Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Davies
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Re: Thorn (Rose Canton)

Post by Davies »

Sidney369 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:35 am
Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:14 am

-Thorn is also the mother of Mayflower of the Force of July- a U.S. government-backed team that were disposed of by the Suicide Squad.
When was this revealed?
I'm not seeing any reference to this link on the DC fandom wiki, and the mentions of it on Wikipedia and Comicvine are unsourced (and get the issue where Mayflower died wrong, in the former case.) I thought it MIGHT have come up in the Infinity Inc./Outsiders team-up, where the FOJ were part of the opposition, but nope.
Last edited by Davies on Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jabroniville
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Re: Thorn (Rose Canton)

Post by Jabroniville »

Sidney369 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:35 am
Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:14 am

-Thorn is also the mother of Mayflower of the Force of July- a U.S. government-backed team that were disposed of by the Suicide Squad.
When was this revealed?
No idea- DC fans are lame and never made an equivalent to the Unofficial Appendix, lol. It’s mentioned on Wikipedia and Writeups.org: https://www.writeups.org/mayflower-forc ... dc-comics/
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Ares
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Re: Obsidian

Post by Ares »

Infinity Inc. was actually one of the first comics I remember picking up on my own, and it started out as a lot of fun. It was nice to see the world of the JSA getting their own version of the Titans, as for the longest time that world's only superhero teams had been the Justice Society and the Seven Soldiers of Victory (save for when both groups combined to form the All-Star Squadron). So having the JSA still around but the Infinity Inc. crew step up as a new generation of heroes was nice.

Naturally Crisis wound up mucking up the book badly. Much as I love Crisis, they really should have planned out the repercussions of the event better. Suddenly the Golden Age Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman were no more, so the origins for Huntress, Fury and Power Girl all had to be retconned. Hawkman's origin got so messed up by Hawkworld that the character was eventually considered too toxic to touch until Geoff Johns rescued him. And the rich history of the Infinity Inc. kids got messed with, resulting in weird stories, retcons and eventually some really, REALLY weird decisions, such as Hector getting killed off, becoming Jack Kirby's Sandman, Lyta joining him in the dream world, etc. Then Millennium happened, which messed up things even more. We got things Skyman/The Star-Spangled Kid getting killed, the reveal of the new Harlequin being a Manhunter agent, etc.

It honestly became a mess and the book was mercy killed soon after. And unfortunately, several members of the Infinity Inc. crew were considered disposable enough to just kill off or mess up in increasingly terrible ways. Neil Gaiman had his own Sandman show up, had Morpheus mock Hector Hall and kill him, and then Neil proceeded to ruin Lyta, basically destroying her entire character to add some cheap pathos to his stories. I honestly cannot take any of Neil's complaints about people handling his own characters seriously when he pulls stuff like this, or that whole bit where he incredibly disrespects C.S. Lewis' creations.

The second Dr. Mid-Nite and Wildcat were both killed off during an Eclipso storyline, Brainwave Jr. was made evil and then insane, etc. Basically, Jade, Obsidian and Nuklon were the only Infinity Inc. characters to make it out of there alive and with some level of dignity intact . . . at least until some writer on Green Lantern decided to make Jade cheat on Kyle in his own bed and emasculate him, all to further drive him back out into space (and then later got killed herself for a bit). And both Obsidian and Nuklon (remade into Atom Smasher) got turned into villains for a bit, though eventually they found their way back to pure heroism. Even Hector and Lyta got to come back and be heroes for a bit, though they also wound off getting killed off with almost no mention.

So yeah, in a weird way, Jade and Obsidian were the LUCKY ONES of the Infinity Inc. crew.
Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:39 pm -He moved on to the Justice League book when it was full of more-minor characters (Nuklon, Ice Maiden, Fire), but it was rather unsuccessful. However, the writer there used the "disastrous romantic history" as a justification for Todd coming out of the closet, making him one of the first homosexual comic book heroes- this was the kind of thing you could readily do on a D-tier book (as JLA sadly was at the time- they were written out in the first issue of Morrison's revamp of the book and badly injured) with a D-tier forgotten character. This has been used to explain various heroes presenting as straight and then being outed as gay, which is kind of funny when you realize that EVERY superhero has a disastrous romantic history, but y'know... it can happen this way in real life, lol. But it's just amusing because why would Todd's backstory be any more full of that justification than say, Spider-Man or Iron Man.
I actually own that Justice League run, and it was very weird. You had legit A-Listers like Wonder Woman and the Flash, solid B-List classic members like Hawkman and Power Girl, recognizable C-Listers from the previous era like Fire, and then some new members like Obsidian, Nuklon, Icemaiden and the Blue Devil.

At some point the writer really wanted to examine character sexuality, with Icemaiden coming out as bi-sexual while Obsidian came out as gay. Both of them were pretty low-tier characters without an extensive history or any dedicated love interests, so this didn't really bother me at all. I could even possibly by that Todd's whole thing with Harlequin was equal parts Todd trying to figure himself out and Harlequin manipulating him with her glasses technology. So I could get behind those retcons for the most part.

It's when they pull this stunt on characters with decades of history and established sexualities that it really annoys me, especially since in the modern day it's basically done for no purpose other than to score woke points, rather than actually address any issues or tell interesting stories. It's also often done with all the subtly of a sledgehammer. While Iceman's forced sexuality conversion by Jean Grey stands out the most in my mind, the recent decisions to say that classic Alan Scott is also gay and that Tim Drake might also be gay or bi-sexual are also very blunt force trauma and badly handled.

For me, it comes down to this: if a person's sexuality matters, then it matters equally for everyone. Iceman being straight is no less important and integral to the character than Northstar being gay. If it isn't cool to suddenly make Northstar straight, then it isn't cool to make Iceman gay. If you're going to have a closeted character come out of said closet, then it has to be baked into the character from the get go, not retroactively done because you want to "finally make X character gay". If you want to make a character gay, go the Bunker route and just make a new character who is gay. People will applaud you for it and it'll be way less controversial (and stupid) than changing an existing character's sexuality.

It honestly comes off as a kind of backhanded pandering, similar to when they put a minority character into a costume previously held by a straight white male. It's like they're saying that instead of creating a new character to actually represent the groups they claim to want to represent, all they can do is just swap in someone with the gender, race, sexuality and politics they want into an established character slot, replacing rather than adding to the comic book setting.

Sorry, been a while since I made this rant, but the recent Alan Scott/Tim Drake stuff just kind of brought it back to the forefront.
-In any case, that JLA book was rebooted without him, and despite a very-cool costume, Obsidian fell into disuse.
You aren't lying about the costume design. Jerry Ordway did an AMAZING job with Obsidian, probably the overall best of the Infinity Inc. cast (though Nuklon, Silver Scarab, Jade and Brainwave Jr. all had solid looks, IMO.)
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Skavenger
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Alan Scott! Jade! Obsidian!)

Post by Skavenger »

I’ve personally felt that comics are in a genuine “no win” situation when it comes to minority characters sometimes. Granted, being mostly an industry of aging white men doesn’t help, but I’ve seen both companies attempt to create characters who either just didn’t “click” with audiences or just failed to hold their own title. Luke Cage had some success but seems to do better on a team book. Storm has only ever had miniseries. Black Lightning had his own book but is now a permanent B-team member. Mr. Terrific’s solo attempt failed and The Terrifics was...bearable if ridiculously inconsistent (I vividly remember being perplexed how a female character’s outfit changed primary colors between the end of one issue and the start of the next when no time had passed, and the art team hadn’t changed!), White Tiger is one of those characters you throw into a book when it’s nearing the end of its run... it’s rare you get a Miles Morales or Kamala Khan that audiences latch on to.

So they attempt the legacy route by making Jane Foster Thor, Ironheart into Iron Man, Falcon into Cap...and fans revolt. It was a lot at once, but the stuff I heard from comic fans was almost terrifying. “Cap shouldn’t be a political book” was the one that made my head hurt the most.

