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Jabroniville
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Poison Ivy

Post by Jabroniville »

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Wow, who would have ever guessed this character would prove popular to fanartists? PS I love how she's an absolute nobody

POISON IVY (Pamela Isley, formerly Dr. Lillian Rose)
Created By:
Robert Kanigher & Sheldon Moldoff
First Appearance: Batman #181 (June 1966)
Role: Femme Fatale, Evil Environmentalist
Mental Problems: Chlorophile, Misanthropy
PL 10 (200)
STRENGTH
1/5 STAMINA 3/6 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 12 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 5

Skills:
Acrobatics 5 (+10)
Athletics 6 (+7)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+11)
Deception 3 (+8, +13 Attractive)
Expertise (Botany) 11 (+15)
Insight 4 (+7)
Investigation 3 (+6)
Perception 3 (+6)
Persuasion 3 (+8, +13 Attractive)
Stealth 3 (+8)

Advantages:
Attractive 2, Daze (Persuasion), Diehard, Fascination (Persuasion), Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Crossbow), Improved Defense, Ranged Attack 6, Ultimate Botany Skill

Powers:
"One With The Green"
"Enhanced Physicality"
Enhanced Strength 4 [8]
Enhanced Stamina 3 [6]
Regeneration 8 (Flaws: Source- Water) [9]
Immunity 1 (Poison) [1]

"Mind-Controlling Pheromones" Mind Control 9 (Extras: Area- Scent Perception, Progressive +2) (Flaws: Touch Range -2) (45) -- [53]
  • AE: "Poison Kiss" Weaken Stamina 12 (Extras: Progressive +2) (Inaccurate -2) (34)
  • AE: "Vine Snare" Snare 9 (Feats: Reversible) (28)
  • AE: "Storm of Vines" Snare 8 (Feats: Reversible) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Shapeable) (33)
  • AE: "Vine Blast" Blast 8 (Extras: Multiattack) (24)
  • AE: "Tell Your Ficus And I'll Know" Communication (Telepathy) 4 (Flaws: Limited to Plants) (12)
  • AE: "Grow Plants" Growth 10 (Flaws: Affects Others Only +0, Limited to Plants) (10)
  • AE: "Plants Move Stuff" Move Object 7 (14)
  • AE: "Vines Break Things Down" Weaken Toughness 8 (Extras: Affects Objects, Ranged) (24)
Offense:
Unarmed +12 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Plant Power +12 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Poison Kiss +8 (+12 Weaken, DC 22)
Vine Blast +10 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Storm of Vines +8 Area (+8 Ranged Affliction, DC 18)
Vine Snare +10 (+9 Ranged Affliction, DC 19)
Weaken Toughness +10 (+8 Ranged Weaken, DC 18)
Initiative +5

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (DC 21), Parry +12 (DC 22), Toughness +3, Fortitude +5 (+8), Will +8

Complications:
Obsession (Plants)- Ivy loves plants far more than people- anyone who harms plants, forests, etc., will do so at their peril.
Relationship (Batman)- In many stories, Ivy is obsessed with Batman, adoring him and wishing to start a relationship (or just seduce him). Other times she wants him dead.
Relationship (Harley Quinn)- They are merely good friends in continuity until "DC Rebirth", but appeared quite devoted to each other, despite polar opposite personalities (Harley is bouncy and insane, Ivy is emotionless and ruthless).
Power Loss (Vines)- Ivy requires plant matter close by to use any of her powers- if she is cut off from them, she is far less dangerous, and cannot use any Vine-based powers.

Total: Abilities: 74 / Skills: 42--21 / Advantages: 15 / Powers: 77 / Defenses: 13 (200)

Poison Ivy- From Vamp To Ice Queen:
-Poison Ivy could've been politely described as a silly D-league Bat-villain with no future, until the Timmverse crew saved her. I'd certainly never heard of her until Batman: The Animated Series came out, even though she'd been around for 25 years by that point. She was an absolute nobody going nowhere and then BOOM- one great debut episode and character design later and she'd been a high-tier character ever since. She was based visually off of Bettie Page, and story-wise off of the short story Rappaccini's Daughter, about a maiden who tends a garden of poisonous plants- she becomes immune to the poisons herself, but is now poisonous to others. The main issue with Ivy is that her comics personality tends to vary from writer to writer so badly that there is no "set" Ivy, and so her behavior is extremely incongruous- in nearly every comic I own, she's this quasi-mystic, aloof figure with a lofty goal of protecting plants and orphans, but this doesn't jibe with her close friendship with Harley Quinn. Nor her backstory as this Femme Fatale with a poisonous kiss (which inspired the Batman: TAS version).

