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Jabroniville
Posts: 24689
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Banshee

Post by Jabroniville »

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"This one," he said, pointing at Storm, "must be Banshee."
"No, that's Storm," I said. "Here's Banshee."
"Jim, don't you know that banshees are FEMALE?"
"Yes, but, you should take that up with Roy. He created this guy a long time ago."
"ROY?!" Stan had that look of horror and incredulity you get when you discover that the guy who's been doing your taxes can't add or subtract.
"ROY doesn't know banshees are female?!"
"I guess he thought it didn't matter."
-Jim Shooter, talking about the day he & Stan Lee checked out the rosters of the Old and New X-Men


BANSHEE (Sean Cassidy)
Created By:
Roy Thomas & Werner Roth
First Appearance: The X-Men #28 (Jan. 1967)
Role: Ethnic Stereotype (especially at first), The Old Cop, The Retired Hero, The Guy Who Gets Written Out
Country of Origin: Ireland
Group Affiliations: The NYPD, Interpol, The X-Men, Generation-X
PL 10 (164)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Close Combat (Unarmed) 3 (+10)
Deception 5 (+7)
Expertise (Interpol/Police Officer) 7 (+10)
Insight 5 (+8)
Investigation 7 (+10)
Perception 5 (+8)
Vehicles 2 (+5)

Advantages:
Equipment (X-Uniform), Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Sonic Scream) 2, Improved Smash, Jack-of-All-Trades, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 5, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
"Mutant Powers: Sonic Scream"
"Sonic Flight" Flight 8 (500 mph) (Flaws: Winged Costume) [8]

"Loud Scream- Burst" Dazzle Hearing 10 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2) (Flaws: Touch Range) (30) -- [39]
  • AE: "Loud Scream- Cone" Dazzle 10 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Cone) (Flaws: Touch Range) (20)
  • AE: "Stunning Scream" Affliction 10 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Cumulative, Ranged) (30)
  • AE: "Shake Apart Objects" Weaken Toughness 10 (Extras: Ranged, Penetrating) (Flaws: Limited to Objects) (30)
  • AE: "Hypnotic Trance" Affliction 8 (Will; Dazed/Compelled/Controlled) (Extras: Cumulative, Area-Perception) (24)
  • AE: "Nauseating Scream" Affliction 8 (Fort; Impaired/Disabled/Incapacitated) (Extras: Ranged) (16)
  • AE: "Concussive Scream" Blast 10 (Feats: Precise) (21)
  • AE: "Concussive Cone" Damage 10 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Cone) (20)
  • AE: "Concussive Ram" Damage 10 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Line) (20)
  • AE: "Neutralize Scanning Equipment" Concealment (Hearing) 10 (Extras: Affects Others, Area- 30ft. Burst) (Flaws: Limited to Machines) (20)
"Specialized Hearing" Senses 6 (Accurate Extended & Ultra-Hearing) [6]
"Screaming Deflection Field" Enhanced Advantages 2: Defensive Roll 2 [2]
Immunity 1 (Sonic Dazzles) [1]
"Cassidy Clan" Immunity 1 (Black Tom Cassidy's Blast Powers) [1]

Equipment:
X-Men Uniform (Communications, Wings for Flight)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Loud Screams +10 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 20)
Stunning/Nauseating Screams +10 (+10 Ranged Affliction, DC 20)
Shake Apart +10 (+10 Ranged Weaken, DC 20)
Hypnotic Trance +8 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 18)
Concussive Scream +10 (+10 Ranged Damage, DC 25)
Concussive Area Screams +10 Areas (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +3 (+5 D.Roll), Fortitude +6, Will +8

Complications:
Prejudice (Mutant)
Responsibility (Cassidy Keep)- Sean is the heir to Cassidy Keep, and technically in charge of the entire Clan.
Relationship ("Black" Tom Cassidy)- Sean and Tom were as close as brothers in their youth, though Tom was a bit of a bad boy- when they competed for the heart of the same woman (Maeve Rourke), Tom willingly stepped aside when he discovered she loved Sean. But when Maeve died in a terrorist bombing, Sean blamed Tom for her loss (he was away at the time), and the two became bitter enemies. Tom has since tried to murder Banshee and take Cassidy Keep for himself.
Relationship (Theresa Cassidy)- Tom raised Sean's daughter Theresa without telling Sean of her existence, as punishment for Sean crippling him. He did not meet her until she was an adult, though the two seemed close.
Relationship (Moira MacTaggart)- After Maeve, Moira was the love of Sean's life, and he was devoted to her, eventually retiring to Muir Island with her. He was heartbroken when she left him (needing to be alone, out of guilt for brainwashing Magneto), and again when she was killed by Mystique.
Power Loss (Screams)- All of Banshee's powers are dependent on his ability to scream. If he is gagged, choked, injured in the throat area or otherwise unable to scream, none of his powers aside from Extended & Ultra-Hearing (and the Cassidy Clan bit) will be effective. He will also be depowered immediately if he ever uses Extra Effort for his scream- this happened A LOT. The effect often lasts for months if the power is used continuously in such a manner.
Relationship (Generation-X)- Sean became a father figure to the Generation-X kids.

Total: Abilities: 56 / Skills: 34--17 / Advantages: 16 / Powers: 57 / Defenses: 18 (164)

Banshee- The Forgotten X-Man:
-I actually liked Banshee a lot reading Chris Claremont's X-Men run for the first time. The guy just didn't have much luck, though- he's a HUGE part of the original Giant-Size line-up (having actually debuted in the late '60s as a brainwashed enemy-turned-ally), constantly saving the day, and got tons of lip service from the writers early on, as he was arguably the most powerful and versatile member of the entire team, and lasted an amazing FOUR YEARS on X-Men... but of course got injured in a 1979 issue and retired, meaning he missed out on the most legendary stories the book had- he wasn't there for The Dark Phoenix Saga, Days of Future Past or anything! As a result, if you ask most people who weren't there, they'll never realize that Banshee was ever such an important member of the X-Men!

-His backstory is also a bit elaborate- a former Special Agent with a great deal of undercover work, he fathered a child (Theresa- aka Siryn) without his knowledge, as his wife Maeve Rourke-Cassidy died soon after Siryn's birth in an IRA terrorist attack. He badly injured his cousin Black Tom for not protecting the woman they both loved (they competed over her, but even Tom admitted that Sean was the better man), and out of revenge, Tom hid Theresa's existence from Sean until very recent times.

Banshee's Debut & X-Years:
-Banshee made his debut in 1967 as part of Factor Three- an alliance of villains led by the Changeling. A cartoonish Irish caricature with rosy cheeks and a wide grin, he had rejected their offer, but was controlled via technology in order to carry out their bidding. He is freed by Professor X, and turns on Factor Three and beats them. He appears a couple more times after that, but only in one-off roles (again in Thomas's X-Men against Factor Three, and once as a mistaken adversary in Captain America. After that, he joins the All-New, All-Different X-Men, intended to be one of a few "early" characters to "fail the entrance exam", alongside Sunfire & Thunderbird. However, Chris Claremont, the new writer, decided he liked the guy too much, and so kept him around as a bit of an "elder statesman" and a maturing influence on some of the others. In the book, he actually gets a LOT of cred (at one point, Magneto flat-out states that "among you, only HE is my equal!" and Magneto actually struggles more against him than any of the other X-Men, whom he can easily trounce).

