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Jabroniville
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The Justice Society of America

Post by Jabroniville »

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THE JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA:

-For years, DC's Golden Age was phenomenally-better than everyone else's. Timely (precursor to Marvel) really only had three heroes worth mentioning- Captain America, Namor the Sub-Mariner and The Human Torch. DC had a TON of good guys. Superman and Batman were the #1 and #2 characters in comics. National Comics (Superman, Batman, Hour-Man, Dr. Mid-Nite, etc.) was allied with All-American Comics, which featured big names like Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, The Flash, Hawkman and The Atom- they were editorially-independent, but shared characters on books like The Justice Society of America. By 1946 (near the end of the Golden Age), the two would merge for real, though National was going by "DC Comics" colloquially since before then.

The JSA first debuted in All-Star Comics #3 in Winter 1940, by Gardner Fox & artist Sheldon Mayer. It combined Dr. Fate, Hour-Man, The Spectre, The Sandman, The Atom, The Flash, Green Lantern & Hawkman- the biggest heroes from both National & All-American who as yet didn't have their own solo books. Though all of these characters would be used for decades, not all of them were popular- some, like Hour-Man, would be trounced from the book (and comics) for YEARS, before a resurgence in the Silver Age would retroactively make all of them long-serving members! The Flash & GL each left the book when they got their own solo series as well- the JSA book seemed to be more of an advertisement for the books featuring solo strips of lesser-knowns like Dr. Fate & The Atom.

This led to The Flash leaving the book after THE THIRD STORY, being replaced by Johnny Thunder- GL would follow. Batman & Superman, already HAVING their own books, were "honorary" members. Hawkman is the only member to appear in every single JSA adventure in the original run- The Atom missed two issues. Many issues were of the "Anthology" type, with the heroes describing their missions as if it was an Adventurer's Club-type of deal- Wonder Woman was, naturally, the secretary, and didn't see action most of the time- she showed up in #8.

A real-world schism developed between the two companies, however, leading to DC/National removing all their heroes from the book- Flash & GL soon rejoined to fill the roster. The Black Canary soon joined as well, but the book wouldn't see the end of the 1940s, and nor would most of its characters. By the 1950s, only a handful of superhero books remained, and most of the industry was devoted to Westerns, Romance, Crime & War Books. Even Timely's "Big Three" didn't survive, failing in '50s pushes with new stories. Only Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman (a back-up in Supes' stuff) and oddly Green Arrow would last the full duration until the start of the Silver Age.

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THE SILVER AGE:

-In the Silver Age, Gardner Fox was tapped to create a NEW Justice Society, based around their newer heroes- the Age having began with the introduction of Barry Allen as a new Flash. This Justice "League" (since there was a National & American League in Baseball) would in fact MEET the old Society, it being revealed that they lived on alternate Earths (a Sci-Fi concept now transplanted to comics). The new heroes met the older ones, and it turned out that at some random point, the '50s Batman & Superman and '60s Batman & Superman "split off", because there were older versions living on Earth-2 (yes, they really made the JSA live on one they called "Earth-2", even though they came first).

These crossovers were phenomenally-successful, and would continue year after year. The JSA wouldn't get their own book, but we'd see bits and pieces of their stories continue over the years- In the main Batman book, the Golden Age Batman would retire, then marry Catwoman. Black Canary would leave Earth-2 after the death of her husband, and join the JLA. Mr. Terrific, one of the most disposable JSA members (in the world's most hideous costume) would be killed by an old enemy. The characters of Quality Comics- The Freedom Fighters, would be added in to things, getting their OWN Earth (one in which the Nazis won World War II!). The Seven Soldiers of Victory (Green Arrow's world) was added as well! The JSA members would appear middle-aged, which made sense- they were from the *1940s*, so should be about 20 years older by the mid-'60s, right? Of course, this would cause a few issues as time went on.

The JSA finally get their own book in 1976, and it lasted a few years- it would introduce Power Girl (the Supergirl of Earth-2) and The Huntress, and kill the Golden Age Batman. Roy Thomas would explain that the JSA were "kept young" by some shadow energy absorbed from Ian Karkull. Thomas would write The All-Star Squadron, a neat look at World War II through the eyes of the Golden Age Heroes. But WOW, would he show his work and sense of Continuity Porn- not just showing his beloved JSA, he would use the combined heroes of the ENTIRE GOLDEN AGE legally-owned by DC Comics. He'd bring ancient, unused characters out of the woodwork, making something of do-nothings like Johnny Quick & Liberty Belle in particular, and retconning in additional characters like the Tarantula, the female Firebrand and the black Amazing Man.

Thomas would also create Infinity Inc., a book featuring kids related to the JSA, who for some reason hadn't bred for the most part (it seems weird looking back, but at the time the writers just HADN'T THOUGHT OF having all these heroes have children in their Cross-Overs- there wasn't time! Most super-heroes didn't HAVE kids!), despite most of them getting married at some point (there's really little reason why The Atom couldn't have just been Nuklon's dad instead of the weird workaround of "he was a godfather since he cared for the daughter of a supervillain he'd once fought"). It was a pretty decent Teen Hero book, as these disparate kids sort of did a "Teen Titans" thing, but some goofy costume choices and codenames (Northwind, Silver Scarab, Nuklon and his infamous mohawk) would date the book pretty horribly. The team was Nuklon (godson of The Atom), Northwind (godson of Hawkman), Jade & Obsidian (unknown children of Alan Scott), Silver Scarab (Hawkman & Hawkgirl's son), Fury (Wonder Woman & Steve Trevor's daughter), Brainwave Jr. (the son of a JSA villain), Power Girl & Huntress briefly, and was led by The Star-Spangled Kid, soon becoming Skyman. It'd give a young Todd MacFarlane his first big job in comics- "Todd MacFarlane- remember that name" came the Editor's comments with one issue. We'd get a new, female Wildcat and Dr. Mid-Nite, a new Hourman, and more. A few characters would become big names, too!

