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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatanna! Dr. Occult! Guardian! The Newsboy Legion! Starman!))

Post by Davies »

You might mention that Captain Comet was cancelled in 1954.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatanna! Dr. Occult! Guardian! The Newsboy Legion! Starman!))

Post by Ares »

Davies wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:40 am
Ares wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:22 am In a universe where The JSA predate Superman, my take would be that Starman was Clark's favorite JSAer, and that his own outfit was meant to pay homage to the heroes of that era, Starman in particular.
I'm sure that Clark would have liked to meet him, but he thought he'd blow his mind.
I'm missing something here.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatanna! Dr. Occult! Guardian! The Newsboy Legion! Starman!))

Post by Davies »

Ares wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:49 am
Davies wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:40 am
Ares wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:22 am In a universe where The JSA predate Superman, my take would be that Starman was Clark's favorite JSAer, and that his own outfit was meant to pay homage to the heroes of that era, Starman in particular.
I'm sure that Clark would have liked to meet him, but he thought he'd blow his mind.
I'm missing something here.
Not yet seen the trailer for Lightyear?
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Starman (Mikaal Tomas)

Post by Jabroniville »

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STARMAN III (Mikaal Tomas, aka Michael Thomas)
Created By:
Gerry Conway & Mike Vosburg
First Appearance: 1st Issue Special #12 (March 1976)
Role: Alien Hero, Flying Blaster
Group Affiliations: The Justice League of America
PL 10 (136)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Insight 4 (+6)
Intimidation 2 (+4)
Perception 2 (+4)

Advantages:
Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Blasts), Improved Smash, Interpose, Ranged Attack 6

Powers:
Flight 8 (500 mph) [16]
"Sonic Chest Crystal" Blast 11 [22]
Impervious Toughness 3 [3]
Regeneration 2 [2]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Sonic Blast +8 (+11 Ranged Damage, DC 26)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +9 (DC 19), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +8 (+2 Impervious), Fortitude +8, Will +6

Complications:
Prejudice (Gay)
Relationship (Tony)- Mikaal's boyfriend is killed in Justice League: Cry For Justice.

Total: Abilities: 70 / Skills: 8--4 / Advantages: 10 / Powers: 43 / Defenses: 9 (136)

-Starman II (the Starman of 1951) is actually Dr. Mid-Nite I- Charles McNider- acting in the role for a time. He is resplaced by David Knight, who'd gone back in time after his "death". There was also an evil Star-Man (plus the time Batman became "Starman" in a single story, using a star motif instead of a bat one). But Mikaal Tomas is a 1970s creation- the third "true" Starman- and was sent to Earth to conquer it, flying around on foot-discs and using a gemstone necklace (which later gets imbedded in his chest, giving him innate power). He pulled a Captain Mar-Vell and grew to love humanity instead, inspired by his own people killing his lover Lyssa for showing empathy to their intended conquests. This Starman's overall concept was inspired by David Bowie's Starman song. The guy was largely unsuccessful and vanished completely, despite being created by Gerry Conway (of The Night Gwen Stacy Died fame), until James Robinson brought him back for his own Starman run- a natural completist and continuity junkie, Robinson must have wanted to use EVERY possible Starman. I mean, this guy was so minor that he debuted in 1976 and DC had a NEW Starman only four years later!

-Tomas ended up with amnesia after he first came to Earth, and was revealed to be gay in modern times. He showed up in Justice League: Cry For Justice, aka James Robinson Proves He Might Not Have Been That Great A Writer After All, after his boyfriend Tony is killed, and he befriends Congorilla. Soon he joins the official JLA, but doesn't get up to much, as Robinson's run was fairly unpopular. Humorously, he is introduced to like the only other gay superhero by Congorilla, and promptly begins dating him- Mikaal & Tasmanian Devil were then a "thing". This reminds me of all the gay guys I know who HATE IT when girls try to hook them up with the only other gay guy they know, because "You're both gay" seems to be the only common thing between the two being set up. In any case, Mikaal becomes the sole active Starman as a result of this bit, operating in Opal City as its protector, for Jame Robinson saw fit to have at least ONE of the six Starmen active.

-Tomas apparently has a pretty strong blast, and some other fairly-uninteresting powers. He's PL 10, but not a very efficient one.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatanna! Dr. Occult! Guardian! The Newsboy Legion! Starman!))

