Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

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Jabroniville
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The Comedian

Post by Jabroniville »

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THE COMEDIAN (Edward Blake)
Created By:
Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons
First Appearance: Watchmen #1 (Sept. 1986)
Role: Golden Age Hero, Gun-Toting Killer, Government Killer
Group Affiliations: The Minutemen
PL 8 (108)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 5 (+8)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+9)
Deception 5 (+8)
Expertise (Government Agent) 9 (+11)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 5 (+8)
Investigation 7 (+10)
Perception 5 (+8)
Persuasion 3 (+6)
Stealth 1 (+5)
Vehicles 2 (+7)

Advantages:
Benefit (Rank- Elite Operative), Equipment 8 (Rifle +6, Tear Gas, Knife, Leather Armor +1), Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Critical (Rifle), Ranged Attack 5

Offense:
Unarmed +9 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Knife +8 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Rifle +10 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Tear Gas +6 Area (+6 Ranged Affliction, DC 16)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +9 (DC 19), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +4 (+5 Leather Armor), Fortitude +5, Will +6

Complications:
Motivation (Greed)- The Comedian exists as a masked operative, killing people for the government. This affords him a lavish lifestyle, which appears to be part of the point.
Responsibility (Nihilism)- Blake is convinced the whole world is doomed, which fuels a very selfish, nihilistic viewpoint. He assumes that a nuclear holocaust will kill everyone, so why bother trying to improve the world? "Listen, once you figure out what a JOKE everything is, being the COMEDIAN'S the only thing that makes SENSE" This leaves him with a sociopathic outlook and lets him engage in incredibly amoral behavior, such as murdering innocent reporters or a poor woman he's left pregnant.
Reputation (Rapist)- The Comedian is well-known to many for having attempted to rape Sally Jupiter at a meeting of the Minutemen.

Total: Abilities: 58 / Skills: 46--23 / Advantages: 17 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 10 (108)

"The Comedian is Dead":
-The Comedian is one of the most important characters in Watchmen, and was even the guy who started the whole story off, which is funny because every appearance he makes is a posthumous one- the discovery of his murder introduces us to everyone: Rorschach is the only investigator to figure out that Edward Blake, who was viciously beaten and thrown through the window of his New York City penthouse, was The Comedian- a masked superhero-turned-government killer. He then tells a variety of other characters this, explaining some things to the audience as well. We get into the full story of his character arc as we go on- he starts off as a Golden Age hero- younger than the others, he's a perverse spitfire, arrogant and brash. He attempts to seduce Sally Jupiter, but when she rebuffs him he VICIOUSLY beats her and prepares to rape her until Hooded Justice stops him. Badly beaten himself, he taunts the hero with the fact that this might be his sexual fetish, and is expelled from the Minutemen.

-We learn, too, that Blake never retired like the others did, instead becoming a government-paid killer. Hanging out with the movers and shakers of Washington, he becomes numb to the fate of the world, breaking up a "Crimebusters" meeting by cutting through Captain Metropolis's "bullshit" and saying the whole world's doomed anyways, so why bother? Subtle backstory says he murdered the reporters Woodward & Bernstein, whose incredible expose in real life led to the destruction of the Nixon Presidency (in the Watchmen universe, Nixon is notably STILL the President, having successfully petitioned to add more terms after A) no "Watergate" scandal befell him thanks to those murders, and B) Dr. Manhattan winning the Vietnam War allowed him unprecedented popularity).

"What's happened to the American Dream?" "It Came True. You're LOOKIN' at it":
-Edward Blake is truly a disturbed individual, though his casual insight is actually what inspires Ozymandias, the smartest man in the world, to start up his own plot to save society ("He opened my eyes", Adrian Veidt says, "Only the BEST comedians do that"). "The smartest man on a cinder" he calls Veidt, suggesting that within thirty years atomic death will hit the world. Even so, we see his actions in Vietnam- as Uncle Sam's operative, he engages in direct hostilities in the War- when he suggests he's heading back home, he's confronted by a woman he's obviously left pregnant. Infuriated to learn he doesn't care about her and plans on abandoning the country he hates, she slashes his face ("I think you will always remember us as long as you LIVE"), and he pulls out his gun and shoots her dead on the spot. And though Dr. Manhattan, who saw the whole event, is horrified, he's stunned when Eddie cuts through HIS veneer, too- "Yeah... and you WATCHED me. You coulda changed the gun into steam or the bullets into mercury or the bottle into snowflakes", but he didn't lift a finger and watched Eddie commit cold-blooded murder on a pregnant woman, because humans just don't MEAN all that much to Jon ("I've WATCHED you. You're driftin' outta touch, Doc").

