Jab’s Builds! (Lawnmower Man! Samus Aran! Metroids!)

[Ares]

Red from Overly Sarcastic Productions made a really point about the cinematic Civil War saying that the entire stitch of that movie is that Cap is perceived as a unchanging paragon, a character that would die rather than changing his mind and because of this things escalated quickly.

I don't think that's true at all. What was nice about Civil War the film compared to Civil War the comic was that in the film at least, everyone's motivations made sense given the state of mind all of the players were in at the time.

The politicians used the tragedy of that bomb explosion to push forward the Sokovia Accords essentially because of fear. Fear that they had lost control of the world with superheroes flying around, fear of killer robots and aliens and mad gods, and this was an opportunity to get some of that control back and alleviate that fear. It explains why their response was so ham-fisted, why they essentially came in with the goal of taking over the Avengers completely, rather than trying something more reasonable and even-handed, working WITH the Avengers rather than forcing the Avengers to work FOR them. It's also clear that they had worked up those accords in advance and were just waiting for the right tragedy to occur in order to spring them on the team. You don't write up a document that thick and have that much UN support for something overnight. This was a calculated act for the people who are use to being in control of the world to get some of that control back.

Tony being in support of the Accords makes sense given his frame of mind. He and Pepper are "on a break", he's going through some therapy to deal with lingering guilt over his parents deaths, and a woman comes and shove in his face the one thing that hurts Tony more than anything: the idea that his actions or something he built caused innocent people to die. In the case of her son, it's both that he wasn't good to save her son and that something he tried to create wound up causing the tragedy to begin with. He feels a personal sense of responsibility here, but he also knows the kind of people he's dealing with. He knows what they'll do to try and get control of the Avengers, and the Avengers are one thing he's built that he can feel real pride in, and people he can really consider his friends. So he's trying to smooth things over, get everyone to play nice, and hope that over time he can get control of the Avengers back.

Steve, on the other hand, isn't in a better frame of mind. The first woman he really loved just died, and because of his unique circumstances he was never able to really be with her, he could only be there for her in the last days of her life. A life he missed out on. He's also worked with governments before, he's seen this kind of reaction, and he's got real personal experience with what people will do in positions of power, claiming to be doing something in their governments interest when it serves their own. Steve knows that if he agrees to work for these people, people he doesn't know, doesn't trust and who are using underhanded tactics to try and gain control of his team, they might never be free again. These are the kind of people who were ready to drop a nuke on New York City, who were designing Helicarriers with orbital cannons to take out people they didn't like, and who are quick to blame him and his team for actions that have saved the world no less than three times. It makes perfect sense for Steve to not agree to work with them.

Both Tony and Steve are in bad places, their reasons for doing what they do are sound, and the fact that it's the other person on the opposite side just makes it worse. Tony is already dealing with his daddy issues, now he's got to deal with the person his dad idolized, who he has something of an inferiority complex about, but who he's come to know as a real friend. Steve is dealing with the loss of the last person from his past, a past Tony reminds him of due to being Howard's son, and whose friendship he doesn't want to lose. Steve is even willing to work with Tony, to swallow his pride and meet Tony half-way, until Tony reveals that he's put Wanda under house arrest. Because to Steve, that's an unconscionable violation of her rights as a human being, a hero and his friend, while Tony sees it as just something they need to put up with until the Accords are signed. For Steve, it's a clear sign of how the Accords will treat them; as living weapons to be called out when their needed and placed under house arrest when they aren't. The fact that Ross compared Bruce and Thor to nuclear weapons only cements in his mind that they're being looked as assets and weapons, not heroes or even people. It's not that he won't change his mind because he's stubborn, it's that these people refuse to give him any reason to change his mind.

There were a couple of things I wish the film had done. One was to make it clear that the woman whose son died was sent to Tony specifically to get him on the UN's side. Make it clear that they sent her there rather than it just her being the literal mother of all coincidences. It would have also been nice for someone to point out how completely asinine and self-serving her whole "I blame you" statement was. If anything, she clearly blamed herself for letting her son wander the world, and wishes she had kept him home and safe, and now that he's dead she needs someone to blame for his death. Can't blame Ultron, he's dead. So she goes after the people who saved the entire world, and blame them because of the few people they couldn't save, despite their best efforts, her son was one of them. Point out how it's like blaming a fire fighter because they couldn't get everyone out of a building in time despite their best efforts.

I also wish they had made it clear that Zemo hired Crossbones to perform that heist and was armed with those explosives to intentionally trigger the events of the film. Make it clear Zemo had somehow found out about the Accords being written up and sent Crossbones in to give the politicians the excuse they needed.