Post by greycrusader »

Ken wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:53 am Mister Terrific survived as long as he did because All-American Publications had fewer super-heroes than National, so his berth in Sensation Comics lasted until page counts dropped too far.

(Plus he had a great costume. ;) )
His costume can look really good or pretty bad depending on the coloring; if it’s deep red or burgundy, with a dark green jacket, and burgundy or brown boots, it’s solid; bright red and light green make him look like a Christmas tree ornament.

A LOT of Golden Age and even early Silver/Bronze Age costumes are like this-The Vision and Colossus looked WAY better and more impressive with the old comics inking process, for example.

All my best.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatanna! Dr. Occult! Guardian! The Newsboy Legion! Starman!))

Post by Ken »

Robinson had a definite fondness for the characters from First Issue Special. Atlas (FIS #1) showed up as an antagonist in the Superman books. Codename: Assassin (FIS #11) showed up first in a Jimmy Olsen special, and then also hung around Metropolis. And of course Mikaal Tomas from FIS #12.

I'm surprised the Dingbats of Danger Street (FIS #6) didn't show up to fight the Green Team: Boy Millionaires (FIS #2).
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Starman (Prince Gavyn)

Post by Jabroniville »

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STARMAN IV (Prince Gavyn)
Created By:
Paul Levitz & Steve Ditko
First Appearance: Adventure Comics #467 (Jan. 1980)
Role: Cosmic Hero
Group Affiliations: Throneworld
PL 10 (153)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Deception 3 (+6)
Expertise (Throneworld's Ruler) 6 (+7)
Expertise (Space Hero) 4 (+5)
Insight 2 (+4)
Perception 3 (+5)
Ranged Combat (Cosmic Blasts) 2 (+10)
Technology 3 (+4)
Vehicles 1 (+3)

Advantages:
Benefit 4 (Ruler of Throneworld), Ranged Attack 6

Powers:
Flight 10 (2,000 mph) [20]
Immunity 10 (Life Support) [10]
"Energy Absorber" Immunity 20 (Energy Damage) (Flaws: Limited to Half-Effect) [10]
"Returns To Life When Slain" Immortality 5 (Quirks: He Doesn't Realize When He's Done It, and May Have Amnesia) [8]

"Quasar-Lookin' Wrist-Bands" (Flaws: Removable) [20]
Cosmic Blast 10 (Feats: Split) (Extras: Penetrating 6) (Quirks: Requires Some Energy Damage to Use Top Two Ranks -2) (25 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Cosmic Blast +10 (+10 Ranged Damage, DC 25)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +4, Fortitude +6, Will +5

Complications:
Responsibility (Throneworld)- Prince Gavyn is the ruler and defender of his homeworld.
Secret (Killed Will Payton)- Gavyn is actually the energy bolt that empowered Will Payton. However, he also KILLED Payton in so doing (he wasn't aware of his actions at the time), and masqueraded as him during his time as Starman. He now feels tremendous guilt for this.

Total: Abilities: 52 / Skills: 24--12 / Advantages: 10 / Powers: 68 / Defenses: 11 (153)

-The fourth Starman is Prince Gavyn, a spoiled alien royal who was sentenced to death because his sister was threatened by his potential claim on the throne- it turned out that he was a mutant who could survive in space (where they'd exiled him), and he got some magical equipment that turned him into a Cosmic Hero. He ends up becoming a masked protector of Throneworld, and then its ruler when his sister is assassinated- he basically didn't get up to much (despite the strong pedigree of Levitz & Ditko), and was thought killed in the Crisis on Infinite Earths. He'd only made twelve appearances in Adventure Comics (a shared book which also had either a Plastic Man or Aquaman story during Gavyn's 1980 run) by that point and was gone- a quick failure like Mikaal Tomas was. James Robinson's Starman series reintroduced him, and revealed that he'd been turned into pure energy, and was the very energy bolt that gave Will Payton (the fifth Starman) his powers. However, in a major retcon, Robinson explained that Gavyn had completely erased the personality of Payton, effectively taking over his body by mistake!

-Gavyn later appeared, looking more like his original self, in The Rann-Thanagar War, defending Throneworld from Thanagarians, and helping out Adam Strange. Curiously, he's seen in JLU as one of the many non-speaking, background Justice Leaguers- his costume's not bad, though terribly generic- basically a big star with some goggles and that "hair showing on top of the mask" look.

