Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Goldar
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Liberty Belle! Dr. Fate! Zatara! Zatanna!)

Post by Goldar »

Davies wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:46 am
Goldar wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:35 am What about Zatara's wife and Zatana's mother, Sindella? She was supposed to be fairly powerful. Any write-up on her?
We only really ever see Sindella in the story where she dies, so I suspect there's not really enough to evaluate her capacities. I would pretty much just use Z's stats for her, possibly dropping the drawkcab skaeps limitation.
Ah so. Sdnuos doog. Thank you.
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Tor the Magic Master

Post by Jabroniville »

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TOR, THE MAGIC MASTER (Jimmy Slade)
Created By:
Paul Gustavson
First Appearance: Crack Comics #10 (Feb. 1941)
Role: Magic Guy
Group Affiliations: The All-Star Squadron
PL 9 (112)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Deception 5 (+7)
Investigation 4 (+6)
Expertise (Arcane Lore) 6 (+7)
Perception 6 (+8)
Expertise (Photographer) 7 (+8)
Insight 4 (+6)
Stealth 4 (+6)

Advantages:
Artificer, Ritualist

Powers:
"Transform Ship to Giant Turtle" Summon 7 (Extras: Active, Variable 2- Any Creature) (Flaws: Source- Large Objects) Linked to Affliction 10 (Toughness; Transformed to Creature) (Extras: Ranged) (Flaws: Limited to Last Level -2) (33) -- [38]
  • AE: "Bulletproof" Protection 8 (8)
  • AE: Nullify 8 (Ballistics) (Extras: Area- Audio Perception) (16)
  • AE: "Giant Commando" Morph 2 Linked to Growth 8 (26)
  • AE: Blast 7 (14)
  • AE: "Levitation" Flight 2 (8 mph) (Flaws: Low Ceiling) (2)
Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Giant Sized +6 (+9 Damage, DC 24)
Magic Blast +5 (+7 Ranged Damage, DC 22)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +2 (+10 Bulletproof), Fortitude +4, Will +4

Complications:
Power Loss (Magic)- Tor must speak backwards in order to cast spells.

Total: Abilities: 42 / Skills: 36--18 / Advantages: 2 / Powers: 38 / Defenses: 12 (112)

-Tor is another one of the many "Tuxedo-Wearing Sorcerer Guy" Golden Age heroes, and has little originality to him. A Quality Comics character, he's photographer wearing a disguise (and even copying Zatara's "Speaking Backwards" schtick, only a while after Merlin the Magician started doing THE EXACT SAME THING), he debuted in the '40s, and was a huge failure, disappearing in a little over a year (no time at all by Golden Age standards), being drawn out of the mothballs in a flashback story just to be killed in some adventure featuring ALL the tuxedo wearing mystics of the day. He was never more than a backdrop guy, with The Clock & Black Condor as cover boys on Crack Comics.

-Poor Tor was nothing but a shallow rip-off character, and hardly deserves full-blown Magic-Man status (hell, DC's own massive Encyclopedia lists him as "low-level"). I initially said "A PL 6 Mage? Yes, it is indeed possible" but APPARENTLY he has a ton of powers, as KorkoMystia found somewhere online. Magic guys are a pain in the ass. The levitation power was the only one I could see getting referenced in any source I could find.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Liberty Belle! Dr. Fate! Zatara! Zatanna!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

Yeah, back then I pretty much just stumbled across them because I was curious after seeing your original writeup
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Liberty Belle! Dr. Fate! Zatara! Zatanna!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Goldar wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:35 am What about Zatara's wife and Zatana's mother, Sindella? She was supposed to be fairly powerful. Any write-up on her?
Never heard of her. She's only mentioned twice on Zatanna's Wikipedia page, and completely ignored thereafter!
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Liberty Belle! Dr. Fate! Zatara! Zatanna!)

