Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

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Jabroniville
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The Secret Six

Post by Jabroniville »

THE SECRET SIX:
-The heir apparent to Suicide Squad got its start with Villains United, a pre-Infinite Crisis book featuring a band of supervillains who had opposed Lex Luthor's "Secret Society", and were thus going against every bad guy in DC Comics. The six were some disparate villains- led by Scandal Savage (a new character), they were Ragdoll (son of the original), Catman (forgotten Jobber Villain-turned-badass), Deadshot (disinterested assassin), Cheshire (insane assassin) and one of Darkseid's lost Parademons. Written by Gail Simone at the peak of her ability, and Dale Eaglesham, one of the greatest artists in comics history, it was a FANTASTIC little book, and had all kinds of great moments.

The success of the book led to the ongoing Secret Six title, featuring the group (minus Parademon) in some new situations, usually acting as freelance killers who were bad, but not QUITE as bad as the people they were fighting. This made them some great villains to root for (this simple storytelling trick is seen in The Sopranos and The Shield as well- it allows the protagonists to be seen in a more positive light). Simone's penchant for disturbing, dark humor is great, and she has fun with the characters, most of whom were minor and thus free from editorial oversight and interference.

The book's only real flaw was that Simone has a BAD tendency towards "Tell, Don't Show" storytelling when it comes to characters doing bad-ass things. Bane and Catman managed to avert it with numerous feats, but we get a LOT of characters just standing around going "Wow, this charater is SO tough and SO bad-ass" that it's hard to take things seriously. The debut of a new crimeboss villain is basically just two straight issues of characters talking about HOW SCARY she is, and how "even the guys in Gotham are terrified of her". To the point that when we get the reveal, it falls a bit flat. Scandal Savage, too, gets little reason for her bad-ass rep. Even the first VU issue falls dangerously close to this, as Catman, a Joke Villain, shows up all ripped, and Talia al-Ghul is all "It's so clear that you've TRANSFORMED into this bad-ass new incarnation, dude", effectively trying to get the fans to see what she, as a Gail, is trying to pull off. But these things require CONVINCING- Catman later pulls off some kick-ass stuff (like saving the team from a lethal torturer) that cements his rep, but Gail is bad for just leaving it at the "words" part. It comes off as clumsy storytelling when there are so many instances of characters desperately trying to convince us that so-and-so is so insanely tough.

The book had a nice long run, and is probably Simone's best work ever. She worked really hard to put over this great new cast, so of course it was all nullified once the series ended and Gail moved on. She'd do some damage to her rep with the faltering Batgirl revamp (though most would put a good deal of blame on DC Editorial), especially in light of how much better it got later under a different creative team. And the concept would be swapped over to Suicide Squad in the Nu52.
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Parademon

Post by Jabroniville »

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PARADEMON
Created By:
Gail Simone & Dale Eaglesham
First Appearance: Villains United #1 (July 2005)
Role: Ascended Mook
PL 8 (75)
STRENGTH
6 STAMINA 6 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS -1 PRESENCE -1

Skills:
Expertise (Soldier) 4 (+4)
Intimidation 4 (+3)
Perception 2 (+1)
Ranged Combat (Blaster) 2 (+10)

Advantages:
Equipment 11 (Glider, Mother Box, Blaster, Armor +1), Ranged Attack 8

Powers:
Immunity 1 (Pain) [1]

Equipment:
"Mother Box"
Communication 5 (15)
Healing 2 (Feats: Stabilize, Regrowth) (2)
"Boom Tube" Movement 3 (Space Travel 3) (Extras: Portal +2) (Flaws: Distracting) (Activation -2) (7)
Equipment 5 (Powerful Computer, PDA, Lockpicks, etc.) (5)
Blaster 6 (Multiattack) (18)
"Glider" Flight 6 (Winged) (6)
"Armor" Protection 1 (1)

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Blaster +10 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +0

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +6 (+7 Armor), Fortitude +6, Will +4

Complications:
Relationship (Ragdoll III)- This Parademon loves Ragdoll's sense of humor. Despite the guy never telling any jokes. He just finds morbidity and desolation amusing.

