Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Silver Swan I-III! Circe! Orana! Artemis!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Davies wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:18 pm Re: Artemis' team-up with Ra's -- that comes from Matt Wagner's Trinity, where I strongly suspect that the author thought she was from Themyscria and an editor fixed it. Its status in continuity is confusing at best -- Batman has been fighting Ra's for years, but he's just taken in Dick Grayson? It's not a bad story, and its take on Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman learning to work together is great, but it has a fair number of weird bits like that.

Also you should probably add Zealot-ripoff to her role. I mean just look at her.
Yeah I mentioned it with the images, but HOLY CRAP. Completely identical personalities and hair.
MacynSnow
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Silver Swan I-III! Circe! Orana! Artemis!)

Post by MacynSnow »

That's what i always found sad 'bout Artemis. They had so little faith in the character that they basically STOLE a WW knock-off(let's not lie about it, that's what Zealot was) to replace Diana and was shocked thst it didn't work...
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Ken
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Silver Swan I-III! Circe! Orana! Artemis!)

Post by Ken »

MacynSnow wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:27 pm That's what i always found sad 'bout Artemis. They had so little faith in the character that they basically STOLE a WW knock-off(let's not lie about it, that's what Zealot was) to replace Diana and was shocked that it didn't work...
They never expected Artemis to work. Same with Azrael. Same with the Cyborg Superman and the Eradicator. Even the same with U.S. Agent. None of them were expected to actually take.

Diana never left her book. Bruce never left his books. Steve never left his. They did actually keep Clark out of his books for a while, since they really did want to tell the "World without a Superman" story. But they were all built around the "replace the hero with someone who is closer to what some vocal fans say they want" trope. Whether it's a Superman who is willing to kill, a clawed and armoured Batman who's willing to kill, or a jingoistic Captain America who takes orders from the government, that was the point. In Diana's case they copied a WW knock-off and then steadily showed why the knock-off is a bad imitation of the original.

As long as their are licensed products using the established characters' images, no "major change" is ever going to be permanent. Sure, Dick Grayson became Nightwing, but it was at the same time that Jason Todd became Robin. Jason Todd got killed off by a writer who hates the "and Robin" attached to "Batman"... and 8 months later... it's Tim Drake.
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MacynSnow
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Silver Swan I-III! Circe! Orana! Artemis!)

Post by MacynSnow »

Actually, the Jason Todd death was a printer error. When they set-up the phone numbers the guy that set the type put 'em in reverse.

Other than that ken, your right on the money. I just hate the thought of wasting characters...:(
Sidney369
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Silver Swan I-III! Circe! Orana! Artemis!)

Post by Sidney369 »

MacynSnow wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:27 pm That's what i always found sad 'bout Artemis. They had so little faith in the character that they basically STOLE a WW knock-off(let's not lie about it, that's what Zealot was)
I've always seen Zealot more of a Psylocke knock-off
Always ask before you use someone's Original Character.
Never ever use them without permission. Only Villains do that.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Silver Swan I-III! Circe! Orana! Artemis!)

Post by MacynSnow »

Sidney369 wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:04 am
MacynSnow wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:27 pm That's what i always found sad 'bout Artemis. They had so little faith in the character that they basically STOLE a WW knock-off(let's not lie about it, that's what Zealot was)
I've always seen Zealot more of a Psylocke knock-off
I've only seen it when she's with WildC.A.T.S, but that was all a X-Men rip-off anyway...
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Ken
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Silver Swan I-III! Circe! Orana! Artemis!)

Post by Ken »

Sidney369 wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:04 am
MacynSnow wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:27 pm That's what i always found sad 'bout Artemis. They had so little faith in the character that they basically STOLE a WW knock-off(let's not lie about it, that's what Zealot was)
I've always seen Zealot more of a Psylocke knock-off
Actually... you're both right. There are some elements that were ripped off from Diana (ageless warrior from elsewhere, super strength), and there are some elements that were ripped off from Psylocke (psychic powers, katanas). That way she's an origina-- *cough* *cough* sorry I can't say it. Yeah, Zealot is not a rip-off of either. She's a ripoff of both.
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Ian Turner
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Silver Swan I-III! Circe! Orana! Artemis!)