During this time, The Crisis on Infinite Earths was written, and that... kind of changed things.

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POST-CRISIS:

The Crisis was a HUGE change for DC Comics- Marv Wolfman wanted to "streamline" DC continuity, making it so there was only one Earth. And so the JSA was shunted off Earth-2 and simply made part of the Golden Age history of the MAIN world... meaning some stuff had to happen. I mean, at this time there were two Supermen, two Batmen, two Robins, and more. Some could be explained as guys taking the names of their mentors (The Flash & Green Lantern were totally different guys), but others were a lot trickier. And so The Crisis saw a TON of JSAers get hurt- Robin and The Huntress were killed, and Hawkman was merely "badly injured" just in case they needed to kill him off. Black Canary got a confusing-ass retcon to explain her (why they didn't just use "Time Travel" is beyond me), then the old one died. Even the Golden Age Green Arrow was killed since he was also named Oliver Queen.

Roy Thomas would be REALLY stymied by all of this- it all but ruined his All-Star Squadron, and the book disappeared. Infinity Inc. carried on, simply ignoring a lof of the JSA's stuff until they could hammer out the continuity. In the meantime, he wrote The Young All-Stars, featuring close-ish analogues of the now-extinct JSA members to "explain" his beloved old stories still happening the way they had in the Golden Age- you simply had Iron Munro doing the things Superman was doing- same with Flying Fox/Batman and Fury/Wonder Woman!

But it still wasn't to be- soon, all of Thomas' books would be cancelled, and the JSA was permanently written-out in ham-handed fashion, as they got stuck in Limbo, fighting Ragnarok for years. DC just simply didn't want to deal with the continuity headaches their existence would bring on.

The DC Universe as a whole would get all fusterclucky, proving decisively that REBOOTS NEVER WORK- this reboot had the ENTIRETY OF DC BEHIND IT, not to mention some of the greatest writers and artists in comics at the time (Perez, Wolfman, Byrne, etc.), and they STILL managed to utterly-bugger half their line. Wonder Girl & The Legion of Super-Heroes had their origins shattered, The Hawks got too convoluted to write properly, and the entire JSA was all but ruined for YEARS while they tried to figure things out. This, of course, wouldn't stop DC from trying the same thing decades later. And God I hope Marvel doesn't try this, too.

There was a short-lived revival of the JSA in 1991, which was decently-popular, but it would be killed by Mike Carlin- an Editor who hated the concept of "old men superheroes" (according to the writer), resulting in much fan hatred (especially in the nascent computer-based fandom). The book's only real legacy is the creation of Jesse Quick. 1994 would see DC Editorial strike ANOTHER blow at the heart of the time, callously wiping out The Atom, Dr. Mid-Nite & Hourman in one fell swoop, then writing out Hawkman & Hawkgirl (speaking of continuity issues...). Dr. Fate would soon die of old age, and friggin' Green Lantern had to change his name to Sentinel. The Golden Age Wonder Woman was now decided to be WW's MOM, Hippolyta, having gone back in time and joined the JSA, rewriting the retcon of Miss America having joined the team in her stead (and basically ignoring how Fury was supposed to be that).

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THE MODERN AGE:

-The JSA post-1999 would be oddly its best, at one point being openly considered the best comic book on the market- James Robinson had a critically-acclaimed run on Starman, which showed a lot of Golden Agers (the few that survived now), though I find the book a good bit overrated and smarmy- it's a good critique of comic book fans in general (Jack Knight is a HUGE hipster and kitsch-fan, and a big of a self-righteous, snobbish douchebag that I find to be EXTRAORDINARILY unlikeable... like I said, a good critique). But the REAL meat came when a popular arc in Morrison's Justice League became the send-off point to an all-new JSA series.

Written by screenwriter David Goyer and James Robinson, and soon adding Geoff Johns to the festitivities, the JSA book would revive the members currently left alive, basing the new team around Alan Scott, Jay Garrick & Ted "Wildcat" Grant as the core Golden Agers, alongside the new team leader- Sandy the Golden Boy was now Sand, a big bad-ass OUT OF NOWHERE- he was basically an all-new character with the name of the old one, but was pretty cool- alas, he would soon fade away once Johns got full creative control (he evidently doesn't care for the character). New legacies would show up, Jakeem Thunder, Stargirl, Atom-Smasher (a renamed Nuklon- a legacy from Infinity Inc.). An all-new Doctor Fate would be the former Silver Scarab. Jack Knight would be around for a bit. Black Canary and Hippolyta stuck around for a few arcs, too. New versions of Dr. Mid-Nite & Mr. Terrific would become big names under Johns (they'd been created earlier), and soon Captain Marvel villain BLACK ADAM would be stuck on the team out of nowhere.

Captain Marvel himself would join alongside Power Girl & the third Hourman, giving us one of the larger superhero rosters around- Thankfully, most of them would be missing for at least an arc or two. This series... was FANTASTIC. Absolutely one of my favourite books to re-read. It gives lip service to the history of comic books, but is largely looking forward, showing new heroes learning the ropes alongside some Wild Old Mentor-figures. Like JLA, the series features huge crisis after huge crisis- the world is always at stake, powerful villains threaten everything, etc. Alan Scott has to fight his evil son Obsidian, the team is kidnapped by Roulette and forced to fight each other, they war with Kobra, all of reality is altered by The Ultra-Humanite (wielding the power of The Thunderbolt), etc. It is HUGE, with world-altering stakes, yet always gives us a personal touch with the heroes- something that is often lost in "Big Event Comics" (looking at you, Hickman...).