They can’t (often) win if they make a character for a specific group because it’s “pandering.” They can’t make a legacy character into a minority because “it’s just showmanship and trying to be woke.” They can’t reboot a character as a minority because “being a white guy is intrinsic to the character.” I love comics, but I look at the constantly falling sales numbers, watch the news about closing stores, and I wonder if it wouldn’t just be more merciful to walk the industry around back and put a bullet in its head to end the suffering.

I’m genuinely interested to see if there’s going to be a backlash against DC if they do go through with this transfer of mantles to the next generation, or if it’s just going to be temporary.
Jabroniville
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The To-Do List

Post by Jabroniville »

Okay, so here's a list of the builds I'll be doing:

GREEN LANTERNS: A whole hell of a lot of builds of guys with the same powers.

Hal, Kyle, Guy, John, Simon & Jessica (the Earth GLs)
Kilowog
Salaak
Tomar-Re & Tomar-Tu
Ch'p
Katma Tui
Arisia
Bzzd
Galius Zed
Hannu
Mogo
Sodam Yat
Charlie Vicker
The Green Man
Soranik Natu
G'nort
Boodikka
Baseline GLs (Elite, Moderate & Rookie)

THE CORPS: Various Corps, their "baseline" stats, their chief members, and a mini-bio on their "Entity" (as each usually only showed up once).

* The Sinestro Corps (Sinestro, Bedovian, Arkillo)
* The Blue Lantern Corps (Saint Walker)
* The Red Lantern Corps (Atrocitus, Bleez, Laira, Dex-Starr)
* The Indigo Tribe (Indigo-1)
* The Star Sapphires (Carol Ferris, 5 other Star Sapphires, Fatality)
* Larfleeze
* Black Lanterns

COSMIC GUYS: Random space guys.
Guardians of the Universe
The Controllers
The Zamarons
Nekron

ALLIES:
Tom Kalmaku
The Darkstars

VILLAINS:
Effigy
Grayven
Doctor Ub'x
Mongul I-II
Mongal
Black Hand
Doctor Polaris
Goldface
The Time Commander
The Demolition Team
Hector Hammond
Evil Star
Major Disaster
Major Force
Sonar I-II
The Shark
The Invisible Destroyer
The Spider Guild
Myrwhydden
The Tattooed Man I-III
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Tattooedman
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Re: The To-Do List

Post by Tattooedman »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:02 am The Tattooed Man I-III
My personal favorite, for obvious reasons. :D
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:45 pm
LOl- "The Tattooed Man"? What kind of ABSOLUTE DILDO would refer to himself as "The Tattooed Man" :P!?!
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Alan Scott! Jade! Obsidian!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Skavenger wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:54 am I’ve personally felt that comics are in a genuine “no win” situation when it comes to minority characters sometimes. Granted, being mostly an industry of aging white men doesn’t help, but I’ve seen both companies attempt to create characters who either just didn’t “click” with audiences or just failed to hold their own title. Luke Cage had some success but seems to do better on a team book. Storm has only ever had miniseries. Black Lightning had his own book but is now a permanent B-team member. Mr. Terrific’s solo attempt failed and The Terrifics was...bearable if ridiculously inconsistent (I vividly remember being perplexed how a female character’s outfit changed primary colors between the end of one issue and the start of the next when no time had passed, and the art team hadn’t changed!), White Tiger is one of those characters you throw into a book when it’s nearing the end of its run... it’s rare you get a Miles Morales or Kamala Khan that audiences latch on to.

So they attempt the legacy route by making Jane Foster Thor, Ironheart into Iron Man, Falcon into Cap...and fans revolt. It was a lot at once, but the stuff I heard from comic fans was almost terrifying. “Cap shouldn’t be a political book” was the one that made my head hurt the most.

They can’t (often) win if they make a character for a specific group because it’s “pandering.” They can’t make a legacy character into a minority because “it’s just showmanship and trying to be woke.” They can’t reboot a character as a minority because “being a white guy is intrinsic to the character.” I love comics, but I look at the constantly falling sales numbers, watch the news about closing stores, and I wonder if it wouldn’t just be more merciful to walk the industry around back and put a bullet in its head to end the suffering.

I’m genuinely interested to see if there’s going to be a backlash against DC if they do go through with this transfer of mantles to the next generation, or if it’s just going to be temporary.
I think one of the biggest issues Marvel had was attempting to switch every single hero into a minority and/or woman at once- it came off as pandering and heavy-handed. Like, I consider it a worthy enough endeavor, and the "let's push minority characters that already existed!" thing never took (my Misty Knight build contains a large bit about how the failure for her to take off is what probably led to the replacement character surge) so if you wanted big name minorities the only way to make them important was to make legacies... but hoo boy, that just doesn't work. In part because the nature of comics is to ignore the legacies and bring back the originals (which has happened in every case except Wally West's... until that one was rolled back, too).

Comics has a "New Character Problem" at the best of times- almost nobody since the 1970s has really "stuck". When you create a new character, they lack any of the important history that makes someone part of a combined continuity important, so it's harder for a following creative team to care about them enough to use them... which is why all the characters since the '70s usually end up discarded and themselves replaced. It'd be impossible to make any of the minority characters stick without making them retroactive.
Jabroniville
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Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)

Post by Jabroniville »

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Man, they barely changed that costume ONE IOTA in over fifty years. That thing came out of the first issue just PERFECT.

HAL JORDAN, GREEN LANTERN OF SECTOR 2814 (aka The Spectre, Parallax)
Created By:
John Broome & Gil Kane
First Appearance: Showcase #22 (Oct. 1959)
Role: He-Man Test Pilot, Man-Whore, Flying Blaster
Group Affiliations: The Justice League of America, The Green Lantern Corps.
PL 13 (232)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Athletics 2 (+4)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+10)
Deception 2 (+6)
Expertise (Military) 4 (+6)
Insight 2 (+5)
Intimidation 1 (+5)
Investigation 3 (+6)
Perception 3 (+6)
Persuasion 3 (+7)
Ranged Combat (GL Blasts) 2 (+11)
Stealth 2 (+6)
Technology 3 (+5)
Vehicles 3 (+7)
Vehicles 8 (+15) -- Flaws: Limited to Aircraft

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Defensive Attack, Diehard, Fearless, Improved Critical (Blast) 2, Improved Aim, Interpose, Luck, Move-By Action, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 5, Set-Up, Teamwork, Ultimate Will Save

Powers:
"Oan Green Lantern Ring" (Flaws: Removable) [115]
(Feats: Restricted- Overcomes Great Fear, Unbreakable)

Create 15 (Feats: Precise, Dynamic) (Extras: Impervious 13, Movable 12) (57) -- (81)
  • Dynamic AE: Blast 15 (Feats: Dynamic, Precise, Penetrating 8) (41)
  • Dynamic AE: "Multi-Blast" Blast 12 (Feats: Dynamic, Penetrating 5) (Extras: Multiattack) (43)
  • Dynamic AE: "Area Blast" Damage 12 (Feats: Dynamic, Penetrating 8) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Line) (33)
  • Dynamic AE: "Area Blast" Damage 12 (Feats: Dynamic, Penetrating 8) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Shapeable) (33)
  • Dynamic AE: Snare 14 (Feats: Dynamic, Reversible) (44)
  • Dynamic AE: Snare 12 (Feats: Dynamic, Reversible) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Shapeable) (Flaws: Touch Range) (38)
  • Dynamic AE: Move Object 16 (Feats: Dynamic) (33)
  • Dynamic AE: Immunity 7 (Heat, Cold, Pressure, Radiation, Vacuum, Suffocation 2) (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Affects Others Only +0, 30ft. Burst, Ranged) (22)
  • Dynamic AE: "Boosted Field" Force Field 6 (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Impervious 15, Affects Others 12) (35)
  • Dynamic AE: "Flashlight" Environment 1 (Light) (Feats: Dynamic) (2)
  • Dynamic AE: "Ring Sensors" Senses 7 (Feats: Dynamic) (Detect Energy & Life- Ranged 2 & Analytical, Communication Link- Central Power Battery) (12)
  • Dynamic AE: Communication (Electronic) 5 (Feats: Dynamic) (Flaws: Green Lanterns Only after 3 ranks) (19)
Immunity 8 (Poison, Heat, Cold, Pressure, Vacuum, Radiation, Suffocation 2) (8)
Flight 9 (1,000 mph) (18)
Movement 3 (Space Travel 2, Environmental Adaptation- Zero Gravity) (6)