-Alas, I have NO IDEA how powerful this guy is supposed to be- he's apparently a Flying Cosmic Blaster, but doesn't seem to have any of the requisite durability. The DCA build has him at *PL 12*, and he's got a TON of powers that don't appear on any Bio-Sites I can find, but most of the posters here seem agreed that he's PL 9-10 at best. Given that my knowledge of Prince Gavyn extends to going "there's a fourth Starman named Prince Gavyn?" upon reading the Wikipedia section on "Starman", I'm going to defer to others' impressions of the guy over mine.
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Re: Starman (Prince Gavyn)

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:38 pm he basically didn't get up to much (despite the strong pedigree of Levitz & Ditko), and was thought killed in the Crisis on Infinite Earths. He'd only made twelve appearances in Adventure Comics by that point and was gone- a quick failure like Mikaal Tomas was.
He also had one guest appearance with Superman in DC Comics Presents. He wasn't as quick a failure as Mikaal Tomas who basically had his ONE issue of First Issue Special until he was Robinsoned.
Jabroniville wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 7:38 pm James Robinson's Starman series reintroduced him, and revealed that he'd been turned into pure energy, and was the very energy bolt that gave Will Payton (the fifth Starman) his powers. However, in a major retcon, Robinson explained that Gavyn had completely erased the personality of Payton, effectively taking over his body by mistake!
THIS was when James Robinson Proves He Might Not Have Been That Great A Writer After All. It was a weak-ass retcon. Especially since Will was the most successful Starman before Jack by at least one metric. As we've already discussed, Ted Knight's solo series lasted through 44 issues of Adventure; Will's book Starman volume 1 lasted 45 issues.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatanna! Dr. Occult! Guardian! The Newsboy Legion! Starman!))

Post by greycrusader »

I wrote up the Prince Gavyn Starman for DCAdventures; I pegged him at PL 11 at the time he perished in his later-day appearances (post Crisis on Infinite Earths) since by that time he was the champion of a whole star system, but I agree in the earlier stories (when he was wearing his original red costume) Starman IV was a PL 9-10 guy.

The retcon by Robinson was needless; honestly, bringing back Gavyn was kind of pointless, and if DC didn't want to do anything with Payton, I would have had him take Gavyn's place as a space-based hero, with one Starman truly replacing another.

All my best.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatanna! Dr. Occult! Guardian! The Newsboy Legion! Starman!))

Post by Spam »

I have my own thoughts on the Gavyn/Will Payton debacle, but I'm sure Ares will express my point just fine without me having to gather my scattered thoughts.
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Starman (Will Payton)

Post by Jabroniville »

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STARMAN V (Will Payton)
Created By:
Roger Stern & Tom Lyle
First Appearance: Starman #1 (Oct. 1988)
Role: Failed Hero
Group Affiliations: None
PL 9 (170)
STRENGTH
9 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Deception 2 (+4)
Expertise (Copy Editor) 4 (+5)
Insight 3 (+5)
Perception 3 (+5)
Persuasion 3 (+5)
Stealth 1 (+5)
Ranged Combat (Blasts) 2 (+8)

Advantages:
Power Attack, Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
Power-Lifting 1 (25 tons) [1]
Protection 2 [2]
Flight 9 (1,000 mph) [18]
"Shapeshifting" Morph 3 [15]
"Living Star" Immunity 11 (Life Support, Aging) [11]
"Inhuman Physique" Features 1: May Count as "Not Human"- Certain Powers are Ineffective (Parasite's Absorption, etc.) [1]

Cosmic Blast 10 (Feats: Split) (Extras: Penetrating 6) (27) -- [31]
  • AE: "Omnidirectional Blast" Damage 9 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (27)
  • AE: Environment 3 (Light) (6)
  • AE: Dazzle Visuals 10 (20)
  • AE: Environment 6 (Heat 2) (12)
Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Cosmic Blast +8 (+10 Ranged Damage, DC 25)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +10, Fortitude +8, Will +5

Complications:
Enemy (The Hutchinson Institute)- The Institute is hunting him to find out why he got so much power, while their own agents got so little.
Responsibility (Rookie)
Relationship (Mother, Sister, Dr. Kitty Faulkner)- He is close with the two former, and dates the latter.