-Another scene features him & Dan "Nite Owl" Dreiberg as fighting an anti-vigilante riot (a PRO POLICE riot? Will wonders never cease?)- Blake pretty much makes everything worse because he starts firing his gear on the crowd, pretty much with abandon and a desire to start shit. He admits "Me, I kinda LIKE it when things get weird, you know? I like it when all the cards are on the table" and how he tries to keep things in proportion and always see the funny side, then laughing over the "Who Watches the Watchmen?" graffiti.

-There is some implied depth to the man, but we don't see much of it. So "softness" he shows Sally leads to their affair, and the birth of Laurie- this breaks up Sally and her husband. Laurie, who doesn't realize all this, hates Eddie once she discovers the rape attempt (revealed by Hollis Mason in his book Under the Hood), and is disgusted when he says it happened "only once" ("as if that makes it BETTER than if he'd done it more times!"). He's sad and lonely in parts due to how alone he is in the world, and he's finally broken by the horrific realization of what Ozymandias is doing- a random mission has him stumble upon Adrian's island of horror writers, artists and scientists, building a deadly creature that will kill millions of people. Blake is shattered thinking about all the horror this could unleash, and confesses everything to an old enemy (the reformed criminal Moloch), who doesn't understand what he's babbling about ("I mean, I done some bad things. I did bad things to WOMEN. I shot kids! In 'Nam I shot kids... but I never did anything like, like..."). Finally, he bawls a darkly ironic "I mean, what's FUNNY? What's so goddamned FUNNY? I don't get it. Somebody EXPLAIN it to me"- The Comedian doesn't get the joke. And it's this that reveals why Blake was killed at the beginning- to cover his tracks, Adrian beat him up in his own home and threw him out the window.

The Comedian's Capabilities:
-The Comedian is a powerful adversary, being strong, tough and mean. Unarmed, he's PL 6 like many Golden Agers- big and strong but human. During a fight (entertainingly described as based off of a "misunderstanding", like what always happened in Marvel Comics), Ozymandias notes that though he lost, Blake had "a devastating uppercut- little else". With a Rifle, he's a PL 8 ranged fighter.
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Davies
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Sally Jupiter! Nite Owl! Rorschach!)

Post by Davies »

It's been suggested that the most horrible part, to him, is not even the deaths that will be caused by the act ... but what if it works, and the world is suddenly no longer doomed? Then all the stuff that he's done that didn't matter, because the world was doomed, suddenly matters a great deal.

I'm not sure I buy this -- if anything, he seems uncertain that it will work, speculating out loud that Manhattan is going to behave in a way contrary to Veidt's expectations.
"I'm sorry. I love you. I'm not sorry I love you."
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Sally Jupiter! Nite Owl! Rorschach! The Comedian!)

Post by Ares »

It's interesting that Moore gave both the Joker and the Comedian the same motivation: They see the world for the joke it is, that nothing matters, so all they can do is laugh.

It makes me wonder if his decision to turn Peacemaker into the Comedian, to have his original outfit be clown themed, was some kind of of prototype for his Killing Joke story a little later, or if he just realized what worked for Eddie might work for the Joker. I wonder if that says anything about Moore's thoughts on humor.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: The Psychic Vagina Plant Monster

Post by greycrusader »

Ken wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 12:14 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:00 pm Watchmen's Origins & After-Effects:
-Watchmen has its origins in Alan Moore's concepts for when DC bought the rights to the Charlton Comics characters- Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, Nightshade, Peacemaker and more. However, his ideas submitted to DC were as character-breaking as they were incredible. Nowadays he'd just be allowed to do it and permanently-alter many of those characters forever, but back in the '80s someone was like "Hey, what about the future?" and wisely asked Moore to just create his OWN version of these characters for his 12-part mega-series, so DC could use the regular Charlton guys later. It says something that even ridiculous-looking doofuses like Peacemaker and forgotten worthless ones like Nightshade and Peter Cannon were afforded such respect.
If one digs into it, there are rumours first envisioned this story not with the Charlton Heroes, but with the Archie/MLJ/Red Circle heroes. He adapted his pitch to use the Charlton Heroes when Dick Giordano was looking for ideas for the Charlton heroes after DC acquired his babies.