-He even got a personalized villain, in his cousin- the vicious "Black" Tom Cassidy, who by this point was palling around with old X-foe, The Juggernaut! Of course this was in a bizarre story where the X-Men go to Cassidy Keep, where it turns out that the Cassidy Clan had a HUGE ancestral castle... and the X-Men meet some leprechauns who were living in it (I don't believe they have ever been referred to again, lol). And he even added some romance to the book when he fell in love with Charles's ex, Moira MacTaggert, complete with a "Meet Cute" where he assumes by her name that she's some ancient harridan and she turns out to be a very attractive, if constantly angry, frowning woman. Hell, I remember being SHOCKED when reading those awesome Essential collections that not only was Banshee on the book for YEARS, but he was given tons of credit! Once he gets hurt (a recurring trend with him), he left for over a decade!

-It was Claremont that gave Sean a neat past in his X-Men: Vignettes series, showing him crushing on Maeve when they were younger. Tom also had his sights on her, and he was handsomer and more confident, "with the Devil's own charm" as Sean put it. Both dated Maeve and truly loved her, but one day Sean broke his leg and asked Tom to tell Maeve. Tom chose to act like Sean had abandoned Maeve so he could win her over more... but seeing her disappointment hurt Tom so much he came clean, insisting she must hate him for his lies. Maeve instantly forgave him, stating "You've been my dearest friend!"- this is what helps Sean land Maeve.

Banshee Bails:
-Alas, it wasn't to last- Banshee was de-powered after straining his vocal cords saving the team from Moses Magnum, and soon moved off to the Scottish coast with his lady-love, thus missing out on the Dark Phoenix thing (he was there when Jean first became possessed by the entity). And so of course Sean missed out on countless legendary, life-changing storylines for the X-Men, only popping up once in a while (and usually because the team needed MOIRA, not him). So there Banshee sat on Muir Island, keeping Moira company, and only showing up occasionally (he was kidnapped by James Proudstar, angry over Banshee having been there watching his brother John die). A long-lost daughter was introduced as an enemy of Spider-Woman's, as well. It wasn't until the early '90s that we saw him return, wearing a modified, Jim Lee version of the original X-Men uniforms (which looked REALLY GOOD under Jim's work, don't get me wrong- this is one of my favorite art styles for the team, with most of the group temporarily wearing them). He helped out the team a couple of times, and was there for Claremont's send-off in X-Men #3, fighting the brainwashed Blue Strike Force on Asteroid M.

Generation X:
-Banshee would split up with Moira after that, as she felt unworthy of love once word got out that she'd been trying to genetically engineer an infant Magneto in hoping that he'd turn out differently as an adult (Magneto was piiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiissed). They'd be off-and-on a bit after that, continuing when Banshee was chosen as one of the mentors/schoolmasters in Generation X, with a whole new group of Mutant kids. He gets a bit more backstory, but not as much character development as Emma Frost (who gains TWO long-lost sisters!). Of course since I didn't read anything but the first arc and people on Wikipedia never sum up old stories I know almost literally nothing he did, haha. He went back on the shelf after the book was canceled, ending up on the "X-Corps" disaster, where he ended up killed off unceremoniously while trying to stop a bomb. Sucks to be him, especially since he's come back under the control of evil people THREE FRIGGIN' TIMES (Selene, Amatsu-Mikaboshi & The Apocalypse Twins all did it within about five years). As of five years ago, he was alive, but possessed by a Celestial Death Seed, which renders him evil, so he's trapped in X-Men Jail. House of X and the stuff Hickman was doing seemed to sort him out, but he remains a minor backgrounder, not focused on.

-Banshee thus remains an underrated character with a very unique power-set, albeit one that his equally-interesting (and more "current") daughter also has, so he doesn't get to do a whole lot anymore. The fact that his legacy was damaged by leaving the X-Men so "soon" (a four-year run is nothing to sneeze at) holds him back a lot, too. But like I said, I liked him- unlike most of the wild, argumentative renegades that make of Marvel (and ESPECIALLY the X-Books), ol' Sean was actually a mature, reasonable adult. Like Danny Glover's "I'm too old for this shit!" but as an old-school superhero. He had enough personal relations to keep him interesting (dating a major X-side character, a daughter, AND a cousin who was now a super-villain) and could really fit in with almost any team.

Banshee's Stats:
-Banshee's fully-balanced on Offense, with a powerful Area Attack Blast & Dazzle, with a few handy Alt-Effects attached to it, making him a VERY versatile Blaster, capable of wiping out entire SWATHS of guys in one shot. However, this is a tricky ability for someone who fights on teams (it's REALLY easy to catch your teammates in the crosshairs of a Cone Effect that's 60-feet wide at the end. Plus, he's vulnerable, like most Blasters in comics tend to be. Not AS bad of a Glass Cannon, but he's only PL 7.5 in that regard- he's one or two bad saves from going down to almost ANY decently-balanced attack. He's also one of the more skilled X-Men, though honestly that didn't come up a whole lot during his first run- it was boosted in the Gen-X years and more, once he'd gotten more of a solo focus.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24689
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Siryn

Post by Jabroniville »

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Fanart by RamArtwork.

SIRYN (Theresa Rourke Cassidy, aka Banshee II)
Created By:
Chris Claremont & Steve Leiahola
First Appearance: Spider-Woman #37 (April 1981)
Role: The Sudden Offspring, The Hot One
Group Affiliations: Muir Island X-Men, X-Force, The Fallen Angels, X-Corporation, X-Factor Investigations
PL 10 (151)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Acrobatics 2 (+5)
Athletics 2 (+3)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+8)
Deception 4 (+6)
Expertise (Criminal) 3 (+4)
Insight 2 (+4)
Intimidation 4 (+6)
Investigation 6 (+8)
Perception 4 (+6)
Persuasion 5 (+7)
Ranged Combat (Sonic Screams) 4 (+10)
Vehicles 1 (+5)

Advantages:
Equipment (X-Uniform), Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Sonic Scream), Improved Smash, Ranged Attack 2, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
"Mutant Powers: Sonic Scream"
"Sonic Flight" Flight 8 (500 mph) (Flaws: Requires Winged Costume) [8]

"Loud Scream- Burst" Dazzle Hearing 10 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2) (Flaws: Touch Range) (30) -- [41]
  • AE: "Loud Scream- Cone" Dazzle Hearing 10 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Cone) (Flaws: Touch Range) (20)
  • AE: "Stunning Scream" Affliction 10 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Cumulative, Ranged) (30)
  • AE: "Lull Them To Sleep" Affliction 8 (Fort; Fatigued/Exhausted/Asleep) (Extras: Area- Auditory Perception, Cumulative) (24)
  • AE: "Shake Apart Objects" Weaken Toughness 10 (Extras: Ranged, Penetrating) (Flaws: Limited to Objects) (30)
  • AE: "Hypnotic Trance" Affliction 8 (Will; Dazed/Compelled/Controlled) (Extras: Cumulative, Area-Perception) (Flaws: Limited to Humans) (16)
  • AE: "Nauseating Scream" Affliction 8 (Fort; Impaired/Disabled/Incapacitated) (Extras: Ranged) (16)
  • AE: "Concussive Scream" Blast 10 (20)
  • AE: "Concussive Cone" Damage 10 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Cone) (30)
  • AE: "Sonic Lance" Damage 10 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Line) (30)
  • AE: "Neutralize Scanning Equipment" Concealment (Hearing) 10 (Extras: Affects Others, Area- 30ft. Burst) (Flaws: Limited to Machines) (20)
  • AE: "Sonic Force Field" Protection 5 (Extras: Sustained +0, Affects Others 6) (11)
"Specialized Hearing" Senses 8 (Extended & Ultra-Hearing, Accurate Radius Hearing) [8]
"Screaming Deflection Field" Enhanced Advantages 2: Defensive Roll 2 [2]

Equipment:
X-Men Uniform (Communications, Wings for Flight)

