Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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drkrash
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Hippolyta! Fury! The Amazons! Dr. Poison!)

Post by drkrash »

I get it. My question remains why would they have romantic or sexual feelings at all? Depending on their origin, it doesn't make sense. If they are some version of human that were moved to the island, that all makes sense. If they were created as non-human warriors and placed on the island as immortal adults, why would there be romance or sex at all?
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Hippolyta! Fury! The Amazons! Dr. Poison!)

Post by Ken »

drkrash wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:00 pm I get it. My question remains why would they have romantic or sexual feelings at all? Depending on their origin, it doesn't make sense. If they are some version of human that were moved to the island, that all makes sense. If they were created as non-human warriors and placed on the island as immortal adults, why would there be romance or sex at all?
Because one of their patron goddesses is Aphrodite, goddess of love and beauty, female sexuality, and fertility.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Hippolyta! Fury! The Amazons! Dr. Poison!)

Post by Davies »

And while they are magically created warriors, they were female humans in their previous incarnations. (In Perez, at least.)
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Hippolyta! Fury! The Amazons! Dr. Poison!)

Post by greycrusader »

Dr. Poison points out one of the failings of the M&M PL system; it's very difficult to create villains who can challenge heroes even though they are not personally powerful. Many of the Batman villains in the DCU books suffer from this problem-while the Joker, Two-, Penguin, and Riddler are certainly dangerous to ordinary people (or even trained police officers), none of them are elite hand to hand fighters or marksmen nor are their gadgets THAT deadly. So their PL ended up distorted upwards to pose a threat to a PL 12 Batman.

Dr. Poison should be a menace because of what she can potentially unleash, even though she's no match even for Steve Trevor or Etta in melee combat.

All my best.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Hippolyta! Fury! The Amazons! Dr. Poison!)

Post by Ken »

greycrusader wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:54 pm Dr. Poison points out one of the failings of the M&M PL system; it's very difficult to create villains who can challenge heroes even though they are not personally powerful. Many of the Batman villains in the DCU books suffer from this problem-while the Joker, Two-, Penguin, and Riddler are certainly dangerous to ordinary people (or even trained police officers), none of them are elite hand to hand fighters or marksmen nor are their gadgets THAT deadly. So their PL ended up distorted upwards to pose a threat to a PL 12 Batman.

Dr. Poison should be a menace because of what she can potentially unleash, even though she's no match even for Steve Trevor or Etta in melee combat.

All my best.
So, should Batman be a lower PL?

Personally, I think the majority of characters could be dropped two PLs, usually lowering their accuracy and their active defenses, and except for point totals and area/perception attacks, it would probably be closer to the source material.
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Giganta (Golden Age)

Post by Jabroniville »

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GIGANTA I (Dr. Doris Zeul) (Golden Age)
Created By:
William Moulton Marston & Harry G. Peter
First Appearance: Wonder Woman #9 (Summer 1944)
Role: Giantess
Group Affiliations: Villainy Inc.

-In Giganta's Golden Age debut, she was an ape transformed into a brutish red-haired strongwoman by a Professor Zool. Encouraging a global rebellion, she is stopped by Wonder Woman and sent to Transformation Island for rehabilitation. She later rebels thanks to the Saturnian slaver Eviless helping her out, but they are again beaten. The character wasn't a Giantess at this point (merely a spectacular, glorious 7-8 feet tall)- that was added in the 1970s thanks to DC's Super Friends series.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Hippolyta! Fury! The Amazons! Dr. Poison!)

Post by Jack of Spades »

Doctor Poison has the potential to be big-league in the 21st century. In the ‘60s, we were very worried about radiation and atomic weapons, and it shows in the heroes and villains created at the time. Now the cutting edge of technology has shifted to biotech.

I’d turn Doctor Poison into the Arnim Zola of the DCU, but with more of an emphasis on weaponizing disease than just creating mutated humanoids and brain transplants. Especially after the last year, what she can do should be terrifying. She’s amorally willing to weaponize plague, interested only in seeing how far she can push her research. Perhaps a bit stereotypically mad scientist, but she should embody the risk of biotech without ethics or restraint. And always, there should be the risk of her releasing something even she has no idea how to stop...
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Re: Giganta (Golden Age)

Post by Goldar »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:23 am Image
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GIGANTA I (Dr. Doris Zeul) (Golden Age)
Created By:
William Moulton Marston & Harry G. Peter
First Appearance: Wonder Woman #9 (Summer 1944)
Role: Giantess
Group Affiliations: Villainy Inc.