Several heroes get great Character Arcs- Stargirl grows from a bratty little teen into one of the more moral and decent heroes- the heart of the team. Black Adam starts evil, gets his old "heroic" personality back and becomes a bad-ass imperious jerk, but soon gets more and more angry until he quits the team and becomes the murderous ruler of an entire nation. Atom-Smasher starts as an adoring, honoring fanboy of the elders, but gets more aggressive as his mother is killed in a terrorist attack, acting like an asshole around Black Adam (who he doesn't believe can reform). Ultimately, he quits the team in a rage, and becomes a killer, twisted by Adam's own words. He & Stargirl have an ongoing thing throughout the series- a fascinating relationship that seems sibling-like at first, turns to Star openly pining for him (they don't SAY it, though- meaning a lot of fans missed it), and then a big "Will They, Won't They?" thing. Marvel and Star have their OWN thing- an adorable Puppy Love Romance. Obisidian would go off the deep end, but eventually reform as well. Mr. Terrific would come into his own as one of DC's top heroes, though it didn't last.

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THE JSA REBOOT- THEN DISASTER STRIKES:
-The series would get a restart, written by a solo Johns and drawn by the amazing Dale Eaglesham- it'd get even more obsessed with Legacies, as a whole NEW generation of kids would debut- Judomaster II, Citizen Steel, Wildcat III, Mr. America II & III, and Lightning would be joined by Damage ('90s hero), Magog (a hero from Kingdom Come, in co-operation with painter Alex Ross) and the greatest character in the history of comics- Cyclone. Then the Superman of Kingdom Come would show up, giving us a long-running arc featuring Magog doing stuff.

The series had an AMAZING start, and even better art, but holy God did they screw up a lot. See, sticking fifty members on the squad basically didn't allow for ANY serious characterization, and potentially-interesting charcters were more or less dropped off the face of the Earth with no room to emote. People like Lightning, Steel & Mr. America did nothing, to the point where you would forget they even existed, and My Beloved Cyclone, while popular among most of the writers and creators (Eaglesham and later writer Matt Sturges ADORED her), wouldn't get that much to do, either. Even some of the earlier big names faltered and did little- Hourman & Liberty Belle were reduced to fawning over each other and acting parental towards a grumpy, scarred-up Damage.

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Johns would leave the book after a huge, career-defining run, and move on to continue altering the entirety of the DC Universe, for better or worse. The two Fables writers, Bill Willingham & Matthew Sturges, took over the series, soon splitting it off into two books, ironically capitalizing on its success RIGHT WHEN IT GOT WORSE. Willingham got all the "Boring Old Guys" on his team and failed to do anything interesting (I couldn't even tell you a single arc), while Sturges got the exciting young ones, but messed around a bit too much, focused on stupid newbie Magog WAY too much, and had some AWFUL art with J.H. Williams III drawing pupil-less eyes and exaggerated figures. JSA All-Stars would only last 18 issues, and the main book only lasted a little longer, being cancelled just as DC rebooted their entire universe.

Aaaaaaaaaaand so DC rebooted everything and invented a new continuity, throwing the JSA in the garbage and pretty well removing them from all comics. And the infamous "DC New 52" began, trying to restart old characters while trying to act like we already knew their histories. The original JSA members were in a book called Earth Two that had them all just as alternate-universe types with different origins, but it went nowhere and was kinda shoved into the Huntress & Power Girl book. Stargirl herself was brought back in another Justice League-type book, but even with Johns himself writing it went nowhere- she was introduced more or less the way she'd left off in comics, without any of her prior characterization or "Character Arc". A regular "NuDCU" problem, it merely ASSUMED we knew all the prior character growth, forgetting that as a new continuity, it'd have to show us that all over again. She was just a new, peppy superheroine with no edge to her.

Ultimately, the JSA book was a huge deal, and was one of the biggest comic books in the world from 1999-2009 or so. A hell of a run considering the characters has arguably peaked during the *1940s*. It was the perfect use of a bunch of old-school heroes, and took massive advantage of the fact that DC had scores of great Golden Age acts- something Marvel couldn't match.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Mar 21, 2022 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Banshee

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:19 am Image
Apparently grotesque distortions of the orbicularis oris are part of his mutation....
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Re: The Justice Society of America

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:10 am THE JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA:

A real-world schism developed between the two companies, however, leading to DC/National removing all their heroes from the book- Flash & GL soon rejoined to fill the roster. The Black Canary soon joined as well, but the book wouldn't see the end of the 1940s, and nor would most of its characters. By the 1950s, only a handful of superhero books remained, and most of the industry was devoted to Westerns, Romance, Crime & War Books. Even Timely's "Big Three" didn't survive, failing in '50s pushes with new stories.[/b]
The schism was always there. It just worsened. "Soon" is about 3 years. The National characters disappeared after All-Star #23, Flash and GL rejoined in #24 (March 1945). Black Canary first appeared with the Society in #38, the January 1948 issue. She formally joined in #41, July 1948. The final issue of All-Star before it became All-Star Western was #57, March 1951. The book did survive past the end of the 1940s; not much, but it survived into the early 1950s. Though Flash Comics (home of Flash, Hawkman, Atom [he jumped books in '46], and Black Canary) was canceled in 1949 and All-American Comics (GL and Dr. Mid-Nite) became All-American Western in 1948, in '50 and '51 the only place to find most of the JSA members was in All-Star.
Jabroniville wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:10 am Only Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman (a back-up in Supes' stuff) and oddly Green Arrow (another company's hero) would last the full duration until the start of the Silver Age.
What other company????