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Loud Screams +10 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 20)
Stunning/Nauseating Screams +10 (+10 Ranged Affliction, DC 20)
Shake Apart +10 (+10 Ranged Weaken, DC 20)
Hypnotic Trance +8 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 18)
Concussive Scream +10 (+10 Ranged Damage, DC 25)
Concussive Area Screams +10 Areas (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +3 (+5 D.Roll, +10 Force Field), Fortitude +6, Will +6

Complications:
Prejudice (Mutant)
Relationship (Black Tom Cassidy)- Her family is screwed up. Born the daughter of Banshee and Maeve Rourke, Siryn was raised by her father's cousin Black Tom, a super-villain following her mother's death in a terrorist attack. Tom also wanted to punish Banshee, who crippled him, by hiding his daughter from him. Theresa hates Tom for this, but also loves him as her father.
Relationship (Sean Cassidy- Father)- She also tries to uphold Banshee's legacy now that he has passed, going by his code-name now.
Relationship (Jamie Madrox)- Siryn fell in love with Jamie Madrox during The Fallen Angels series and on Muir Island, not knowing that it was a "Dupe", and that the original could not reciprocate those feelings. Eventually the two DID fall in love, but then he resorbed the offspring of Siryn and another "Dupe", and she was devastated.
Relationship (Deadpool)- The insane Deadpool's only real positive quality was a real, actual love for Theresa. She found herself a bit taken with him, and flattered by his attention, and made mention that she'd consider taking things further if he continued down the path of good.
Reputation (One Of Those Girls)- Though she doesn't sleep around (nor use her looks to her advantage), Theresa is easy to fall for, and she's left a long-running string of men pining for her, going back to her time in Ireland. Madrox and his Dupes, X-Force teammate Warpath, the "Merc With a Mouth" Deadpool, and others.
Addiction (Alcohol)- Theresa began drinking at a young age, and reached "Rock Bottom" while on vacation with Warpath, where she confronted Black Tom Cassidy and her past, and made her peace with both of them.
Power Loss (Screams)- All of Siryn's powers are dependent on her ability to scream. If she is gagged, choked, injured in the throat area or otherwise unable to scream, none of her powers aside from Extended & Ultra-Hearing will be effective.

Total: Abilities: 46 / Skills: 38--19 / Advantages: 8 / Powers: 59 / Defenses: 19 (151)

Siryn- Early But Forgotten Jab Waifu:
-Man, did I ever have a crush on Siryn back in the day. I kind of had a thing for redheads back then, despite my usual thing being brunettes, ever since I saw Marvel Girl (Jean)... and Siryn was even HOTTER, especially the way Tony Daniel drew her- with a ridiculously skinny physique with a big bubble butt and boobs... well, I was fourteen, what the hell do you want from me? What's funny is that she debuted as a Spider-Woman villain, having been twisted by her evil Uncle, Black Tom Cassidy (Tom, a scumbag, had his foster-daughter Theresa commit crimes for him, and out of loyalty, she did). She turned good quickly (Tom, feeling guilty, exonerates her of all crimes), but pretty well disappeared from comics in the meantime. She was on The Fallen Angels, the Muir Island X-Men and more, seemingly being stuck in some permanent zone of forgotten zone of Marvel Limbo until ROB LIEFELD of all people rescues her from nothingness, putting her on X-Force, which gave her a new lease on life for years. Ever since, she's largely only been on "Isle of Misfit Toys" X-teams. But it's better than most people with her origins ("villain in Spider-Woman" especially) got.

Siryn's Origins:
-Theresa was born to Maeve Rourke Cassidy, wife of Banshee, but the poor woman died while Terry was in her infancy. With Maeve's husband Sean away on Interpol business (never having known of his daughter's birth), Terry was raised by her uncle, Black Tom, who had also loved Maeve but accepted her choice of Sean (even he admitted that Sean was the better man). When Sean arrived home, he was shattered by the death of his wife, and blamed Tom- assaulting him and leaving him crippled for life. This infuriated Tom, who, out of spite, decided not to tell Sean of his daughter. He raised her on his own, but as he was by this point an absentee criminal who was often in jail, she grew up to be a bit of a troublemaker- he sent her away to boarding school (and underage drinking) while he became a hardened criminal- being jailed while she was in her teens. At some point, she gains her father's mutant powers.

-Tom eventually trains Theresa to be his criminal accomplice, at which point she battles the heroine Spider-Woman (the first one) in her solo series. Tom, feeling guilty, exonerates Terry of all wrongdoing once he's arrested, and then writes a letter to Sean, now the superhero Banshee, explaining Terry's existence. Father and daughter are thus brought together at last. She eventually starts hanging out at Muir Island (her father is dating Moira MacTaggert at the time), joining their odd enclave of Mutants that Chris Claremont doesn't feel like writing about at that particular moment. While there, she hooks up with the Fallen Angels (as part of a weird collection of random mutants including Sunspot, Warlock, some sentient lobsters & Jamie Madrox), but when that Limited Series, she got wrapped up in the control of the Shadow King, who used the "Muir Island X-Men" to his own ends. I first saw the character in a Kings of Pain crossover in one year's X-Annuals, featuring a team-up between the then-new X-Force & New Warriors (both were written by the same man- Fabian Nicieza). Siryn was a mere minor character in that, but Fabe would pick up her thread a bit later...

X-Force:
-Siryn would eventually show up out of nowhere in the early days of X-Force, wearing a giant garbage bag-like costume (with artist Rob Liefeld's favorite thing- Excessive Linework), helping out the team against her uncle Black Tom and his best pal, The Juggernaut. Here, their relationship was highly adversarial, with Tom blasting her and Juggy nearly punching her off the World Trade Center. She was an odd selection for the book, lacking the New Mutants origins of most of the cast, and being a character established long prior in other books... I'm guessing Fabian must have seen something in her, because he would use her a fair bit, and Rob might have just went along with it.

-Siryn wouldn't do much under Liefeld, but later artists Greg Capullo & Tony Daniel would turn her into the resident "Miss Fanservice" (doing whatever back-bending poses DOMINO wasn't currently doing), and Nicieza would give her a bit of backstory involving a drinking problem- this was introduced VERY suddenly, with her wandering around completely shitfaced, shocking Cable by flirting with him, before Warpath walked up and was like "yeah, she does this a lot. The others don't know". This bit also introduced the idea that Warpath had a CRUSH on Terry, which I thought was rad, as they were my two favorite characters on the book. Meanwhile, the writers of Deadpool's stuff latched onto the idea that HE was in love with Terry, and as he was growing rapidly in importance to Marvel at the time, this raised her influence a bit. Meanwhile, it was explained that the Madrox she entered into a relationship with in Fallen Angels was actually one of his duplicates, and so Jamie himself didn't have any real feelings for her.

-Siryn appreciated Warpath's attempt to get her clean, but basically admitted that there was no romantic feelings on her part. Terry dropped her alcoholism pretty quickly- done in a pretty-good issue where she confronts Black Tom, and we got one of those rare "Juggernaut as a Normal Person" appearances, where a street clothes-wearing Cain Marko calmly agrees to give up Black Tom so he can get treatment for a deadly condition, while promising Warpath that he won't fight in a church- "I got some scruples, y'know?" Once that was over with, there was a mini-plot where she rankled at Cannonball (then the team leader, as Cable was thought dead), who would often pass her up for "Field Leader" in favor of his New Mutants buddies Sunspot & Rictor (though this was a bit clumsy, as Cable had rarely used her in that position either).

-Her relationship with Deadpool also eventually went nowhere- there were some weird bits where she was all "Aw, he waits outside my window while I'm asleep" (I wonder how much work the police have to do because guys watch & read this kind of "romantic" stuff and think it's OK to do in real life?), and she admitted an attraction to him... but ultimately he was a bit too insane for her, and she broke off any potential relationship (which I believe was never physically consummated anyhow).