-In Giganta's Golden Age debut, she was an ape transformed into a brutish red-haired strongwoman by a Professor Zool. Encouraging a global rebellion, she is stopped by Wonder Woman and sent to Transformation Island for rehabilitation. She later rebels thanks to the Saturnian slaver Eviless helping her out, but they are again beaten. The character wasn't a Giantess at this point (merely a spectacular, glorious 7-8 feet tall)- that was added in the 1970s thanks to DC's Super Friends series.
I love those old Giganta stories!

I love how WW states that being tied up is good for the girl (Giganta)! :lol:

Didn't Giganta start off as a blonde?
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Hippolyta! Fury! The Amazons! Dr. Poison!)

Post by Jack of Spades »

To me the key thing about Marston’s original take on the Amazons were that their perfection was something achievable by normal humans–they weren’t something different from us, just us perfected. So I don’t care for the emphasis on making them a magical race of super-people. I think that makes Wonder Woman too much like Superman, Aquaman, and the Martian Manhunter. Yes, it’s a Mary Suetopia–but so is Star Trek’s Federation.

This is how I’d write the Amazons, as an entire island of women who’re the physical equals of Slade Wilson or Steve Rogers, mentally just as advanced, and scientifically well in advance of the rest of the world (though still lagging individuals like Luthor or Sivana–or Doctor Poison).

Paradise Island exists in a pocket dimension that moves around the world; sometimes it’s in the Bermuda Triangle, sometimes off the coast of England, sometimes the Mediterranean, sometimes in the Pacific... and sometimes other worlds entirely, whatever the story calls for. The Amazons were guided there as a refuge. There is a strong thread of misandry in their otherwise “perfect” culture; initially they did use the men of adjacent societies to father their children (and returned the male infants to them, as in Herodotus), but stopped that when they developed cloning.

I’d restore the Amazons’ original ties to Ares, who in myth was the father of the first Amazons (by the nymph Harmonia). Ares pretty much embodied toxic masculinity, and he is the image the Amazons have of men to this day. Their devotion goes first to Aphrodite Urania, the primal Aphrodite who emerged from the sea-foam (and not the one who Zeus forced to marry Hephaestus but who cheated on him with Ares all the time). Hera is worshiped as queen of the gods and a restraining influence on Zeus’ worst tendencies, and likewise Athena, Artemis, and Hestia. They owe their system of government to Athena, even calling it the Athenean System, and invoking her at official state events. Dionysus is a sometimes-enemy, sometimes-ally, but in modern times more the former.

Incidentally, the Amazons still go to war with bronze age weapons (though probably made of advanced materials) for the simple reason that they haven’t fought a war in over two thousand years. They have the technology in principle, but they never needed to develop them as weapons, so they didn’t.

The Amazons did have dealings with Hercules, Theseus, and Alexander, but this was ten generations ago or more. Amazons are long-lived, but not immortal.

I’m with Perez on the Amazons’ sexuality, with a caveat. As I see it, heterosexuality is deeply stigmatized, on par with homosexuality in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Diana herself is bi, but very, very repressed about the hetero side of things.

We do need named Amazons, both so that Hippolyta doesn’t do everything and so Diana has a supporting cast “at home.” But beyond Philippus, we don’t need to see every one every time we go to Paradise Island. Maybe one of Antiope, (Hippolyta’s political rival), Phillipus (patriot and loyal to the system, though in love with Hippolyta), Menalippe (high priestess), Epione (keeper of the Purple Ray), as the story requires. I’ll save Baroness Paula von Gunter for her entry.
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Giganta (Modern)

Post by Jabroniville »

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That this character isn’t even remotely famous is the most damning indictment of DC comics imaginable.

GIGANTA II (Dr. Doris Zeul) (Silver Age/Post-Crisis)
Created By:
William Moulton Marston & Harry G. Peter
First Appearance: Wonder Woman #9 (Summer 1944)
Role: Giantess
Group Affiliations: The Injustice League
PL 12 (152)
STRENGTH
4/16 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 6 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Deception 2 (+4)
Expertise (Science) 6 (+12)
Intimidation 4 (+6, +13 Size)
Perception 4 (+5)
Technology 2 (+8)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Diehard, Fast Grab, Inventor, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 2, Startle, Takedown 2

Powers:
Growth 12 (Str & Sta +12, -6 Dodge/Parry) [24]
Growth +4 (+15 Mass, +7 Intimidation, +1 Speed, -15 Stealth) -- (105 feet) (Flaws: Limited to Non-ST & STA Growths) [4]
"Giant Fists & Feet" Damage 11 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) [22]
"Giant Defenses" Enhanced Defenses 4 (Quirks: Only at Huge Sizes) [7]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Giant Size +8 (+16 Damage, DC 31)
Giant Fists & Feet +11 Area (+11 Damage, DC 26)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
"Normal Size" Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +4, Fortitude +5, Will +7
"Giant Size" Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +16, Fortitude +5, Will +7

Complications:
Enemy (Wonder Woman)
Power Loss (Intelligence)- Giganta sometimes gets dumber the larger she grows- this is inconsistently portrayed.