But.... have you ever concerned if Moore had pitched his idea to a smaller, different American comic book line...

Jackie Jokers is dead.

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That's actually pretty darn funny, Ken. And yes, I suppose nowadays it would simply be deemed an out of continuity story or else just seen as something another writer would have to fix in the future if he/she wanted to use the characters in another way entirely.

I didn't know that bit about the MLJ heroes...I can see a few of them mapping easily, with Black Hood I and II standing in for the Nite-Owls, the Hangman for Hooded Justice, maybe the Wizard for Ozymandias, Fox for Rorschach, and a few others work okay...but who would play the Dr. Manhattan role? And did MLJ ever have any super-heroines besides Darkling (who was a blip in terms of appearances)?

All my best
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Sally Jupiter! Nite Owl! Rorschach! The Comedian!)

Post by Ken »

My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
Jabroniville
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The Silk Spectre (Laurie)

Post by Jabroniville »

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THE SILK SPECTRE II (Laurie Juspeczyk)
Created By:
Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons
First Appearance: Watchmen #1 (Sept. 1986)
Role: Legacy Heroine, Retired Hero
Group Affiliations: None
PL 6 (72)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Athletics 6 (+7)
Deception 5 (+7)
Expertise (Streetwise) 5 (+6)
Insight 2 (+5)
Investigation 4 (+7)
Intimidation 1 (+3)
Perception 3 (+6)
Stealth 2 (+5)

Advantages:
Equipment 2 (Gun +4), Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Ranged Attack 6

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Pistol +8 (+4 Ranged Damage, DC 19)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +2, Fortitude +4, Will +6

Complications:
Relationship (Sally- Mother)- Laurie and her mother bicker constantly- Laurie says "God knows I'm not my mother's BIGGEST fan, but some things shouldn't happen to ANYBODY" regarding the Comedian's attempted rape.
Relationship (Dr. Manhattan)- Laurie and Jon have been lovers for years- he left his first girlfriend to be with her. She seems attracted to him, but finds his lack of humanity and inability to connect with her emotionally increasingly awful, to the point where she finally leaves him. She points out, correctly, this his big reaction to her abandoning him will be to silently get ready for his TV interview and do science stuff.
Relationship (Dan Dreiberg)- The two are old, platonic friends, but finally take solace in each other after she leaves Dr. Manhattan. They appear to be more a relationship of equals.

Total: Abilities: 44 / Skills: 28--14 / Advantages: 12 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 12 (72)

Laurie- The Also-Ran:
-Laurie occupies one of the stranger roles in Watchmen, as she seems to be the most put-together of the heroes, yet is arguably the weakest link of the lot both in capabilities and in the story, where she just kinda comes off as hopeless and whiny. Like at least washed-up ol' Dan still has all his cool gear and investigative know-how. Laurie just shows up and mostly complains about things or gets her ass kicked.

-Laurie is the successor to her mother, Sally Jupiter, in a very obvious case of "Stage Mom" syndrome- Sally had retired as a heroine, but had raised her daughter to be just like her, and follow in her footsteps. We see very little of Silk Spectre II's career, and instead the story focuses on her immediate attraction to the bright blue Dr. Manhattan, whom she promptly steals from his then-girlfriend. In adulthood, Laurie seems well-off and decent enough- she's annoyed by Rorschach (who acts as if Hollis Mason's depiction of the Comedian's attempted rape of her mother is in question) and has a friendly relationship with Dan Dreiberg, and seemed to happily hang up her costume when the Keene Act banned vigilantism. At only thirty-five years old, she's the youngest regular character, but bemoans that she's mostly just a "kept woman" who's paid by the government to "Get an H-Bomb LAID every once in a while", as her mother puts it in her typical manner.

Silk Spectres I & II:
-Laurie's relationship with her mother is an interesting one- they're not truly adversarial, but disagree on many things. Laurie's horrified reaction to the "Tijuana Bibles" Sally was keeping around (gifts from adoring fanboys) is classic ("Oh God, mother! This is disgusting!" she responds to the graphic sex contained within the amateur comic), and there seems to be some resentment towards Sally pushing Laurie into heroics. When Rorschach casts some doubt on Mason's story, Laurie says "God knows I'm not my mother's BIGGEST admirer, but some things shouldn't happen to anybody!"- hardly the words of an adoring daughter. But they seem like a legit mother/daughter duo, behaving amicably and arguing like real people (like Sally's passive-aggressive coughing and opening every window in the house when Laurie starts smoking).