"Standard Force Field" Force Field 6 (Extras: Impervious 7) (13)
"Universal Translator" Comprehend 4 (Languages 4) (8)
Enhanced Advantages 5: Equipment 5- Green Lantern Database (5)
Features 2: Quick Change 2 (2)
-- (141 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Blast +11 (+15 Ranged Damage, DC 30)
Multi-Blast +11 (+12 Ranged Damage, DC 27)
Area Blasts +12 (+12 Damage, DC 27)
Snare +11 (+14 Ranged Affliction, DC 24)
Area Snare +12 (+12 Affliction, DC 22)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +3 (+10 Standard Field, +16 Full Field, +4-11 Impervious), Fortitude +6, Will +12

Complications:
Power Loss (Will)- Green Lantern Rings depend upon the Will of their wielder. If Hal fails a Will Save (such as from being intimidated or mentally-screwed with), he will drop Constructs and Force Fields.
Power Loss (Out of Energy)- Power Rings must be recharged via their Lanterns occasionally, and will run out of power after extended use.
Power Loss (High Levels of Power)- Green Lanterns must pass Will Saves to bring their power effects any higher than their natural Will Save +2 (in Hal's case, 14). This includes Blasts, Move Object & Force Fields.
Responsibility (The Green Lantern Corps)
Relationship (Carol Ferris)- The two are continuously-linked to each other over the years.
Relationship (Barry Allen)- The two are old pals.
Relationship (Oliver Queen)- The BEST pals in the DCU were these two.
Responsibility (Rebel)- Rather than the standard military man/cop of the old days, Hal is now a cocky rebel, who often disregards authority and acts like a cocky Fighter Pilot (which is what he is).
Rivalry (Batman)- Batman is one of the few heroes to refuse that Hal Jordan has "reformed" from his days as Parallax, and openly-distrusts him. He never liked Hal's arrogance and lack of deference to others.

Total: Abilities: 60 / Skills: 36--18 / Advantages: 19 / Powers: 115 / Defenses: 20 (232)

Hal Jordan- The Second Big Silver Age Revamp:
-With the success of The Flash concept being revived in 1956, Editor Julius Schwartz decided that recreating ANOTHER successful Golden Age act would be a great idea, and so ordered a new Green Lantern- one different from the old. So John Broome & Gil Kane got together, made a brown-haired dude named Hal Jordan their new hero, and gave him a FANTASTIC costume- one of the best of the Silver Age. I feel like the Green Lantern outfit doesn't get enough credit- the green is eye-popping, and the white & black give an impressive silhouette and prevent bright colors from overwhelming the design. It's one of the few Silver Age looks that could show up tomorrow and still look brand-new, and you can modify it only slightly to fit any number of bizarre aliens and still look both "correct" and recognizable. It just WORKS.

-In any case, the famous origin sees test pilot Hal Jordan confronted by a dying alien man named Abin Sur. Sur identifies himself as one of the Green Lantern Corps- an organization of "Space Cops" who oversee justice across the entire universe at the behest of the ancient Guardians of the Universe, and gives Hal a "Power Ring"- a device that copies many of the Golden Age Green Lantern's powers, but mostly Flight & Energy Constructs, with the weakness now the color yellow instead of things made of wood.

-Hal thus acts as both an ordinary superhero and one of comics' first interstellar heroes. And the whole "Army of Superheroes" thing was BRAND spanking new to comics, though the idea was very, VERY similar to the Galactic Patrol of the 1940s-50s sci-fi series Lensman, which featured an army of alien heroes using the same gear (called a "Lens", it bestowed telepathic, language translation and other powers), led by an hyper-intelligent elder alien race called the Arisians. Editor Julius Schwartz predictably said it was a coincidence, but later writers were cute about it and named a GL "Arisia" in honor of then Lensman origins. Humorously, a Lensman anime I saw decades ago copied the "Take Up My Weapon, Earthman" origin almost exactly, but I'm not sure if that was part of any original tale (I can't find any evidence of it).

Hal Jordan- Silver Age Hero:
-So Hal had a full cast of characters- a Love Interest in Carol Ferris (who, entertainingly-enough, was his boss), and a best pal in "Eskimo" mechanic Tom Kalmaku (called "Pieface", because this was 1959- however, he was at least depicted as a competent professional with great skills, so this counts as "Fair For Its Day"). He got a variety of super-villains, including the weird big-head guy Sinestro- a former GL who was disgraced, and new wielded a yellow Power Ring. Gardner Fox joined the book, and the creative team stayed the same for about eleven years. However, Hal's success didn't extend past the Silver Age (to be fair, few heroes' did), and his book got a "Relevant Issues" upgrade by pairing him with Green Arrow, just before cancellation hit in 1972. Hal was portrayed as the "establishment" and law & order, while Ollie echoed writer Denny O'Neil's leftist/anarchist politics. Along the way, Hal became (along with Reed Richards) one of comics' few heroes with greying temples.

-Hal would take a four-year break (appearing in back-up stories in other books) before restarting his series in 1976- after another six years, he resigns to hook up with Carol, and is replaced as GL by John Stewart during the Crisis on Infinite Earths (so misses out on that big story ENTIRELY, even though his good buddy Barry Allen dies in it), rejoins them Post-Crisis, hooks up with Arisia, and becomes part of a bigger Corps with more explanations given as to the members.

Hal Goes Nuts & Misses the '90s:
-Unfortunately, the 1990s would be unkind to Hal Jordan, to say the leasst. His home of Coast City would be destroyed by Darkseid-Lite- I mean MONGUL, and Hal would eventually go nuts. When the Guardians admonished him for trying to recreate the city with his Ring, Hal goes full-on insane, attacks the Corps, steals their Rings, murders Sinestro and Kilowog (the latter is of course a FRIEND), then finishes off the friggin' Guardians of the Universe! Becoming the supervillainous Parallax, he gets mixed up with Extant and Zero Hour, and is only barely defeated- in the next big arc, he sacrifices his life to reignite the Sun, attempting to make amends. Following this, Hal becomes the new Spectre, attempting to become a "Spirit of Redemption" instead of Vengeance. And all of this, of course, was a means to an end- writers were annoyed at the existence of a massive army of powerful beings, and so ensured that the entire Green Lantern Corps were wiped out- many prominent ones were maimed or killed, notable survivors (like Guy Gardner & John Stewart) were given new identities completely separate (like "Warrior" or as a Darkstar), and more.

-And all of this, of course, led to the nerdy artist Kyle Rayner being made the new Green Lantern, the sole one in the cosmos- Hal was almost specifically torn down and made a monster to "justify" Kyle's role and make sure nobody wanted Hal back... which of course failed miserably. Hal-As-Spectre ended up getting his own book (which lasted a mere 27 issues) and appearing in SEVERAL other DC isues for years (including many JSA issues, where he was generally pretty worthless- though he did resurrect Oliver Queen!) while Kyle got not only a big solo book, but a big superheroine girlfriend (Donna Troy) and a cushy spot on Grant Morrison's JLA book, which ended up making him a superstar. This all leads to Hal missing out on not only that book, but the Timmverse DC Animated Universe shows, which used first Kyle, then John as GLs in the long-running, well-respected cartoons, turning John into as iconic a Lantern as Hal.