Total: Abilities: 60 / Skills: 18--9 / Advantages: 9 / Powers: 58 / Defenses: 16 (152)

-You'd think being one of the few Giantesses in comics would have made Giganta a bigger starm, but I guess the Macrophile fetish community just hadn't coalesced at that point yet. She was rarely used in any Wonder Woman stuff I've read and hasn't mattered a lot, and is mostly known for jokes in side-comics or from her adorable Justice League Unlimited appearances, where she's equal parts girly and used for every bit of Fanservice they can muster for such a thing.

-In the Silver Age, her origin was revamped in 1966 to feature Doctor Psycho hypnotizing Giganta, a gorilla in a zoo, to fall in love with Steve Trevor. After Wonder Woman defeats Giganta, Professor Zool finds her and uses an "Evolution Ray" turning her into a huge blonde woman, who again goes after Steve. However, Challenge of the Super-Friends made the character a red-haired giantess, and so the character is soon shifted once more. She is now Dr. Doris Zeul, a brilliant woman dying of a rare blood disease. She tries to put her "life essence" into Wonder Woman's body, but Wonder Girl (Donna Troy) interrupts the experiment and Zeul's mind ends up in a test animal named Giganta instead. Desperate, Giganta-Gorilla kidnaps a comatose circus strongwoman named Olga who just happens to have size-changing abilities, and transfers her mind into THAT body, keeping the name "Giganta".

-So after all that... the character just kinda isn't important, I think, as bios contain little of her adventures. She tries to take over Skartaris with Villainy Inc. but is stopped by Wonder Woman. Then we skip all this time and end up in the "One Year Later" era where she teams up with Dr. Psycho & Cheetah to beat up Donna Troy and demand "The REAL Wonder Woman"- she is ultimately beaten by Hercules, recruited to help. She reappears in the Ryan Choi Atom feature as a teacher at Ivy Town University, and she is mind-controlled by a monstrous god into trying to seduce and capture him- she is ultimately freed from control and appears trying to reform. She actually DATES Ryan, but when she finds out he was convinced by WW to wear a wire, she freaks out and attacks her. Then Ryan is abruptly killed because DC was pulling all sorts of Mulligans at that point, and she's a bad guy again.

-She appears in Salvation Run and other stories allied with other villains, then gets hired by Bane for Secret Six. When she finds out that her teammate Dwarfstar was responsible for murdering Ryan (whom she didn't even know was dead at that point), she decides to torture him to death. This is her last appearance before the reboot and "New 52".

-This is a pretty hilariously minor bio for someone who I figured would be a semi-major villain, but for the most part she's just kind of a one-off goober powerhouse who is handily defeated. Though her whole "Started life as an ape" thing probably made her more of a joke back in the day. It wasn't until the modern era, with jokes about Giantess fetishes and the like, where she's gotten a new lease on life. Her appearances in JLU and the famous comic panels "HE NEEDS OUR HELP WITH HIS SEXY FIGHT!" (when a guy's teenage ally goes agog at Giganta's enormous size) have helped matters... but also kinda just made her silly again, but self-referentially this time.

-Giganta... is tricky to stat. Like most Giant-Sized characters in comics, you have to mess around a bit to leave them even remotely playable. But she's kind of a Jobber... but only to WONDER WOMAN, who is like PL 14, so she ends up highly powerful and very durable as well. +16 Toughness is fairly high, even for the DC Universe.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Hippolyta! Fury! The Amazons! Dr. Poison!)

Post by greycrusader »

Ken wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:43 pm
greycrusader wrote: Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:54 pm Dr. Poison points out one of the failings of the M&M PL system; it's very difficult to create villains who can challenge heroes even though they are not personally powerful. Many of the Batman villains in the DCU books suffer from this problem-while the Joker, Two-, Penguin, and Riddler are certainly dangerous to ordinary people (or even trained police officers), none of them are elite hand to hand fighters or marksmen nor are their gadgets THAT deadly. So their PL ended up distorted upwards to pose a threat to a PL 12 Batman.

Dr. Poison should be a menace because of what she can potentially unleash, even though she's no match even for Steve Trevor or Etta in melee combat.

All my best.
So, should Batman be a lower PL?

Personally, I think the majority of characters could be dropped two PLs, usually lowering their accuracy and their active defenses, and except for point totals and area/perception attacks, it would probably be closer to the source material.
PL 12 is fine for the Batman as he appears in Justice League; the problem is he usually operates as a considerably lower level in his own titles, where he faces far less tough opposition (the biggest physical threats being Blockbuster or Clayface-level, powerhouse types who push him to the limit). THAT Batman is an over-pointed PL 11, and he doesn't hit his caps on offense unarmed. Nightwing would roughly be a PL 9, maybe PL 10 defensively. But M&M doesn't have any sort of "split PL" mechanic to fit characters who are much better depending on whether they are solo and with a team. CORTEX's Marvel Heroes game did that pretty well, short-lived as it was.