X-Factor Investigations:
-Eventually, however, she became Team Leader of X-Force after numerous roster shake-ups had left it the bottom-tier X-Book, but she got her throat slashed by the now-evil Feral. She was removed from X-Force not long before its cancellation, and only Deadpool's swiping of some of Wolverine's blood cured her. She went into Marvel Limbo again after this (she was on X-Corporation- a short-lived attempt to keep all the "not doing anything" mutants semi-active behind the scenes), then got put onto Peter David's X-Factor Investigations, where she naturally fell in love with David's beloved Jamie Madrox (though at least this had a history- she'd fallen in love with a Dupe of his during Fallen Angels). Madrox being such a Pet Character during this time that he managed to sleep with both Theresa & Monet St. Croix in the SAME NIGHT (okay, Duplicates were involved, but COME THE HELL ON, DAVID, GET OFF YOUR FAVORITE CHARACTER'S WIENER).

-This had the most horrific implications ever, as it turns out the child of his she was carrying was actually the result of a one-night-thing with a Duplicate instead of the real Jamie, and so the Wee Baby Sean was actually ABSORBED INTO JAMIE MADROX the second he touched it! You can imagine this kinda ended their relationship, and he later hooks up with Layla Miller (EVERY WOMAN IN THIS SERIES WANTS TO BONE MADROX). Siryn has a one-night-stand with Deadpool, moves back to Ireland, is counseled by the Madrox "Dupe" who became a reverend, and takes the name Banshee, honoring her deceased father (culminating a long while of her being in denial over it, waiting for his inevitable resurrection). Eventually, she returns to the book, and becomes the new Morrigan, after killing the previous Godlike holder of that title- thus ends X-Factor, allowing David to make ANOTHER book full of second-stringers. Theresa at this point is now "The Morrigan", a Celtic Goddess and wish-granter thingie. This is the last seen of her in ages, but of course the "Everyone is resurrected" nature of House of X ends up with her & her dad reunited, though she isn't focused on (and appears in her mortal form- I would bet money the next writer forgets about the Morrigan thing anyways).

Overall:
-Siryn was really one of my big "Red Guardian Characters"- a character I think would be great for just about any team book. Her "Sonic Scream" powers are even more variable than her father's were, and she's a hell of a lot more fun to look at, too. She fills a lot of roles on a super-team at once (Blaster, Flier, Investigator, Status-Affecter), has a great look (the "yellow & black banded wings" thing just WORKS, y'know? Plus... the hair... *drool*...), and here mere presence tends to set things on fire: most of her stories involve some guy or another getting hooked on her- Warpath & Deadpool went stupid over her, she had an ongoing with with Madrox ('s Duplicates, I guess), etc.- in that X-Force comic that deals with her drinking, an old school chum of hers is given the same thing by the omniscient narrator ("He's seen the same look in James Proudstar's eyes looking back at himself in the mirror. Theresa Rourke Cassidy was always the kind of girl you could fall for. And her UNCLE was always the reason you were afraid to"). She's be a terrific character to randomly give a super-team "Upgrade" to- it's not like there's a lack of X-Men teams out there (what are there now? Four?), nor Avengers- she'd fit in perfectly on any one of those groups. Plus, she once HAD SEX... WITH DEADPOOL.

Siryn's Stats:
-Siryn's a fun little build to put together, since it's fairly unique AND full of tons of Alternate Effects, meaning I get to mix and match tons of little powers together. There's two Area-type Auditory Dazzles, three kinds of Blasts, a Stun & a Nauseate, a Force Field, an Electronic Detection Neutralizer, a Hypnotic effect AND a Ranged Weaken all put together! In addition, she has specialized Hearing and "Sonar" (which is thankfully listed in 2e's Ultimate Power, so I made the power the same way here), and can Fly as long as she has a winged costume with her. Despite this, she doesn't even make full PL points, since she was always kind of limited aside from her power (and can't come close to her her Defensive Caps unless she's not using any offensive powers). She's fairly smart, aware, and charismatic, but not really specialized at any other skill, y'know?
Jabroniville
Posts: 24689
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Shamrock

Post by Jabroniville »

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SHAMROCK (Molly Fitzgerald)
Created By:
Mark Gruenwald, Bill Mantlo, Steven Grant & John Romita Jr.
First Appearance: Contest of Champions #1 (June 1982)
Role: Ethnic Stereotype (Begorrah!)
Country of Origin: Ireland
Group Affiliations: None
PL 8 (121)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Acrobatics 4 (+7)
Close Combat 2 (+8)
Deception 3 (+4)
Expertise (Schoolteacher) 4 (+4)
Expertise (Irish Nationalist) 7 (+7)
Expertise (Hairdresser) 8 (+8) -- Costs Half-Ranks
Insight 2 (+3)
Perception 4 (+5)
Stealth 2 (+5)

Advantages:
Ranged Attack 8

Powers:
"Possessed By the Victims of War"
Enhanced Advantages 10: Agile Feint, Defensive Roll, Evasion 2, Improved Defense, Luck 4, Seize Initiative [10]
"Force Attacks To Miss" Enhanced Dodge 4 & Parry 4 [8]

Luck Control 2 (Negate HPs, Force Re-Rolls) [6]

"Accidents" Damage 8 Feats: Indirect 4- Any Direction) (Extras: Ranged, Penetrating) (Diminished Range -2) (26) -- [32]
  • AE: "Avoidance" Deflect 12 (12)
  • AE: "Things Falling" Move Object 5 (Flaws: Uncontrolled) (5)
  • AE: "Tripping Burst" Affliction 8 (Strength or Agility; Hindered/Prone) (Extras: Area-30ft. Burst, Selective) (Flaws: Instant Recovery, Limited Degree) (8)
  • AE: "Tripping" Affliction 8 (Strength or Agility; Hindered/Prone) (Extras: Ranged, Selective) (Flaws: Instant Recovery, Limited Degree) (8)
  • AE: "Falling Onto Soft Things" Movement 1 (Slow Fall) (2)
  • AE: "Animal Aid" Summon 7 (Extras: Active, Broad Type +2) (Flaws: Limited to Local Fauna, Limited to 20 foot Control) (21)
Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Accidents +8 Perception (+8 Perception Damage, DC 23)
Trips +8 Area (+8 Area or Ranged Affliction, DC 18)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +12 (DC 22), Toughness +2, Fortitude +5, Will +4

Complications:
Motivation (Ireland)- Molly is a devout defender of her land, rejecting terrorism and violence.

Total: Abilities: 28 / Skills: 32--16 / Advantages: 8 / Powers: 56 / Defenses: 13 (121)

-Just in case you thought Banshee wasn't enough of an Irish stereotype, here's SHAMROCK! Possessed by the spirits of those lost in war, she gains good luck for herself, but bad luck for those who oppose her. Wanna guess who quick it took her to say "Begorrah"? Wearing one of the worst superhero uniforms ever (a big green unitard that covered her face and hair, with some clovers on it), she popped up in Contest of Champsions, and was immediately annoying by joking about, having all the other characters around face infinite pratfalls (Captain America got attacked by an anaconda, etc.), and grabbing the "Sphere of Whatever" that was the point of the contest. She pretty much vanished into Marvel Limbo at that point, showing up in minor runs of minor books, eventually being set up in a variety of low-tier books as a retired hero (she lost her powers and became a HAIRDRESSER, but has had another career change afterwards).