Total: Abilities: 36 / Skills: 10--5 / Advantages: 20 / Powers: 1 / Defenses: 13 (75)

-Every villain's gotta have Mooks, and Darkseid has the Parademons- super-strong idiots who maintain his beloved "order". They are chosen from the most sociopathic and dangerous inhabitants of Apokolips, then trained with gliders. Villains United used one as a disposable member of the team- he provided much of the book's humor, as he found the "Clown" (Ragdoll III) incredibly amusing, despite the character never saying any jokes- he was just an insane weirdo. But this was actually pretty hilarious. In the end of the series, Parademon detonates all of the Mother Boxes he'd strapped to himself, saving the rest of the team but killing himself. Ragdoll tells him one final "joke", letting him know that he was dying billions of miles from his home, never having known love. Parademon laughs at this hilarity in his last moments. Ragdoll attempted to get Parademon out of Hell in one Secret Six arc, but the guy refused- saying that Hell reminded him of home.

-Parademon is unintelligent and unskilled, but packs more toughness and combat ability than most of his kind- regular Parademons are PL 5-6, getting by only on their numbers.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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L-Space
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Jihad! Deadshot! Count Vertigo! The Secret Six!)

Post by L-Space »

Villains United was a great comic with just the right balance of humor, action, and seriousness. The engrossing Catman/Deadshot bromance was just the cherry on top :D.
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Rag Doll (Peter Jr.)

Post by Jabroniville »

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RAG DOLL III (Peter Merkel, Jr.)
Created By:
Gail Simone & Dale Eaglesham
First Appearance: Villains United #1 (July 2005)
Role: Weirdo
Group Affiliations: The Secret Six
PL 9 (136)
STRENGTH 2 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 6
FIGHTING 12 DEXTERITY 7
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Acrobatics 8 (+14)
Athletics 11 (+13)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+14)
Expertise (Criminal) 4 (+5)
Insight 2 (+4)
Intimidation 6 (+6)
Perception 4 (+6)
Sleight of Hand 4 (+11)
Stealth 7 (+13)

Advantages:
Agile Feint, Chokehold, Equipment (Knife), Diehard, Evasion 2, Fearless, Grab Finesse, Improved Critical (Unarmed) 2, Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Precise Attack (Close/Concealment), Prone Fighting, Takedown, Uncanny Dodge

Powers:
"Artificially Triple-Jointed Physique"
Immunity 5 (Entanglement Effects) [5]
"Grabs With Legs" Extra Limbs 2 [2]
Features 1: May Fit Into Tiny Spaces [1]
"Precision Striker" Strength-Damage +1 [1]

Offense:
Unarmed +14 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Knife +12 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Initiative +10

Defenses:
Dodge +13 (DC 23), Parry +13 (DC 23), Toughness +5, Fortitude +6, Will +6

Complications:
Relationship (The Golden Age Rag Doll- Father)- Peter Jr. was a huge disappointment to his father- he was not born triple-jointed. He had to get disfiguring surgeries in order to copy similar functions.
Relationship (Alex/Junior- Sister)- Alex was badly abused by their father, and eventually became an insane, disfigured crime-boss.
Relationship (Black Alice)- Peter Jr. was initially weirded out by Alice's crush on her, but grew to have a brotherly affection, even standing up straight (!!) in order to defend her to others.
Reputation (Freak)- Peter Jr. removed his genitalia years ago, never stands up straight, and is covered in disfiguring scars.
Disabled (Disfigured)- Peter Jr. must regularly lubricate his skin with doses of a chemical cocktail, or else his bones will literally cut through his brittle flesh.

Total: Abilities: 70 / Skills: 48--24 / Advantages: 20 / Powers: 9 / Defenses: 13 (136)

-So with the Golden Age Rag Doll having been retconned into being a Manson-esque manipulative psychopath, we eventually had a SON show up as one of the new characters in Villains United. The third Rag Doll (an imposter was seen briefly in the modern era, and is technically Rag Doll II) is one of numerous children, all of whom extremely screwed up by their father's insane dominance in their lives. Peter Jr. is generally "kooky/funny" nuts, but hides a ton of inner torment... but hides it all behind his weird exterior. Like when someone made a comment about testicles, and RDIII replies "oh, I had all that bother removed YEARS ago"- Deadshot admirably points out that he's dedicated to his insanity, "I'll give you that". RDIII is ECSTATIC at what he views as a great compliment.