-Pre-Crisis, Poison Ivy is botanist Dr. Lillian Rose, who is persuaded to assist a crook in the theft of some Egyptian artifacts containing ancient herbs. Fearing she would implicate him, the man poisons her with the herbs, but she survives, develping an immunity to all natural toxins and diseases. He appearances are quite sparse- she debuts in 1966, then appears in a few 1977 comics acting as part of the Bat-Rogues and getting one solo-villain appearance. She shows up every couple of years in the '80s as well, which is better than MOST '60s villains, but it's still not much of a thing.

Post-Crisis Ivy:
-Post-Crisis, Poison Ivy is reimagined as Dr. Pamela Lillian Isley, also a botanist, but a shy girl raised by distant, wealthy parents. The wallflower is easily seduced by her professor, Dr. Jason Woodrue, who injects her with poisons and toxins as an experiment. She survives, but only barely- the terrifying experience driving her insane. Abandoned by Woodrue, she suffers crazed mood swings and becomes a super-villain, killing her new boyfriend. She holds Gotham hostage but is beaten by Batman in his first year as a superhero, growing obsessed with him for being one of the few people whom she cannot control. Over the years, she develops plant-like superpowers- though Batman: TAS and older stories treated her as a Toxin-Immune person who was more of a schemer who sometimes created giant death-plants. An obvious Femme Fatale, she's so Fatale-y that her literal kiss is venom. Into the '90s, she maintains a crush on Batman, suggesting that he loves her as well- in essence, another "Catwoman" kind of a thing, but here Batman is more resistant.

-Eventually, she develops a "Psycho-Environmentalist" personality, deciding to defend the environment from encroachment. Her desire is to get money to find a location where she can be alone with her plants- she does so for a time, but it's soon firebombed by an American corporation that was doing weapons-testing- enraged, she takes revenge in Gotham and decides mournfully that she can never leave Gotham until the world is safe for plants. Woodrue (now the plant-like Floronic Man) finds her again, and makes her part of his scheme to create high-grade marijuana to control the world's economic future- Batman defeats him and Ivy escapes with the money. Batman: The Long Halloween keeps the "Ivy as Vamp" persona, using her to control Bruce Wayne for weeks until Selina Kyle (his girlfriend) finds out and frees him. "Thank you" Batman says to her. "For what?" "Bruce Wayne is... a friend".

Harley Meets Ivy:
-This whole "Ivy as Savior" thing continues as she "adopts" Gotham's various orphans during No Man's Land, caring for them despite her misanthropy. When Basil "Clayface" Karlo blackmails her into helping him, he imprisons her and her orphans beneath the Earth, weakening her- when Batman frees her, she murders Karlo and uses his corpse as fertilizer for her plants. It was then that they finally copied what the cartoons had done, and made her "Special Friends" with Harley Quinn, who had now been introduced into comics canon. Except the Poison Ivy of the cartoon was a snarling, man-hating scientist, not this aloof, quasi-mystical "One With The Earth" mother-figure, so their relationship felt totally different. Like, the cartoon version weaponized hotness and tried repeatedly to get Harley away from "Mistah Jay", while the comics version almost never changed facial expressions once in all the books I have. Not your typical "Lesbian Crime Exploitation Film" vibe at all. It just doesn't fit.