-Laurie's relationship with Jon is another big one- she's sexually attracted to him and they seemed to have had an emotional connection years ago, but his increasing lack of attachment to his humanity is becoming an issue. When he creates a "duplicate" for some intimate time with Laurie, she FREAKS in terror at the sight of two of him, and it gets even worse when she realizes he's cast off an extra clone just to do some scientific research while they're boning- ya know, divided attention and stuff. After a fight, she seeks solace with Dan, commenting on Jon's lack of humanity ("The way he LOOKS at things, like he can't remember what they ARE and doesn't particularly CARE. This world, the real world, to HIM it's like walking through mist and all the people are like SHADOWS..."), and the two actually get together.

-Laurie is later sent to friggin' MARS to be with Jon, who seems un-phased by her affair, and instead gives her a long narration of his thought process and how wonderful he thinks life and humanity actually are. She is shattered first by the revelation that the Comedian is actually her birth father (Jon makes her see this via a sequential story of her life), then by seeing the massacre in New York ("Tandoori to go", she weeps. "That's all these people wanted- tandoori to go"), and is the most practical hero at Ozymandias's Karnak base- she brings a gun and SHOOTS HIM. Alas, he has Super Martial Arts Powers and easily kicks her after catching the bullet, and she's out of the fight. Both her & Dan decide to keep Adrian's secret, and even become vigilantes once more- her idea now is to wear black leather & armor- thus reflecting the Comedian. She at least makes good with her mother in the end- "I love you, mom- you never did anything wrong by me".

-In the Watchmen movie, Malin Akerman actually got the biggest "push" of all the actors, most of whom remained obscure names with roles in smaller productions (Jeffry Dean Morgan got a much bigger push from being Negan in The Walking Dead many years later, for example). Before this, she'd really just been "The Naked Girl" in many movies (like Harold & Kumar), and this one actually gave her some more speaking parts in larger films- it's likely her willingness to do the role's requisite nudity got her the job over a more "name" actress, and "A Big Nude Role" is still a surefire way to start one's acting career if you're an actress in the world of drooling Hollywood producers... I don't think it's in any way a mistake that Margot Robbie got role after role after role in a mega-push after showing EVERYTHING in The Wolf of Wall Street. If that don't send a signal to prospective actresses eager for a superstar push, I don't know what will.

Laurie's Abilities:
-Laurie is, unfortuantely, the least-capable of her allies, lacking their physical strength, super-powers or even gadgets. However, she's the only one to carry a GUN, which comes the closest to damaging Ozymandias out of everybody. Otherwise she's PL 5- her & Dan still make short work of that gang of knot-tops that tries to mug them (Laurie immediately breaks a man's arm and then grabs another by the testicles, violently crushing them with her hand), though it exhausts both of them. She's 5-10 years younger than all the other heroes, being a teenager during the "Crimebusters" meeting.
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Doctor Manhattan

Post by Jabroniville »

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"Thermodynamic miracles... events with odds against so astronomical they're effectively impossible, like oxygen spontaneously becoming gold. I long to observe such a thing. And yet, in each human coupling, a thousand million sperm vie for a single egg. Multiply those odds by countless generations, against the odds of your ancestors being alive; meeting; siring this precise son; that exact daughter... Until your mother loves a man she has every reason to hate, and of that union, of the thousand million children competing for fertilization, it was you, only you, that emerged. To distill such a specific form from that chaos of improbability, like turning air to gold... that is the crowning of unlikelihood. The thermodynamic miracle."

DOCTOR MANHATTAN (Jon Osterman)
Created By:
Alan Moore & Dave Gibbons
First Appearance: Watchmen #1 (Sept. 1986)
Role: The Only Superhuman On Earth
Group Affiliations: The U.S. Government
PL 14 (309)
STRENGTH
4/12 STAMINA -- AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 10 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE -1

Skills:
Expertise (Science) 6 (+16)
Intimidation 8 (+7)
Perception 14 (+14)
Stealth 2 (+5)
Technology 6 (+16)

Advantages:
Beginner's Luck, Eidetic Memory, Fearless, Inventor, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 8