Green Arrow and Aquaman both debuted in More Fun Comics #73. (For reference, the Spectre debuted in #52 of More Fun Comics, Doctor Fate debuted in #55, and Johnny Quick debuted in #71). He was a National Comics creation through and through. Like Aquaman, he survived the golden age by being Adventure Comics behind Superboy, and World's Finest. He wasn't a part of All-American Publications (like Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Atom, Johnny Quick, Doctor Mid-Nite, Sargon the Sorcerer, and Black Canary, until National finally completely took over AA). He wasn't a part of Fawcett (the Marvel Family and friends, who wouldn't begin being a part of DC until the 1970s). He wasn't a part of Quality Comics (Uncle Sam, Plastic Man, Blackhawks, pre-Fox Phantom Lady, Doll Man, Ray, etc.)

I suppose you could be referring to the fact that at the beginning Detective Comics, Inc. and National Allied Publications were legally two separate companies. Detective Comics and Adventure Comics were technically owned by Detective Comics, Inc. and Action and More Fun by National Allied Publications. But those two were more incestuous than their relationship with All-American Publications.
Last edited by Ken on Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Police Academy! Banshee! Siryn! The JSA!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Yeah I mixed Green Arrow up with someone else back in the day and didn't catch that one. I think way back when I first wrote that I thought the Seven Soldiers were from another company, but now I know the Star-Spangled Kid was sharing a book with Robin for a bunch of years.

PS I don't feel that correction required being bolded and underlined.
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Re: Banshee

Post by Sidious »

Jabroniville wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:19 am Image
So as an aside to Banshee...
Recently in the Krakoa era of X-men, Moira has turned against mutants and is being hunted by them.
So she turns to her old flame Banshee... and kills him. Skinning him so she can wear his flesh and get through one of the Gates.

Don't worry, he'll be back soon enough.

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Last edited by Sidious on Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Police Academy! Banshee! Siryn! The JSA!)

Post by drkrash »

X-Men can't get Back to Basics soon enough. I haven't liked a single thing Hickman did with the X-Men. Not one. I just don't know how they come back from this.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Police Academy! Banshee! Siryn! The JSA!)

Post by M4C8 »

drkrash wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:08 pm X-Men can't get Back to Basics soon enough. I haven't liked a single thing Hickman did with the X-Men. Not one. I just don't know how they come back from this.
Agreed, they haven't been quite right for a long time now in their views and behaviour, especially so since the cult of mutant supremacy that is Krakoa.
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Re: Banshee

Post by greycrusader »

Sidious wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:50 am
Jabroniville wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:19 am Image
So as an aside to Banshee...
Recently in the Krakoa era of X-men, Moira has turned against mutants and is being hunted by them.
So she turns to her old flame Banshee... and kills him. Skinning him so she can wear his flesh and get through one of the Gates.

Don't worry, he'll be back soon enough.

Image
Oh, for Cripes’ Sake…does Marvel not have editors any more? Or are the executives still committed to burying the characters for some reason?

I’m just guessing this whole Krakoa/immortal mutant nation thing will be explained as taking place in an alternate reality at some point.

All my best.
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Re: Banshee

Post by Ares »

greycrusader wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:25 pm
Sidious wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:50 am So as an aside to Banshee...
Recently in the Krakoa era of X-men, Moira has turned against mutants and is being hunted by them.
So she turns to her old flame Banshee... and kills him. Skinning him so she can wear his flesh and get through one of the Gates.

Don't worry, he'll be back soon enough.
Oh, for Cripes’ Sake…does Marvel not have editors any more? Or are the executives still committed to burying the characters for some reason?

I’m just guessing this whole Krakoa/immortal mutant nation thing will be explained as taking place in an alternate reality at some point.

All my best.
drkrash wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:08 pm X-Men can't get Back to Basics soon enough. I haven't liked a single thing Hickman did with the X-Men. Not one. I just don't know how they come back from this.
M4C8 wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:01 pm Agreed, they haven't been quite right for a long time now in their views and behaviour, especially so since the cult of mutant supremacy that is Krakoa.
So much this.

It's really sad how much of a parody the X-Men have become of themselves, and the writers don't seem to have any self-awareness.

Before the concept was that the X-Men were fighting so hard for human/mutant co-existence, that they did their best to police evil mutants to keep them from forever tainting humanity's perception of mutants, but that they also went on fun adventures to outer space and other dimensions.

Yet in a time when tolerance for people of different backgrounds is basically not only promoted, but demanded, the X-Men have become essentially racial segregationists, isolationists and supremacists. They literally had a group of humans who admired the X-Men so much that, when they gained access to alien technology that let them become superheroes, they based their personas off of the X-Men. Yet the only person on the team allowed to visit their island is the one actual mutant of said group. Likewise, the second Franklin Richards lost his powers, Professor X and Magneto didn't want anything to do with him.

Combine that with how the eternal resurrections process takes away all stakes from the X-Men, how the mutants now spend most of their time just mulling around an island doing nothing, how they threaten, bully and blackmail world governments into doing what they want, and the X-Men have basically become the exact opposite of Xavier's dream, and only a hairsbreadth away from Magneto's.

I really, really hope that it's revealed that this Moira is some kind of evil dimension hopper (as opposed to being a constantly reincarnating mutant herself, which is dumb) and for some reason loves to screw with the X-Men, and we'll find the actual X-Men all in some kind of Pod People plant pods in Krakoa, including our Moira.

I mean, it's an effective way to get back to the status quo. The X-Men will be feared and hated for all of the crazy shit they've done the last several years, and will have to legitimately work to earn back the trust of everyone. At the same time, it would be a good way to bring some people back, get things to something resembling a status quo, etc.
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Golden Age Comic Book Companies

Post by Jabroniville »

THE ROSTER OF GOLDEN AGE COMIC BOOK COMPANIES:

* A true roster of the major companies of the time is tricky given how many were fly-by-night types, but these are the big names. Note that four of the top five are now all DC Comics.