-Ivy, at least, gains a new level of importance around this time. In Hush, she is used to mind control Superman & Catwoman into attacking Batman. She once gives herself up once her attempts at protecting her region of Gotham Park poisons one of her orphan girls. Thinking she's killing the orphans, she is given a serum to restore her humanity, and seemingly dies when she takes another one to transform back- she quickly reappears even more powerful, and acts as a murderous environmentalist again. Various murder victims (including incompetent henchmen and "tiresome lovers") are fed to a plant, which absorbs their souls and attacks her- she is nearly killed, but returns in Gotham City Sirens, a Harley/Ivy/Catwoman team-up book written by Paul Dini. Harley & Ivy try to reinforce a previously-injured Catwoman's confidence, but things end badly when Harley goes back to the Joker (Ivy nearly kills her, only barely stopping herself) and Catwoman reveals that she was keeping tabs on the other two for Batman. They are furious, but Catwoman still helps them escape capture. Despite various stories having her act utterly unmoved by many things, she is often devoted to Batman, even threatening suicide when she thinks he's dead as of a 2004 story.

-Ivy becomes a major character in the "New 52", with a new origin story (her father killed her mother and buried her in a garden; she started out using botany to control minds and even killed her father with a poison kiss) and a role in the Birds of Prey book, where she betrayed them quickly, showing her true nature. She got her own solo book out of nowhere (where she raised three plant-human girls to a quick adulthood), then in "Rebirth" got refashioned again. Here, she is merged with "The Green" (the animating force that Swamp Thing is a part of), and finally hooks up with Harley in an official context, decades after the wink-wink stuff in the cartoon. Harley wishes to move in together, but Ivy says her mission comes first- they part as friends, but Harley is disappointed.

Poison Ivy- Epic Femme Fatale:
-Poison Ivy is a tricky one, as she's had 3-4 different incarnations over the years- this build kind of fits her early self... but only if you remove all the powers but one, as she had none Pre-Crisis save Immunity to Poison. Post-Crisis, she starts developing more and more powers, until she ends up this PL 10 Plant Controller. But then her PERSONALITY shifts, as she sometimes acts super cold, and is just a misanthrope. But in any case, in most stories set after the mid-90s, she can ensnare people, stab at them with vines, grow plants, use vines to break down entire buildings, control the minds of people, and even poison others with a deadly kiss.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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drkrash
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Batgirl III! Anarky! Professor Pyg! Dr. Double X!)

Post by drkrash »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:49 pm Woo! Finally only about a week left of Batman builds :). I mostly built stuff alongside doing this set because spending all this time on one character is a bit much even for me, but I'm looking forward to finally posting some of the other things I was working on. November is really gonna be a month of Fighting Games for the most part, starting off with Guilty Gear.
I've been enjoying the Batman builds a lot, even if I haven't commented much, but I'll be interested to see if you can present Guilty Gear's story any more coherently than I understand it.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Batgirl III! Anarky! Professor Pyg! Dr. Double X!)

Post by Skavenger »

Each form of Poison Ivy had a great spot on the list of traits Batman's rogues bring. The villainous vamp is done a bit better with Talia, but the green costume and red hair...yowza. I do have a particular fondness for the ecological avenger form of her, though, someone who, through her own eyes, is fighting a crime even more heinous than what Batman fights every day, and is a hero herself. It's a good reflection against Batman, the lines he's willing or not willing to cross, and just how wide the scope of "what is a crime" actually goes, especially in this age of "is global warming a myth," rainforests being depleted, and massive fires in the American southwest.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Anarky! Prof. Pyg! Dr. Double X! Poison Ivy!)

Post by Sidney369 »

Poison Ivy was a member of the Injustice League, Secret Society of Supervillains, and the Suicide Squad, the first two pre-Crisis. Also, pre-Crisis, she was sometimes obsessed with making Batman fall in love with her, something that seems odd now.

Regarding Dr. Double X, there was an issue of the Brave and the Bold where he meets the Rainbow Raider, and the younger villain is a total fanboy of him.

