. Dudley actually became the Marvel Family's "manager" who would set up meetings for them and the like with public officials.

It's stuff like this that makes me annoyed that Billy, Mary and Freddy are often portrayed as being gullible or naive. I'm sorry, what? Billy lost his parents to criminals at age 8, spent 2-to-4 years living on the street, and since then has had to deal with people actively trying to murder him on a weekly, if not daily, basis. Freddy watched a superpowered Nazi murder his grandfather and cripple him for life. Mary got raised in a good home by wealthy people, but while more sheltered from the world than Billy and Freddy, she was also smart, self-reliant, and new how to take care of herself. In some ways, dealing with the wealthier side of things made her able to read people and she knew how awful people could be.

The Marvel Family isn't cheerful and optimistic because they're blind to the problems of the world. They know full well how bad people can be, how bad some people have it. But they also know how much good is in the world, so they choose to embrace it and promote it to make the world better. It's an informed, active optimism rather than a naive, ignorant one.

So Mary should definitely be sweetness personified, but she shouldn't be naive by any stretch.

They really did Mary wrong during Countdown to Final Crisis and in Final Crisis itself. She willingly went evil and down a dark path, but if she'd learned her lesson and come out stronger for it, that'd be one thing. But having her choose to be evil at the end was just horrible, especially since that went against the idea Grant Morrison had for her, which was to be possessed and forced into evil. And then the JSA story that followed up with her made her evil again.

It actively HURTS to see the Marvel Family get such poor treatment. Billy, Mary and Freddy should be the LAST people to ever turn evil, and between their innate goodness, strength of character, willpower and their magical powers, having them controlled like that should have to be some major undertaking. But if the Marvel's are actually given the credit and respect they're due, then you have to put them in the same level of respect as Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, and DC is largely unwilling to do that.

As for the flying brick issue, it's one reason why I kind of prefer Wonder Woman and Donna Troy go back to being unable to fly, at most being able to glide on air currents (or do the wire-fu kung fu theater leaps). Partially because I think having Diana be a flying, leaping and flipping fighter more akin to Spider-Man is more visually interesting, and partially because Diana didn't start flying until they actively ripped off Mary Marvel's original powerset and giving it to Diana. Mary's original powerset included:

Selene = Grace
Hippolyta = Strength
Artemis = Skill
Zephyrus = Speed / Flight
Aphrodite = Beauty
Minerva = Wisdom

I'll admit, changing them over to the same Shazam powerset Billy and Freddy shared was the right idea. But when they revamp Diana in the 80s, they specifically have the following gods and goddesses grant her the following abilities:

Hesita = Truth
Demeter = Strength / Endurance
Artemis = Skill / Animal Kinship
Hermes = Speed / Flight
Aphrodite = Beauty
Athena = Wisdom

So yeah. DC pretty much just handed Diana Mary's old powerset. Kind of makes it appropriate that the Superwoman of the Crisis on Two-Earths movie was actually an evil version of Mary Marvel. I'm sure that would get Jab to watch the movie.

But yeah, overall Mary is a great character and did some groundbreaking stuff for her time. She deserves a lot better than what she got.
scc wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:42 pm I agree about that Mary Marvel picture. It is one of the hottest pictures ever in comics. Is that the AT&T girl dressed as Mary Marvel? The first time I was really exposed to Mary Marvel was in the Formerly Known as the Justice League comic. That was a really fun comic. She did whip Captain Atom's butt in that comic when she was mind controlled so being evil does increase power level. She is always rated high in every DC comic's RPG that I have seen. That being said I don't see her being close to Superman and Captain Marvel as far as power level goes, at least when she is good.
Classically, Mary has just been as powerful as Cap and Junior. Post-Crisis it's tended to fluctuate a lot depending on the writer. In Power of Shazam, her and Billy were equally powerful. She was shown as being significantly more powerful than the Linda Danvers Supergirl (to the point that Mary handily defeated the god Quetzalcoatl one on one), but rarely got to do much on her own. Me personally, I'd put her and Cap as equals (the way Supergirl and Powergirl are ostensibly as powerful as Superman), and have Freddy be less powerful than them.