NATIONAL PUBLICATIONS:
-One of the early forms of DC- this one had Superman, Batman, Aquaman & Green Arrow. Eventually the company would colloquially be called "DC" after Batman's Detective Comics, and the name would stick officially. Co-owned by Irwin Donenfeld.

ALL-AMERICAN COMICS:
-The other half of DC, also co-owned by Donenfeld, along with Max Gaines. This one contained The Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman & Hawkman, among others. Both shared JSA characters, with All-American owning most of the rights. A split between the companies led to All-American using up all the roster spots on the JSA, returning Flash & GL to the book. In 1948, Max's half had been bought out and AA merged with National to form "DC Comics".

QUALITY COMICS:
-What's ended up now as a bunch of dead character concepts was actually a very successful company in the 1940s- a solid #4-5. They ran Plastic Man and the HUGELY successful Blackhawks, both of whom were made to last for years. Even Doll Man was bigger than you'd think. Most of what they were eventually known for were the Freedom Fighters (Uncle Sam, "good girl art" Phantom Lady, The Human Bomb, and others), which DC tried to run with in the 1970s.

Quality had some of the biggest successes of the time, but died out in 1948- DC quickly bought them up and published Blackhawk for YEARS longer. All the super-heroes were combined together into the Freedom Fighters of "Earth-X", a world where the Nazis won World War II. That book was quickly cancelled and the characters were largely dumped repeatedly, eventually being killed off gruesomely in Infinite Crisis's opening moments.

FAWCETT COMICS:
-Home of the widely-popular Captain Marvel and his Marvel Family. Lasted for years and years and were probably up their with National in terms of sales at one point, but DC wouldn't stop suing them over similarities between Superman & Captain Marvel. In 1953, with superhero comics flagging and DC still suing them, Fawcett went out of business. DC would later license their characters, and finally buy them outright in the 1970s. So what was once the #1-3 comic company in North America is now a footnote.

MLJ COMICS:
-Named for their three founders Morris Coyne, Louis Silberkleit and John Goldwater. Had the successful heroes The Shield and The Wizard along with scads of other minor acts here and there, but a little teen book named after Archie Andrews formed in The Shield's Pep Comics and rapidly became a sensation, soon taking over the entire line. By the 1950s, all the heroes were dead (to be reborn about seven or eight times through various companies), while MLJ itself simply became known as "Archie Comics", where they exist to this day. Albeit nowadays they don't release any big comics and only do Digests, their attempts to reboot the line having stalled out.

TIMELY COMICS:
-This one was a more minor company founded by skinflint Martin Goodman, a notorious penny-pincher who drove away guys like Joe Simon & Jack Kirby. They had pretty popular guys in the Sub-Mariner (almost a "Monster" title) and The Human Torch, but it was Captain America that became a huge smash and one of the most popular books of the era. But almost all their other characters were big failures- The Angel & Destroyer may be their next-highest-tier guys! Eventually they quit making superhero books after WWII ended and switched as Goodman kept latching onto popular ideas and declaring "We will now ONLY publish _____ titles!", with Timely soon becoming known for Romance books, Westerns, War Comics, and Monster books. Eventually Goodman's nephew Stan Lee would convince him to try superheroes again, and the company, eventually called Marvel Comics, would soon become the top comic book publisher, with characters that currently dominate all "Superhero" thought.

FOX FEATURES:
-Another minor company, with a popular strip about the Blue Beetle, but not much else. Charlton Comics in the 1960s would use the name for one of their own guys, and of course DC would soon own THAT.
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The Flash (Jay Garrick)

Post by Jabroniville »

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THE FLASH I (Jason Peter "Jay" Garrick)- Golden Age
Created By:
Gardner Fox & Harry Lampert
First Appearance: Flash Comics #1 (Jan. 1940)
Role: The Original Speedster
Group Affiliations: The Justice Society of America, The All-Star Squadron
PL 10 (195)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 8/10 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Athletics 7 (+9)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 3 (+11, +13 Speed Force)
Deception 3 (+7)
Expertise (Science) 4 (+8)
Insight 3 (+7)
Investigation 4 (+8)
Perception 3 (+7)
Persuasion 2 (+6)
Sleight of Hand 2 (+6)
Stealth 1 (+6)
Technology 4 (+8)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Agile Feint, Defensive Attack, Defensive Roll 3, Equipment (Cool Hat- Sometimes Refracts Light), Evasion, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Interpose, Move-By Action, Ranged Attack 2, Seize Initiative, Set-Up, Takedown 2, Teamwork

Powers:
"Access to the Speed Force"
Speed 18 (500,000 mph) [18]
Quickness 16 [16]
Enhanced Advantages 4: Enhanced Initiative 4 [4]
Enhanced Fighting 2 [4]
Immunity 1 (Friction Heat) [1]

"Speed Feats"
Movement 3 (Wall-Crawling 2, Water-Walking) (Flaws: Limited to While Running) [3]
"Knockdown Whirlwind" Affliction 10 (Dodge; Hindered/Prone) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Line) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Instant Recovery) Linked to Damage 6 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Line) (17) -- [22]
  • AE: "Move Debris" Move Object 8 (Extras: 30ft. Cylinder) (Flaws: Touch Range, Limited to Away) (8)
  • AE: "Rapid Attack" Strength-Damage +5 (Extras: Multiattack 8) (Inaccurate -1) (12)
  • AE: "Hyperfast Punch" Strength-Damage +7 (Inaccurate -1) (6)
  • AE: "Hit Everyone in Range" Strength-Damage +5 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2 for 8 ranks) (21)
  • AE: Deflect 12 (12)
Offense:
Unarmed +13 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Hyperfast Punch +11 (+9 Damage, DC 24)
Rapid Attack +11 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Hit Everyone +8 Area (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Whirlwinds +10 Area (+10 Affliction, DC 20)
Initiative +21