Hal vs. Kyle- Then Rebirth:
-The Hal/Kyle stuff was highly-controversial (largely due to the ham-handed way in which they wiped out Hal, his heroic identity, and the ENTIRE CORPS), but as I got into DC with Hal already being dead, I never felt any love for the character. And when he was brought back in a huge way in 2004, they threw JSA's Geoff Johns on the book, and did gangbusters with it- Johns added a HUGE amount of stuff to the GL Mythos, added an explanation for Hal's out-of-character behavior (Alien Monstrosity, naturally- it even explained away his greying temples!), a new supporting cast (which was COMPLETELY IGNORED the second the other Ring-bearing Corps were introduced), and more. Johns thankfully didn't just dump Kyle, and then he basically reintroduced the entire Corps (including several of the "dead" ones), meaning the last ten years was basically a pointless break that meant nothing- suddenly we had Hal, Kyle, Guy Gardner and John Stewart as their own little superhero team, allied with many other beloved characters (and plenty of newbies with an interesting concept or two).

-I kind of ignored the book after Rebirth (which means I have no knowledge of his supporting cast like "Cowgirl" or Hal's brother, because they NEVER APPEAR LATER), but picked up the Sinestro Corps War trade and LOVED it- giving Hal's old nemesis his own Corps, complete with insanely-evil characters like Arkillo, Kryb (*shudder*) and more, was a stroke of genius. Especially since we didn't have to deal with his weak-ass Rogues Gallery (I still think the movie would have done better if they hadn't advertised HECTOR FREAKING HAMMOND as a big villain). Of course, Johns then went off the rails and made an ENTIRE EMOTIONAL SPECTRUM, which meant diluting the concept of "energy-wielding Ring-bearers" even more than having *7200* Green Lanterns did! Johns clearly worshipped Hal Jordan as a character, but thankfully didn't just have him do everything by himself. Like, the whole "Hal is Best" thing could be a bit heavy-handed, but nowhere near as bad as it could have been, given what was going on in comics around this time (Loeb's Superman, etc.).

-Green Lantern and Green Lantern Corps. would keep it up with the big events, and I'd keep collecting it... though I'll be damned if it didn't start to suck after a point. Part of the issue was the endless, unforgiveable evil of The Guardians of Oa, turned by Johns into an increasingly-nasty bunch of emotionless bastards. I swear I purchased some of the worst, most plodding comics I've ever read just to get to the END of that damn story- I HAD to see them punished and killed for their atrocities. I just HAD to. It and The Titans are the only times I've ever collected awful runs just to complete a run. Blackest Night had some good moments, but was a tad bloated- at least we got all the Lanterns (including weirdos like Larfleeze the greedy Orange Lantern) teaming up to save the day.

Hal Jordan as a Whole:
-In the end... I'm still not really that enamored of Hal Jordan. I came out of all the GL stuff liking several characters more than him- he just comes off as this weird combination of too much of an Alpha Male and BORING (which is an odd combo). I just don't find him that interesting- maybe he's just a bit too sure of himself, without going over the top. Arrogance is a fun character trait in some characters, though in Hal's case it comes off more like self-assuredness due to his skills and talents, which makes it not that funny- it's like the douche who CAN back up his ego, and never receives any comeuppance for it. Also, it comes off like the writers living vicariously through The Ideal Male or something. And OH GOD, his relationship with Carol! SO FREAKING BORING. I cannot imagine two characters with less chemistry- it's like we're just supposed to accept that they're in love and the stars are aligned and all that junk, when really they just seem like there's nothing behind it.

-The funny thing about Hal Jordan is he actually missed several huge chunks of time, and wasn't really AS big as he's sometimes treated- he hit pretty big in 1959, but by 1971 he was gone for ages and wasn't even a part of many big '80s books, and then the '90s hit and he was toast. And then DC tries to make him the first big non-Batman & Superman hero to get a superstar movie... and they put then-unproven Ryan Reynolds in a movie that ends up being a huge bomb. This embarrasses DC so much they end up looking like permanent also-rans to Marvel (like they were for most of the '70s & '90s), and did a horrendous amount of damage to their credibility... and even results in GL missing the Justice League movie- the movie did so poorly that unfortunate Hal was exiled from cinemas!

Hal Jordan's Powers:
-Hal is among the most elite Green Lanterns- as I see the DCU a tad higher in average PL than Marvel's world, I made the second-tier hero a PL 13 Blaster. This doesn't include all the crazy shit the rings could do in the Silver Age, at which point they were more a high-tier "Variable" weapon. There, Hal could do crazy stuff like wipe memories (he did this A LOT, often wiping people's minds so his identity remained a secret), reverse metamorphosis, etc. Like, he could literally do ANYTHING so long as his mind could think it and his will could power it.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Alan Scott! Jade! Obsidian!)

Post by Ares »

Skavenger wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:54 am I’ve personally felt that comics are in a genuine “no win” situation when it comes to minority characters sometimes. Granted, being mostly an industry of aging white men doesn’t help, but I’ve seen both companies attempt to create characters who either just didn’t “click” with audiences or just failed to hold their own title.
I don't think the "mostly an industry of aging white men" is really a fair statement. When you have a country that is between 60-to-70% white, having a white majority in a lot of fields shouldn't come as a surprise. That most most creators are men also isn't a surprise since comics started as cheap entertainment for young boys in the way that Pulp novels were entertainment for teenagers, young men and adults. Comics just proved more popular than expected and were soon being read by teens and adults as well, especially soldiers going off to war. There was a societal perception that superheroes were "a boys hobby" for the longest time, until reading comics and other "geek" hobbies became more acceptable in general, especially with girls and women having interests in those hobbies being more accepted as well.

And don't misinterpret that last part. In general, it wasn't the majority male audience for geek media keeping women out. For a long time there was a social stigma associated with less traditional masculine and feminine hobbies. There's a reason jocks and cheerleaders tended to get portrayed as the bullies in a lot of media and the people being picked on were the folks interested in art, books, science, etc. Most male geeks would have been happy to have a girl that shared their hobbies, but as bad as male geeks had it from other guys, female geeks would have had it worse from other girls, especially in the teen years. Similarly, there's an adage about black geeks having to know how to fight, because they get beat up for not having interests in traditional "black" hobbies like music and sports. Most of the gatekeeping historically done was by people who didn't partake of geek hobbies that would torment people who did want to partake in said hobbies.

Was there actual gatekeeping done by some white male geeks? Absolutely. But that's a result of any hobby getting big enough. To quote the sage Dresden, "Any group that becomes big enough becomes an organization, and every organization has it's assholes". For the most part tho, the only thing that matters to people who share a hobby is a sincere love of said hobby. That love for those hobbies can build bridges if it's allowed to. It's why now there's plenty of women who are actually into geek media and sports while men aren't automatically ostracized for interests in fashion.

And even then, there have been women and minorities in most geek industries since the late 70s and early 80s. The most powerful person in DC Comics during the 80s was female editor in chief Jenette Kahn. The Cyberpunk RPG franchise was created by a black man. Christopher Priest wrote Marvel's flagship character, Spider-Man. Jim Lee got to work on some of the most popular characters of Marvel.

I genuinely think that, for the most part, the people that got into comics in the past were the people passionate enough to want to be a part of the industry and who were willing to do the work to get in. A contributing factor to current comics issues is that there are a lot of people who saw the popularity of superhero films and now want to use comics as a stepping stone for a movie career, a Netflix TV series or a book deal. They'd got no real interest in comics, but they'll happily use them to make a name for themselves and move on to other things, not caring about what damage they'll do. And if they get a platform to spout their own agendas, well, they'll use it.