Post by Ian Turner »

Ken wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:14 am Yeah, Zealot is not a rip-off of either. She's a ripoff of both.
Yeah, ninja-kini with swords *and* immortal warrior-woman from an island of immortal warrior-women. She's drank both their milkshakes, and failed to be as tasty as either.

Now Cyblade, that was a straight-up Psylocke ripoff. (And Thundra, one of the many more straight-up Wonder Woman riffs, but far more interesting than the Image riffs, IMO.)
Jabroniville
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The White Magician

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

THE WHITE MAGICIAN (Thomas Asquith Randolph, aka Mister Magik, The White Sorcerer)
Created By:
William Messner-Loebs
First Appearance: Wonder Woman Annual #3 (Oct. 1992)
Role: Forgotten Villain
Group Affiliations: The Echoes of Justice

-The White Magician is a short-lived Wonder Woman character who is an ancient Wizard who claims to have been around at the creation of the United States themselves. He moved on, repeatedly changing his name, even joining a superhero team in the 1970s, but has since retired to his mansion. He meets Diana, who is disgusted with his elitism and racist attitude- figuring she could be a problem, the Magician sets her up to fight Eclipso to rid her from Boston. His magical powers waning, an annoyed Magician starts working with a mob boss, then tries to get WW lost in space- she returns after a few months, and now the dude is straight up a power-hungry super-villain. He sells his soul to a demon for more power, kills another mob boss, and tries to create the public perception that he's ultra-heroic.

-Eventually, Diana is replaced as Wonder Woman by Artemis, and the Magician switches focus her her- he uses the life force of his lover, as well as the third Cheetah, to become a giant demon. Artemis is badly beaten, but Diana returns and the two are able to stop him- he is immolated by his own powers, leaving Artemis to die in Diana's arms. This was the cap-off to the "Diana loses her title" run in the '90s. Curiously, despite this big role, the villain has never reappeared. This isn't a terribly well-remembered run, I think.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Silver Swan I-III! Circe! Orana! Artemis!)

Post by Jabroniville »

MacynSnow wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:34 am Actually, the Jason Todd death was a printer error. When they set-up the phone numbers the guy that set the type put 'em in reverse.

Other than that ken, your right on the money. I just hate the thought of wasting characters...:(
The way I heard the story, it was a bunch of Jason-haters calling repeatedly.

But really, it was ages ago and everyone involved in the story has a stake in it, and a vested interest in "being right", so I find it hard to trust anybody.
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Woodclaw
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Silver Swan I-III! Circe! Orana! Artemis!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Jabroniville wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:26 am
MacynSnow wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:34 am Actually, the Jason Todd death was a printer error. When they set-up the phone numbers the guy that set the type put 'em in reverse.

Other than that ken, your right on the money. I just hate the thought of wasting characters...:(
The way I heard the story, it was a bunch of Jason-haters calling repeatedly.

But really, it was ages ago and everyone involved in the story has a stake in it, and a vested interest in "being right", so I find it hard to trust anybody.
The official thing is that the final count went down to a difference of 35 or so votes.
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Jabroniville
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Veronica Cale

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

VERONICA CALE
Created By:
Greg Rucka & Drew Johnson
First Appearance: Wonder Woman #196 (Nov. 2003)
Role: Super-Scientist
Group Affiliations: Science Squad
PL 1 (63), PL 4 (63) Skills
STRENGTH
0 STAMINA 1 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 0 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 8 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Deception 6 (+10)
Expertise (Science) 6 (+14)
Expertise (Business) 4 (+12)
Insight 3 (+7)
Perception 3 (+7)
Persuasion 6 (+10)
Technology 6 (+14)

Advantages:
Benefit 5 (Wealth)