Post by Sidney369 »

Jabroniville wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:52 am
Sidney369 wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:04 am Merlin didn't become a Zatara clone until Fred Guardineer took over the feature in National #12. Of course, he was a fairly generic magician before that. And despite what Comic Vine said, he was not in All-Star Squadron. I've read both those issues, and while they did contain all the Golden Age DC characters and the Quality ones DC cared about, he was not one of them. He was in the All-Star Comics JSA prequel, where he died.

I am enjoying this series. I'm a huge fan of Golden Age heroes and had the entire runs of All-Star Squadron, Infinity Inc., and Secret Origins, as well as JSA and the Justice League series.
ah, that's odd- ANOTHER writer came in and swapped gimmicks, despite him sharing a creator with Zatara?
More like another writer came in and changed his gimmick to match the character he was used to writing. And while Fred Guardineer did create Tor, he didn't start casting his spells by speaking backwards until Crack #14. (My source for the info on them is the Quality Companion by Twomorrows)

I do like Zatanna's blue and white superhero costume, but that can be because that's what she was wearing when I first read a comic with her in it (Justice League of America #248), and also it's what Perez drew her in during his run of JLoA.
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Doctor Occult

Post by Jabroniville »

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DOCTOR OCCULT (Richard Occult)
Created By:
Jerry Siegel & Joe Shuster
First Appearance: More Fun Comics #6 (Oct. 1935)
Role: Magic Guy
Group Affiliations: The All-Star Squadron, The Sentinels of Magic, The Trenchcoat Brigade
PL 12 (196)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 4 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Deception 6 (+9)
Expertise (Arcane Lore) 8 (+11)
Insight 6 (+10)
Investigation 8 (+12)
Perception 6 (+10)
Ranged Combat (Blasts) 4 (+10)
Stealth 6 (+7)

Advantages:
Artificer, Contacts, Ranged Attack, Ritualist, Skill Mastery (Arcane Lore), Trance

Powers:
Teleport 10 (Feats: Progression 4, Dynamic) (Extras: Extended, Accurate) (45) -- [57]
  • Dynamic AE: Flight 4 (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Affects Others) (13)
  • Dynamic AE: Movement 3 (Dimensional Travel 3) (Feats: Dynamic) (7)
  • Dynamic AE: "Astral Projection" Remote Sensing 10 (Visual) (Feats: Subtle, Selective, Dimensional, Dynamic) (24)
  • Dynamic AE: Telekinesis 14 (Feats: Dynamic) (29)
  • Dynamic AE: Force Field 10 (Feats: Dynamic) (11)
  • Dynamic AE: Illusion 10 (Visual) (Feats: Dynamic) (21)
Immunity 11 (Aging, Life Support) [11]

"Symbol of Seven" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [35]
Nullify Magic 14 (Extras: Ranged, Broad, Simultaneous) (56) -- (58 points)
  • AE: "Exorcism" Movement 2 (Dimensional Travel 2) (Extras: Attack at 14 Ranks) (Flaws: Limited to Demons) (8)
  • AE: Mystical Blast 14 (28)
Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Magic Blast +10 (+14 Ranged Damage, DC 29)
Exorcism +6 (+14 Movement Attack, DC 24)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +2 (+12 Force Field), Fortitude +4, Will +8

Complications:
Relationship (Rose Psychic- Girlfriend)- They were together for years, then got fused together- they can switch out with each other. Because comics are weird.
Responsibility (The Seven)- Dr. Occult and Rose were freed from a Satanic Cult's ritual murder by The Society of the Seven, and joined them.

Total: Abilities: 52 / Skills: 44--22 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 103 / Defenses: 14 (196)

-Doctor Occult is more of a strange footnote in DC Comics history than a major player, as he usually only shows up during huge events to be all important and stuff (since like most Magic Guys, he's way too powerful to be a regular). See, the guy was created by Siegel & Shuster (yes, THAT Siegel and Shuster), pre-Superman, in 1935 as a detective/magic guy, making him DC's first official character still in use prior to the Nu-52 era. He even had the same visual "look" as Supes, with a fedora/trenchcoat detective outfit instead of tights (though in one story, he wears a cape, making him the first CAPED superhero). But he pretty much vanished by 1938, until the combination of All-Star Squadron and Crisis on Infinite Earths, both obsessed with nostalgia, brought him out of the woodwork, becoming a major focus in the climax of the storyline, teaming with Alan Scott to focus all the mystics in DC's power into the Symbol of Seven and the Starheart. We still saw him occasionally in the modern age, kicking around the JSA reserves during big stories.