-A Marvel Comics Presents story finally gave her an origin story- her father, who fancied himself a "freedom fighter" (translation: IRA terrorist), had begged the heavens for his son to develop the powers to "Strike down his enemies!", but it was Molly who got powers instead. Ultimately, she retired from super-heroics (having only appeared in the backdrop in Rom and Hulk since then) to become a schoolteacher, returning home when she found out her brother had been killed. Shockingly, then her OWN FATHER drugged her and gave her to Arnim Zola, who hoped to discover the secret of her powers! But the spirits within her destroyed Zola's machines, and she defeated him with a coolant pipe. Her father then attempted to kill her for not following his violent path, but the gun exploded, killing him. Three years later, she popped up in Alpha Flight, resisting the mind control of Brain Drain casually.

-1997's Excalibur revealed that, after slipping and breaking her foot, she was convinced her "luck had run out" and retired to become a hairdresser (only her real name was used, with the letters page testing readers to guess her identity). Shockingly and amazingly, THIS ACTUALLY STUCK, as this one-off story from a nobody writer (Ben Raab?) resulted in Shamrock being the "Superhero Hairdresser" in books from 2007 & 2010. Three years later, The Fearless Defenders instead used her as a pub owner (that's a total stereotype, lol), which has also stuck around for years, showing up in Uncanny Avengers. So I'm a bit fascinated at how these random things have stood the test of time when nearly every change writers make to characters gets forgotten by the next guy.

-Shamrock has an odd power-set, which I mostly took from Roulette of The Hellions- she can Trip people, avoid attacks at high levels (Deflect and/or Parry & Dodge), use Luck Control, Slow her falls, have "Accidents" befall others (Indirect 4- allowing damage to occur from trees falling behind characters and the like), etc. Her Damage effect is Ranged & Penetrating, but is also limited to 25 feet away- that's how far the poltergeists from her body can move. There's also the unique ability to cause animals to attack the heroes- OK, this only got used once, but what the hell, right? Might as well use it- it caused an Anaconda to attack Cap briefly, but it went away once Shamrock ran far enough away that it was outside her "realm of influence".
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Goldar
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Police Academy! Scorcher! Banshee! Siryn!)

Post by Goldar »

Is Shamrock's Str, Agil and Sta her depowered values? I thought when empowered, besides her Luck Aura, Shamrock was quite strong and nimble, sort of like Shanna level?
Last edited by Goldar on Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Police Academy! Scorcher! Banshee! Siryn!)

Post by Goldar »

Speaking of The Strangers, er, strange captives, are you going to show Futurist and Alpha the Ultimate Mutant in his ultimate form? They looked and dressed very similarly if I remember correctly. Has any connection been made between the 2? Any recent appearances of either?
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Police Academy! Scorcher! Banshee! Siryn!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Goldar wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:43 am Is Shamrock's Str, Agil and Sta her depowered values? I thought when empowered, besides her Luck Aura, Shamrock was quite strong and nimble, sort of like Shanna level?
She never struck me as that capable- she's quick, but mostly uses her powers to hamper anyone chasing her.
Goldar wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:46 am Speaking of The Strangers, er, strange captives, are you going to show Futurist and Alpha the Ultimate Mutant in his ultimate form? They looked and dressed very similarly if I remember correctly. Has any connection been made between the 2? Any recent appearances of either?
Neither has ever reappeared since their appearance in Quasar- though Gruenwald had them placed next to each other, apparently recognizing the visual similarity.
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The Vanisher

Post by Jabroniville »

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THE VANISHER (Telford Porter)
Created By:
Stan Lee & Jack Kirby
First Appearance: The X-Men #2 (Nov. 1963)
Role: Cowardly Villain
Group Affiliations: Factor Three, The Fallen Angels, The New Enforces, X-Force
PL 7 (167)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 4 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Athletics 2 (+3)
Deception 4 (+5)
Expertise (Criminal) 5 (+5)
Insight 2 (+3)
Perception 2 (+3)
Stealth 1 (+4)

Advantages:
Equipment 4 (Guns- Shoot Blast 6 or Sleep Gas 6- Fatigued/Exhausted/Asleep- Cloud Area), Evasion 2, Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
"Mutant Powers: Teleportation"
Teleport 20 (Feats: Change Velocity & Direction, Increased Mass 5) (Extras: Accurate, Easy, Extended) [107]

Offense:
Unarmed +4 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Guns +8 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Sleep Gas +6 Area (+6 Affliction, DC 16)
Initiative +0

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +5 (DC 15), Toughness +2, Fortitude +3, Will +4

Complications:
Responsibility (Coward)- The Vanisher's key stock in trade is to flee at a moment's notice, the second things get rough.

Total: Abilities: 32 / Skills: 16--8 / Advantages: 10 / Powers: 107 / Defenses: 10 (167)

-I can't tell what's more hilarious- that THIS LOSER was the second villain the X-Men ever faced, or that his name is literally TELFORD PORTER. Telford Porter the Teleporter! Really! In his very first appearance he was about to sell U.S. military secrets to the Soviets, and so Professor X brainwashed him into forgetting not only the plans, but his own powers (oh, SILVER AGE- Communism-bashing and immoral acts by supposed super-heroes all in one issue!). He later appears in Factor Three, a group of losers in the forgotten X-era who want to set of World War III. This group introduced Banshee to the team (they had forced him to join up), but he was still a loser- their boss ended up being an alien benig, not "The Mutant Master" at all.

-Subsequently, the Vanisher showed up from time to time in the '80s (fighting The Champions & The Fantastic Four before being a central character in Marvel's bizarre Fallen Angels title that really didn't do anything for any of its stars. He was depicted as a Fagin-like leader of runaway kids and pickpockets, but a gutless coward who fled at the first sight of danger. He isn't seen again until he's part of a group of villains targetting the FF in Acts of Vengeance. He's mind-controlled by Asylum in The New Warriors and joins The New Enforcers in Spider-Man, then much later is seen as a drug lord pushing Mutant Growth Hormone before being stopped by a small X-squad.

-Shockingly, this two-bit coward actually got the biggest friggin' push of his career in recent years, being forced to team up with the new X-Force (Elixir gave him an inoperable brain tumor to blackmail him into helping them). He's frequently injured and assaulted while acting as the team's "infiltration and extraction" agent, but Elixir DOES cure him of the tumor (but then reveals that he's deep into Stage 4 Syphilis). He is nonetheless targeted (along with many other Teleporters) by Bastion's agents (hoping to prevent the union of Hope Summers and the X-Men), and is thought gunned down. He is later revealed as a brainwashed member of The Marauders, then forced by the Juggernaut to lead him to the Gem of Cyttorak. In 2016, he was seen smuggling Vibranium out of Wakanda and was beaten by Kasper Cole- in the "House of X" stuff he was made Black King of the Hellfire Club by Emma Frost, but was killed by someone named Robert Callahan for some reason.

-So overall, the Vanisher is quite weird- a throwaway '60s villain never really given any kind of time (like, he was in the SECOND ISSUE then discarded because even the creators were like "yeah, whatever" about him), before suddenly getting tons of appearances post-2000, usually emphasizing his cowardice. "Team Teleporter" had been kind of a big X-Men thing off and on for decades (first Magik, then Gateway), and they had more than one by this point, but recurring use in X-Force really put a spotlight on him... and then they killed him off, lol. Repeatedly, now!

-A loser with no real combat ability, The Vanisher is primarily a thief and a coward, using his expensive, far-reaching Teleport ability to get in and out of places. He will disappear at the first sign of trouble.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Police Academy! Scorcher! Banshee! Siryn!)

