Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

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Jabroniville
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Re: Batman (Overview)

Post by Jabroniville »

Skavenger wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:16 pm For my money, Benjamin J Grimm is Marvel's closest analogue to Batman. He was the face of Marvel Two-In-One, he's a classic link from the old-timey Marvel monster stories to the more modern superhero epics, he's been a pilot, a space adventurer, a wrestler, an introspective poet, a tragic romantic lead, a successful romantic lead, and is just as comfortable punching aliens, monsters, and Dr. Doom as he is playing poker with whatever ragtag group of characters you can scrounge up. Just like with Batman, you have to put genuine work into screwing up Ben Grimm.
Yeah, that's not a bad fit, actually. When Ben joined the Guardians of the Galaxy in the Bendis run, it was weird how well he fit. He's also a good "Stranger in a Strange Land" character (his post-Secret Wars solo book) and oddly the second-best Team-Up Guy in Marvel next to Spidey himself, since he's powerful without being overwhelming, and down to earth enough to deal with either the humble heroes of the arrogant ones.
Batman really does have the best rogue's gallery there is, nobody else comes close. Spider-Man's is good, but for every decent Goblin or Venom or Kingpin, you have someone like the Kangaroo, Typeface, or Big Wheel.
HOO BOY are you about to be introduced to some guys who could out-lame even these losers, lol.
While those characters could work, part of the problem is that it's all in New York City, the same city the Avengers, Daredevil, the Fantastic Four, and god knows how many other superheroes operate out of. You genuinely expect me to think someone would go "I got it, if I drive this giant wheel around, nobody will be able to stop me! Not even Thor, Captain Marvel, Invisible Woman, The Human Torch, Luke Cage, or The Sentry if he happens to be remembered this week!"

If Spider-Man lived in a huge city by himself, then it might work, but just as Batman's villains wouldn't really work in Metropolis or Central City ("Oh, Two-Face just tried to rob the Central City ba- oh, Flash got him. Nevermind."), Spider-Man's villains don't really work in New York if you expect me to take them seriously.
I'll admit I never thought it was a negative that any of Spidey's villains lived in NYC because, well, EVERYONE does at Marvel. "Well why don't you just move?" is one of those things you just never ask at Marvel or DC (like, if you hate the Flash, why not move to Hub City or a real-world town?)- it breaks the cohesion of the universe. They're all in NYC because it's Marvel, it's set in NYC, and this way all the heroes and villains can hang out together. I never question it, haha.
It's funny, because a lot of the Bat-mythos didn't show up on Day One. His origin story (dead parents, bat crashing through window, the vow) appeared six months after his first appearance in Detective Comics #33, and...I'd say maybe around two years after his original appearance, the Batman we were initially introduced to was nowhere to be seen. It's in Batman #4 in 1940 that Batman reminds Robin "we don't kill." A massive departure from the guy who let a guy fall into acid in one story and said "a fitting end for his kind!"
Yeah, I found this interesting, but is sort of inevitable, especially with Golden Age comics, which often just had heroes show up like they were always there, doing an action episode first, and only later (if the character takes off) explaining their secret origin.
Orbiter
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Re: Batman (Overview)

Post by Orbiter »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 10:42 pm
-The Batman as he appeared in The Animated Series is for my money the greatest version ever seen: Grim, but not hopeless. Determined, but not obsessed to the point of hating everyone. Skilled, but not the uber-God of war that's undefeatable. One of my favourite Batman-defining moments was the time he came CRASHING through some old lady's window, coming to his senses, then turning back to smirk at her before he left- showing you the Bat-humour. Plus, he actually used his DETECTIVE SKILLS. He didn't just punch stuff into a computer and read the results all the time (though there was a bit of that); he searched for clues, he dusted for prints, and he dug up dirt on people like no other hero has ever done.
He premiered in DETECTIVE Comics. My favorite of his foes knows his secret ID, but instead of "Batman" or "Bruce" or "Mr. Wayne", Ra's al Ghul calls him THE DETECTIVE. And since 1985 or so, outside of the animated series, we've been lucky if we see him follow down a clue more than once or twice in a year. That's why I hate Modern Batman. He's just a spoiled brat who hasn't finished the temper tantrum he started when he was eight. I remember when "The Dark Knight" was called "The Darknight Detective". So completely with you on that one, Jab.
Jabroniville
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Batman (Silver Age)

Post by Jabroniville »