-Rag Doll continues on as a member of the Secret Six, generally as Comic Relief of sorts, but he gets a pretty decent arc when his sister is revealed to be the new, terrifying (given the Simone-caliber "everyone talks about her like she's the greatest" rep) crime-boss- a tearful Peter is horrified at what's become of his sister, who was once quite beautiful.

-Despite his somewhat-adversarial relationship with the Parademon in VU, he grew attached enough to the guy to try and betray the Six in order to resurrect him with a "Get Out Of Hell Free" card. However, he soon gives in, and allows Scandal to resurrect her lost love, Knockout. Finally, the weirdest member of the team is the one to convince them to stand together in a great last battle against various superheroes, ending the series. The character only briefly appears in a bit of Nu52 stuff- he was Gail's baby, plain and simple.

-Rag Doll was honestly a lot of fun. Characters like this can tip so easily into the "Team Wacky Guy/Pay Attention to MEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!" character archetype that it's a danger to produce them, but RDIII was such a genuinely off-kilter weirdo that he was perfect for a team of pretty serious, intense guys. It's for the best that he didn't call attention to himself or insist that everyone follow along with any "funny antics"- he was just a nut. The weird quasi-asexual stuff was just icing on the cake with him.

-Rag Doll isn't that elite, but was a solid grappler (Grab Finesse plus all the other grappling Advantages) and could be rather dangerous- he works out to PL 8.5 offensively, PL 9 defensively, owing to some remarkably toughness saves here and there.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Scandal Savage

Post by Jabroniville »

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SCANDAL SAVAGE
Created By:
Gail Simone & Dale Eaglesham
First Appearance: Villains United #1 (July 2005)
Role: Team Leader, Stabby Chick
PL 9 (147)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 6
FIGHTING 12 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 7 (+13)
Athletics 7 (+10)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+13)
Deception 3 (+6)
Expertise (Mercenary/Assassin) 9 (+11)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 4 (+7)
Investigation 5 (+8)
Perception 4 (+7)
Persuasion 2 (+5)
Stealth 6 (+12)
Technology 3 (+5)
Vehicles 2 (+7)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Assessment, Defensive Attack, Evasion, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Blades) 2, Improved Defense, Improved Initiative 2, Improved Smash, Last Stand (Ignores All Damage For 1 Round w/ HP Spent), Power Attack, Precise Attack (Close/Concealment), Ranged Attack 2, Seize Initiative, Startle, Withstand Damage (Trade Defenses For Toughness)

Powers:
"Pretty Resilient" Regeneration 4 [4]

"Lamentation Blades" (Flaws: Removable) [4]
Strength-Damage +3 (Feats: Improved Critical, Split) (5)

Offense:
Unarmed +13 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Lamentation Blades +12 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +14

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +13 (DC 23), Toughness +5, Fortitude +8, Will +7

Complications:
Relationship (Knockout)
Enemy (Vandal Savage- Father)

Total: Abilities: 78 / Skills: 56--28 / Advantages: 19 / Powers: 8 / Defenses: 14 (147)

-Scandal was kind of a necessity in the Secret Six series- she was hardly my favorite character, but she was the most-sane person on the squad, and thus fit in as the leader. Her main problem was that she suffered from the "All Talk" kind of bad-ass rep, in that people talked about her like she was hardcore, but she was routinely seen as the worst fighter in the book, with the least amount of "good showings". It's a particular issue of Simone's, as I've stated. At one point, she acts all menacing and tells a group of armed men to call their loved ones and tell them some final goodbyes. This is a standard bad-ass boast in comics and quite acceptable... except one of her assailants promptly takes out his phone and actually does this.