Post by catsi563 »

everyone talks about Jean "what you think just because you killed me id actually die""grey but this guy has more ""deaths"" then most comic characters. its like he dies every appearance Vanishing only to reappear a bit later
Dr. Silverback has wryly observed that this is like trying to teach lolcats about Shakespeare

Showdown at the Litterbox

Catsi stories
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The Weird Sisters

Post by Jabroniville »

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THE WEIRD SISTERS (Beauty, Charm & Truth)
Created By:
Mark Gruenwald & Greg Capullo
First Appearance: Quasar #20 (March 1991)
Role: Minions of Maelstrom

-This trio of human females was for some reason imprisoned on the Stranger's Laboratory World and freed by Quasar- for whatever reason, they teamed up with Maelstrom in his mission to steal Quasar's Quantum Bands, but Moondragon defeated the three of them. Two issues later, they fought her again, but she defeated them solo. Four years later, they reappeared in Fantastic Four Unlimited trying to revive Maelstrom- they succeeded, but when he came back, he realized his own son Ransak was being used to power his resurrection- he thus allowed himself to fade out of sight.

-Curiously, their powers are not listed- they aren't that powerful, but appear to be able to project blade-hands or tendrils from their bodies.
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Slasher

Post by Jabroniville »

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SLASHER (aka Razorblade)
Created By:
Gerry Conway & George Tuska
First Appearance: Iron Man #41 (Sept. 1971)
Role: Jobber Villain
Group Affiliations: The Titanic Three, The Fangs
PL 7 (84)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Athletics 3 (+6)
Deception 3 (+4)
Expertise (Criminal) 3 (+3)
Intimidation 3 (+4)

Advantages:
Equipment 3 (Flechette Gun- Blast 4 Multiattack), Improved Critical (Slashing), Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
"Slasher Costume" (Flaws: Removable) [14]
Blade Aura 4 (Extras: Reaction +3) (12)
"Slashing" Strength-Damage +2 (2)
Protection 3 (3)
-- (17 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Slashing +8 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Bladed Costume +8 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Flechette Gun +8 (+4 Ranged Damage, DC 19)
Initiative +5

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +3 (+6 Costume), Fortitude +4, Will +3

Complications:
Motivation (Greed)

Total: Abilities: 48 / Skills: 12--6 / Advantages: 8 / Powers: 14 / Defenses: 8 (84)

-Slasher is a classic Jobber Villain, harassing the Avengers and then getting used by (who else?) Mark Gruenwald (what else?), joining other illustrious Jobbers to bug Cap's friends. And... that's it! That's his entire run! TWO COMICS!! He debuted as a random bankrobber in an Avengers issue (where the narration mistakenly calls him "Buzzsaw" once and nobody catches it)- he was robbing a bank the Avengers were at, and assumed that they were after him. So he found the Titanic Three (Crimson Dynamo, Titanium Man & Radioactive Man) and convinced them that the Avengers were wrongfully accusing him, setting off a big fight between the two super-teams. He actually got the drop on Mantis (STEVE ENGLEHART'S Mantis, no less!) because she was mourning Swordsman's death and wasn't ready for him to be so heavy, but he was KO'd by The Vision. When the Three saw diamonds scattering everywhere, they realized he was guilty of the theft and abandoned him.

-He reappeared a full NINETEEN YEARS LATER in Captain America, as Gru simply piled four useless, unused villains together as Viper's agents, "The Fangs" along with Heat-Wave, Slither & Bludgeon. The four were flying around on jetpacks and had guns, rescuing their boss from the Red Skull's agent. They then fought Cap, Silver Sable & BattleStar, Slasher (now renamed "Razorblade") being smashed between Cap & Star's shields, and sent into Bludgeon, where he stabbed him with his pointy-ass costume. The character has never reappeared almost thirty years later.

-Slasher is basically The Porcupine but silver. A PL 7 poke-y guy.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Police Academy! Scorcher! Banshee! Siryn!)

Post by Jabroniville »

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OKAY! So! Time to start the DC builds, featuring the JSA, JLA & All-Star Squadron! This will put the majority of the remaining big DC characters left onto Echoes!

HOWEVER, I feel I should re-state an old pet peeve of mine...
Corrective Courtney: This is a particularly common one on the internet- it's SO absolutely omnipresent amongst nerds that I once read that a "Star Trek" fanboard had actually BANNED the phrase "Actually," from starting any individual post because of the sheer amount of fans going "Actually, what happened was...". This also hit the TV Tropes website HARD, with CONSTANT fans correcting each other in the articles, despite the fact that you're supposed to WRITE YOUR CORRECTION INTO THE ORIGINAL, NOT COMMENT ON IT IN THE SAME PAGE. There's a kind of smart-assed smugness to it that irks me.

Essentially, Corrective Courtneys are those who LIVE to correct other peoples' posts & comments, usually to the point of being annoying. Hell, I once got a single-word post correcting my spelling. Now, I'm a bit of a grammar/spelling Nazi at times (I believe that prepositions are not for ending sentences with), but COME ON, REALLY? There is NO REASON to do stuff like this in posts, other than to prove that you have a deep-seated psychological urge to constantly be right. Nitpicky taking apart of things people have written is an INCREDIBLY annoying trait, and it's astonishing how many people lack the self-awareness of that.
This is relevant becauuuuuuuuuuse- I don't follow DC as constantly as Marvel. DC fans also notably have HORRENDOUS book-keeping online, to the point where determining proper power levels, histories and publications of characters is nigh-impossible. This means that things can be off, sometimes tremendously. Examples include my old builds of Queen Hippolyta & Big Barda, which I believe were off by a ways, and when I realized how powerful Geo-Force was in the DCA bio- as a guy on the street-level Outsiders, and one with a basic bio that just says "Super-strength, etc." on Wikipedia, I was left with no clue the guy could apparently lift thousands of tons or whatever.

And there are a handful of people on here who know DC's history much better than I do, which is good. What is NOT good is the same kind of smug or angry remarks about errors that will inevitably pop up. Correcting someone is fine; being an ass about it is not. So when you type out the word "Actually," PLEASE reread your sentence and consider whether or not you're coming off as a snob or a nitpicker. Also, try to at least say what you like or dislike about a character at the same time- if your post is JUST corrections, it's gonna come off a whole lot less polite.
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DC Overview

Post by Jabroniville »

THE DC UNIVERSE:


Marvel ruled and DC sucked.




I mean, why argue about it? This was simply the way it WAS. When you're a ten-year-old Jab living in 1991 Canada, and your friends are all way into comics and you want to be like them, and THEY'RE all into Marvel and not DC, why wouldn't you be, too? DC was awful. Its heroes all had silly names and goofy costumes, their villains sucked and too many of them had names that ended in "-o", and their history was super-confusing, and all of their stories were just DUMB. Except Batman- every Marvel Zombie still liked Batman- he felt more like a Marvel guy anyways. Marvel was vital, cool and rad. It's not like I didn't look into DC's stuff at ALL- comics were comics, right? I'd check out a book or two, or some DC Trading Cards (totes inferior to Marvel's, to be certain), just to see what was going on. I had a few "Three-Packs" of their stuff, and read 'em, if only to prove what I already knew- that Marvel was better.