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BATMAN (Bruce Wayne)- Silver/Bronze Age
Created By:
Bob Kane & Bill Finger
First Appearance: Detective Comics #27 (May 1939)
Role: The Ultimate Non-Powered Hero, The Detective, Supreme Skillmonkey
Group Affiliations: The Justice League of America, The Outsiders
PL 10 (254)
STRENGTH
4 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 6
FIGHTING 13 DEXTERITY 8
INTELLIGENCE 5 AWARENESS 6 PRESENCE 5

Skills:
Acrobatics 8 (+14)
Athletics 8 (+11)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 3 (+16)
Deception 10 (+15)
Expertise (Streetwise) 10 (+15)
Expertise (History) 3 (+8)
Expertise (Science) 6 (+11)
Expertise (Business) 6 (+11)
Insight 9 (+15)
Intimidation 8 (+13)
Investigation 11 (+17)
Perception 7 (+13)
Persuasion 5 (+10)
Ranged Combat (Batarangs) 3 (+15)
Stealth 10 (+16)
Technology 5 (+11)
Treatment 2 (+8)
Vehicles 10 (+14)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Agile Feint, Assessment, Benefit 5 (Billionaire), Benefit 1 (Alternate ID- Matches Malone), Chokehold, Defensive Attack, Diehard, Equipment 24 (Costume +1, Batmobile, Batplane, Utility Belt), Evasion, Fast Grab, Grab Finesse, Great Endurance, Hide in Plain Sight, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Unarmed) 2, Improved Critical (Batarangs), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Smash, Improved Trip, Inventor, Jack-of-All-Trades, Languages 2 (Almost Any Needed), Luck, Precise Attack 2 (Ranged/Cover, Close/Concealment), Prone Fighting, Quick Draw, Ranged Attack 4, Skill Mastery (Investigation), Takedown 2, Tracking 2, Ultimate Investigation Skill, Ultimate Deception, Uncanny Dodge, Well-Informed

Equipment:
"Batplane" (Gargantuan, ST 11, Flight 7- 240 mph, Defense -2, Toughness 11, Features- Navigation, Remote Control, Missiles- Blast 10- Burst- Extended Range 2) (61) -- (62)
  • AE: "Batmobile" (Huge, ST 8, Speed 6- 120 mph, Defense -2, Toughness 10, Features- Alarm, Caltrops, Oil Slick, Remote Control, Computer) (16)
"Utility Belt"
Camera, CommLink, Audio Recorder, Handcuffs, Binoculars, Mini-Tracer, Night Vision Goggles, Flashlight, Gas Mask, Multi-Tool, Rebreather, Cutting Torch (12)
"Grapple Gun" Movement 1 (Swinging) (2)

"Choking Gas" Affliction 6 (Fort; Dazed & Vulnerable/Defenseless & Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Cloud +2, Ranged, Extra Condition) (Diminished Range -1) (29) -- (32)
  • AE: "Batarangs" Blast 3 (Feats: Homing, Ricochet) (Extras: Multiattack) (Diminished Range -1) (10)
  • AE: "Explosives" Damage 8 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (Feats: Triggered- Time) (17)
  • AE: "Smoke Pellets" Concealment (Visuals) 2 (Extras: Attack, Area- 30ft. Cloud +2) (10)
"The Batcave"
(Large, Toughness 10, Communications, Computer, Concealed, Dock, Garage, Gym, Hangar, Library, Living Space, Workshop) (16)
-- (120 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +16 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Batarangs +15 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Explosives +8 Area (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Choking Gas +6 Area (+6 Affliction, DC 16)
Initiative +10

Defenses:
Dodge +15 (DC 25), Parry +15 (DC 25), Toughness +4 (+5 Costume), Fortitude +6, Will +13