I also wasn't a big fan of Formerly Known as the Justice League or I Can't Believe It's Not Justice League. Billy got portrayed as a condescending jerk, Mary was portrayed as incredibly naive, and it basically seemed like it existed merely to take pot shots at everything while ignoring a lot of continuity (Mary's powers work just fine in Hell). There's rumors that editorial had to step in because the original plan was for them to have Guy Gardner sleep with Mary Marvel, and the loss of her "purity" would cause her Mary Marvel costume to become red again.

A reminder: Mary is 15 at the oldest at that point, and her having an adult body does not change the fact that she's still a 15 year old. It's literally the "well, she looked like she was 18" argument. It's beyond messed up that they planned to do that with her. If they want the Marvels to have relationships with adult heroes, then you hard-set their ages to 18. Otherwise they're teenagers and should not be having sex with adults, regardless of the body they're in.

Sorry, sorry. I just remember that rumor and it creeps me the Hell out.
Wow I didn't know all that. Comics has a lot of that actually. Deathstroke and Terra. Psylocke and Cypher though nothing ever happened. Now I feel dirty. One of the big reasons people like Mary is that she is pure and wholesome.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Captain Marvel! Capt. Marvel Jr.! Mary Marvel!)

Post by Ares »

scc wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:37 pm
Ares wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 4:41 pm
scc wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:42 pm I agree about that Mary Marvel picture. It is one of the hottest pictures ever in comics. Is that the AT&T girl dressed as Mary Marvel? The first time I was really exposed to Mary Marvel was in the Formerly Known as the Justice League comic. That was a really fun comic. She did whip Captain Atom's butt in that comic when she was mind controlled so being evil does increase power level. She is always rated high in every DC comic's RPG that I have seen. That being said I don't see her being close to Superman and Captain Marvel as far as power level goes, at least when she is good.
Classically, Mary has just been as powerful as Cap and Junior. Post-Crisis it's tended to fluctuate a lot depending on the writer. In Power of Shazam, her and Billy were equally powerful. She was shown as being significantly more powerful than the Linda Danvers Supergirl (to the point that Mary handily defeated the god Quetzalcoatl one on one), but rarely got to do much on her own. Me personally, I'd put her and Cap as equals (the way Supergirl and Powergirl are ostensibly as powerful as Superman), and have Freddy be less powerful than them.

I also wasn't a big fan of Formerly Known as the Justice League or I Can't Believe It's Not Justice League. Billy got portrayed as a condescending jerk, Mary was portrayed as incredibly naive, and it basically seemed like it existed merely to take pot shots at everything while ignoring a lot of continuity (Mary's powers work just fine in Hell). There's rumors that editorial had to step in because the original plan was for them to have Guy Gardner sleep with Mary Marvel, and the loss of her "purity" would cause her Mary Marvel costume to become red again.

A reminder: Mary is 15 at the oldest at that point, and her having an adult body does not change the fact that she's still a 15 year old. It's literally the "well, she looked like she was 18" argument. It's beyond messed up that they planned to do that with her. If they want the Marvels to have relationships with adult heroes, then you hard-set their ages to 18. Otherwise they're teenagers and should not be having sex with adults, regardless of the body they're in.

Sorry, sorry. I just remember that rumor and it creeps me the Hell out.
Wow I didn't know all that. Comics has a lot of that actually. Deathstroke and Terra. Psylocke and Cypher though nothing ever happened. Now I feel dirty. One of the big reasons people like Mary is that she is pure and wholesome.
In fairness to you and the creative team, it never actually happened. It was something planned that editorial stepped in and stopped, but it was something Keith Giffen wanted to include. And he did include a scene where Max imagines Guy groping Mary (in her Mary Marvel form) and then sniffed his finger . And a scene where Guy has to mentally talk himself out of raping an unconscious Power Girl. Guy's an arrogant jerk to be sure, but Giffen is an asshole for including crap like that and contemplating including the stuff he was prevented from doing. The more I learn about Giffen, the less I like him.

Anyway, just wanted to be clear I was judging Keith and what he wrote, not you.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Captain Marvel! Capt. Marvel Jr.! Mary Marvel!)

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One of my fave Mary moments came in the JLU comic followup where she aids the JL against a group of Greek themed villains. shes trying to fgure out her place among the heroes so to speak and dealing with the issues that come with being the ""Female version"" she comes up brilliantly though when she uses the wisdom of solomon and finds the bad guy coordinating the villains takes him out of the picture and that lets the other team mates kick the bad guys rear ends
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