Total: Abilities: 72 / Skills: 18--9 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 77 / Defenses: 7 (170)

-Will Payton can be chalked down as a failed 1980s superhero- debuting in his own book, with a talent on the level of Roger Stern (around the time his great Avengers run was nearing its end) behind him. Starman lasted 45 issues from 1988-1992, which was... well, not a GREAT run, but not an awful one, either. The book "feels" very much like a Marvel-style book just reading about it, which makes sense- Payton himself is a CLASSIC "Peter Parker"- one of the best examples of DC's late '80s, early '90s attempts at creating more Peter Parkers (Kyle Rayner was another, more successful one)- the "Everyday Guy" character archetype was more common than ever at the time, in a direct attempt to copy some of Marvel's success. The book apparently took a nosedive in quality after Stern left 25 issues in, and it was cancelled after 20 more.

-Will Payton was a newspaper Copy Editor who was struck by an energy beam from a satellite (meant for some Evil Organization's super-agents). Payton ultimately sacrificed himself to kill Eclipso- however, it was revealed in the '90s Starman series that Everything You Know Is Wrong- he'd actually been essentially KILLED and replaced by Prince Gavyn, the fourth Starman, when Gavyn became the very energy bolt that struck him in the first place! Why that was done I have no idea- maybe Robinson just didn't feel like dealing with an extra character, and it was easier to merge them? Or maybe (and I'm realizing this is more likely), he was annoyed at the sheer number of Starmen and sought to get more of them out of the way. Though Payton's memories apparently "re-wrote" Gavyn's personality a bit, to answer the "well wouldn't we have known over FORTY ISSUES if the main hero was actually an alien prince?" problem.

-Ares includes him as one of his "Red Guardian Characters", having enjoyed the book. And I can certainly empathize with anyone who was pissed off that Robinson was like "LOL too bad he never actually existed!" like that.

-His costume's not bad, though- the "Star" design is very iconic to Superheroics, and can be used in just about any manner on a costume. Though one is a bit TOO colorful for my tastes. He's a good PL 9 Rookie Hero with some decent powers and is quite expensive- thanks to Tattooed Man for linking me to his own build of the guy, to allow me to modify my own. He's a rookie, but very powerful- he never beat anyone important, but he would fit in well on a high-end Superteam and not embarass himself.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatanna! Dr. Occult! Guardian! The Newsboy Legion! Starman!))

Post by Ares »

Spam wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 12:26 am I have my own thoughts on the Gavyn/Will Payton debacle, but I'm sure Ares will express my point just fine without me having to gather my scattered thoughts.
My own thoughts on the Gavyn/Payton debacle are pretty well known at this point. Jab can probably go back through his old threads and find at least three instances of me rambling about them, and my thoughts haven't changed much over time.

. . . . but what the Hell. Will's definitely one of my Red Guardian characters so I'll give it another go.

I actually own Gavyn's first appearance, and he was definitely more of a PL 10 type hero. His blasts were decently powerful, he could fly, and he had a limited immunity to energy attacks, but beyond that he was more or less just a scrapper. He could beat up a bunch of guards hand-to-hand, so he was a solid scrapper, but he wasn't immensely powerful by any means. He definitely wasn't on the same playing field as Mongul or Superman. Mongul and Gavyn technically had 'a fight' that involved Gavyn blasting Mongul, Mongul laughing it off and then knocking Gavyn out with a casual backhand.

His biggest feat was being virtually immune to solar energy, as he actually was able to fly into his own sun without harm. His whole schtick was absorbing solar energy, but he needed the wristbands to be able to harness that power, otherwise he was limited to just being able to survive in space.

Will Payton was, generally speaking, MUCH more powerful than Gavyn was. Gavyn appeared to be an alien that absorbed solar energy and with his gauntlets could channel that power to certain effects. Payton was actually a living star with a human-shaped container.

Physically he was a solid mid-level hero, with his first big strength feat being lifting a 50 piece of construction equipment, and then was able to slug it out with guys like the Parasite, Blockbuster, giant robots and the like. He could survive in space like Gavyn, but his flight speed was much slower, topping out only around Mach 1 or 2 while Gavyn seemed to be able to handle interstellar flight. He was completely bulletproof, and while he could get knocked out by superior strength, the only major time he was injured was when someone phased a knife into his skin. This actually proved to be a very bad idea, since like I said, Payton was a miniature star with a human shaped container, and piercing that container caused a violent explosion that nearly killed the idiot who had stabbed Will (aka, Deadline).

So in addition to being a solid mid-level flying brick that didn't need to breath, Will also had a few other abilities like his ability to change his shape and voice. It turned out since his body was just a container for the energy inside of him, he could re-shape it to a degree. And naturally, as essentially a miniature star, his most powerful ability was generating energy in the form of light, heat and quasi-kinetic force. He seemed like he had top-tier energy generation ability, though he often had to 'build up' higher levels of power rather than just being able to unleash it all at once.