Complications:
Motivation (Justice, Revenge)- Bruce Wayne's parents were murdered before his eyes as a young child. He has never stopped trying to rid Gotham City of the evil that took their lives. He is devoted to bringing justice back to Gotham, but vengeance still defines much of his life.
Responsibility (Human Life)- Only Superman values human life as much as Batman does- having felt the pain of losing someone, he endeavors to not bestow the same pain upon others.
Responsibility (Gotham City)- Batman considers himself Gotham's protectors.
Responsibility (Compassion)- Though often quiet and vengeful, Batman is a creature of compassion. He feels pity for some of his enemies (Man-Bat, Mr. Freeze, Baby Doll), and feels sympathy for the victims of crime.
Responsibility (The Memory of Thomas & Martha Wayne, Parents)- Bruce occasionally seems himself in the shadow of his wealthy, honourable parents.
Responsibility (Jim Gordon, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, Friends)- Despite being a loner much of the time, Bruce is highly-protective of those close to him. Attacks on their life will be taken very seriously, and if harm came to one of them, Bruce would be beside himself with grief.
Reputation (Asshole)- Batman became darker and darker over time, at at points goes from "unfriendly and uninterested" to "giant raging asshole". Even his closest friends have difficulty putting up with his obsessive personality and rude behavior for long, and he is frequently estranged from various people.
Rivalry (Superman)- The two have known each other for years, and represent two of the most-important heroes on Earth. However, they have two different viewpoints on justice, and how to behave around others- rarely seeing eye to eye. But few are more-reliable when backing the other up- they trust each other implicitly.
Enemy (The Joker, The Penguin, etc.)- Batman has amassed numerous enemies, including the entire population of Arkham Asylum, and a few notable public figures.
Reputation (Lawless Vigilante)- What Batman does is essentially an illegal act, with Commissioner Gordon "looking the other way". Other public figures are less forgiving, and he may find himself hunted. Police detective Harvey Bullock specifically wants him brought down.

Total: Abilities: 100 / Skills: 124--62 / Advantages: 72 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 20 (254)

-The Batman of the Silver & Bronze Ages is a more kindly figure than he would be later, and wavers between "Silly Adventures" and "Serious Life-Or-Death Struggles", but is a very well-rounded, VERY expensive character. Overall, he's a PL 10 hero who spends more than almost any other mainstream guy, mostly owing to his unrealistically-high Abilities, broad skill-set, and huge amount of Advantages. And this is PRE-"Batgod", mind you!
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Re: Batman (Overview)

Post by Skavenger »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:11 am
Skavenger wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:16 pm Batman really does have the best rogue's gallery there is, nobody else comes close. Spider-Man's is good, but for every decent Goblin or Venom or Kingpin, you have someone like the Kangaroo, Typeface, or Big Wheel.
HOO BOY are you about to be introduced to some guys who could out-lame even these losers, lol.
Oh, Batman has his losers, don't get me wrong. But at least in Batman's case you can argue that it's Gotham that twists these people into thinking they can take on an "urban legend" or "just a freak in a cape." They're more a product of the environment than lame Marvel villains who live in, y'know, New York City. You've got your generic loser villains like Magpie, Mr. ZZZ, or the like, but it takes something as twisted as Gotham City to create Mr. Camera, Doodlebug, or Penny Plunderer.
Arcae
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Re: Batman (Overview)

Post by Arcae »

Skavenger wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:53 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 5:11 am
Skavenger wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:16 pm Batman really does have the best rogue's gallery there is, nobody else comes close. Spider-Man's is good, but for every decent Goblin or Venom or Kingpin, you have someone like the Kangaroo, Typeface, or Big Wheel.
HOO BOY are you about to be introduced to some guys who could out-lame even these losers, lol.
Oh, Batman has his losers, don't get me wrong. But at least in Batman's case you can argue that it's Gotham that twists these people into thinking they can take on an "urban legend" or "just a freak in a cape." They're more a product of the environment than lame Marvel villains who live in, y'know, New York City. You've got your generic loser villains like Magpie, Mr. ZZZ, or the like, but it takes something as twisted as Gotham City to create Mr. Camera, Doodlebug, or Penny Plunderer.
I mean, that doesn't really fly in the sixties where most of those losers were introduced.
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Jack of Spades
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Re: Batman (Overview)

Post by Jack of Spades »

Orbiter wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:04 pm He premiered in DETECTIVE Comics. My favorite of his foes knows his secret ID, but instead of "Batman" or "Bruce" or "Mr. Wayne", Ra's al Ghul calls him THE DETECTIVE. And since 1985 or so, outside of the animated series, we've been lucky if we see him follow down a clue more than once or twice in a year. That's why I hate Modern Batman. He's just a spoiled brat who hasn't finished the temper tantrum he started when he was eight. I remember when "The Dark Knight" was called "The Darknight Detective". So completely with you on that one, Jab.
Preach it, brother.
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Shock
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Rastan! Batman Builds! Earth-Two Robin & Huntress!)