Defenses:
Dodge +14 (DC 24), Parry +14 (DC 24), Toughness +3 (+6 D.Roll), Fortitude +6, Will +8

Complications:
Relationship (Joan)- Jay & Joan have been married for decades- they both retain their health thanks to Ian Karkull's Shadow Energies.
Responsibility (The Next Generation)- Jay, having lost his only son as an infant, looks upon the next generation of heroes like a father. He takes especially good care of the youngest ones- impressionable rebels like Impulse & Jakeem Thunder, and the virginal Courtney Whitmore (his side hobby is chasing away any older man who pays her too much attention).
Responsibility (Polite)- Jay is unfailingly polite. Generally speaking, if JAY gets upset with you, you're REALLY being an ass.

Total: Abilities: 68 / Skills: 38--19 / Advantages: 20 / Powers: 68 / Defenses: 20 (195)

---

THE FLASH I (Jason Peter "Jay" Garrick)- Modern Day
Created By:
Gardner Fox & Harry Lampert
First Appearance: Flash Comics #1 (Jan. 1940)
Role: The Original Speedster
Group Affiliations: The Justice Society of America, The All-Star Squadron
PL 11 (217)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 8/10 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Athletics 7 (+9)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 3 (+11, +13 Speed Force)
Deception 3 (+7)
Expertise (Science) 4 (+8)
Insight 3 (+7)
Investigation 4 (+8)
Perception 3 (+7)
Persuasion 2 (+6)
Ranged Combat (Thrown Objects) 4 (+10)
Sleight of Hand 2 (+6)
Stealth 1 (+6)
Technology 4 (+8)
Vehicles 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Agile Feint, Defensive Attack, Defensive Roll 4, Equipment (Cool Hat- Sometimes Refracts Light), Evasion, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Inspire, Interpose, Move-By Action, Ranged Attack 2, Redirect, Seize Initiative, Set-Up, Takedown 2, Teamwork

Powers:
"Access to the Speed Force"
Speed 19 (1,000,000 mph) [19]
Quickness 16 [16]
Enhanced Advantages 4: Enhanced Initiative 4 [4]
Enhanced Fighting 2 [4]
Immunity 1 (Friction Heat) [1]
"Speed Force/Shadow Energy" Immunity 1 (Aging) [1]

"Speed Feats"
Movement 3 (Wall-Crawling 2, Water-Walking) (Flaws: Limited to While Running) [3]
"Knockdown Whirlwind" Affliction 11 (Dodge; Hindered/Prone) (Extras: Area- 60ft. Line +2) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Instant Recovery) Linked to Damage 6 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Line +2) (27) -- [34]
  • AE: "Suffocating Whirlwind" Affliction 11 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Area- 30ft. Cylinder) (22)
  • AE: "Move Debris" Move Object 11 (Extras: 60ft. Cylindar +2) (Flaws: Touch Range) (22)
  • AE: "Rapid Attack" Strength-Damage +5 (Extras: Multiattack 8) (13)
  • AE: "Hyperfast Punch" Strength-Damage +7 (7)
  • AE: "Hit Everyone in Range" Strength-Damage +5 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst +2 for 8 ranks) (21)
  • AE: "Throw Debris" Blast 8 (Extras: Multiattack) (Quirks: Requires Debris -1) (23)
  • AE: Deflect 12 (12)
Offense:
Unarmed +13 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Hyperfast Punch +13 (+9 Damage, DC 24)
Rapid Attack +13 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Hit Everyone +8 Area (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Throw Debris +10 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Whirlwinds +11 Area (+11 Affliction, DC 21)
Initiative +21

Defenses:
Dodge +15 (DC 25), Parry +15 (DC 25), Toughness +3 (+7 D.Roll), Fortitude +6, Will +9

Complications:
Relationship (Joan)- Jay & Joan have been married for decades- they both retain their health thanks to Ian Karkull's Shadow Energies.
Responsibility (The Next Generation)- Jay, having lost his only son as an infant, looks upon the next generation of heroes like a father. He takes especially good care of the youngest ones- impressionable rebels like Impulse & Jakeem Thunder, and the virginal Courtney Whitmore (his side hobby is chasing away any older man who pays her too much attention).
Responsibility (Polite)- Jay is unfailingly polite. Generally speaking, if JAY gets upset with you, you're REALLY being an ass.

Total: Abilities: 68 / Skills: 42--21 / Advantages: 23 / Powers: 82 / Defenses: 23 (217)

Jay Garrick- The DCU's Friendly Dad:
-Jay Garrick is an important bit of comics history- he's the first guy whose entire power-set was "Speedster"- Superman could of course move quickly as well, but The Flash could ONLY do that, and his popularity led to a HUGE amount of imitators- Quicksilver/Max Mercury, Johnny Quick, and Timely's Whizzer, plus the successor Flashes (who would become THE iconic Speedsters to a new generation) and Marvel's Quicksilver. And then because of the very first "Earth-Two" story, he became emblematic of the parallel Earths aspect of the DC Universe, and continued until the end of continuity as a mainstay "Elder Statesman" superhero! A hell of a run for the dude. As a kid, I thought he was pretty lame with that silly hat and the "regular clothes as an outfit" look (it's one of the only outfits in comics that doesn't look like it was painted on over bare skin), but the years have been kind.