-Scandal leads the Six in the field, and soon reveals that Knockout, one of the Society, is working as her "mole", and they are totes in love. However, Knockout was casually killed off at some point, and a bereaved Scandal is a mess for the rest of the series. She later hooks up with a stripper the boys on the squad had hired to dress as Knockout (a SPECTACULARLY bad idea, but at least it worked out in the end) and has a weird father-daughter thing with Bane (who was protective of her), but Knockout is eventually resurrected when the team captures Neron's "Get Out of Hell Free" card. Rather than be awkward, the three women decide to get into a polygamous marriage, even though the stripper hasn't met Knockout before. But OH WELL. As continuity ends, the villains are captured and their fates left unknown.

-Despite my misgivings, Scandal is at least a PL 9, able to hack & slash through Mooks with great ease, and can at least hang with fairly serious opponents (Talia, Hawkgirl). She's also very resilient, seemingly sharing some of her father's Immortality, as she can get shot with only minor injuries, and tends to recover quickly.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
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Knockout

Post by Jabroniville »

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... F*ck I hate Superboy.

KNOCKOUT 
Created By:
Karl Kesel & Tom Grummett
First Appearance: Superboy #1 (Feb. 1994)
Role: Tough Chick, Hot Amazon
Group Affiliations: The Female Furies, The Secret Six, The Suicide Squad
PL 10 (117)
STRENGTH
13 STAMINA 13 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 3
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Expertise (Apokoliptican Soldier) 4 (+6)
Deception 5 (+7, +9 Attractive)
Insight 2 (+2)
Intimidation 2 (+4)
Technology 5 (+7)

Advantages:
Attractive, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 2, Takedown

Powers:
Regeneration 2 [2]
Leaping 3 (60 feet) [3]

Offense:
Unarmed +7 (+13 Damage, DC 28)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +7 (DC 17), Parry +7 (DC 17), Toughness +13, Fortitude +12, Will +5

Complications:
Relationship (Scandal Savage)- Knockout seems deeply in love with her "poppet" (UGH).
Enemy (Superboy)- Back in the day, she was a rival/flirt with the teen hero. They eventually stop interacting entirely.

Total: Abilities: 86 / Skills: 18--9 / Advantages: 8 / Powers: 5 / Defenses: 9 (117)

-So with the brand-new Superboy series a thing, they needed some bad guys- first off, they threw in Knockout, playing up the "strong chick/flirt" thing that some guys are into (WEIRDOS). Pretty clear "male fantasy" stuff, especially considering Superboy (then sporting the STUPIDEST "clothes as costume" look in the history of comics) was also macking on that Tana chick the entire time. Christ, Knockout was even a STRIPPER. She popped up on the Suicide Squad in Superboy as well, and returned after being betrayed by them and left for dead. This led to a bit where she was a friendlier character on the book, even helping the hero out from time to time.

-Ultimately, she faked her death when her old group (apparently the Female Furies) came to bring her back to Apokolips. While this failed, her truly villainous side was revealed, and Superboy defeated her one last time- she does not escape custody for the duration of the series. It isn't until Villains United that the character returns, being revealed as the lesbian lover of Scandal Savage, and a mole for the Six. They continue on in another series (one that I'd never read; never having heard of it, despite enjoying VU), eventually becoming "exclusive" after a hiccup (she bangs Deadshot, not knowing that human relationships are typically one-on-one). Unfortunately, she is killed off by Infinity-Man, who was offing most of the New Gods during that forgotten storyline.

-Knockout's death ends up becoming a HUGE deal, as it informs much of Scandal's later character (yes, ironically, GAIL SIMONE stuffed a woman into the refrigerator and reflected it in the survivor), and a huge part of The Secret Six- Scandal eventually manages to resurrect her lover, engaging in a triple-relationship with a hot stripper that the team once paid to dress like Knockout to make Scandal feel better. Because comics.

-Honestly, Knockout was either off-panel or dead the entire time I was reading about her, so I have no real attachment to the character other than what she meant to Scandal. And her calling Scandal "poppet" got annoying- that is weirdly unnatural dialogue (who SAYS THAT?).