Post by Shock »

I think the thing with Batman's detective work is that now it happens off-panel and it's just sort of assumed that he knows everything. Which made the Court of Owls thing more ridiculous because they had been operating in Gotham for over 100 years and Batman had no idea. Nice job, Detective.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Rastan! Batman Builds! Earth-Two Robin & Huntress!)

Post by Ken »

Shock wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:06 pm I think the thing with Batman's detective work is that now it happens off-panel and it's just sort of assumed that he knows everything. Which made the Court of Owls thing more ridiculous because they had been operating in Gotham for over 100 years and Batman had no idea. Nice job, Detective.
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Jack of Spades
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Rastan! Batman Builds! Earth-Two Robin & Huntress!)

Post by Jack of Spades »

Shock wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:06 pm I think the thing with Batman's detective work is that now it happens off-panel and it's just sort of assumed that he knows everything. Which made the Court of Owls thing more ridiculous because they had been operating in Gotham for over 100 years and Batman had no idea. Nice job, Detective.
Which violates the basic contract with the reader of a mystery story. The reader should have all the clues the detective does, and the same chance to put them together. Batman's detective skills are now just an informed ability instead of something worthy of being the very title of the magazine.
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Shock
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Rastan! Batman Builds! Earth-Two Robin & Huntress!)

Post by Shock »

Jack of Spades wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:49 pm
Shock wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:06 pm I think the thing with Batman's detective work is that now it happens off-panel and it's just sort of assumed that he knows everything. Which made the Court of Owls thing more ridiculous because they had been operating in Gotham for over 100 years and Batman had no idea. Nice job, Detective.
Which violates the basic contract with the reader of a mystery story. The reader should have all the clues the detective does, and the same chance to put them together. Batman's detective skills are now just an informed ability instead of something worthy of being the very title of the magazine.
I agree completely. I would love to see the detective work actually happen. or I would if the Batman book had been any good for the last few years
Jabroniville
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Batman (Modern)

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

BATMAN (Bruce Wayne)- Modern Age
Created By:
Bob Kane & Bill Finger
First Appearance: Detective Comics #27 (May 1939)
Role: The Ultimate Non-Powered Hero, The Detective, Supreme Skillmonkey
Group Affiliations: The Justice League of America, The Outsiders
PL 11 (273)
STRENGTH
4 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 6
FIGHTING 14 DEXTERITY 8
INTELLIGENCE 6 AWARENESS 6 PRESENCE 5

Skills:
Acrobatics 8 (+14)
Athletics 8 (+11)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 3 (+17)
Deception 11 (+16)
Expertise (Streetwise) 9 (+15)
Expertise (History) 2 (+8)
Expertise (Science) 7 (+13)
Expertise (Business) 5 (+11)
Insight 9 (+15)
Intimidation 10 (+15)
Investigation 12 (+18)
Perception 9 (+15)
Persuasion 5 (+10)
Ranged Combat (Batarangs) 3 (+15)
Stealth 10 (+16)
Technology 9 (+15)
Treatment 2 (+8)
Vehicles 10 (+14)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Agile Feint, Assessment, Beginner's Luck, Benefit 5 (Billionaire), Benefit 1 (Alternate ID- Matches Malone), Chokehold, Daze (Intimidation), Defensive Attack, Diehard, Equipment 24 (Costume +1, Batmobile, Batplane, Utility Belt), Evasion, Extraordinary Effort, Fast Grab, Grab Finesse, Great Endurance, Hide in Plain Sight, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Unarmed) 3, Improved Critical (Batarangs), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Smash, Improved Trip, Inventor, Jack-of-All-Trades, Languages 2 (Almost Any Needed), Last Stand (Ignore Damage for 1 Round With HP Spent), Luck, Power Attack, Precise Attack 2 (Ranged/Cover, Close/Concealment), Prone Fighting, Quick Draw, Ranged Attack 4, Skill Mastery (Investigation), Startle, Takedown 2, Tracking 2, Ultimate Investigation Skill, Ultimate Intimidation, Ultimate Deception, Uncanny Dodge, Well-Informed

Equipment:
"Batplane" (Gargantuan, ST 11, Flight 7- 240 mph, Defense -2, Toughness 11, Features- Navigation, Remote Control, Missiles- Blast 10- Burst- Extended Range 2) (61) -- (62)
  • AE: "Batmobile" (Huge, ST 8, Speed 6- 120 mph, Defense -2, Toughness 10, Features- Alarm, Caltrops, Oil Slick, Remote Control, Computer) (16)
"Utility Belt"
Camera, CommLink, Audio Recorder, Handcuffs, Binoculars, Mini-Tracer, Night Vision Goggles, Flashlight, Gas Mask, Multi-Tool, Rebreather, Cutting Torch (12)
"Grapple Gun" Movement 1 (Swinging) (2)