Luke Cage had some success but seems to do better on a team book. Storm has only ever had miniseries. Black Lightning had his own book but is now a permanent B-team member. Mr. Terrific’s solo attempt failed and The Terrifics was...bearable if ridiculously inconsistent (I vividly remember being perplexed how a female character’s outfit changed primary colors between the end of one issue and the start of the next when no time had passed, and the art team hadn’t changed!), White Tiger is one of those characters you throw into a book when it’s nearing the end of its run... it’s rare you get a Miles Morales or Kamala Khan that audiences latch on to.
You forgot Black Panther, a character created in the 60s by two Jewish men, was a regular Marvel mainstay throughout the 70s and 80s, and became incredibly popular in the 90s and early 2000's thanks to the work Christopher Priest put into the character. And who then went on to star in a movie that made a billion dollars. Or the fact that Blade was the character that really jumpstarted the comic book movie renaissance that led to the X-Men, which led to Spider-Man, which led to the Nolan Batman films, which led to the MCU.

There's no denying that the most popular characters in comics, characters like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man and the like have a lot of cultural inertia behind them. They were created during the early days of comics, they resonated with fans and there's a lot of cultural love for them. But it's just as easy to make a side character popular with the right creative team.

The X-Men were a C-List book until the late 70s, where they became Marvel's most popular franchise for decades, and during half of that era of popularity they were led by a black woman. Iron Man was largely a B-List hero until his movie came out, after which his popularity exploded and he almost became the face of Marvel over Spider-Man. Static was a character created in the 90s that proved popular enough to get his own multi-season animated series. John Stewart became what an entire generation of kids thought of as Green Lantern thanks to the Justice League cartoon, and Cyborg has similarly gotten repeat media exposure. Deadpool became one of Marvel's most popular characters once writers really embraced the fun aspect of the character, to the point of being almost obnoxiously ubiquitous. Robert Kirkman turned his Walking Dead and Invincible comics into a media franchise that is raking in cash and proving popular.

The right creative team and proper push can elevate almost any character. Just as that same character can be brought down by poor creative decisions. Both Black Panther and Iron Fist became immensely popular after well done comic runs, but as soon as new creative teams took over, the books tanked because the new creators weren't up to the same standards of writing. It would take time and effort to bring both back to prominence. And while T'Challa is currently enjoying a lot of popularity thanks to his appearances in the MCU, Danny is suffering because his Netflix show did a sub-par job of portraying the character.

It's not enough to create a character and expect them to be popular. It takes work, a genuine love of the medium, proper promotion and often the right timing. And unfortunately, a lot of creators aren't willing to put in that time and effort. They just create a character and apparently expect them to be popular because they've got the right gender, orientation or ethnicity. It sadly doesn't work that way. You have no control over what readers/viewers/consumers will or won't like. You can only do your best work, promote it the best you can, and hope for the best.
So they attempt the legacy route by making Jane Foster Thor, Ironheart into Iron Man, Falcon into Cap...and fans revolt.
Well yeah. Same way they did when Jean-Paul Valley became Batman. Because Batman isn't truly a mantle. Batman is a character. And under the mask, that character's name is Bruce Wayne. The same way Peter Parker is Spider-Man, Steve Rogers is Captain America, that Thor is Thor, so on and so forth.

Characters aren't just a collection of Powers stuffed inside a cool costume with a nifty name. They have a personality. A history. We get to know them and we get invested in that character. And that's the key word there: "investment". It's why character portrayal matters. Zack Snyder told everyone that the person in Man of Steel was Clark Kent / Kal-El / Superman, and most people didn't believe him because the guy they saw on screen acted almost entirely different from how Superman is supposed to act. Ditto for Superman Returns' creepy stalker disappearing dad Superman.

Have replacement heroes worked before? Sure, but only in small doses, and usually so that the replacement can be spun off into their own book when the original character comes back to assume their role. That's honestly the best way to do it, because as readers we don't want to see a beloved character replaced, we want them to continue on. But in the same way, we're open to new characters, even new characters in a familiar outfit, so long as we get the old one back and the new one gets their own identity. Having a dozen replacement heroes all at once was never going to do anything but tick fans off.

I mean, it's telling that Miles Morales and Kamala Khan (the latter whose popularity I think is exaggerated) are referred to by their real names and not their superhero names. When people say "Spider-Man", 99% of the time they're thinking of Peter Parker, because Peter Parker IS Spider-Man. Miles is never going to be his own character unless he gets his own name. Make him the new Scarlet Spider or something new that he can grow into, so that when people say that superhero name, you know who they're talking about without having to say Miles' full name every time.
It was a lot at once, but the stuff I heard from comic fans was almost terrifying. “Cap shouldn’t be a political book” was the one that made my head hurt the most.
That's somewhat disingenuous. There's a difference between politics appearing in a comic and a book being political. Readers expect to see politics in comics in the same way they expect to see cars, cell phones, television sets and blue skies. Politics are a part of the world, so we expect to see some political representation in our fiction.

When media "gets political", it goes from having politics in said media to said media being a platform for a political agenda. While Captain America has dealt with politics, Cap himself was always politically neutral, because the writers understood that someone who embodies the best of America cannot pick one side of the political divide over the other. Because as hard as it is for some people to grasp, the Right and the Left are not evil and neither side is better than the other. They're just two groups who put different priorities on different things.

When media gets political, it almost always comes off as propaganda, with enough strawmen to set the world ablaze. They're all too happy to demonize their political opponents, put their words in the mouths of villains, and basically alienate at least half of their potential audience by making them the bad guys. This often drives away people they're appealing to as well, because they recognize propaganda when they see it and they know when they're being pandered to. And when they're focused that much on a political message, the writing often suffers because the politics is more important than the story craft.

A Captain America story where back room politics has the government strip Steve Rogers of his rank as Captain America and have him replaced with John Walker? That's not only fine, it's one of the classic Captain America stories. A Captain America story where Cap is turned into a Nazi and Hydra is used as an allegory for the Trump administration? We saw how that turned out.
They can’t (often) win if they make a character for a specific group because it’s “pandering.” They can’t make a legacy character into a minority because “it’s just showmanship and trying to be woke.” They can’t reboot a character as a minority because “being a white guy is intrinsic to the character.” I love comics, but I look at the constantly falling sales numbers, watch the news about closing stores, and I wonder if it wouldn’t just be more merciful to walk the industry around back and put a bullet in its head to end the suffering.
Like I said, the major failing of the comic industry is that it's full of people who don't actually care about comics. Some of them saw that superheroes are popular and want to get into the industry so that they can use it to get deals in Hollywood. Other creators want to write comic stories, but they don't actually care about the pre-existing characters. They have a story they want to tell and they will break characters to make them fit the stories they want to tell. And in a lot of cases, both creators put any agenda they have over story quality or character presentation.

A lack of genuine talent interested in telling stories about their characters is only half the problem tho. The industry has fallen into bad tactics, using things like #1 series relaunches, cover gimmicks, repeat event comic crossovers and shelf flooding that they're driving old readers away and damaging comic shops. Those same gimmicks, lack of promotion and reliance on comic shops is also preventing new readers from getting involved.

If the industry wants to survive, it needs to change. It needs to cut out the bloat (both in terms of number of books and in terms of creators who aren't good for the industry), dialing things back to where the number of ongoing books are something a single reader could conceivably collect and not go bankrupt. Something like 12-to-20 monthly series. Everything else is mini-series, maxi-series, trades and one offs to expose lesser known characters and potentially get them their own ongoings as sales improve. There need to be a series of low continuity gateway books to get new readers into comics and those need to be available in places like book stores, supermarkets, drug stores, gas stations, anywhere people could buy a new book cheap and get interested. And there needs to be digital support, as well as promotion in other media. The prices for individual books needs to be scaled back to make them fun entertainment people can afford. And most of all, you need creators that respect and love the characters and want to tell stories that showcase to people why they should love these characters.