Offense:
Unarmed +0 (+0 Damage, DC 15)
Initiative +0

Defenses:
Dodge +0 (DC 10), Parry +0 (DC 10), Toughness +1, Fortitude +2, Will +6

Complications:
Motivation (Greed & Power)
Enemy (Wonder Woman)

Total: Abilities: 38 / Skills: 34--17 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 3 (63)

-Veronica Cale is a Greg Rucka creation who is set up as an ideological opponent for Wonder Woman- a Lex Luthor-like amoral businesswoman (Rucka mentions this is deliberate), she is resentful of the heroine for being seen as a "paragon of feminism" while Cale felt she had to claw her way to the top while also being disregarded. She's also incredibly jealous and wants to BE Diana as well. She discredits Diana publicly and tries to make it seem like those supporting her are dangerous zealots, but her ally Doctor Psycho betrays her and she has to be rescued by WW- this doesn't improve her take any. She briefly allies with Circe as well, and turns Vanessa Kapatelis into a cyborg as the third Silver Swan, but this whole story is eventually ended by Infinite Crisis. She shows up as a part of 52, suffering a nervous breakdown and sleeping with Dr. Magnus.

-She might have been ignored after all this, but Rucka's power at DC ends up with her being used in DC Rebirth as a major character, with a MASSIVE section on Wikipedia and assurances that she's now a much more competent character and not the mentally-deranged doofus seen earlier.

-Veronica Cale is apparently very smart, and one of the richest people on Earth, but seems to fall to other villains a lot.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Dr. Cyber! Silver Swan I-III! Circe!)

Post by greycrusader »

Davies wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:59 am
Jabroniville wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:17 am I find it interesting, yet also very fitting, that most everyone's ideas to "fix" every person in WW's cast is to essentially reinvent the wheel and toss out almost all the original stuff but for a few concepts.
Sometimes, you can only get new growth after a forest fire.
Frankly, the problem is that while quite a few WW characters and concepts had potential, most were abandoned, cut short, or revised and re-revised to the point of utter confusion-try to make sense of the backgrounds of Donna Troy, Cassie Sandsmark, or even Nubia. While the Golden Age established certain iconic elements of the heroine, too much of that is just unusable in the modern day, either too dated or too tainted by the fetish elements written by Marston. The Silver Age material is mostly silly or downright childish, and Wonder Woman's Bronze Age stories are forgettable. The only runs which are really fertile for ideas are the Perez, Jimmenez, and Rucka books. Thereafter the character got trapped in the cycle of DC constantly changing its history and core concepts (there are now TWO versions of Vanessa as the Silver Swan, for example). So it really would be a matter of sifting a few good ideas from a lot of poor ones, IMO.

All my best.
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Ken
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Silver Swan I-III! Circe! Orana! Artemis!)

Post by Ken »

Woodclaw wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:43 am
Jabroniville wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:26 am
MacynSnow wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:34 am Actually, the Jason Todd death was a printer error. When they set-up the phone numbers the guy that set the type put 'em in reverse.

Other than that ken, your right on the money. I just hate the thought of wasting characters...:(
The way I heard the story, it was a bunch of Jason-haters calling repeatedly.

But really, it was ages ago and everyone involved in the story has a stake in it, and a vested interest in "being right", so I find it hard to trust anybody.
The official thing is that the final count went down to a difference of 35 or so votes.
The real point was that Jim Starlin, who was writing Batman at the time, hates Robin. Hates the idea of Batman having a sidekick. So in the year leading up to the book in question, he made Jason as shitty a sidekick as he possibly could. He wanted Robin gone. And even if Jason had lived, he'd have been recuperating for a long time, and, again being made into an asshole, no one would be clamoring for his return. He may not have had the whole "Death in the Family" thing in mind from the start; maybe he just wanted fans to hate Jason so much that they'd beg to have Robin out of the book.