He also had a Wonder Man-like immunity to power absorption due to his 'inhuman' nature. When the Parasite tried to absorb Will's power, for instance, it failed because Will basically isn't 'organic' enough to qualify. Likewise, when the Gene Bomb went off and caused Earth's metahuman population to lose control of their abilities, Will was unaffected because his powers weren't based on the Meta-Gene.

Ultimately, Will was actually a fun little collection of powers, a flying blaster brick who was generally mid-tier in most respects save for his high end energy blasts, but also had some unique immunities and utility powers.

Will was also definitely a late 80s/early 90s attempt by DC to have a 'Marvel' style hero, as Will was definitely a Peter Parker style everyman hero who had issues, but was ultimately a very moral, good-natured guy. Roger Stern did a great job with the book, IMO, and it was a shame when he left it. He did some solid work building up the supporting cast, making Will likeable yet flawed, etc. It's honestly refreshing to have a likeable, genuinely heroic hero compared to how relentlessly snarky and mean-spirited a lot of modern comics are.

Hot take: I vastly prefer Roger Stern's Starman run to James Robinson's Starman run. Robinson's run isn't 'bad' per say, but I honestly think it got a lot of its praise due to the unique art and the fact that it was one of the early examples of an 'anti-superhero' superhero book. Jack was the opposite of most superheroes at the time: he didn't wear a costume, didn't like superheroes, most of his enemies weren't supervillains, and in fact, he seemed to actively poke fun at traditional superhero stuff. He had a much more 'noir' style approach to stuff, and anytime a traditional superhero showed up, they tended to not fair so well. And I can definitely appreciate a continuity nut, but the tying of a lot of those Starman mythos together just seemed . . . unnecessary. Overall, I'm of the mind the book mostly got the praise it did for the art and for just being something different at the time, basically a slightly more superheroic version of Hellblazer with a sci-fi bend.

And Robinson definitely did Will dirty with the idea that Will had been dead all this time and Gavyn was basically animating his corps. They tried to be somewhat ambivalent about whether or not that was actually true, but it was definitely the route they wound up going.

Then DC brings Will back later, but now he's some kind of weird . . . Adam Warlock-style 'in tune with the multiverse' guy. Basically just another example of how overly complicated and needlessly convoluted DC has gotten in recent years. It's like Scott Snyder, Geoff Johns, Jason Aaron and John Hickman were all trying to out-complicate each other, and the result was a mess.

So yeah, Will is definitely one of my Red Guardian characters . . . and much like my other favorite heroes at DC, he's gotten nothing but crap flung at him for a while now.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatanna! Guardian! The Newsboy Legion! Starman I-V!)

Post by EternalPhoenix »

My father actually owns (or owned, I dunno anymore) Will Payton's debut issue. I know I've read it. It inspired the original iteration of my Starman and Starfamily. But reading about his powers I'm shocked how much carried over when I decided to actually codify why all of them could do what they did. Dammit, brain. You forget when I get stuff from, but the stuff itself? Hell, no.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatanna! Guardian! The Newsboy Legion! Starman I-V!)

Post by Ares »

Heh, and Jab posted up Will while I was getting my ramble on.

*EDIT* And he actually mentioned me and my self-admitted Red Guardian love for the guy.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Zatanna! Guardian! The Newsboy Legion! Starman I-V!)

Post by Ken »

Robinson's treatment of Will Payton is what actually got me to stop reading Starman volume 2.

Too many stories treated him like a teenager. And the whole Gavyn took over Will thing was too stupid for words.

You're an alien prince, and a hero to your people... you sacrifice your life saving your people from an anti-matter cloud from beyond. Months later, you wake up on an unknown world. Perhaps the planet "Earth" that the Kryptonian "Superman" lives on (assuming that issue of DCCP is in continuity somehow). You have powers, so a few weeks into having this new life, you fly to San Antonio, Texas for a job interview and you do the most natural thing in the world for an extra-terrestrial on an unfamiliar world to do: you sing an old Monkees song.

Maybe the real Will Payton Starman was on "Earth-85"... or maybe he was Zero Hour-ed. But I have all 45 issues of volume one of Starman and that wasn't any alien, and Marie and Sadie weren't the same person, and volume one was head-and-shoulders better than volume two.
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