-Dr. Occult's origin is that he and a girl named Rose were to be sacrificed by a Satanic cult on New Year's Even in 1899- they were rescued by a group of Eastern mystics called "The Seven", who fought off the demonic monster, Koth. The Seven recognized the psychic potential in Richard & Rose, and trained them as "Richard Occult" and "Rose Psychic"- Richard was given the Mystic Symbol of the Seven. He & Rose opened a private invetigation firm, fighting monsters, men of magic, and other mysterios events- Occult even joined the All-Star Squadron. Neil Gaiman would later use Dr. Occult as one of young Tim Hunter's guides in The Books of Magic, explaining that Occult had died, and to save him, Rose combined both of their souls into one body, so both aspects were there in the same person. He even appears in the New 52 era, but is killed quickly by a mystery assailant.

-Occult's a magical heavy-hitter, with +14 damage and PL 12 overall, Immunity to Aging (he's been alive all these years without aging), a focus on Exorcism via his symbol, casting various common spells (TK, Force Field, Astral Projection, Illusions, Teleportation, etc.) and doing tons of useful stuff. So he costs a fair bit, but not as much as some PL 12s do.
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Davies
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Dr. Fate! Zatara! Zatanna! Sargon! Tor! Dr. Occult!)

Post by Davies »

There's a semi-cute bit in one All-Star Squadron issue where Supes and Dr. Occult meet and both note that the other looks AWFULLY familiar.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Dr. Fate! Zatara! Zatanna! Sargon! Tor! Dr. Occult!)

Post by Shock »

Dude is like a direct copy of Dick Tracy visually. Just swap the magic doodad for a gun or flashlight and you'd never tell them apart
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Dr. Fate! Zatara! Zatanna! Sargon! Tor! Dr. Occult!)

Post by Ken »

Shock wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:41 pmDude is like a direct copy of Dick Tracy visually. Just swap the magic doodad for a gun or flashlight and you'd never tell them apart
At least use the two-way wrist radio to make it's clear it's Tracy.

It's not a direct copy. They were adventurers with suits, hats, and top coats. In 1930s America, that isn't distinctive.

Now, is it possible that Gould's art style influenced Shuster? Sure. But the early Dick Tracy doesn't look much like Dick Tracy. Gould's style would alter with time. In 1935, Tracy's nose was large, but not the angular monster that it would become. He hadn't become all squinty yet.

For what it's worth, Dr. Occult looked a lot like Slam Bradley, but with a better tailor. And they both looked like Superman. Shuster was an early victim of same-face-syndrome.
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The Guardian

Post by Jabroniville »

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THE GUARDIAN I (James "Jim" Harper & Clones, aka The Golden Guardian)
Created By:
Joe Simon & Jack Kirby
First Appearance: Star-Spangled Comics #7 (April 1942)
Role: Shield-Bearing Hero
Group Affiliations: The Science Police, The All-Star Squadron, Project Cadmus, The Newsboy Legion, The Justice League of America
PL 9 (127)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 12 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 7 (+12)
Athletics 9 (+12)
Deception 3 (+6)
Expertise (Police Officer) 6 (+9)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 2 (+5)
Investigation 5 (+8)
Perception 2 (+5)
Persuasion 3 (+6)
Vehicles 4 (+8)

Advantages:
Equipment 3 (Motorcycle- Autopilot, Multi-Directional Recording Camera), Fast Grab, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Interpose, Quick Draw, Ranged Attack 2, Takedown

Powers:
"The Guardian's Mighty Shield" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [5]
Enhanced Dodge 3 (3)
Enhanced Parry 2 (2)
Strength-Damage +2 (2)
-- (7 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +12 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Shield Bash +12 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Initiative +9