-Jay was a college student who accidentally inhales- I shit you not- HARD WATER VAPORS and this enables him to reach super-speeds. Not even wearing a mask, he pops on Mercery's helmet and a shirt with a lightning bolt on it, giving us one of the more "is this just regular clothes?" costume designs of the '40s. But it WORKS and the character is a smash hit. The Flash was created for All-American Comics, and quickly became popular enough for his own solo book, All-Flash Comics- curiously, he was designed based off of the exact same sculpture that inspired Namor the Sub-Mariner (a statue of Mercury- Jay got the hat; Namor the feet). He was a founding member of the Justice Society, but when All Flash debuted he was taken off the book with JSA #6, since he didn't need the hype anymore- he'd return in 1945. Most retcons establish him as a nigh-permanent member for more than a decade. Jay lasted right until the end of the '40s- as he wasn't the back-up feature of a regular book, he didn't get to live alongside Superman, Batman and a few others, and so his books died by 1951. He would wait ten years before another appearance, and would never appear in a solo book again. In the meantime, he married Joan.

The Flash of Two Worlds:
-Jay disappears before the '50s hit, and a new Flash is created in Barry Allen, the Silver Age Flash. This is an all-new character in an all-new world (where Barry meets Superman & Batman for the first time, etc.)... and then all of a sudden Jay returns in 1961 when Barry vibrates between Earths, introducing the "Parallel Earths" concept to DC! Both Flashes become great allies, and soon the Justice Society meets the new Justice LEAGUE. When the "Speed Force" concept sprung up, Jay would be linked to it, but not have as esoteric a relationship with the thing. With no children, Jay left no real legacies, but he was a big part any time the JSA showed up again.

-When the Crisis happens, Jay is largely unchanged, but it says his Keystone City is a "sister city" of Barry's Central City, and had disappeared for some years thanks to some nonsense. Jay is a big part of Wally West's life when HE becomes the main Flash, and shows up in various JSA revamps. Finally, he's central to the big JSA run in the late '90s, as one of the very few Golden Age superheroes left- at this point, it's just Jay, Green Lantern, Wildcat & Hippolyta, and soon the latter leaves and is killed, never returning to the book. When the book is revamped again, Jay is more seen as the "Polite One" of the three- Wildcat is brusque and Alan more authoritarian. It's Jay who fends off any older guys away from Stargirl, for example. There's just a general sense that Jay deliberately acts as a dad to the younger superheroes- he confesses to Mr. Terrific that he and Joan adopted a boy who was taken by lieukemia after only a few weeks, and this might be part of it. Ultimately, GL is the "Elder Statesman" who all the other heroes are impressed by (even Batman), but Jay is the one everybody LIKES.

The Flash's Powers:
-Jay is weaker than most later characters named "The Flash" but he's still exceptional. Halfway through JSA, he steals speed from Black Adam and bursts through time, and he took out his enemy Rival single-handedly, literally getting the man to absorb himself into the Speed Force.
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drkrash
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Re: Banshee

Post by drkrash »

Ares wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:01 pm So much this.

It's really sad how much of a parody the X-Men have become of themselves, and the writers don't seem to have any self-awareness.

Before the concept was that the X-Men were fighting so hard for human/mutant co-existence, that they did their best to police evil mutants to keep them from forever tainting humanity's perception of mutants, but that they also went on fun adventures to outer space and other dimensions.

Yet in a time when tolerance for people of different backgrounds is basically not only promoted, but demanded, the X-Men have become essentially racial segregationists, isolationists and supremacists. They literally had a group of humans who admired the X-Men so much that, when they gained access to alien technology that let them become superheroes, they based their personas off of the X-Men. Yet the only person on the team allowed to visit their island is the one actual mutant of said group. Likewise, the second Franklin Richards lost his powers, Professor X and Magneto didn't want anything to do with him.

Combine that with how the eternal resurrections process takes away all stakes from the X-Men, how the mutants now spend most of their time just mulling around an island doing nothing, how they threaten, bully and blackmail world governments into doing what they want, and the X-Men have basically become the exact opposite of Xavier's dream, and only a hairsbreadth away from Magneto's.

I really, really hope that it's revealed that this Moira is some kind of evil dimension hopper (as opposed to being a constantly reincarnating mutant herself, which is dumb) and for some reason loves to screw with the X-Men, and we'll find the actual X-Men all in some kind of Pod People plant pods in Krakoa, including our Moira.

I mean, it's an effective way to get back to the status quo. The X-Men will be feared and hated for all of the crazy shit they've done the last several years, and will have to legitimately work to earn back the trust of everyone. At the same time, it would be a good way to bring some people back, get things to something resembling a status quo, etc.
As usual, I agree with Ares' storytelling. The #2 reason why I don't think they'll do this is because of Hickman's rep; I doubt they'll run a new story that basically says, "Yeah, we undid *everything* you worked on."

(The #1 reason they won't do it is because they seem constitutionally incapable of doing what is best for their characters.)
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EternalPhoenix
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Re: Banshee

Post by EternalPhoenix »

Ares wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:01 pm
greycrusader wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:25 pm
Sidious wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:50 am So as an aside to Banshee...
Recently in the Krakoa era of X-men, Moira has turned against mutants and is being hunted by them.
So she turns to her old flame Banshee... and kills him. Skinning him so she can wear his flesh and get through one of the Gates.

Don't worry, he'll be back soon enough.
Oh, for Cripes’ Sake…does Marvel not have editors any more? Or are the executives still committed to burying the characters for some reason?

I’m just guessing this whole Krakoa/immortal mutant nation thing will be explained as taking place in an alternate reality at some point.

All my best.
drkrash wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:08 pm X-Men can't get Back to Basics soon enough. I haven't liked a single thing Hickman did with the X-Men. Not one. I just don't know how they come back from this.
M4C8 wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:01 pm Agreed, they haven't been quite right for a long time now in their views and behaviour, especially so since the cult of mutant supremacy that is Krakoa.
So much this.