Also, I don't know if you're going to cover the obscure villain Dagger, but I hope so. He has stuck with me because I first saw him in one of the anniversary issues. I saw him along side of the Joker, Riddler, TwoFace, and other notable villains. And although I hadn't heard of him, I assume he had made several appearances for him to be among the major rogues. But nope, he had only made one appearance previously. It just strikes me as odd.
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Re: Poison Ivy

Post by JDRook »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:02 pm Image

POISON IVY (Pamela Isley, formerly Dr. Lillian Rose)

Powers:

"Mind-Controlling Pheromones" Mind Control 9 (Extras: Area- Scent Perception, Progressive +2) (Flaws: Touch Range -2) (45) -- [53]
  • AE: "Poison Kiss" Weaken Stamina 12 (Extras: Progressive +2) (Inaccurate -2) (34)
  • AE: "Vine Snare" Snare 9 (Feats: Reversible) (28)
  • AE: "Storm of Vines" Snare 8 (Feats: Reversible) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Shapeable) (33)
  • AE: "Vine Blast" Blast 8 (Extras: Multiattack) (24)
  • AE: "Tell Your Ficus And I'll Know" Communication (Telepathy) 4 (Flaws: Limited to Plants) (12)
  • AE: "Grow Plants" Growth 10 (Flaws: Affects Others Only +0, Limited to Plants) (10)
  • AE: "Plants Move Stuff" Move Object 7 (14)
  • AE: "Vines Break Things Down" Weaken Toughness 8 (Extras: Affects Objects, Ranged) (24)


-Poison Ivy is a tricky one, as she's had 3-4 different incarnations over the years- this build kind of fits her early self... but only if you remove all the powers but one, as she had none Pre-Crisis save Immunity to Poison. Post-Crisis, she starts developing more and more powers, until she ends up this PL 10 Plant Controller. But then her PERSONALITY shifts, as she sometimes acts super cold, and is just a misanthrope. But in any case, in most stories set after the mid-90s, she can ensnare people, stab at them with vines, grow plants, use vines to break down entire buildings, control the minds of people, and even poison others with a deadly kiss.


The "Grow Plants" power using the Growth Effect on plants doesn't really work mechanically. A good alternative is a Permanent Create with a "Growing Plants" descriptor, with the Power Loss Complication covering the need for available plantlife. She can use this to grow walls of trees or vines for cover, concealment, trapping, supporting weight and even dropping trees or other plant parts on targets, all of which can be handled by Create.
Jabroniville
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Re: Poison Ivy

Post by Jabroniville »

JDRook wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 3:09 am
The "Grow Plants" power using the Growth Effect on plants doesn't really work mechanically. A good alternative is a Permanent Create with a "Growing Plants" descriptor, with the Power Loss Complication covering the need for available plantlife. She can use this to grow walls of trees or vines for cover, concealment, trapping, supporting weight and even dropping trees or other plant parts on targets, all of which can be handled by Create.
Yeah, I guess- I always just lazily threw that in there because "Well, they're making the plants GROW" and it had little effect other than, well, making a plant bigger so maybe you could step on it to get over something. It typically loses its usefulness the second you step off of it, so it doesn't matter that it'd stop working the second you used a different power.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Batgirl III! Anarky! Professor Pyg! Dr. Double X!)

Post by Ken »

Ares wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:39 pm
Ken wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:23 pm If there was ever a villain who needed to be gender swapped, it is Doctor Double-X.
Granted, if they did that, they'd probably make her Doctor Double-D. Or give her the ability to split into three forms so you'd get Dr. X, Dr. XX then Dr. XXX.
Probably. But from a genetic standpoint, he still looks more like someone with an XY pair, not XX.
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Re: Poison Ivy

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:02 pm POISON IVY

-Pre-Crisis, Poison Ivy is botanist Dr. Lillian Rose, who is persuaded to assist a crook in the theft of some Egyptian artifacts containing ancient herbs. Fearing she would implicate him, the man poisons her with the herbs, but she survives, develping an immunity to all natural toxins and diseases. He appearances are quite sparse- she debuts in 1966, then appears in a few 1977 comics acting as part of the Bat-Rogues and getting one solo-villain appearance. She shows up every couple of years in the '80s as well, which is better than MOST '60s villains, but it's still not much of a thing.
She was also a member of both the Injustice Gang of the World appearing in #s 111, 143, and 158 of Justice League of America and the Super Foes (along with her sidekick!? Honeysuckle) in the first two issues of The Super Friends.
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Harley Quinn

Post by Jabroniville »