Powers:
Immunity 30 (Fortitude Effects) [30]
Protection 8 [8]
Immunity 7 (Vacuum, Cold, Heat, Pressure, Radiation, Suffocation 2) (Extras: Affects Others Only +0) [7]
Immortality 20 [40]
Force Field 8 (Extras: Affects Others) [16]
Growth 8 (Str & Toughness +8, +8 Mass, +4 Intimidation, -4 Dodge/Parry, +1 Speed, -8 Stealth) -- (30 feet) (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) [17]
Create 10 (Extras: Movable) [30]
Flight 4 (30 mph) [8]

"See Events So Small And Fast That They Can Hardly Be Said to Have Occurred At All" Senses 24 (Microvision, Extended Vision 4, Analytical Vision, Precognition, Postcognition, Detect Life- Ranged 4 & Radius) [24]
"Replication" Summon Duplicate 4 (Extras: Controlled) [12]

"Manhattan Transfer" Teleport 12 (Feats: Increased Mass 4) (Extras: Extended, Easy, Accurate) (64) -- [70]
  • AE: Teleport 5 (Extras: Attack, Area) (20)
  • AE: "Disintegration" Damage 14 (Extras: Perception-Ranged +2) (42)
  • AE: Movement 2 (Space Travel) (Feats: Increased Mass 4) (Extras: Instantaneous) (10)
  • AE: Telekinesis 10 (Extras: Perception-Ranged) (30)
  • AE: Transform (Anything to Anything Else) 10 (50)
  • AE: Insubstantial 4 (20)
Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Giant Size +8 (+12 Damage, DC 27)
Disintegration -- (+14 Perception-Ranged Damage, DC 29)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +8 (+16 Force Field/Growth), Fortitude --, Will +9

Complications:
Relationship (Laurie Juspeczyk)- Laurie and Jon have been lovers for years- he left his first girlfriend to be with her. She seems attracted to him, but finds his lack of humanity and inability to connect with her emotionally increasingly awful, to the point where she finally leaves him. She points out, correctly, this his big reaction to her abandoning him will be to silently get ready for his TV interview and do science stuff.
Responsibility (Inhuman)- Jon's powers are so incredible, and his senses so far beyond humanity's, that he lacks emotional connection to much of the world. He doesn't mourn death, sees events happening simultaneously so nothing surprises him, and more.
Power Loss (Tachyon Interference)- Jon's powers are garbled by tachyon interference- a monumental effort must be undertaken, but it clouds Jon's senses of what's about to happen ("it could theoretically be caused by nuclear fallout, but...") and even slows his arrival at one point.

Total: Abilities: 42 / Skills: 36--18 / Advantages: 13 / Powers: 222 / Defenses: 14 (309)

"Superman Exists... and He's American":
-And of course we come to the OTHER most commonly-cited aspects of Watchmen, and perhaps its most notable aspect: Dr. Manhattan, the only superhuman on Earth. This is where Moore REALLY dives into just how crazy a thing it would be in the real world if this kind of thing happened. Made worse by the fact that Jon is a full-on God who can do nearly anything. The world shifts around him- his mere existence makes the Vietnam War (the first big conflict after his introduction in the late '50s) a total cakewalk, resulting in a U.S. victory, more terms for Richard Nixon, and more. His scientific breakthroughs make electric cars the default, changing the way cars look in this 1980s story (they're much rounder and all hook up to charging stations, despite an otherwise gritty NYC). And he destabilizes global politics, Russia being unwilling to make a variety of moves for fear of instant annihilation from the American Superman- to the point that when he abandons Earth later on, Russia promptly invades Afghanistan and nearly sets the world into a nuclear conflict.

-Moore also delves into just how bizarre Jon's thought process is- given superpowers by a radiation accident ("The light is taking me to pieces" he remembers), he now exists as a being that has massive transmutation powers. He can shapeshift, teleport and reform matter, and he views all of time happening simultaneously. In one of the most fascinating comics ever written, he goes through his whole origin in perfect detail (since, to him, it's happening right now as well as years ago), deals with his origins (putting himself together after his "intrinsic field" is removed as he used to put together watches as a boy, until his father learned of the Atomic Bomb and made him study physics instead), meets people knowing how their relationship will end (remembering himself sleeping with a sixteen-year old Laurie Juspeczyk while knowing her thirty-five year old self will leave him after an argument), and more. He doesn't appear surprised when anything happens because he ALREADY saw it happen and it's more of an "oh, that's interesting" kind of thing to him. Moore details his simultaneous memories while Jon sits on friggin' MARS, building a giant glass building. It's very obvious that his relationship with Laurie is the only reason he has a connection to ANYTHING on Earth- she's kept around by the U.S. government to keep Jon happy ("of course, you don't have to get an H-Bomb LAID every once in a while" Sally, Laurie's mom, mocks with great amusement), and when she finally leaves him, his last connection to Earth is gone and he doesn't care about much of ANYTHING. As usual, it's the Comedian who sees the truth in everything- he knows Jon's losing touch with humanity and doesn't care about it.