It's really sad how much of a parody the X-Men have become of themselves, and the writers don't seem to have any self-awareness.

Before the concept was that the X-Men were fighting so hard for human/mutant co-existence, that they did their best to police evil mutants to keep them from forever tainting humanity's perception of mutants, but that they also went on fun adventures to outer space and other dimensions.

Yet in a time when tolerance for people of different backgrounds is basically not only promoted, but demanded, the X-Men have become essentially racial segregationists, isolationists and supremacists. They literally had a group of humans who admired the X-Men so much that, when they gained access to alien technology that let them become superheroes, they based their personas off of the X-Men. Yet the only person on the team allowed to visit their island is the one actual mutant of said group. Likewise, the second Franklin Richards lost his powers, Professor X and Magneto didn't want anything to do with him.

Combine that with how the eternal resurrections process takes away all stakes from the X-Men, how the mutants now spend most of their time just mulling around an island doing nothing, how they threaten, bully and blackmail world governments into doing what they want, and the X-Men have basically become the exact opposite of Xavier's dream, and only a hairsbreadth away from Magneto's.

I really, really hope that it's revealed that this Moira is some kind of evil dimension hopper (as opposed to being a constantly reincarnating mutant herself, which is dumb) and for some reason loves to screw with the X-Men, and we'll find the actual X-Men all in some kind of Pod People plant pods in Krakoa, including our Moira.

I mean, it's an effective way to get back to the status quo. The X-Men will be feared and hated for all of the crazy shit they've done the last several years, and will have to legitimately work to earn back the trust of everyone. At the same time, it would be a good way to bring some people back, get things to something resembling a status quo, etc.
My counter point to all of this is as follows. How many mutant massacres have there been now? How many times have the X-Men rebuilt themselves and the Xavier School only to have another batch of crazed fanatics blow it up and murder a bunch of students? Oh, and sometimes it's the US government reauthorizing the Sentinel program because yanno, mutants evil and bad. While the Avengers, Fantastic Four, SHIELD, etc sit around twiddling their thumbs? From an in universe perspective they must've looked completely insane. After a certain point anybody would give up and move to their own little corner of the world just to get away from being freaking killed all the time, and spat on when not. Things have gotten out of hand, going much more Magneto than original flavor Xavier, but god, can you blame them? Consolidating on one island and using all their powers and skills to make absolutely goddamn sure nobody can ever massacre them again. And if it happens despite their best efforts, it no longer matters.

From an out of universe perspective, how many times can they write the same basic story? Because purging mutant prejudice from the Marvel U would rob the X-Men of their unique hook, so it has to stay. Meaning ultimately Xavier's Dream has to be impossible to achieve, narratively speaking. So how may times can you write the X-Men failing? One step forwards, two steps back? Before it becomes repetitive? And again, they fundamentally can't be just another superhero team. Especially not since the MCU's success made the Avengers huge. They need that hook of saving a world that hates and fears them. Even if they just stuck to combatting evil mutants, that itself would get repetitive. A lot of good stories with the traditional X-Men set up have been told, told again, and told a third time. Krakoa is at least something new and different. Not treading the same old hamster wheel of stories. Whether it's any good or not, eh. That's gonna be divisive.

I mean, it's gonna end eventually. It's comics, everything ends eventually. And because it's the X-Men, it's gonna be melodramatic, highly destructive, and feature yet another mutant massacre to add to the list. Honestly, I liken it to Hydra!Cap and both Civil Wars. Good idea in theory, but the execution tends to leave a lot to be desired.
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Jack of Spades
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Re: Banshee

Post by Jack of Spades »

EternalPhoenix wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 7:40 pm My counter point to all of this is as follows. How many mutant massacres have there been now? How many times have the X-Men rebuilt themselves and the Xavier School only to have another batch of crazed fanatics blow it up and murder a bunch of students? Oh, and sometimes it's the US government reauthorizing the Sentinel program because yanno, mutants evil and bad. While the Avengers, Fantastic Four, SHIELD, etc sit around twiddling their thumbs? From an in universe perspective they must've looked completely insane. After a certain point anybody would give up and move to their own little corner of the world just to get away from being freaking killed all the time, and spat on when not. Things have gotten out of hand, going much more Magneto than original flavor Xavier, but god, can you blame them? Consolidating on one island and using all their powers and skills to make absolutely goddamn sure nobody can ever massacre them again. And if it happens despite their best efforts, it no longer matters.
This seems like essentially the same argument as "Batman should just murder the Joker; Arkham can't cure him or hold him." And while it may be supportable from an in-universe standpoint, it makes Batman, at least in my book, no longer the good guy. He should be better than that.

The problem, to me, isn't that the X-Men built a safe space. It's that they proceeded to decide that mutants are and should be superior to baseline humans. I think this gets into authorial politics, so I won't explore the idea any further, but it absolutely turns me off of reading the book, since I can't help thinking that I would never be allowed to reap the benefits of Krakoa. These people would now hate, if not fear, me.

Xavier's dream is worth fighting for. That it may never be achieved, that it may be, shall we say, a Never Ending Battle for Truth, Justice, and... a society that can blend the uniqueness of its members into some sort of melting pot that distills out the best of each component into an alloy of inestimable strength and beauty... that's what makes it a dream. And if the X-Men have lost sight of the dream in favor of standing apart from everyone and saying "this is mine, and I will not share," then they've stopped being aspirational figures. And that's what I want from my comics. Heroes.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Police Academy! Banshee! Siryn! The JSA!)

Post by Shock »

For a story that wants to go on indefinitely (as comics have no end), you'd think a never ending battle would be the way to go
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