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HARLEY QUINN (Doctor Harleen Quinzell)
Created By:
Bruce Timm & Paul Dini
Role: Villain's Right Hand, Quirky Girl, Comic Relief (to the Comic Relief Villain)
Mental Problems: Is in love with THE JOKER
Voice Actor: Arleen Sorkin
First Episode: "Joker's Favor"
Finest Moment: Came up with a prank all her own, that nearly killed The Batman.
PL 10 (134)
STRENGTH
2/5 STAMINA 3/5 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 12 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 7 (+12)
Deception 7 (+10)
Expertise (Animal Handling) 8 (+11)
Expertise (Criminal) 4 (+6)
Expertise (Psychologist) 6 (+8)
Intimidation 3 (+6)
Perception 3 (+4)
Vehicles 3 (+8)

Advantages:
Attractive, Daze (Deception), Equipment 6 (Bazooka, Gun, Mallet), Power Attack, Ranged Attack 5, Taunt

Powers:
"Enhancements By Ivy"
Enhanced Strength 3 [6]
Enhanced Stamina 2 [4]
Immunity 1 (Poison) (Flaws: Limited to Half-Effect) [0.5]
Regeneration 2 [2]
Leaping 2 (30 feet) [2]

Equipment:
"Bazooka" Blast 8 (30ft. Area Burst 6) (22)
"Giant Mallet" Strength-Damage +3 (Feats: Reach) (4)

Offense:
Unarmed +12 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Enhanced Strength +12 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Giant Mallet +12 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Enhanced Mallet +12 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Bazooka +10 & +6 Area (+8 +6 Ranged Damage, DC 23 & 21)
Initiative +5

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +13 (DC 23), Toughness +3 (+5 Enhanced), Fortitude +6 (+8 Enhanced), Will +7

Complications:
Motivation (Fun, Greed)
Relationship ("Babies!")- Harley is very devoted to her pair of non-housebroken Hyenas.
Relationship ("Puddin'!")- Harley is desperately in love with The Joker, and will even take him back with open arms after he's beaten her or tried to kill her.

Total: Abilities: 68 / Skills: 41--20.5 / Advantages: 15 / Powers: 14.5 / Defenses: 16 (134)

Harley Quinn- Cartoon-Only Character To Mainstream Icon:
-Man, this is a weird one. Who goes from a Guest-Shot Walk-On role (created entirely because the producer had a hard-on for an actress) and then becomes one of the biggest icons in modern comics? Despite the actual comics repeatedly botching her.

-The infamous Harley Quinn was basically a walk-on character in the Joker's Favor episode, but Bruce Timm (Kevin Conroy says that Paul Dini only created the character because he had a crush on Arleen Sorkin) did such an AMAZING job on her character design that she immediately took off, and became a recurring character as The Joker's Number Two. An ideal sidekick, she gave a sense of obsessive romance and gleeful anarchy to an already crazy Joker, and it was so perfect they copied it entirely for the mainstream comics (of course, they couldn't resist dinking it up by making her a half-good guy and breaking her up with Mistah Jay almost immediately- I think they've spent far more time apart now). She was ALMOST sympathetic if not for the fact that she was so easily led.

-I still say most of her popularity comes from that episode that pretty much stated as text (as opposed to subtext) that she & Poison Ivy were totally "close" (wink wink, nudge nudge) during that one episode where they formed a girl posse. Heck, the writers even had The Joker call them a "pair of busy little beavers!" before they thought better of it (it even passed the censor board!). All thanks to one "sexy shirt switch".

-But yeah, Harley was a great character, a fun design, a remorseless Mook, and more... all of it came together with Sorkin's phenomenal "Brooklyn Valley Girl" acting in the role. And then they went and made her SYMPATHETIC. Her origin was finally explained- she was a young, naiive prison psychologist who was taken in by the Joker, easily manipulated into feeling sympathy for him, and finally got so twisted that she became his Girl Friday. And best/worst of all... she was basically unappreciated. Just there to do a role, nothing more. Joker's obsessive desires for revenge and what-not even led him to IGNORE HER WANTING TO BONE HIM, as a lingerie-clad Harley begs him to "Rev up your HARLEY!" Another episode has her try to impress him with "Smiling Piranhas", but he's so enraged over her EXPLAINING THE JOKE that he viciously backhands her and insults her for misunderstanding comedy. So she's this abusive, psychotic, obsessive girlfriend- a few episodes even show that she, of all the villains, could perhaps be saved- an attempt to reform still leads her back to prison, but even her kidnapping victim is sympathetic.