This is called "Confirmation Bias", but I'll be damned if DC didn't go out of its way to prove my bias correct. The first Flash comic I ever read featured Wally talking to a man who actually called himself THE ELONGATED MAN, and they hung around with a gigantically-fat black guy named CHUNK. I already thought Aquaman was a stupid name and had a dumb costume, but HAHAHAHA OH MY GOD, there's actually an AQUALAD!!!?? He's on his very own DC card! With a goofy little afro and everything! And then I read a DC's Who's Who- J-K and discover that there's a ton MORE lame characters! Okay, so Kole looked great, and Judomaster seemed awesome. Kid Flash dressed way better than his mentor. Killer Moth seemed like a bad-ass villain. But Kanjar Ro? Kamandi looked awful. The Knights of the Galaxy? Kong the Untamed? THE KEY?? And imagine being ten years old and wondering why in the balls there was a Justice League and a Justice SOCIETY, and the latter one was full of old men! What the hell is THAT about? And Batman DIED? THEY DON'T EXPLAIN THIS IN THAT ISSUE AT ALL!! (so it turns out I'm responsible for the Crisis on Infinite Earths. blame me)

So you can imagine why growing up, I'd think that DC sucked ass. They looked sillier, had goofier names (and keep in mind this is BEFORE I was familiar with the Legion of Super-Heroes), and there were all these Earths that seemed way too complicated to figure out. Marvel had bitching heroes with claws and guns (I wasn't as into Wolverine as my friends- I wrote fanfics where he lost to Captain America school assignment that included a crossover with a Farley Mowatt story about Owls- but even I thought he was PRETTY cool). There was a sexy Asian Ninja Chick in a one-piece swimsuit with buttfloss, a Tiger-striped chick in a BIKINI, Captain America, Spider-Man, Colossus and all SORTS of cool stuff! Meanwhile, DC had like 18 characters with backstories more confusing than Kang the Conqueror's. I saw so many goofy characters with hilariously bad names, and while Marvel had its fair share of idiots, most of them were minor characters like the New Men or something- not major heroes' sidekicks or recurring JLA super-villains we were meant to take seriously. All the "something-O" names bothered me, too. Marvel had a few (Magneto, Mesmero, Mentallo... shit, these were all X-Men guys, weren't they?), but DC used that naming convention like it was the be-all, end-all of supervillainy: Amazo, Eclipso, Universo, Metallo, Titano, etc.

I would get out of comics around 1994 or so, growing bored with the stories (there was no watershed moment where I just quit- I just kinda lost interest right before Joe Madureira made his debut, and only kept up by flipping through comics at the local stands), and not really get back into them until 1999- it was only THEN, as a young adult, that I would finally actually read a good bit more DC stuff. And the stuff I read? Pretty well opened my eyes. Sure, DC's early '90s output was a pile of garbage. But this thing called The Dark Knight Returns? THAT was cool. Crisis on Infinite Earths? EPIC. And it turns out that Teen Titans in the '80s was just as good as X-Men was!

Matter of fact, though I had always preferred Marvel, and found DC's stuff better even once I got more objective in almost every era- the late '90s and early 2000s seemed straight-up a DC era. Grant Morrison's JLA and Geoff Johns' (and others') work on JSA was simply the best stuff being produced in the industry. It didn't last forever, but it was some GREAT stuff.

I will always prefer Marvel as a whole. But they both have their strong points.

Marvel's:
* Their characters feel more "real" (a good example I once read is that Marvel is "wouldn't it be awesome to have powers like these guys?" and DC is more "wouldn't it be awesome if people like this actually existed?"). DC's heroes were flawless paragons we were meant to live up to. Marvel's were... well, human. Immature, self-defeating, argumentative, and sometimes crazy. DC took years to come up with more well-rounded casts- many '60s books involving team-ups just seem like the same dude in a different costume talking to himself. And the heroes were real people with real problems- dealing with bad jobs, no money, sick relatives, etc. The audience connected with these people because they'd BEEN THERE. Who identifies with hot-shot pilot Hal Jordan the space cop with a billion powers?

* Their villains roster is insanely, INSANELY superior to DC's (the only thing keeping things anywhere near close is Batman's Rogues). A Marvel equivalent of the Secret Society of Super-Villains or Legion of Doom would conquer the entire planet in like three seconds- the only thing stopping them would be the villains' predilection for being evil masterminds- Doom, Mandarin, Ultron, Kang, etc. would never be able to get along. Their villains are more numerous and more well-rounded, often being fascinating characters in their own rights. DC struggles massively to the point where most of their big villains had to be reinvented almost completely in the modern era (Geoff Johns and his obsession with Rogues, Sinestro, Evil Corps. and Black Adam).

* Marvel had an iconic "Personality" to it, thanks to the energy Stan Lee brought to things as an idea guy, Editor In Chief, wacky persona, and more. The letters columns, editorials, and more were FUN. DC seemed static and boring compared to anything with Stan the Showman in it. This kept going even in the '70s with the LSD-using weirdo guys (Englehart, Starlin, etc.) writing weirdo books. DC's talent all seemed like old men in suits. Writers and artists describe going to DC with button-down guys in ties and dress shirts all studiously working on typewriters, then going to the Marvel offices and seeing guys swordfighting with rulers in the halls. Now THIS seemed like a creative place!

* Their books were often better, for longer- X-Men was good for way longer than Titans was.

* They have The Avengers, The X-Men, The Fantastic Four, Spider-Man and more- many of which were strong for decades at a time, whereas DC tended to piss around with almost all of their characters, giving them short runs of quality here and there. DC seems to have better events & stories, but Marvel has more great, long RUNS of books.

* Fewer "spin-off", Sidekick or excessive Legacy Characters- that kind of thing tends to make characters less "special" by giving them endless variants of people JUST LIKE THEM, with the same abilities. There are thousands of Green Lanterns, a dozen Superpeople, four-five Flashes, and so many guys with Kid Sidekicks (most of whom were drawn like they were eleven years old). Of course, this gap grows smaller with each passing year, as there are something like 50 Hulks (never mind all the villains with equivalent power-sets), five Thors, a few Spider-Men, etc.

* Less silliness with Retcons- despite the occasional snafu, Marvel only really had ONE CONTINUITY, while DC seemed to enjoy rebooting things and ignoring all the work that had come before- it left Marvel with way more "memorable old stories", because they STILL MATTERED, whereas DC would cut a swath through everything and nullify good characters and their stories.

* Greater, more memorable Jobbers. Even their worst guys are generally at least memorable (entire groups of losers like the Mutant Liberation Front or Dark Riders). Many went on to become great running gags, and others even turned into good characters. DC's Jobbers tend to just vanish.

* Less stupid names. Marvel only has a couple guys with goofy names ending in "-o", while DC has Mentallo, Metallo, Bizarro, Sinestro, Titano, etc. Flash's entire Rogues are guys with stupid names, and the Legion of Super-Heroes has so many poorly-named characters (MATTER-EATER LAD? Light Lass? Are they all Scottish or something?) that it's one of the hardest books to get new fans into. Marvel mostly got rid of their poorly-named guys in the Silver Age.

* Marvel has more luck with "new" characters (but only a bit more)- they can pop a newbie onto the X-Men or Avengers and have them be at least a little memorable. DC is generally stuck just making someone a Legacy Character, because everyone else will be forgotten about the second their creator leaves. Granted, Marvel struggles with this 90% of the time, TOO, but DC is hitting 100%.

* More characters I just CARE about- I care more about C-League Avengers than I ever have about Hal Jordan, Ray Palmer, Barry Allen or Wally West. Same goes for Aquaman and Wonder Woman- even SUPERMAN doesn't really interest me- I've never had much desire to watch his Animated Series, despite it being worked on by the creators of two of my OTHER favourite shows (Batman: TAS, Justice League). And when I did, it still didn't grab me.

* Fewer Apes and assorted goofy crap that makes comics look like they're for 12-year olds. Of course, that was when comics WERE for 12-year olds, but still. DC has a CITY OF GORILLAS, talking tigers, talking worms, and all kinds of juvenile, stilly stuff. Marvel has some of that, but in lower tiers (The Trapster, aka Paste-Pot Pete), or stuff that's there deliberately for laughs. uh, a lot of Daredevil stuff from the '60s is god-awful. But DC's guys were made of that stuff. note: Marvel eventually reversed course and embrassed silly shit to an extreme while DC got more up its own ass with seriousness.