As for "being a white guy is intrinsic to the character", I view a character's race the same way I do their sexuality: if it's important that one race/gender/religion is considered important/intrinsic to a character, then every race/gender/religion should be considered important/intrinsic to that character. Superman being white should be considered no less important than Black Panther being black or Kamala Khan being Middle Eastern and Muslim. Alan Scott being a straight white male is no less important than Grace Choi being a bi-sexual Asian-American woman. If you want to tell a story about a character with a Superman-like origin and powerset, you don't put Michael B. Jordan in a Superman costume and call him Clark Kent, you make an Icon and Rocket movie.

As Stan Lee put it:

“I wouldn’t mind, if Peter Parker had originally been black, a Latino, an Indian or anything else, that he stay that way. But we originally made him white. I don’t see any reason to change that.

I think the world has a place for gay superheroes, certainly. But again, I don’t see any reason to change the sexual proclivities of a character once they’ve already been established. I have no problem with creating new, homosexual superheroes.

It has nothing to do with being anti-gay, or anti-black, or anti-Latino, or anything like that. Latino characters should stay Latino. The Black Panther should certainly not be Swiss. I just see no reason to change that which has already been established when it’s so easy to add new characters. I say create new characters the way you want to. Hell, I’ll do it myself.”


And given Stan helped create the Black Panther and Falcon in an era when doing so was actually kind of risky, I'll take him at his word.

The comic industry isn't beyond saving. It just needs to lose some of its toxic business practices and focus on quality talent that actually cares about the characters.

And it's entirely possible to create new franchises that appeal to the demographics people want. Steven Universe had a lot of LGBTQ themes, Avatar the Last Airbender focused entirely on a setting with Asian themes, etc. People just have to be willing to put in the work and love, promote it as best they can, and then put it out there and hope for the best. Whether it succeeds or fails is beyond their control, but they can give it the best chance they can. And if it fails, that doesn't necessarily reflect poorly on them. Plenty of good franchises died before their time due to factors beyond the creators control, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for said creations or that it's the fans fault.
I’m genuinely interested to see if there’s going to be a backlash against DC if they do go through with this transfer of mantles to the next generation, or if it’s just going to be temporary.
Like I said, mantle changing is a tricky thing, because people love the character wearing said mantle, not the mantle itself. A Batman without Bruce Wayne is just someone else wearing Batman's outfit. And regardless of what outfit Sam Wilson is wearing or if he has a shield or not, I'm going to call him Sam or The Falcon, because those are his names and identities. If DC wants to promote new characters, I'm all for things like Nubia finally getting her own series and time to shine, for Milestone characters to get promoted and integrated into the DCU, for any number of things. But if they think that fans are going to react positively to massive mantle passing, they're in for a surprise.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Alan Scott! Thorn! Jade! Obsidian! Hal Jordan!)

Post by Ares »

It is kind of funny how Hal Jordan, probably the most iconic Green Lantern, was basically missing in action for what is arguably the biggest story in DC Comics: Crisis on Infinite Earths. Virtually every major character in DC makes an appearance in that series . . . except Hal. It's kind of weird.

As for Hal, I like Hal, but he's been incredibly inconsistent over the years, often because writers tend to bend his personality depending on who he's with. When he's partnered up with Green Arrow, Hal is the straight laced conservative to Ollie's more firecracker liberal. When he's paired with Barry Allen, Hal is the 'fly by the seat of his pants' cocky fighter pilot while Barry is the straight laced, level headed scientist. And a lot of writers have basically made him this insufferable jackass who comes off as a slightly less abrasive Guy Gardner, who is supposed to be the cocky jackass of the Lanterns.

The way I see Hal is that he should be more like the actual Captain Kirk of the original Star Trek. He's brave, confident, has a sense of humor and love of adventure, but he's also a firm believer in the rules. He'll break those rules if he feels the need, but he does actually respect authority, care for his people and works well as a team. Being in the Air Force and the Lanterns should make Hal a great team player by default, not some reckless show off that doesn't play well with others. Basically, give Captain Kirk (again, OG Kirk, not the Abrams Kirk) a Power Ring, the Green Lantern code and some mild personality tweaks, and you should have a really fun character.

While I'm a fan of Wally West and John Stewart, I'm equally fans of Barry Allen and Hal Jordan. The simplest way I've explained in the past to make people understand how their characters and their dynamics could be fun is as follows:

Imagine Captain America and Iron Man. Now swap their professions. Barry Allen is the blonde-haired, blue-eyed, polite, well-mannered and supremely moral guy with old fashioned values, but he's a genius scientist. Hal Jordan is the confident, snarky guy with a deep-seated sense of responsibility, but he's a fearless soldier. Both are capable of being awesome, both have abilities that allow for incredible feats of power and displays of creativity, and both should easily be a lot of fun to read about.

To me, making Hal either boring or annoying is a failure on the writer.
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Re: Green Lantern (Hal Jordan)

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:48 pm Complications:
Power Loss (Will)- Green Lantern Rings depend upon the Will of their wielder. If Hal fails a Will Save (such as from being intimidated or mentally-screwed with), he will drop Constructs and Force Fields.
Power Loss (Out of Energy)- Power Rings must be recharged via their Lanterns occasionally, and will run out of power after extended use.
Power Loss (High Levels of Power)- Green Lanterns must pass Will Saves to bring their power effects any higher than their natural Will Save +2 (in Hal's case, 14). This includes Blasts, Move Object & Force Fields.
Responsibility (The Green Lantern Corps)
Relationship (Carol Ferris)- The two are continuously-linked to each other over the years.
Relationship (Barry Allen)- The two are old pals.
Relationship (Oliver Queen)- The BEST pals in the DCU were these two.
Responsibility (Rebel)- Rather than the standard military man/cop of the old days, Hal is now a cocky rebel, who often disregards authority and acts like a cocky Fighter Pilot (which is what he is).
Rivalry (Batman)- Batman is one of the few heroes to refuse that Hal Jordan has "reformed" from his days as Parallax, and openly-distrusts him. He never liked Hal's arrogance and lack of deference to others.

Hal Jordan's Powers:
-Hal is among the most elite Green Lanterns- as I see the DCU a tad higher in average PL than Marvel's world, I made the second-tier hero a PL 13 Blaster. This doesn't include all the crazy shit the rings could do in the Silver Age, at which point they were more a high-tier "Variable" weapon. There, Hal could do crazy stuff like wipe memories (he did this A LOT, often wiping people's minds so his identity remained a secret), reverse metamorphosis, etc. Like, he could literally do ANYTHING so long as his mind could think it and his will could power it.
You forgot Hal's goto Complication. It hasn't been in play in recent years, but for decades *due to a necessary impurity Green Lantern's power ring is powerless over anything yellow.

This was such a thing for Hal that one began to suspect that Hal had tritanopia, or at least tritanomaly, (the two types of blue-yellow color blindness). Seriously, he would regularly try his ring against something yellow, have it fail, and then comment about the target being yellow* (which would be foot-noted about the weakness). He's then try something clever. But it was if he either couldn't see that the target was yellow, or he kept forgetting the weakness.

The plus side is that it meant that he'd usually have a butt-load of hero points, so he could power stunt the memory wipes, reverse metamorphoses, or whatever else he could think of.

Also, Hal was Ollie's best friend. Barry was Hal's best friend. Barry was also Ralph's best friend, and Hal was Barry's best friend.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Alan Scott! Thorn! Jade! Obsidian! Hal Jordan!)