-So of course this iconic Abused Girlfriend would go on to become a popular symbol of joy and mayhem :). Hell, she's even a Main Character in the DC SuperHero Girls doll line! She's targetted towards LITTLE GIRLS! The "Rev up your Harley!" chick! But really... that's kind of just how things go. One great design and that's all it takes. Hell, much of the media just drops the Joker almost entirely. DC SuperHero Girls used her as a generic "Wacky Heroine" roommate of Wonder Woman's.

Harley in Canon:
-So Harley in the official comics debuts for real in 1999- all other versions were alternate realities and stuff. Paul Dini himself wrote the Graphic Novel that introduced her- her TV origin is kept, and she's plopped into the middle of the No Man's Land story. She is mostly a complete nutjob like in the early Batman: TAS episodes, though her whacky look is a bit of a contrast with the DCU's mainstream, darker take on the Joker. Harley was promptly given a solo book by Karl Kesel & Terry Dodson, making her a humorous nutjob, leaving the Joker (note: They'd been together for like five months- thus meaning the DC character had no "real" connection of the Joker) and becoming a solo criminal. The book had poor sales, was given a darker direction when Kesel was given the boot, and was done after three years. 2009 saw the Dini-written Gotham City Sirens book feature Harley, Ivy & Catwoman as a trio of dysfunctional anti-heroes.

-This kind of leads to a weird thing that exemplifies how messed up Harley was for the actual comics: in the TV show, the Joker was an unhinged nutjob, but more of a crook with a hatred of Batman. He was wild and bizarre, and very frightening for normal people, but wasn't a mass-murderer nor a serial killer into torture. So having this goofy, silly sidekick obsessed with him made her a grittier, darker character, in direct contrast to her appearance and persona. I mean, her debut story featured the Joker strapping bombs to BABIES and shooting Commissioner Gordon's wife in the head, killing her. So it was incongruous and just didn't work... so of course the writers responded by making her a solo character immediately. Then the "Heroic Harley" stuff kind of started up, and you're like "But... the story with the BABIES!". Writers repeatedly trying to "fix" this just ended up with there being about 90 different "takes" on Harley Quinn, which is insane for a character that debuted for the comics in 1999. At least the Jimmy Palmiotti/Amanda Conner book was well-received, which played up Harley & Ivy as romantic partners. The "New 52" took repeated shots with Harley, with a much-hated sexualized take in Suicide Squad (and an infamous 2013 "Draw Harley committing suicide- tee hee!" campaign) giving way to other versions, and by 2016, DC President Jim Lee was calling her one of the "four pillars" of the line.

Harley Enters the Wider DC Universe:
-Harley got a MUCH bigger role in the expanded (ie. Merch-Driven) DC Universe, though. She even got the starring role in the Suicide Squad movie, which basically gave her a "slutty chick with lots of mascara" design, but had her played by the current "This Is Our New Big Thing; Don't Fight It" actress Margot Robbie. Though notably the comics, movies and other shows have long-since dropped the old design and muted the clown features into more of a "Harlequin" look that looks sexier on a flesh & blood human being.

-So they put the character as the most prominent member in the Suicide Squad movie, push her toy in DC SuperHero Girls, and overall have upgraded her to be primed as their #2 or 3 "Female Character". This also has the effect of edging out Marvel, who's still only pushed any in secondary roles in the supporting materials (Black Widow is only on Hawkeye's level in the movies; most women in the cartoons are mere Tokens), making DC the much more "Girl-Friendly" option. They've got most of the famous female superheroes, and the most popular female villain (Catwoman by a country mile over anyone else). I mean, I'd argue that a Marvel SuperHero Girls cartoon could be every bit as good, have even better characters, and WAY more choices for Ethnic Friends (Storm, Monica Rambeau, Kamala Khan, Jubilee, Kitty Pryde I guess, etc.)... most of them ain't famous.