* Marvel seemed to be less-aggressive with its pushing of loser characters, who don't sell a lot of books. The constant reboots of Wonder Woman, or attempts to put another Martian Manhunter, Atom or New Gods series frequently get embarassing for DC. Marvel is often even better at MAKING said "loser characters" popular again, often by sticking great Indie creators on a nothing guy like Iron Fist and making a hit out of him. Of course, then Marvel started getting just as bad, but with bottom-tier characters almost NOBODY likes and were never popular (most of DC's were at least at ONE TIME popular). "JUST ONE MORE CHANCE AND NADIA PYM WILL SELL, YOU GUYS! YOU'LL SEE!".

* Better movies. And getting better with time, while DC obviously struggles with anyone who isn't Batman (and his movies don't hold up nearly as well- "Batvoice", anyone?). And I wrote this BEFORE the Justice League movie came out, I think!

* As bad as Marvel was in the early '90s with the Image guys, DC was even worse. They were attempting to copycat Marvel... with even WORSE talent! At least Marvel had Jim Lee & Todd MacFarlane in there. I can defend those guys as legit talents with eye-popping art styles. DC had, like... "struggling 1980s artist desperately attempting to evoke the '90s style" and the Bloodlines characters, who came off as sad wannabes of Marvel's "Extreme" Iron Age losers (who were ALREADY terrible).

* NO REBOOTS! Marvel has, at worst, rewritten a backstory here or there. Even Secret Wars didn't do TOO much. With DC, they more or less revamped continuity in the 1950s, then again with the Crisis, and then again about 19 times in the past 20 years. If you were a Legion of Super-Heroes fan, you were FUCKED because your favorite book revamped itself in the early '90s, then again in the 2000s, meaning every book you'd read prior meant precisely dick. This completely ruined the book and kept any new fans from jumping on, because "It's never gonna matter". And then DC didn't pay attention to that and just kept revamping their continuity repeatedly in the 2000s until NO COMIC meant anything, and fans wouldn't jump on a series because "It's never gonna matter". All your favorite stories just snapped out like Thanos zapped 'em. With Marvel, almost every book you've ever read still "counts".

* Until about 2005, Marvel didn't have the explosion of unnecessary Legacy, Spin-Off & Sidekick characters that DC had. They started getting more in the '70s (Ms. Marvel, She-Hulk, Spider-Woman) with minor characters, then we got spin-off males in the '90s (Thunderstrike, U.S. Agent, War Machine), but for the most part, you didn't have "There are a half-dozen people in each guy's sphere of influence who are sidekicks, spin-offs and legacies". Marvel heroes felt more UNIQUE. When you read Spider-Man, you felt like you were reading about the only guy in the world like that. But then Marvel got worse and worse about this until there were five Caps, 18 "Evil Cap" knock-offs, and you had enough Spidey spin-offs to form an entire TEAM of heroes! But DC got so much shittier at the same time that Marvel still wins :).

* No "Nu52".

* Kitty Pryde is a Marvel character.

DC's:
* Their Golden Age is a cornucopia of great ideas and awesome characters. Marvel has basically exactly three good characters from that era, and only two are really worthwhile today (Namor & Cap). Everyone else would basically be #20 in quality if they were DC's Golden Age characters. It really makes the JSA stand out.

* Its characters are more iconic, making their Big Events seem more impressive. Elseworlds/Alternate Reality stories also work much better with this sentiment- it's not quite as impressive to see Spidey or Cap in these situations (Vampires, Communists, Evil, etc.) as it would be for iconic, world-defining types like Superman & Batman. DC seems to just flat-out have more "great stories" than Marvel does, in part because of this.

* This iconic nature makes Marvel seem like a bunch of jealous copycats with the endless Supermanalogues and knock-offs of assorted DC characters- Quasar, The Nova Corps, Moon Knight, The Sentry & The Blue Marvel all add up to make Marvel look like they REALLY want to be just like DC. Which is odd, because they've sold better for like forty years.

* Despite my complaints about the endless Spin-Off Characters diluting the core concepts of their heroes, the sidekicks and stuff give DC a much richer backlog of characters at times, often with an excuse to stick around. Each hero had his own little "World" of proper allies and successors, with a steady progression from Jay Garrick to Barry Allen to Wally West, and every character lasted YEARS. At Marvel, their second-tier heroes are often entirely forgettable.

* Their lack of adherence to continuity can occasionally spring out genre-defining classics that Marvel often can't, because they need to "fit". You can write Batman: The Long Halloween in 1998 or whatever and dump every Two-Face origin story ever in the garbage and it now "counts" and is the defining one. Marvel doesn't have the liberty to do that because of how their continuity works, and how respected Stan Lee (who wrote most of the early stuff) was.

* DC's books are less dependent upon cynicism... save the Bat-books, which are even MORE cynical than Marvel's stuff. So DC gets the best of both worlds.

* DC is often better at courting fresh talent, particularly from England. Marvel generally just picked young kids who were prone to immaturity or "sketchpad characters".

* DC still has Batman- the world's most popular superhero, and one of the defining, most well-rounded characters in history. I think about 35% of DC's entire line is based around this one character, which matches Marvel's use of The X-Men & Avengers- which are ENTIRE TEAMS.

* More "Tabula Rasa" characters- Marvel's assortment of Jobber Villains get used again and again, and always show up in background scenes- most are characterized enough that we get the gist of them easily. Most of DC's guys on this level often go DECADES without important appearances- this makes it much easier for writers to remake them a la Black Adam & Catman- throwing away their old characterization entirely and making a whole new, awesome guy. Marvel can't do this as easily with theirs- they're too well-established.

* Say what you will about Wonder Woman, but DC packs the most iconic and definitive female superhero of all time. And Supergirl is probably right behind her. WAY more top-tier, super-powerful women than Marvel has. I'd argue that Marvel has many more quality female characters than DC does, but they never bothered to push any for a constistent enough time, and certainly not as solo acts, leaving DC with the top four in all of comics (WW, Supergirl, Black Canary, Barbara Gordon)

* Their villains increased in quality with time- Geoff Johns worked hard to make Sinestro & Black Adam awesome. uhhhhhhhhh then he got too attracted to them and just made them overshadow the heroes in every book.

* Better TV Shows. JLU and Batman: The Animated Series are basically untouchable classics with only a few flaws. Nothing Marvel's done has come close (the best bet was Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, which isn't near that level to me).

* Cyclone is a DC character.

And really, after a point in the 1970s, both companies shared almost the exact same talent at varying points. So it's not like they were THAT different in the end.

Turns out DC didn't suck so bad, all in all.
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Ken
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Re: The Elders of the Universe

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:32 am Image
What is it with Marvel and their obsession with putting the adjective after the noun when they want someone to sound like a pompous wanker?
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Police Academy! Scorcher! Banshee! Siryn!)

Post by Jabroniville »

It makes it sound more mythical, in a way. But yeah, it makes them sound pompous. Which definitely fits guys like the Elders or the Heralds of Galactus (given they learned it from Galactus himself). All I recall of the top of my head is the Power Cosmic and the Power Primordial.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Police Academy! Scorcher! Banshee! Siryn!)

Post by Jabroniville »

And now, I start posting the JSA & All-Star Squadron, mostly side-by-side as it's a general "DC in the Golden Age" deal... but also the successor characters of the JSA members.

Characters I've already built include Alan Scott, Obsidian & Jade (for my Green Lantern set), Wally West & Bart Allen (for the Titans set), Wonder Woman & Hippolyta (for the Wonder Woman set) and a handful of others. I'm handling Superman as a separate thing to post later, so those guys will wait a bit. I wanted to post his builds all at once to include things like Lois, Luthor & the New Gods. I mean, this set will be BIG ENOUGH, ya know?
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