"I've WATCHED you. You're Driftin' Out Of Touch, Doc":
-Jon, of course, isn't like the rest of humanity. This is shown pretty much immediately as he's not only bright blue, but completely naked and standing fifty feet tall. He shrinks to have a conversation with Rorschach, who "must warn the invincible man that someone means to kill him", but right away we know something's "off". And they don't talk about his nudity much, but the implication is there that he's losing touch with humanity- he has no notion of shame or "decency" so why would he care if he's naked? This is furthered by his general lack of emotions (beyond getting stern when Rorschach displeases Laurie) and bewilderment during an argument with Laurie later on. It's the Comedian who points out how Jon tends to see people as "shadows" moving through the mist, while Laurie predicts (correctly) that Jon's response to her leaving him is to watch science stuff happen and then calmly prepare for his upcoming TV interview.

-He simply doesn't EXPERIENCE anything the way a typical human would, and has really lost touch with humanity. We see this further in his origin issue, as he more or less callously leaves Janey Slater, his lover for years, because he's noticing her aging and sees the younger Laurie... and I mean, he KNOWS he gets with Laurie, so he's not bothering to fight any of this, and seems unclear on how he's supposed to feel with a teary-eyed Janey packing her things and leaving him over it. As the Watchmen Wiki puts it, " From his radically altered perspective, almost all human concerns appear pointless and without obvious merit."

-The Comedian even taunts Jon with his inhumanity, pointing out that Jon watched him shoot a pregnant woman dead while being powerful enough to stop it. He tells someone he doesn't mourn death because "a dead body and a living one contain the same number of atoms- life and death are unquantifiable abstracts", and blankly tells Laurie that their future consists of her in tears among dead bodies. Like, he's AWARE of all this stuff, but he just doesn't CARE. In part because he's so far above humanity as to be a god looking at ants, but because he's experiencing everything in his life simultaneously so nothing is a surprise. Again, Laurie kind of keeps him in his last bit of humanity- he abandons Earth to whatever fate it has when she leaves him, but changes his mind after realizing just how unlikely her own birth was- the child of a woman and a man she had every reason to hate, she is the ultimate "thermodynamic miracle", and convinces him of humanity's worth. And so he arrives to help the heroes, for all the good it does.

How Dr. Manhattan Ends Up:
-Dealing with Dr. Manhattan is, of course, the biggest part of Ozymandias's plan. A man who can see the future is a bit tricky to outwit, but thankfully Moore kinda writes his way out of it by having Ozy throw "tachyons" all over the place (his own genius, as well as access to billions of dollars, plays this off), which makes Jon unable to see time past a certain point. His vision clouded, he sees the aftermath of the destruction of New York but is powerless to stop it, and even arrives later than he'd expected! When he finally confronts Adrian Veidt at Karnak, he is lured into another great invention, and vaporized... but while Veidt was unsure as to whether or not it would work, he's immediately set upon by Jon again- "Putting my intrinsic field back together was the first thing I learned how to do", he says, as he grows to giant size and nearly smashes Veidt. However, when he too is aware that Ozymandias's mass slaughter has saved the world, he does nothing- even killing Rorschach for suggesting he'll reveal the deception to the world. But when Adrian, in a moment of humility, begs Jon to answer "Did I do the right thing in the end?", Jon just smiles and says "Oh, Adrian- NOTHING ever ends", and leaves for parts unknown without answering Adrian's follow-up question. He disappears saying humanity is endlessly fascinating, suggesting "Perhaps I'll create some".

-The one funny thing about this whole deal is in a world without superpowers, ANY superhuman would have been incredible, so it's odd that Moore decided to create an invincible, godlike one. But he probably had the notion for such an alien, aloof being and was off to the races in one of the few places it could fit. That Dr. Manhattan has his origins in Captain Atom is odd, because Atom was a flying brick with radiation powers- not a god.