Post by Shock »

I always liked Hal Jordan as Green Lantern but mostly because of Super Friends. He had such a manly, commanding voice.
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Guy Gardner

Post by Jabroniville »

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"When I took over [Green Lantern], John Stewart was the GL, but everybody expect Hal Jordan to come back and relegate John to backup duty once again. I decided that John deserved better, so I asked myself, 'Why can't there be two GLs?' And that led to, 'Why can't there be more than two?' That eventually led to the GL Corps, but along the way, I decided to resurrect the lost GL, Guy Gardner, who had been terminally bland and then brain-damaged—a completely useless character, as things stood. I was being a good soldier, trying to help my friend Dick Giordano sell the book, and it turned out to be the second biggest mistake of my entire career because ever since, DC has claimed that since Joe and I didn't create the original Guy Gardner, our completely new take counts for nothing. If I had called the new guy Joe Smith we would have earned major royalties, but as it is, we get nothing, and we get dissed by the people we helped. So adding it all up, I wish I hadn't done it."
-Steve Englehart


GUY GARDNER, GREEN LANTERN OF SECTOR 2814
Created By:
John Broome & Gil Kane
First Appearance: Green Lantern #59 (March 1968)
Role: Boisterous Bruiser, Team Asshole
Group Affiliations: The Justice League of America, The Green Lantern Corps., The Red Lantern Corps.
PL 12 (205)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Athletics 4 (+7)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+9)
Expertise (Football Player) 3 (+6) -- Uses Strength
Expertise (Social Worker) 2 (+2)
Intimidation 4 (+5)
Investigation 3 (+4)
Perception 2 (+3)
Stealth 1 (+5)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Fast Grab, Fearless, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Blast), Power Attack, Precise Attack (Ranged/Cover), Ranged Attack 5, Startle, Ultimate Will Save

Powers:
"Oan Green Lantern Ring" (Flaws: Removable) [115]
(Feats: Restricted- Overcomes Great Fear, Unbreakable)

Create 15 (Feats: Precise, Dynamic) (Extras: Impervious 13, Movable 12) (57) -- (81)
  • Dynamic AE: Blast 15 (Feats: Dynamic, Precise, Penetrating 8) (41)
  • Dynamic AE: "Multi-Blast" Blast 12 (Feats: Dynamic, Penetrating 5) (Extras: Multiattack) (43)
  • Dynamic AE: "Area Blast" Damage 12 (Feats: Dynamic, Penetrating 8) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Line) (33)
  • Dynamic AE: "Area Blast" Damage 12 (Feats: Dynamic, Penetrating 8) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Shapeable) (33)
    Dynamic AE: Snare 14 (Feats: Dynamic, Reversible) (44)
  • Dynamic AE: Snare 12 (Feats: Dynamic, Reversible) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Shapeable) (Flaws: Touch Range) (38)
  • Dynamic AE: Move Object 16 (Feats: Dynamic) (33)
  • Dynamic AE: Immunity 7 (Heat, Cold, Pressure, Radiation, Vacuum, Suffocation 2) (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Affects Others Only +0, 30ft. Burst, Ranged) (22)
  • Dynamic AE: "Boosted Field" Force Field 5 (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Impervious 15, Affects Others 12) (34)
  • Dynamic AE: "Flashlight" Environment 1 (Light) (Feats: Dynamic) (2)
  • Dynamic AE: "Ring Sensors" Senses 7 (Feats: Dynamic) (Detect Energy & Life- Ranged 2 & Analytical, Communication Link- Central Power Battery) (12)
  • Dynamic AE: Communication (Electronic) 5 (Feats: Dynamic) (Flaws: Green Lanterns Only after 3 ranks) (19)
Immunity 8 (Poison, Heat, Cold, Pressure, Vacuum, Radiation, Suffocation 2) (8)
Flight 9 (1,000 mph) (18)
Movement 3 (Space Travel 2, Environmental Adaptation- Zero Gravity) (6)

"Standard Force Field" Force Field 6 (Extras: Impervious 7) (13)
"Universal Translator" Comprehend 4 (Languages 4) (8)
Enhanced Advantages 5: Equipment 5- Green Lantern Database (5)
Features 2: Quick Change 2 (2)
-- (141 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Blast +9 (+15 Ranged Damage, DC 30)
Multi-Blast +9 (+12 Ranged Damage, DC 27)
Area Blasts +12 (+12 Damage, DC 27)
Snare +9 (+14 Ranged Affliction, DC 24)
Area Snare +12 (+12 Affliction, DC 22)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +4 (+11 Standard Field, +16 Full Field, +4-11 Impervious), Fortitude +6, Will +10

Complications:
Power Loss (Will)- Green Lantern Rings depend upon the Will of their wielder. If Guy fails a Will Save (such as from being intimidated or mentally-screwed with), he will drop Constructs and Force Fields.
Power Loss (Out of Energy)- Power Rings must be recharged via their Lanterns occasionally, and will run out of power after extended use.
Power Loss (High Levels of Power)- Green Lanterns must pass Will Saves to bring their power effects any higher than their natural Will Save +2 (in Guy's case, 12). This includes Blasts, Move Object & Force Fields.
Responsibility (The Green Lantern Corps)
Relationship (Ice)- Guy loves Tora Olafsdotter, despite his clumsy ways of trying to get it across.
Rivalry (Batman)- ONE PUNCH!
Temper- Guy is prone to losing his temper- his Ring constantly sparks with energy, and he often reacts agressively in situations.

Total: Abilities: 50 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 14 / Powers: 115 / Defenses: 15 (205)

Guy Gardner- Temporary Replacement to Douchebag to Hero:
-Guy Gardner has undergone numerous changes over the years- he debuted as a big of a he-man who replaced Hal Jordan tempoararily as Green Lantern of Earth, but Steve Englehart & Joe Staton turned him into a bit of a doofus in the 1980s, making him a jingoistic parody of "red-blooded American males"- Englehart, a hippie at heart, probably took issue with this personality type and wanted to mock it. Exactly how affectionate this parody is depends on the writer- Guy is occasionally almost charming in his clumsy boorishness (a bit like Elias Koteas as Casey Jones in the TMNT movie), but other times is depicted as a massive braying ass, leading to the infamous "One Punch!" panel and eternal running gag.

-Guy debuted as an athlete who got injured, ruining his potential career, and had to work a regular job (he suffered a career-ending Football injury in college)- he was said to be an equal candidate for the Green Lantern Ring, but was a bit further away than Hal Jordan when Abin Sur was critically-wounded, and so he was relegated to "back-up duty". His father was an abusive alcoholic who lavished attention on Guy's older brother Mace, who became a cop and led a juvenile delinquent Guy to going straight. When Hal learned that Guy was a back-up, he befriended the man and Guy got trained as a GL and helped from time to time. When Guy was injured saving kids from a school bus, he was replaced as back-up by John Stewart.

Guy Becomes a Mega-Douche:
-He received brain damage after further situations (like being trapped in the Phantom Zone and tortured by General Zod), which resulted in him being written out for years, and then getting his new personality at the hands of Englehart & Staton- Guy became an arrogant, agressive, childish asshole. He was recruited by an offshoot of the Guardians and started acting as if he was the most-deserving Lantern, being easily provoked into the wrong actions. This version would go on to become the iconic personality most often associated with the character, especially on the famous Giffen/DeMatteis JLI run, featuring Guy butting heads with Batman on a frequent basis, leading to a famous page in which Batman slugs Guy in the face, knocking him out with a single punch- a saddened Black Canary mourns that she missed it, while Blue Beetle is in full-blown hysterics. This "One Punch!" scene would basically stick with him for his entire career, as would his arguments with his teammates. Apparently a knock on the head turned him into a kind, agreeable gentleman, and he switched personalities often- he did at least get a small relationship with his teammate Ice, but she was soon killed against the Overmaster.