But Warners will never let Batman be without Robin for long. Never.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

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Jabroniville
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Dark Angel

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

DARK ANGEL
Created By:
John Byrne
First Appearance: Wonder Woman #131 (March 1998)
Role: The Manipulator, Mirror Image Villain (sorta)
Group Affiliations: None
PL 10 (206)
STRENGTH
10 STAMINA 10 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Deception 6 (+10)
Expertise (Magic) 8 (+12)
Expertise (History) 8 (+12)
Insight 4 (+8)
Intimidation 4 (+8)
Perception 4 (+8)
Stealth 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Power Attack, Ranged Attack 5, Startle

Powers:
Immunity 3 (Aging, Disease, Poison) [3]
Morph (Anyone) 3 [15]

"Magical Might"
Teleport 12 (Extras: Extended, Accurate) (48) -- [51]
  • AE: Movement 2 (Time Travel 2) (4)
  • AE: Growth 8 (Flaws: Limited to Non-ST & STA Growths) (8)
  • AE: Mind Control 10 (40)
Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +10, Fortitude +10, Will +8

Complications:
Enemy (Queen Hippolyta)- Dark Angel used to fight Hippolyta during World War II, while in possession of Paula von Gunther's body.
Enemy (Donna Troy)- Dark Angel has since shifted her enmity to Donna, whom she tried, and failed, to ruin.

Total: Abilities: 102 / Skills: 36--18 / Advantages: 7 / Powers: 69 / Defenses: 10 (206)

-The mysterious Dark Angel was a villain created in John Byrne's Wonder Woman run, and she repeatedly vexed her, turning out to be instrumental to the NEW, even DUMBER version of Donna Troy's origin story! She was a wandering spirit retconned in as having inhabited the body of Baroness Paula von Gunther during World War II- she says she's been bedeviling humans for centuries. Queen Hippolyta, as the Golden Age WW, fought her many times, leading to an eternal grudge. Finally, in modern times, she intended to kidnap a young Diana to strike at the Queen- however, Diana had just received a magical duplicate "sister" in Donna Troy (via a magic mirror), and THAT'S who Dark Angel ended up capturing! And so the demon sent Donna through lifetime after lifetime, each ending in tragedy, hoping to drive Hippolyta insane by proxy- instead, Donna grew stronger and stronger, finally emerging as a superheroine.

-In Devin Grayson's Titans run, Dark Angel returned to fight Donna, now being turned into her personal villain- I felt that Grayson was kind of stuck doing whatever with the pieces left in the wake of Byrne and other writers who'd mucked about with continuity recently, but she's said she was interested in various things Donna had been doing at the time. I think perhaps she was overly focusing on things like "So Donna was recreated from the memories of Wally West? That's weird- I want to delve into that some more and figure out what she'd think of that", because Dark Angel just kinda came off as a random threat at the end. In one big Who Is Donna Troy? story written at the end of Grayson's run to REALLY cap off who Donna Troy was (at least, before the next set of writers did it all over again), Dark Angel splits herself apart and tries to attack Donna in multiple timelines, and is defeated in each one by a Titans group.

-In a prelude to Infinite Crisis, Donna, now a Multiversal Observer, finds out that Dark Angel is a version of herself from Earth-Seven, saved from a burning apartment (same as Donna) by the Anti-Monitor, and raised to serve him. Donna finally defeated her, becoming the sum of every Donna that ever existed- a living key to the lost Multiverse. After the New 52 and a new Multiverse were created, a new Dark Angel appeared. She was a servant of the 52 new Monitors (each overseeing one universe), and decided to fight Supergirl this time. She goes on a multiversal chase and is finally defeated.

-Dark Angel is one of those "I have lots and lots of powers" Evil Wizards, with abilities like Possession, Mind Control, Size Alteration, Teleportation, and Time Travel. And yet despite that she'll lose pretty hard in a team fight to super-heroes. For example, when she fought the Silver Age Teen Titans, they completely housed her in seconds, Kid Flash spiraling some of Robin's knock-out gas into her mouth using a mini-tornado. Other Titans groups, humorously, had a much tougher time, because they just tried to fight her normally.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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