Doctor Manhattan's Powers:
-Doctor Manhattan is, expectedly, a supremely powerful character. Effectively immortal and able to take things apart just by looking at him, he's a telekinetic Blaster who can create stuff from seemingly nothing. He reconstitutes a broken glass and liquid down to the molecule, vaporizes the dangerous Rorschach with a thought, and easily returns from having his "intrinsic field" separated, growing to giant size and nearly smashing Ozymandias. In the "real world plus a bit" world of Watchmen, he's effectively the supreme being, but in a Marvel or DC world, he could be nearly any Power Level and sorta "fit". The real key is how versatile he is- Teleport, Create, Blasting AND Immortality combined make him impossible to keep down.
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Re: The Psychic Vagina Plant Monster

Post by Ken »

greycrusader wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 3:18 amI didn't know that bit about the MLJ heroes...I can see a few of them mapping easily, with Black Hood I and II standing in for the Nite-Owls, the Hangman for Hooded Justice, maybe the Wizard for Ozymandias, Fox for Rorschach, and a few others work okay...but who would play the Dr. Manhattan role? And did MLJ ever have any super-heroines besides Darkling (who was a blip in terms of appearances)?
MLJ heroines: er- Fly-Girl and Pow-Girl are the only other two I can think of.

Based on the Moore quotation on the page I linked to
"I wanted more average super-heroes, like the Mighty Crusaders line ... [the] original idea had started off with the dead body of the Shield being pulled out of a river somewhere."
I suspect a lot of the story beats and characters weren't worked out. That it was just a rough story idea that he didn't start fleshing out until he had the Charlton characters in mind.

My best guess for the Dr. M. character would be the Fly/Fly-Man since the powers he got from his ring eventually got pretty diverse, Plus the change from Tommy to the Fly would be radical enough that I could see Moore going all Miracle Man with it.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Rorschach! The Comedian! Silk Spectre! Dr. Manhattan!)

Post by Skavenger »

There was a lot I didn't like about the events of New 52, Rebirth, and the fact that Doc Manhattan was behind the whole thing. The series that actually dealt with the DC universe facing off against Doc Manhattan and everything else was rather clunky, but I did appreciate one fact about it.

Doc Manhattan sees everything at once, and the last thing he sees before darkness is Superman charging at him with a fist raised. He's convinced it's because Superman kills him, or Doc Manhattan destroys everything. In the end, it's Superman punching out someone about to attack Manhattan, and he offers Doc a third choice, this is when Doc changes and starts acting to save everybody. And his idealism and hope changes Doc Manhattan and has him restore the Justice Society (thus saving the Kents and bringing back the Legion, long story) and even acting to make his own original world better, since it's now part of the DC multiverse (all of which Weidt had planned, actually. "If I couldn't convince you to use your powers to save our world, I was certain HE could. All I had to do was arrange the confrontation.") Doc Manhattan even realizes what it was he was missing that Superman had, and the last pages are him taking a small child, raising him to infant age, and it's implied he gave the boy his powers and then dropped him off at the Hollis household (Dan and Janie, now retired, living under new names, with a daughter of their own) saying "they'll know what to do" in raising him right.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Rorschach! The Comedian! Silk Spectre! Dr. Manhattan!)

Post by Davies »

"A live body and a dead body contain the same number of particles. Struc--"

"No they don't."

"... excuse me?"

"Bowel and bladder release. Also, blood spatter, gray matter from inside fractured skull. All sorts of particles once on the inside, now on the outside. Not contained."

"... oh."
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Rorschach! The Comedian! Silk Spectre! Dr. Manhattan!)

Post by catsi563 »

Always thought that the movies version of Veidts plan was the better one, the alien was silly honestly because unless you eliminate EVERY person involved in the creation the truth gets out eventually.

making Dr Manhattan the bad guy was brilliant because it gives the world the all powerful bogeyman it needs, and the plan can be done anonymously with fewer moving parts to spill the truth. Add in that with Doctor Manhattans powers means they have a future legend they can use to insure the peace remains, dont go to war because the Doctor may come for you
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Rorschach! The Comedian! Silk Spectre! Dr. Manhattan!)

Post by pathfinderq1 »

Okay, I'm just going to be the odd person out on this, but I absolutely hated Watchmen. Alan Moore has always been kind of hit-or-miss for me, but this one just struck out on just about every level- characters (especially the characters), story, even the art just hit all the wrong notes.