-I really have no earthly idea how powerful Knockout is supposed to be. Superboy never seemed that tough back in the day, and he's clearly WAY below Superman, and so his own personal rival is probably of a similar level. I'm going with PL 10- Standard Powerhouse class. Especially since she seems to job out a lot in the comics- seemingly biting off more than she can chew in many fights.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Secret Six! Rag Doll! Scandal Savage!)

Post by KorokoMystia »

I actually used to own a comic featuring 90s Superboy and Knockout, when I bought a bunch of old comics for cheap from a store.

There's a build for Knockout in the (availible free online) DCA Quick Start Guide, which puts her at..PL 12?!
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Secret Six! Rag Doll! Scandal Savage!)

Post by Ares »

Bronze Tiger is one of those characters I'm glad got a decent push during Suicide Squad, and really should be amongst the elite of the DCU.It was actually kind of funny how hard Ostrander pushed Ben over Richard Dragon, to the point where during an issue of the Suicide Squad, several government types were going over Ben's history, and Richard came up. Someone basically said "who the Hell is Richard Dragon?" and poor Rich received a pretty short run down before moving on.

Both Shiva and Ben have gotten way more play than Richard did, though to be fair, both Shiva and Ben have had some actual personality built into them. Ostrander made Ben a pet project, a good man trying to use discipline and spirituality to curb an ugly side of himself. Meanwhile Denny O'Niel made Shiva his pet villain, basically making her an evil Ryu with a bit of Deadshot's old Death Seeker tendency, looking for a worthy opponent who can end her life, while also having a good time. Richard basically became the "boring wise mentor type who trained all of the A-List fighters in DC", which is a shame because an Obi-Wan style mentor is a fun archetype when done right. And that Richard Dragon mini-series that came out Pre-52 was just garbage.

Bronze Tiger vs Stompa actually makes sense to me. If Stompa is in that Thing / Colossus tier of physical power, then guys like Ben, Batman, Captain America and Shang Chi aren't really going to have much of a chance against her if they're just trying to beat her unconscious unarmed. I figure for guys who are basically "action movie" martial artists with better stats, the ability to harm superhuman opponents with even nerve strikes and the like probably tops out around the Class 50 mark. After that point, you need legit "special techniques" like Iron Fist, Karnak or Karate Kid to really hurt guys above Class 50.

When Shang Chi went up against the Thing, even a chi-amped strike barely made Ben blink, and Shang had to use judo-style maneuvers to throw Ben around and evade him. Which is kind of the point. Martial arts are not just about making you better at punching and kicking, they’re a collection of tactics and training to help you adapt to opponents, even opponents with physical advantages over you. Trying to jump kick Stompa into submission was just Ben asking to get his butt kicked.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Secret Six! Rag Doll! Scandal Savage!)

Post by Ares »

Regarding Deadshot and Captain Boomerang, I more or less considered them the "Green Arrow/Hawkeyes" of their respective weapons. Deadshot was an amazing marksman and Digger could make those boomerangs do some incredible things. I always thought it was kind of weird that they kept having to try and give him "a reason" to be a threat to the Flash, like giving his son the ability to throw boomerangs at superspeed or giving him energy boomerangs. He's just the reverse of the "non-powered hero can take on superpowered opponents" rule.

Though making Digger a greedy, self-serving, shallow asshole who was still entertaining and goofy made for an oddly fun character. Deadshot being this sort of smug jackass who also does just not give any fucks was likewise fun, as was the Deadshot/Catman bromance.

Count Vertigo is a perfect sort of journeyman badguy, who can just be used with any hero while still being a good Green Arrow nemesis. He and Ollie actually make for an interesting contrast, having similar hair and costume colors, both being born to wealth, both ultimately being humbled by the loss of said wealth, Ollie used said loss to become a better person while Vertigo basically became even more of a pompous douche. But he definitely needs either a team to work with or some thugs, or he just needs to do what Young Justice Count Vertigo did and carry a sword with him, so he can just stab people he's incapacitated with his power.

As for his flight power, apparently it started out as magnetic boots in his costume that let him walk on walls and ceilings to further disorient his opponents, but over time it became full on, low level flight. I've checked four different DC Handbooks (2 different Who's Who entries and 2 different RPG books). One of them was written before he could fly, two of them say he can fly through "unknown means", and the most recent one implies that it was a gadget but he's somehow internalized its power. So basically "he started flying one day and no one bothered to explain how".