Guy Gardner- Warrior:
-Hal Jordan, who'd been away recruiting other Green Lanterns (at this point, the Corps had been greatly reduced after Sinestro was executed), finally returned to Earth and Guy laid down a challenge- the loser would have to give up his Power Ring. Hal won and Guy surrendered his ring- he later finagled his way into a team with Lobo and managed to gain the dead Sinestro's YELLOW Power Ring for a time. This led to a Guy Gardner series in the early 1990s, but DC went through a major shift as Hal goes insane, becomes Parallax, and dies, and the entire Corps is removed save for Kyle Rayner. To differentiate Guy, DC removed the yellow ring and turned the book into Guy Gardner: Warrior, using Exo-Suit powers, and refused the last GL Ring from Ganthet (this Ring ended up going to Rayner). A backstory was introduced, stating that Guy's bloodline had some alien DNA impalnted into it a millennium ago, and he used this "Vuldarian" powers to become a shapeshifting warrior with Bio-Guns being created from his body. Writer Beau Smith says this was an edict from DC to make the character more like the then-popular Mighty Morphin Power Rangers.

-This whole thing was SUPER '90s and kind of ridiculous, as guy now flew around covered in body paint and guns, and led to the creation of his bar "Warriors", eventually becoming the official hangout of many superheroes in various books (sort of the "Cheers" of the DC Universe). Guy actually seemed really unpopular when I was getting to DC comics in the late '90s- he was called by one fan "what stupid people think cool people are like". However, he maintained his own solo book for a time. When Warrior was finally cancelled, Guy went into Comics Limbo, vanishing into guest-starring roles and being thought-dead after Our Worlds At War. He got a power-upgrade, got an in-universe explanation for his personality shifts (an enemy called Dementor was responsible), then vanished again- he would return when Hal Jordan was resurrected, and regained his GL Ring after Parallax possessed him, erasing his Vuldarian DNA.

Guy Rejoins the Corps:
-When Hal Jordan is finally resurrected and the Green Lantern Corps are restored, Guy gets a Power Ring back, and gets a bit of a personality recharge. While he's still thick-headed and boorish, he's now almost charmingly-so, like the aforementioned Casey Jones. Like, now it was FUNNY and he wasn't such a butt-monkey. Hal punching Batman to the floor and Guy chuckling "Heh- ONE PUNCH. I always liked you, Hal" was a terrific moment. Guy becomes one of four acting Earthmen Lanterns, and co-stars in the second of two Green Lantern books. His relationship with a resurrected Ice is built upon, as is his relationship with his family.

-This is the Guy with whom I'm most familiar, and he's actually pretty decent. He still has the hilariously-dated bowl haircut and weird vest, but his obnoxious personality kind of became less-arrogant and more "simplistic and fun", meaning that his teammates didn't immediately call for his head. He wasn't entirely STUPID, but he was overly-blunt, aggressive (without simply acting like a violent Image hero), sometimes said the wrong thing, and more. But he got repeated instances of showing that he DID know right from wrong, he backed up his buddies come Hell or High Water, and he was a cheerful, noble hero and Boisterous Bruiser- amazingly, Guy Gardner had now become LIKEABLE.

-A later issue sees Guy transformed into a Red Lantern for a time, enraged over the temporary death of Kyle Rayner. Bizarrely, he then joins them AGAIN, acting undercover on Hal's recommendations- he usurps command from Atrocitus and actually manages to keep his rage in check while Atrocitus conspires against him. And this is apparently where things were left off (the Johns GL-verse was mostly unaffected by the continuity reboot from the "New 52" so it's largely a straight line with a handful of retcons).

Guy's Powers:
-I see Guy as more of a "Standard Elite Lantern" than the PL 13 Kyle, John or Hal, but PL 12 is still VERY powerful indeed. Guy just lacks the defenses or accuracy of the others- his aggressive style leaves him with less "Good Showings" or instances of particularly-strong Willpower.

Image

GUY GARDNER: WARRIOR
Created By:
John Broome & Gil Kane
First Appearance: Green Lantern #59 (March 1968)
Role: Boisterous Bruiser, Team Asshole
Group Affiliations: The Justice League of America, The Green Lantern Corps., The Red Lantern Corps.
PL 12 (226)
STRENGTH
3/15 STAMINA 4/15 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Athletics 4 (+7)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+9)
Expertise (Football Player) 3 (+6) -- Uses Strength
Expertise (Social Worker) 2 (+2)
Intimidation 4 (+5)
Investigation 3 (+4)
Perception 2 (+3)
Stealth 1 (+5)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Fast Grab, Fearless, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Blast), Power Attack, Precise Attack (Ranged/Cover), Ranged Attack 5, Startle, Ultimate Will Save

Powers:
"Vuldarian Bio-Weaponry"
Shapeshift 6 [48]
Enhanced Strength 12 [24]
Enhanced Stamina 11 [22]
Flight 10 (500 mph) [20]
Immunity 10 (Life Support) [10]
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) [2]
Regeneration 8 [8]
"Access to Deceased Vuldarians" Variable 2 (Flaws: Limited to Skills) [12]

Offense:
Unarmed +9 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Strength +9 (+15 Damage, DC 20)
Shapeshifted Blasts +8 (+15 Ranged Damage, DC 30)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +4 (+11 Standard Field, +16 Full Field, +4-11 Impervious), Fortitude +6, Will +10

Complications:
Power Loss (Will)- Green Lantern Rings depend upon the Will of their wielder. If Guy fails a Will Save (such as from being intimidated or mentally-screwed with), he will drop Constructs and Force Fields.
Power Loss (Out of Energy)- Power Rings must be recharged via their Lanterns occasionally, and will run out of power after extended use.
Power Loss (High Levels of Power)- Green Lanterns must pass Will Saves to bring their power effects any higher than their natural Will Save +2 (in Guy's case, 12). This includes Blasts, Move Object & Force Fields.
Responsibility (The Green Lantern Corps)
Relationship (Ice)- Guy loves Tora Olafsdotter, despite his clumsy ways of trying to get it across.
Rivalry (Batman)- ONE PUNCH!
Temper- Guy is prone to losing his temper- his Ring constantly sparks with energy, and he often reacts agressively in situations.

Total: Abilities: 50 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 14 / Powers: 136 / Defenses: 15 (226)

-Guy Guardner becomes infused with Vuldarian DNA and is now a shapeshifting bad-ass, hitting PL 12 but as a Brawling Flying Blaster of sorts. Guy Gardner: Warrior actually lasted for 44 issues in the mid-1990s, which is actually kind of impressive.
Thorpocalypse
Posts: 3239
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: The To-Do List

Post by Thorpocalypse »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:02 am Okay, so here's a list of the builds I'll be doing:

GREEN LANTERNS: A whole hell of a lot of builds of guys with the same powers.

Hal, Kyle, Guy, John, Simon & Jessica (the Earth GLs)
Kilowog
Salaak
Tomar-Re & Tomar-Tu
Ch'p
Katma Tui
Arisia
Bzzd
Galius Zed
Hannu
Mogo
Sodam Yat
Charlie Vicker
The Green Man
Soranik Natu
G'nort
Boodikka
Baseline GLs (Elite, Moderate & Rookie)
Wait...NO B'OX?!?!?!? :shock:
Me fail English? That's unpossible. - Ralph Wiggum
Jabroniville
Posts: 24690
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: The To-Do List

Post by Jabroniville »

Thorpocalypse wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:23 am
Jabroniville wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:02 am Okay, so here's a list of the builds I'll be doing:

GREEN LANTERNS: A whole hell of a lot of builds of guys with the same powers.

Hal, Kyle, Guy, John, Simon & Jessica (the Earth GLs)
Kilowog
Salaak
Tomar-Re & Tomar-Tu
Ch'p
Katma Tui
Arisia
Bzzd
Galius Zed
Hannu
Mogo
Sodam Yat
Charlie Vicker
The Green Man
Soranik Natu
G'nort
Boodikka
Baseline GLs (Elite, Moderate & Rookie)
Wait...NO B'OX?!?!?!? :shock:
“Thorpocalypse of Earth… you have great poopiness in your heart. Welcome to the Brown Lantern Corps!”

He can be in the template for all the Corps and you’ll like it :P
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