"Choking Gas" Affliction 6 (Fort; Dazed & Vulnerable/Defenseless & Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Cloud +2, Ranged, Extra Condition) (Diminished Range -1) (29) -- (32)
  • AE: "Batarangs" Blast 3 (Feats: Homing, Ricochet) (Extras: Multiattack) (Diminished Range -1) (10)
  • AE: "Explosives" Damage 8 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (Feats: Triggered- Time) (17)
  • AE: "Smoke Pellets" Concealment (Visuals) 2 (Extras: Attack, Area- 30ft. Cloud +2) (10)
"The Batcave"
(Large, Toughness 10, Communications, Computer, Concealed, Dock, Garage, Gym, Hangar, Library, Living Space, Workshop) (16)
-- (120 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +17 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Batarangs +15 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Explosives +8 Area (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Choking Gas +6 Area (+6 Affliction, DC 16)
Initiative +10

Defenses:
Dodge +16 (DC 26), Parry +16 (DC 26), Toughness +5 (+6 Costume), Fortitude +7, Will +13

Complications:
Motivation (Justice, Revenge)- Bruce Wayne's parents were murdered before his eyes as a young child. He has never stopped trying to rid Gotham City of the evil that took their lives. He is devoted to bringing justice back to Gotham, but vengeance still defines much of his life.
Responsibility (Human Life)- Only Superman values human life as much as Batman does- having felt the pain of losing someone, he endeavors to not bestow the same pain upon others.
Responsibility (Gotham City)- Batman considers himself Gotham's protectors.
Responsibility (Compassion)- Though often quiet and vengeful, Batman is a creature of compassion. He feels pity for some of his enemies (Man-Bat, Mr. Freeze, Baby Doll), and feels sympathy for the victims of crime.
Responsibility (The Memory of Thomas & Martha Wayne, Parents)- Bruce occasionally seems himself in the shadow of his wealthy, honourable parents.
Responsibility (Jim Gordon, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, Friends)- Despite being a loner much of the time, Bruce is highly-protective of those close to him. Attacks on their life will be taken very seriously, and if harm came to one of them, Bruce would be beside himself with grief.
Reputation (Asshole)- Batman became darker and darker over time, at at points goes from "unfriendly and uninterested" to "giant raging asshole". Even his closest friends have difficulty putting up with his obsessive personality and rude behavior for long, and he is frequently estranged from various people.
Rivalry (Superman)- The two have known each other for years, and represent two of the most-important heroes on Earth. However, they have two different viewpoints on justice, and how to behave around others- rarely seeing eye to eye. But few are more-reliable when backing the other up- they trust each other implicitly.
Enemy (The Joker, The Penguin, etc.)- Batman has amassed numerous enemies, including the entire population of Arkham Asylum, and a few notable public figures.
Reputation (Lawless Vigilante)- What Batman does is essentially an illegal act, with Commissioner Gordon "looking the other way". Other public figures are less forgiving, and he may find himself hunted. Police detective Harvey Bullock specifically wants him brought down.

Total: Abilities: 106 / Skills: 132--66 / Advantages: 80 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 21 (273)

-This is my build of the modern-day Batman- anything post-Dark Knight Returns more or less fits here- a PL 11, ultra-expensive bad-ass. One of the biggest issues in the DC Adventures builds, in my opinion, was the status of Batman at PL 12. It almost made sense on some level that the whole Justice League had to be at high levels, but this created a critical problem. A Batman at PL 12 needs to be challenged by foes on his level... turning regular-old human guys like The Penguin and Two-Face into GIANT elites just to match him! In fact, this created a huge issue across the whole series of official builds, necessitating artificially-inflated PLs for a massive chunk of the Bat-Rouges.

-I found it to be way over-the-top an unnecessary- Batman is elite not because of his massive Power Level, but because of his insanely-skilled nature. The other JLA members spend all their points on Powers and awesome stuff- Batman's player is just the smartest guy at the table, and THINKS his way through everything. And my Batman is +17/+4, making him a very-good PL 10.5, which I think is enough- it puts him on a level above Daredevil & Shang-Chi (or Captain America without his Shield).