Though really, how in the Hell does the Spectre just . . . DESTROY an entire nation? What the Hell did Vertigo's people do to piss off the Wrath of God like that?

Vixen, yeah, I agree, it's amazing what losing a stupid hair style will do for a character. Her outfits are really, really plain tho. I'm usually against over-stylising a character's outfit (see the Nu-52 Flash and Superman), but hers is almost too plain.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Secret Six! Rag Doll! Scandal Savage!)

Post by Ares »

Parademon was interesting in that he shows what kind of mooks Darkseid uses. I mean, when a guy who is considered the lowest of grunts is "the muscle" for a team of villains, it should say something. Granted, I probably would make Parademons even more of a threat, like the average Parademon = the average Asgardian, and probably have them look slightly less human from whatever process makes them that way. Like, to me, Parademons are designed to be flying harbingers of death, they godly equivalent of StormTroopers and TIE Fighter pilots. All of their New God tech should be built directly into their bodies and only be removed for maintenance.

Ragdoll was interesting to me if only on the prospect of "what happens when a villain's child DOESN'T inherit their parent's powers?" While making the Ragdoll clan these psycho murderers is a bit over the top (really, the guy just couldn't be some weirdly amusing tripple jointed thief like in The Batman?), it is interesting when a villain known for one thing has a kid who lacks said one thing. Said kid then needs to undergo all of these weird surgeries to attain that ability, basically self-mutilate themselves in an effort to please daddy, which will never happen.

The irony is that if Ragdoll had any brains, he would have just tried to get his hands on that serum Ralph Dibney used to become the Elongated Man, maybe have some scientist make the effects less powerful but longer lasting/semi-permanent. So he has literal rubber bones and the like. But then he's less creepy, so eh.

Scandal Savage was definitely someone who was needed but also fell victim to Gail's "All Hype" characters. I mean, the daughter of Vandal Savage should be a pretty big deal, but she was mostly there to be "the least crazy" team member. Though I do find it ironic that Gail pulled a "women in refrigerators" on her own character after coming up with said phrase, but I'm sure Gail would defend it with her having always intended to bring Knockout back, whereas a lot of other said women stayed dead. And as for the threesome . . . well, hey, if three hot women can have it, then I guess it means that no one can complain if men have threesomes with hot women anymore. Or two hot guys and one hot girl, or three hot guys if you swing that way.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Secret Six! Rag Doll! Scandal Savage!)

Post by Ares »

Knockout is an interesting case since my brother actually collected the original Superboy series, which was actually kind of fun. His hair was stupid, the ear-ring was stupid and the outfit was a bit busy with too much black along with the red, blue and gold, but I still prefer that look to the t-shirt and army pants non-costume the character has worn for a while. Even the "leather jacket as a cape" thing sort of worked, you just needed to get rid of the rest of the black on said costume so the jacket would really contrast the way it was suppose to. But they gave Superboy a unique powerset with his tactile telekinesis, and he was more or less a more irresponsible Spider-Man in terms of personality, someone who struggled with a lot of deep issues (being a clone, no family, etc.) and hid it beneath this sort of carefree, flippant attitude.

Knockout was a New God, and was actually pretty strong. While Superboy didn't have more insane feats Superman had, he did have a couple of solid ones, such as lifting the world's largest yacht over his head rather effortlessly, as well as lifting the DCU equivalent of the Taj Mahal with great effort. During a fight with Aquaman, back when Arthur was "only" around the Class 50 range, Superboy was completely unphased by Arthur's attacks, basically standing there while Aquaman punched and kicked him to no effect (and this was written by Peter David, mind you). It was somewhat similar to Arthur's fight with She-Hulk. I'd peg Superboy as being at or a little below Class 80/Thing/Colossus, probably Class 70 in his early days, and a solid class 80/possibly Class 90 once his Kryptonian genes kicked in once he joined the Titans under Geoff Johns.