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (+14 Shield, DC 21-24), Parry +12 (+14 Shield, DC 22-24), Toughness +4, Fortitude +6, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Justice)- Jim Harper became a vigilante to fight crooks the law could not prosecute.
Relationship (The Newsboy Legion)

Total: Abilities: 74 / Skills: 44--22 / Advantages: 13 / Powers: 5 / Defenses: 13 (127)

The Guardian- A Cap Knock-Off?:
-Nowadays, Jim "The Guardian" Harper is pretty much mostly-known for being a Captain America knock-off: He's a big, strong guy with no real powers, a disc-shaped shield on his arm, kid sidekicks, and he was the creation of Joe Simon & Jack Kirby, mere months after they'd quit Timely Comics (and their skinflint of skinflints boss, Martin Goodman) and their creation, Captain America. It's such a clear comparison that it appears in almost every bio done of the guy- "He greatly resembles Captain America" or somesuch thing. Hell, centuries after his book was published, that's practically ALL he's known for!

-The question is... is that fair? Okay, so it's immediately obvious that Cap inspired him- the creators are the frickin' same. People call Moon Knight a Batman knock-off, and he's WAY more dissimilar to Bats than Guardian is to Cap. And his primary allies, the Newsboy Legion, share more than a few similarities to the Young Allies- Bucky & Toro's partners (Scrapper & Big Words are verrrrry similar to Knuckles & Jefferson). But his origins are different (he's your standard "Cop Gone Vigilante" character- which was kind of old hat even THEN), he wasn't a Patriotic Hero (more and more were created in the wake of Cap, who was himself a knock-off of MLJ's Shield, even ripping off the same SHIELD design, and sharing parts of the origin). And really... so much of the Golden Age was unoriginal. We tend to forget nowadays that Superman, Batman, Captain Marvel and basically everyone else was freely based off of stuff taken from other sources. Nowadays it's considered lecture-worthy to just knock off another company's character (but let's not pretend it doesn't STILL happen), but back then, the rules of the game were a bit different. So there's no need for a lot of the laughing-off this guy tends to get, where he's immediately dismissed because of his Knock-Off Nature.

The Guardian's Original Run:
-So, it's like this: Jim Harper was a Metropolis cop who becomes a vigilante to fight crooks the law cannot prosecute effectively. Trained by Joe Morgan, the ex-boxer trainer of Wildcat and The Atom, he becomes aided by a group of boys called The Newsboy Legion, back when poor and/or orphaned children selling newspapers for cash was a BIG thing. As his book was done by one of the top creative duos of the time, his stuff actually became VERY popular, especially thanks to the Newsboys, who were great "Fan P.O.V." characters- cash-strapped kids of varied origins was a lot more fun than the standard dutiful Sidekick/Hostage. Like, there was a really good chance you could see yourself in ONE of them! What's humorous looking at the covers is the Newsboys are very clearly the stars of the joint- the Guardian (who was literally and legally their guardian) is helping them, but they're nearly always front and center on the covers of Star Spangled Comics (where Guardian bumped the Star-Spangled Kid as cover-boy only seven issues after his debut!).

-However, the Guardian soon faded away, despite the success- Simon & Kirby were drafted in 1943, soon after the Guardian debuted, and the character ended up only lasting from 1942-1946- the Newsboys are on a few covers without him, and then the book shifts entirely to a Robin-centric one, with Liberty Belle and Robbie the Robot-Dog in the backdrop.

The Guardian Returns:
-When Jack Kirby quit Marvel and moved over to DC in the 1970s, he promptly renewed his "Guardian" character, putting him (and the adult Newsboys, who had formed the Cadmus Project) in the supporting cast of the Jimmy Olsen book he was working on. This Guardian was a clone of the original Jim Harper. They put an old, dying Harper's mind into a younger, cloned body as a "cheat" and we were off. He is called "The Golden Guardian" at first, acting as a Cadmus agent, but Post-Crisis is retconnned as having the original name the whole time. This Guardian is killed as well, but another clone is rapidly created and Harper's mind is in THAT one as well. This one sticks around, but DC doesn't care about him and he disappears- it's unknown what happened to him after Cadmus had an altercation with President Lex Luthor & Amanda Waller in the 2000s. In the '80s, the original Guardian made a tiny handful of appearances in The All-Star Squadron, but writer Roy Thomas apparently had little use for him.