-Batman is still an insane Skillmonkey, and his Advantages render him able to do just about anything. Science is always unrealistically-easy to learn in the comic book world (just a single panel of looking at a couple beakers full of chemicals is enough for your Master's Degree), and so Bats is a super-uber-genius. His Investigation Skill is simply the highest in the world, and his Intimidation is incredible as well. Though if you think about it, the only people he ever really successfully intimidates are MOOKS, so it needn't be so high- an Intimidation level the size of DCA's would make him able to terrify ANY enemy he'd ever face, which is just not the way things work in the comics at all- all of his foes seem capable of fighting past their fear and attacking him.
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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Earth-Two Robin & Huntress! Modern Batman!)

Post by Ares »

I think overall, I prefer the Bronze Age Batman in terms of presentation. He was someone who was highly capable, could be intimidating when he wanted to be, and he dealt with serious threats . . . but he wasn't an asshole to his friends. He easily acknowledged how much his friendships with Dick, Alfred and Clark meant to him, and he was never so far up his own butt that his friends couldn't help him extract said head with a simple conversation. He was someone who was comfortable being Bruce Wayne and having Bruce Wayne be an actual human being, rather than just an act he played so that no one would suspect him of being Batman.

It was just nice to read books back in those days and have a Batman that normal people could speak to without fear, while criminals would practically wet their pants anytime they saw him. Batman was scary . . . to criminals. To everyone else, he was no less a superhero than Superman or Wonder Woman.

In a way, it feels like Batman: TAS was based more off of the Bronze Age Batman than the more recent comics of the time, albeit they gave Batman a bit more of an edge that only got edgier over time. But still, the Bronze Age Batman was not someone obsessed with one-upping everyone or intimidating his fellow Justice Leaguers. He was someone who could casually call those people his friends and had no problem with them knowing his secret identity.

I've said in the past that I consider Batman equal parts a detective, a ninja and a gadgeteer, and how a strength of Batman stories that depending on which aspect you want to focus on, you can get very different stories. I will amend that to say that while his ninja skills and gadgets are important, his detective skills need to take precedent over the other two. Batman is the guy who figures stuff out. He looks into things, unravels the mystery of the latest villain scheme, and then how he takes them down will depend if we're going more ninja or gadgeteer.

Regarding his villains, a big part of why they don't need a high PL is that most of the time, the threats they pose aren't physical in nature. At least not in the sense that they'd last very long in a straight up fist fight. With folks like the Joker, Penguin and the Riddler, it's all about figuring out the scheme and, at best, having to deal with whatever gadgets or gimmicks they've got. You either need people with blatant superpowers or super technology like Mr. Freeze, Killer Croc or Poison Ivy, or you need combat masters like Ra's Al Ghul or Lady Shiva. Even with Catwoman, the challenge is more about the chase than the fight.

I'm reminded of when some other heroes appeared in Central City and were taking on the Flash's Rogue's Gallery, and the Rogues actually managed to escape because they were used to fighting someone who moved so fast and through teamwork. To me, a lot of the Gotham Villains would be the same way, where they're used to dealing with a master detective who can track them down, a master of stealth who can be practically invisible, etc. So when a normal superhero goes after them, the Gotham villains see them coming a mile away and have plenty of time to escape, along with having all these tricks and death traps to make pursuit more difficult.

It kind of reminds me of the old Golden Age Green Lantern villain "The Gambler". The guy was just a clever master of disguise with a lot of useful skills and balls. He wouldn't last 5 seconds in a fight with Alan Scott. But the Gambler was a challenge because fighting him wasn't the problem, it was finding him and capturing him when he was so slippery and clever. Defeating the Gambler was more like a puzzle than a fight. Most of Batman's villains are the same way.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Earth-Two Robin & Huntress! Modern Batman!)

Post by Grenzer »

Amazing to see the power-inflation of Batman as you move from one era to the next. It fits in line with what we see in many of the modern comics and animations: A supposedly 'normal' if well-trained and equipped man bulldozing over metahumans with significant powers that by all means should not be conquerable by anyone less than a fellow metahuman. It was one thing when Bruce outsmarted opponents like Killer Croc or Clayface and exploited their weaknesses, as it was made clear he could never beat them in a straight out fight. These days it seems Batman just pulls out some super gadget that knocks out the villain in one or two moves or hits them harder than Iron Fist ever could.