I did kind of like the HBO series though.

There, rant over, I feel better. Y'all can go on liking this, but if anyone else doesn't, just know you aren't alone in the great wide world of comics fandom.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Rorschach! The Comedian! Silk Spectre! Dr. Manhattan!)

Post by Tattooedman »

Nothing wrong with not liking it, to be honest I enjoy the movie more than the book.
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:45 pm
LOl- "The Tattooed Man"? What kind of ABSOLUTE DILDO would refer to himself as "The Tattooed Man" :P!?!
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Side Characters in Watchmen

Post by Jabroniville »

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SIDE WATCHMEN CHARACTERS:
* Watchmen has a fairly large cast of side characters who show up here or there- often serving as exposition or the "common man's" side of things. Nearly all of them are killed in the final moments of issue 11 by the arrival of Adrian Veidt's creature in New York.

BERNARD: An old guy who works at the newsstand, giving a lot of narration to things via a kid who sits there "Byrne-Stealing" pirate comics. Shows a simplistic, if friendly, worldview and reflects the common man's shock of Russia invading Afghanistan. Tries to be friendly with Bernie (when his wife died, "Our friends were HER friends", so he took the newspaper job to meet people), but gets rebuffed a lot. His stand is where Rorschach got his ultra-con newspaper The New Frontiersman and Joey got her Hustlers.

BERNIE: A young black kid who leans on the warm "charging post" (for electrical vehicles) and reads the pirate comics that coincide with the story. Gets annoyed at how random and weird the comics are.

JOEY: A large, fairly tough old-school lesbian who works for a cab company- gets Hustler from Bernard and complains about her girlfriend, a knot-top with a lot of ultra-modern Feminist books that Joey hates. Finally explodes at her ex in the end, attacking her and tearing up literature- this causes a scuffle that brings Joey's boss, his relative, both Bernies, the cops and the psychiatrist and his wife all together to die in the finale of issue 11.

DR. MALCOLM LONG: A cheerful black psychiatrist who works at the prison where Rorschach is held, investigating his condition. Long hopes to cure him, but is himself horrified by the results- learning all of Walter's backstory (obviously, Long is an exposition board) stuns him into submission and ruins his relationship with his wife as he's unable to think beyond it. In the end, he begs his wife to understand that he HAS to help people and tries to intervene in Joey's fight.

EDWARD "MOLOCH" JACOBI: The only supervillain seen in the book, Jacobi spent the Seventies in jail and has reformed, but is frequently harrassed and threatened by Rorschach over the "Mask Killer" conspiracy. Moloch was an old threat to the various heroes, being a pointy-eared (reflecting old villainous tropes of the Golden & Silver Ages) criminal mastermind who later became a pimp and drug-dealer- his enemies included the Comedian & Doctor Manhattan, so his continued survival is no doubt impressive. Murdered in the end to frame Rorschach and get him arrested by the police.

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BUBASTIS: A beautiful pink lynx seen with Adrian Veidt at his Karnak enclave. Largely there as a thing for him to talk to or show off (and a sign that he DOES care for SOMETHING alive), and also subtly shows just how advanced Adrian's knowledge is. This of course "sets up" the fact that he's capable of creating his massive "alien creature" in the story's climax. The death of Bubastis, who is killed when Dr. Manhattan is lured in to an intrinsic field remover, gives the climax and Veidt's crimes a more "personal" loss to him ("Bubastis... forgive me...") so it isn't just him killing anonymous (to him) people.

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THE COPS: A pair of detectives, both good at their jobs. They investigate the murder of Edward Blake, theorizing that there were multiple assailants (not realizing how elite Ozymandias was). Also decry Rorschach, and lead the mission that results in his capture. Investigate the murder of two children by their own father, who commits suicide, not wanting any of them to see the nuclear holocaust he sees as inevitable- this shows us the personal stake of the "common man" to the impending war that marks the series' climax. The blond cop also directly taunts Dan Dreiberg with his knowledge of Dan's secret ID as Nite Owl, causing them to spring Rorschach immediately- this seems to get him suspended in the end, as he's "off the clock" when he and his partner see Joey's fight with her girlfriend and try to intercede.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Rorschach! The Comedian! Silk Spectre! Dr. Manhattan!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

Bubastis's ears remind me of the caracal, but even more exaggerated. ..Now I'm wondering which Big Cat build could be used for her.
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