-Infinite Crisis caused a retcon in which the original Harper was fatally shot by a Cadmus agent, not simply "in the line of duty". The original clone hadn't been killed, and in fact had left Cadmus early, and was assisting Sheriff Greg Saunders (Vigilante) in the Mexican border town of Warpath. Subsequent appearances of "Guardian" were all clones, each of which died within a year- the original clone moves to Metropolis with an adopted daughter named Gwen (who is actually a FEMALE clone of his that he rescued). He is named chief of the "Science Police" in the New Krypton story arc, investigating New Krypton and Kryptonian/Earthling interactions. He VERY briefly joins James Robinson's JLA book, but leaves after a single issue because the writer wanted to work with a smaller cast.

-So in the end... the Guardian really only mattered for a little bit, and has typically not been used except for the occasional strange "He's Cadmus's Official Super-Hero" stuff, or when a random writer wants to take a forgotten Golden Ager and focus on him- the Vigilante/Warpath thing and the "New Krypton" thing are VERY strange, and all the clones just complicates matters. That he's so easily "ressurectible" just makes him seem disposable as well- the cloning thing has honestly done more damage to this guy than being a Cap rip-off. All of the endless clonings essentially make the character a piece of nothing whose life isn't really important, since he can be replaced anyways.

The Guardian's Abilities:
-The Guardian is basically Captain America Lite, using more human-level stats and a more standard-issue Shield. As a Clone Harper, he was super-strong and had a Healing Factor, which didn't prevent frequent deaths, to the point where I'd say their PLs are basically equal.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatara! Zatanna! Sargon! Tor! Dr. Occult! Guardian!)

Post by Jabroniville »

I recall the “Is Guardian a Cap Knock-Off?” thing resulted in a spirited debate at Ronin Army, so I’m curious how the reaction will be here :).
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatara! Zatanna! Sargon! Tor! Dr. Occult! Guardian!)

Post by Davies »

If he was not when created, he became so in later days.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatara! Zatanna! Sargon! Tor! Dr. Occult! Guardian!)

Post by Tattooedman »

I don't really see Guardian as a Cap nockoff, sure they're both super fit guys that use shields but Guardian doesn't throw his (not that I've ever seen) and Cap has the SSF to push him to Olympic levels of physical ability while Guardian is "just" in really good shape. Plus Cap operates all over the world while Guardian kept to his home city for the most part.

Lots of minor differences but they are there.
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:45 pm
LOl- "The Tattooed Man"? What kind of ABSOLUTE DILDO would refer to himself as "The Tattooed Man" :P!?!
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Goldar
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Liberty Belle! Dr. Fate! Zatara! Zatanna!)

Post by Goldar »

Jabroniville wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:31 am
Goldar wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:35 am What about Zatara's wife and Zatana's mother, Sindella? She was supposed to be fairly powerful. Any write-up on her?
Never heard of her. She's only mentioned twice on Zatanna's Wikipedia page, and completely ignored thereafter!
Huh! I did not know that my friend. No worries. She certainly cannot get a write up with only a mention.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatara! Zatanna! Sargon! Tor! Dr. Occult! Guardian!)

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:27 pm I recall the “Is Guardian a Cap Knock-Off?” thing resulted in a spirited debate at Ronin Army, so I’m curious how the reaction will be here :).
Much more sedate.
Tattooedman wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 10:34 pm I don't really see Guardian as a Cap nockoff, sure they're both super fit guys that use shields but Guardian doesn't throw his (not that I've ever seen) and Cap has the SSF to push him to Olympic levels of physical ability while Guardian is "just" in really good shape. Plus Cap operates all over the world while Guardian kept to his home city for the most part.

Lots of minor differences but they are there.
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