It really plays into the psychology of modern comic writers: They despise the idea of a being like Superman having innately superior abilities to that of humans and yet unironically using his powers for good. In turn Batman becomes the focus for all of their power-geek fantasies, making him come off as far more superhuman than his empowered colleagues despite being touted as more relatable because he is the 'normal', 'grounded' one. Frank Miller seems to be the one who got this ball running, but you would think after thirty-five years someone would do a corrective. The Timm-Dini animated series did a great job of showing a balanced Batman who was a formidable combatant but hardly invincible, but even they started drifting into this problem during the Justice League era, and no one else in the industry took a lesson from it in that regard.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Earth-Two Robin & Huntress! Modern Batman!)

Post by Jack of Spades »

One of the problems I have with just about everyone's writeup of Batman is STR 4. Batman is in peak physical condition, but he runs into guys who are bigger and stronger than he is–Ubu comes to mind, the KGBeast, or un-Venomed Bane. Giving Batman STR 4 means you have to make those guys superhuman, whereas if you put him at a more sane STR 3, they can be "max human." Of course, that would mean Batman's not the best at something, so some fanboys would squawk.

I agree with your Intimidation score, Jab. Batman isn't the scariest guy in the DCU; he's just the hero most likely to use intimidation as his primary mode of interaction. It's one thing that makes him such a dick; he even tries to use it on the JLA and the Batfamily, with being all grim and grumbly.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Earth-Two Robin & Huntress! Modern Batman!)

Post by Ares »

Regarding how flexible Batman is as a character, I don't think anything demonstrated that notion better than the fact that we got three good Batman cartoons back to back, each with a slightly different take on the Batman character and mythos, and all three of them were very good in different ways.

Batman: TAS is a classic with some episodes that are full on ART, with a unique aesthetic that is equal parts 30's pulp fun and modern technology (the kind of setting I tend to envision for Captain Marvel). There you see a Batman who is very much a grim creature of the night, but he more closely resembles the Bronze Age Batman than the grim-dark Dark Knight Returns version (which I feel is more and more overrated the older I get). This is a Batman who honestly cares about his friends and allies, who has a sense of humor, who can show real emotions and pain, etc. The amazing voice acting just made things better. Sadly, the series suffered a case of seasonal rot, with the Post-Superman:TAS Batman stuff being of a noticeably lesser quality in terms of design and storytelling, with much fewer gems. And as the Timm-verse continued without Paul Dini's influence, Bruce became more and more like the more modern Batman: distant, cold, concerned with one-upping his teammates and allies, and winding up as this broken, old man.

It really can't be overstated how much SOUL Kevin Conroy brought to both Bruce and Batman. He made you feel what Bruce was going through and could easily make you believe that Bruce and Batman were different people based off of their voice. There was one episode where Bruce was talking to an old friend of his dad's and, in this beautiful moment Bruce just asks the other man to "Tell me about my father". I also liked that when talking to Alfred, Bruce tended to talk in his own voice rather than the voice he uses as Batman, except when he's actually outside of the cave. Little audio hints about how much Bruce trusted Alfred where he could just be himself.

The Batman came out during the same time as Justice League and Justice League Unlimited (creating the famous Bat Embargo), and was heavily inspired by the Nolan-films. This was a Batman only into his second year of crime fighting. We saw him actually grow over time, establish his connection with the Gotham City PD, gain the trust of the city, and become a Justice League-class hero. I also liked that this Batman tended to do a lot of actual detective work as well, even if the animation lent itself to some amazing fight choreography.

The series tends to get looked down on due to some design choices with some villains, the whole Bat Embargo and for coming out after Batman: TAS, but honestly? I love the show. In some respects, I actually like it more than Batman: TAS. Even if the voice acting isn't as good, this show probably has the most human Bruce Wayne, someone you can actually like and relate to, possibly even more than B:TAS.

Batman: The Brave and the Bold was the last of these three, and just embraced Silver Age fun. It was basically the Adam West Batman with a focus on team-ups, though Batman was usually the straight man in all of said team ups. Still, this showed how Batman can work as just a standard superhero and not a "creature of the night". It was just a fun, light-hearted show where Batman could refer to his fists as "the Hammers of Justice" and not feel weird. And heck, they even specifically called out how this Batman being more fun focused was no less true to the character than the grim avenger crying out for mommy and daddy. With said episode being written by written by Paul Dini himself.

Three different Batman shows presenting Batman in three different ways, yet none of them felt "wrong" or "bad".
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