All my best.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Hippolyta! Fury! The Amazons! Dr. Poison!)

Post by Ken »

greycrusader wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:06 am But M&M doesn't have any sort of "split PL" mechanic to fit characters who are much better depending on whether they are solo and with a team.
So build it. I did. :) http://rcuhero.net/dc_h/guardian2_dca.htm
Powers: ...
Rising to the Occasion: Enhanced Traits 8 (Fighting 2, Dodge 2, Ranged Attack 2) 8

Complications: ...
Street Level - When not working alongside the Champions of Justice, Guardian often operates at PL 10, rather than PL 11 (i.e. without the Rising to the Occasion power active)
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Re: Giganta (Modern)

Post by Sidious »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:36 am Image
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Don't stare. your mind fixates. Next thing you know you're cruising some real weird chatrooms.
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Queen Clea

Post by Jabroniville »

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"Go-Go Enslavement" for men in *1944*? Marston WAS progressive!

QUEEN CLEA
Created By:
William Moulton Marston & Harry G. Peter
First Appearance: Wonder Woman #8 (March 1944)
Role: Underworld Invader
Group Affiliations: Venturia, Villainy Inc.

Golden Age Queen Clea:
-Okay, never heard of this one, either. Queen Clea was the ruler of Venturia, one of the leading nations of Atlantis, but invaded a rival nation Aurania, who sought help from Steve Trevor. Clea captured Steve and forced him to fight in her arena, requiring Wonder Woman to save him. Aurania then attacked with a "devitaminizer" and Venturia was defeated. Later, Clea sent her nation to invade the surface world to gain slaves from America and Germany, and trapped both WW and the Queen of Aurania in the form of statues- Diana was freed by the Holliday Girls' music (they'd been forced to perform by Clea, lest she drown the American soldiers who'd refused to join her army). Clea and her daughter Ptra were sent to Transformation Island to reform.

-Later, Clea harmed the Princess of Aurania deliberately, but still teamed with her & WW when they were captured by the new rulers of Atlantis, who'd been attacking all the female Queens. Clea pretended to ally with them, enabling the escape of the others. Then Clea appears to have won back her throne and attacked the surface world again- Aurania's Princess now took over Venturia when WW stopped this invasion. Sent to Transformation Island again, Clea was eventually recruited by Eviless for Villainy Inc., and helped capture Diana. Steve Trevor ended up saving her with the Invisible Plane, allowing WW to beat both Clea & Giganta. In the Silver Age, she allies with Penguin, Blockbuster & Ibac in order to regain her crown- WW and Superman have to team up to beat them, but Clea takes Supes over with the Venus Girdle until Diana can finally save the day.

-Queen Clea returns Post-Crisis, with John Byrne showing her as an opponent of Queen Hippolyta. However, Ptra turns out to have betrayed her mother to Aurania. Clea herself is deemed the ruler of Villainy Inc. in this continuity. Later, she gains possession of Poseidon's Trident, and uses it to form a second Villainy Inc. with Giganta, Poison, Jinx, Cyborgirl, and Trinity, conquering Shamballah (a city in Skartaris). Wonder Woman arrives in search of the Trident and the two fight to a standstill- Trinity ultimately betrayed Clea, devolving her into nothingness. She later turned up in a group of Circe's "army of villains", but was taken out by Diana's allies.

-Queen Clea is an undersea Atlantean, able to withstand great pressure and breathe underwater
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Aug 27, 2022 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Queen Clea

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:49 pm In the Silver Age, she allies with Penguin, Blockbuster & Ibac in order to regain her crown- WW and Superman have to team up to beat them, but Clea takes Supes over with the Venus Girdle until Diana can finally save the day.
Penguin, Blockbuster, and Ibac were working for King Kull, Kull sent them to Venturia, and they teamed up. And it was Wonder Woman (Earth-Two), Superman (Earth-One), Green Arrow (Earth-One), and Spy Smasher (Earth-S) who had to team-up to beat them. Superman downed Blockbuster. Green Arrow beat the Penguin. Spy Smasher kept Ibac off balance until he tricked him into turning back into Printwhistle.

And Wonder Woman's saving the day was really just her commanding Superman to stop. Wearing the Venus Girdle, Superman had to obey the commands of anyone, not just Queen Clea.

The golden age Queen Clea (and that's the one who appeared in this story) was NOT a water breather. Her Atlantis hadn't sunk.
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