Knockout was somewhere above Superboy and around or below Big Barda in strength, given the pair slugged it out fairly evenly during a Wonder Woman arc, though Barda ultimately won. And Knockout was at least semi-interesting in that she was an Apokalypse New God who fled the planet, but unlike Barda and Mr. Miracle, was still a selfish bitch completely out for herself. Which makes sense, really. Just because you want to escape an evil oppressive society doesn't make you a good person, after all. It can sometimes just mean you want the freedom to be your own flavor of asshole.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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King Shark

Post by Jabroniville »

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King Shark's vision of Hell: Truly terrifying.

KING SHARK (Nanaue)
Created By:
Karl Kesel
First Appearance: Superboy #0 (Oct. 1994)
Role: Comic Relief
Group Affiliations: The Suicide Squad
PL 10 (124)
STRENGTH
10 STAMINA 10 AGILITY 0
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+10)
Deception 4 (+4)
Expertise (Mythology) 2 (+2)
Expertise (Survival) 5 (+5)
Intimidation 8 (+8)
Perception 7 (+7)
Stealth 2 (+2)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Diehard, Fast Grab, Great Endurance, Power Attack, Startle

Powers:
"Animal Senses" Senses 6 (Extended 2 & Acute Scent, Tracking-Scent, Low-Light & Extended Vision) [6]
"Lateral Lines" Senses 1 (Ranged Touch) [1]
"Electrolocation" Senses 5 (Detect Electrical Signals- Acute, Accurate & Ranged) [5]

"Sea Creature"
Swimming 4 (30 mph) [4]
Immunity 1 (Drowning) [1]

"Shark Scales" Impervious Toughness 3 [3]
"Shark's Bite" Strength-Damage +0 (Extras: Penetrating 8) (Inaccurate -1) [7]
Regeneration 5 (Feats: Regrows Limbs) [6]

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Initiative +0

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +10, Fortitude +10, Will +5

Complications:
Motivation (Eating)
Enemy (Superboy, Aquaman)

Total: Abilities: 56 / Skills: 30--15 / Advantages: 6 / Powers: 33 / Defenses: 14 (124)

-King Shark is one of those "wait... who?" guys for me- a small-time Superboy foe who was chosen largely out of nowhere to be a new sixth member of the Secret Six team. I'd never heard of him before, yet he fit in perfectly as... well, a background Comic Relief type of guy. He was just a big dumb thug, so he didn't take time or characterization away from the other weirdos. Turns out he's the son of the "Shark God" of Hawaiian mythology, and killed a lot of people before Superboy could stop him. He became a recurring foe of the teen hero, but largely fell into Comics Limbo.

-A few scattered background appearances followed (including one in which he gets a non-speaking role in consuming Neptune Perkins alive), and he was in the Aquaman book, showing more conversation than before, and generally being less-bloodthirsty. His full origins are revealed at this point (it was sometimes given that he might have been a genetic experiment), and he was defeated by the hero. He then appears on the final couple arcs of Secret Six, usually just as a goon. His best moment came when he was sent to his own personal hell, where he's a popular individual with tons of admirers... and sits down at a fancy restaurant, only to be told that it, and all other restaurants, are vegetarian. "NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

-King Shark actually appears in the Nu52 Suicide Squad series, this time resembling a Hammerhead Shark. Which, truth be told, is a rather more frightening and alien appearance.

-King Shark is a typical PL 10 fighter for the most part, but on the Secret Six actually stands out a bit as remarkably powerful- he fights guys in the Superboy/Aquaman Class, not the Batman one- a big difference to Catman, Deadshot & Scandal. He's a bit light on Defenses and versatility, but PL 10 is PL 10.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Tue Feb 15, 2022 6:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24689
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab's Builds! (The Secret Six! Rag Doll! Scandal Savage!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Damn, I was all "man, so few are commenting on my Suicide Squad stuff", and then Ares goes and does the comments of like fifteen people :). Excellent...