Harley as a Whole:
-As usual, Harley's best stuff by far was all linked to the Animated Series. Here, she went from a funny sidekick to a "Moll"-type character, and was then given a tragic backstory, as the Joker tricks her into thinking he's a sad-sack who needs pity and care, then manipulates her into joining his mad quest. She is in many episodes thus made a tragic "Abused Girlfriend": The Joker repeatedly ignores her, beats her for insubordination, and more- and when she tries to leave him, even having a sexy adventure with Poison Ivy, the jealous madman tries to strongarm her into going back... and Harvey later relents, joining back up with him. It's this sick, tragic abusive relationship, and the rare moments where she's nice to others (like Batman, when he tries to help her out and give her another chance) mean all the more. "I had a bad day too, once." "Nice guys like you shouldn't have bad days".

-The unfortunate thing was, the comics avoided all of that legwork and merely "assumed" we had the whole story (a continuous problem with DC, especially when their reboots erasing all established continuity), so when Harley leaves the Joker, she had only been with him for a short time, and had done much worse crimes than TV Joker (who was only a guy to make deathtraps, and had killed very few people). So none of that abusive relationship was really there when she left him, so her "being free" meant little. And she didn't go back to him repeatedly, making it a different sort of thing entirely.

Harley's Capabilities:
-Harley was a capable PL 8 minion to The Joker, but had some kind of vague power-ups after being given a "Potion" by Poison Ivy, so she's stronger than she should be and has "depending on the writer" Regenerative powers (at one point, she healed from gunshots almost the second the bullets were removed).
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Prof. Pyg! Poison Ivy! Harley Quinn!)

Post by Goldar »

Arleen Sorkin is the perfect voice actor for Harley. Sorkin once played "Calliope Jones" whose character was almost Harley (except for the physical stuff).
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Davies
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Prof. Pyg! Poison Ivy! Harley Quinn!)

Post by Davies »

What's interesting about Harley's origin is that there are actually two different versions of it, both by Paul Dini.

In one version, she's a poor student who basically sleeps her way to her degree, is only interested in getting juicy gossip for a tell-all book, and is utterly unprepared for the Joker's manipulation, quickly falling into his sway.

In the other version, she's a frankly brilliant psychiatrist who is the only person to see all the way through the Joker's manipulation and discover his secret past, and realize that he's not insane, just utterly malicious, and so he devotes considerable effort to breaking her psychologically. ("Case Study".)

Just like him, then, her past is multiple choice.
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brothersale
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Prof. Pyg! Poison Ivy! Harley Quinn!)

Post by brothersale »

just side note, regarding harley is that if the Marian Drews (Harley Quinn) from White Knight is well enough recieved by fans, rumour has it she may make the transition to the main comics to smooth out any inconsistancies, while moving the orginal to a more anti-hero stance for the aformentioned little girl market.
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Ken
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Prof. Pyg! Poison Ivy! Harley Quinn!)

Post by Ken »

Goldar wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:56 pm Arleen Sorkin is the perfect voice actor for Harley. Sorkin once played "Calliope Jones" whose character was almost Harley (except for the physical stuff).
Well yeah. Harley was expressly based on Sorkin's "Calliope Jones". Some sources say Dini did it because he had a crush on Sorkin, see above. Some sources say they were college buddies, and she gave him a tape of her best moments on "Days of Our Lives" and he happened to pop it in when he was trying to come-up with a "moll" for the Joker for an episode he was writing for the then-unaired series. Arguably they could both be true.
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Sidney369
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Prof. Pyg! Poison Ivy! Harley Quinn!)

Post by Sidney369 »

There has to be multiple Harley Quinns. It's the only way to explain how in the same month, she could be: 1) locke up in Arkham in a Bat-title, 2) locked up in Belle Reve in the Suicie Squad, and 3) living in her own apartment in Brooklyn in her own book.
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Shock
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Prof. Pyg! Poison Ivy! Harley Quinn!)

Post by Shock »

Sidney369 wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:52 am There has to be multiple Harley Quinns. It's the only way to explain how in the same month, she could be: 1) locke up in Arkham in a Bat-title, 2) locked up in Belle Reve in the Suicie Squad, and 3) living in her own apartment in Brooklyn in her own book.
This is why "everything must be in continuity" becomes such a problem.
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