Richard Dragon is a weird one for me, because I've literally never read an appearance of the character, despite his reputation.
Bronze Tiger vs Stompa actually makes sense to me. If Stompa is in that Thing / Colossus tier of physical power, then guys like Ben, Batman, Captain America and Shang Chi aren't really going to have much of a chance against her if they're just trying to beat her unconscious unarmed. I figure for guys who are basically "action movie" martial artists with better stats, the ability to harm superhuman opponents with even nerve strikes and the like probably tops out around the Class 50 mark. After that point, you need legit "special techniques" like Iron Fist, Karnak or Karate Kid to really hurt guys above Class 50.
Yeah, pretty much. In real life, nobody that strong is gonna be challenged by a regular human. Think of real life, and an unarmed man taking on a polar bear or an elephant- it's ludicrous. And a Class Whatever superhuman is multiple TIMES that strong!
And as for the threesome . . . well, hey, if three hot women can have it, then I guess it means that no one can complain if men have threesomes with hot women anymore. Or two hot guys and one hot girl, or three hot guys if you swing that way.
I can't remember if Gail complained about the "threesome" comment in another book that drew some controversy (which might have been more because it casually turned Hal into a mack-daddy and essentially wrote off two long-running super-heroines as being willing to have a casual threesome with him). But in this case, it seemed more romantic and... well, she was writing all three characters as regulars in the book, and invented two of them. So she gets to say what they'd do in the matter :).
Knockout was somewhere above Superboy and around or below Big Barda in strength, given the pair slugged it out fairly evenly during a Wonder Woman arc, though Barda ultimately won.
Ah, okay, So Strength 13 is probably a little closer. Any one of DC's "lower tier" Powerhouses are tricky, as the levels are so variable and often make no sense. I'll still never get over coming up with a Geo-Force bio, then reading his DCA one and finding out that he can lift THOUSANDS of tons. I was seriously expecting him to be "Class 10" or something!
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Secret Six! Rag Doll! Scandal Savage!)

Post by Jabroniville »

KorokoMystia wrote: Fri May 05, 2017 1:43 am I actually used to own a comic featuring 90s Superboy and Knockout, when I bought a bunch of old comics for cheap from a store.

There's a build for Knockout in the (availible free online) DCA Quick Start Guide, which puts her at..PL 12?!
While I'll never get over their PL 12 Batman, and the subsequent boosting of his entire Rogues Gallery (Class 100 Killer Croc! Why not!), I can't really judge some of their PL choices, because researching DC characters and trying to find consistent portrayals is a pain. Most of her stuff was fighting Superboy in the early days of his own book, when he was a high-powered rookie hero, but his later portrayals are so much higher that I can easily see how someone would just assume she was much more powerful. Me, I'm seeing her as "Just one of the Furies", none of whom belong higher than PL 10. For all her comparative might, she's essentially DC's version of Titania- a female "Jobber To The Stars" (to use the wrestling parlance) who can beat up normies, but is mainly there to "put over" high-tiered opponents.
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Ares
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Secret Six! Rag Doll! Scandal Savage!)

Post by Ares »

Yeah, one thing Marvel can definitely say is that it tends to at least TRY to manage the pecking order of their superhuman characters, much better than DC does.

Part of the problem, I think, was that a lot of these characters were created during the Silver Age and Bronze Age. Back then, basically you were either "Superman Class Planet Moving" Super strong, or you weren't. And if you weren't, then it didn't really matter what numbers they put on your strength, because you were likely never going to be the guy who solves problems by being really strong. So guys like Aquaman have been everything from "barely stronger than Spider-Man" to "nearly as strong as Superman", and why we had three people on the New Titans (Starfire, Cyborg and Wonder Girl) and we rarely knew who was stronger by how much.

It's basically why I had to start applying my own Class system to DC heroes based off of the average of most showings and a combination of my gut telling me where they probably should be.

Geo-Force is an interesting case, since he was definitely the strongest guy on the Outsiders during their "Batman and" days . . . but this was the Outsiders. The idea of him lifting thousands of tons is kind of wonky to me, but it's possible he's gotten stronger with age. He's someone whose strength has been all over the map. Like you said, I could see him being anywhere from Spider-Man strong to The Thing strong, depending on the era. Me personally, I'd probably put him at Class 50-ish but with the ability to augment his strength to Class 80 via his gravity powers, but doing so prevents him from using his other abilities.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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