I also wish there had been people willing to refute the Pro-Accords side a bit, but I realize that doing so would have made the Pro-Side look even weaker. People keep calling T'Challa's father a good man, but he goes along with his role of playing the victim, blaming Wanda for the deaths of his people, calling her a dangerous weapon, when someone easily could had pointed out that her actions saved many more lives than those who died. That if she'd done nothing, many more people would have died in the market, but then they wouldn't have been Wakandans, so it wouldn't have been his problem, right?

Likewise, when Ross is showing clips of Avengers 1, Capt. America 2 and Avengers 2, no one points out that the destruction that alternative to the destruction that occurred was THE END OF THE WORLD. The casualties that occurred were the minimum casualties the situation allowed for, and the heroes made a concentrated effort to save as many people as possible. Bruce Banner would have also had a lot to add with Ross there, given Ross spent years trying to turn Bruce into a weapon, just like the UN wanted to do with the Avengers. And no one pointed out to Ross that Thor and Banner are sentient beings, no weapons, and they have the right to go wherever they want and do as they please.

I also wish Wanda had pointed out that her brother died saving the world and in particular, an innocent child. I would have loved the boy's mother to speak out in defense of the Avengers.

So no, the film wasn't about Capt. America being unwilling to change, it was about people with reasonable motivations doing what they felt was best, even if those actions only made sense from their mindset at the time. And aside from one meeting with Tony, these people never gave Steve any reason to believe that he could trust them to make the right decisions, and he was not going to give such people authority over himself or his friends.

[Jabroniville]

MARVEL'S GREEK GODS:
-As I've said many times before, I'm a HUGE fan of Greek Mythology- they're basically the greatest Super-Heroes of antiquity, but more in the Marvel vein than the DC one- intensely-flawed, demanding, possibly-psychotic super-beings constantly engaged in feuds and battles with each other. They're such a natural element of comics that both companies have repeatedly interjected the Olympians into their superhero tales, though often with a lot of things changed.

The popularity of Thor led to the expansion of the Norse mythos over time, and so it was only natural that the Greek Gods followed- Hercules was depicted as a bragging, boorish lout that frequently challenged Thor, but was ultimately heroic himself- a pretty solid "Rival Hero" character. The Gods were pretty slow in coming, however- Hercules and Zeus debuted in the same 1965 Journey Into Mystery Annual, and Ares & Pluto came the next year, but many of the others (including major names like Apollo, Hephaestus and others) waited until 1976, eleven years later. Eris does not appear until 1993. Curiously, some are depicted with Latin names, such as Pluto (Hades) and Bacchus (Dionysus). Marvel makes it pretty clear these are the same beings by different names.

There's a hierarchy at work- Zeus is the leader, but is usually just seen giving orders. Unlike most typical depictions, he is red-headed (he is typically white-haired in modern depictions, largely thanks to the marble statues that remain being white- these were painted in antiquity, however; Zeus is likely black-haired in Greek imagination). Poseidon rules beneath the seas, and is actively worshipped by Marvel's Atlanteans. Pluto is the God of the Underworld, and thanks to that association, is basically a soul-grabbing, Chaotic Evil sort, much like Marvel's Hela and other Hell-Lords, of which he is a lowish-ranking member. Hera is usually seen as more reasonable and calm, and Athena a mere backgrounder. The other Gods are largely superfluous, appearing only rarely, and in stories featuring ALL of the Greek Gods.

An issue with these guys is the lack of a regular title- a series of the 1950s featured "Venus", but that has largely been ignored (for example, it features a non-continuity Marvel debut of Thor), with a replica of that character showing up in Agents of Atlas, murking up the origin. Other than that... they're mostly side-characters in the Thor book, with Hercules getting the occasional rare placement on The Avengers here and there. Herc was really only on the team for a portion of the 1980s (leading to his incapacitation at the hands of the Masters of Evil), and a portion of the dreaded "1990s Bomber Jacket Phase" team, sporting giant shoulder pads, stubble, and long Kevin Sorbo hair. This means that most of the Gods are at best only ancillary characters, beneath the Asgardians in importance.

The greatest use of them by far was in The Incredible Hercules, a several-year run featuring Herc, written by Grek Pak & Fred Van Lente. This brilliant, comedic series had Herc team up with teen genius snark-ass Amadeus Cho in a bunch of wacky adventures that often featured real drama, dangerous bad guys, and a lot of wit. It mixed boorish humor about Herc's man-whoring with some clever jokes and references to the oddities found in mythology. And it did a great job in expanding the Greek Pantheon, with Hera acting more like her true mythical self, Ares acting like a huge blowhard, and Athena acting as a great combination of mentor-figure and manipulator.

THE OLYMPIANS (Greeks & Romans):
Skyfather: Zeus (Thunder, Sky)
Others: Aprhrodite (Love), Apollo (Light & The Sun), Ares (War- Savage), Artemis (The Hunt & The Moon), Athena (Wisdom & War- Tactical), Demeter (Plant Growth), Dionysus (Wine & Partying), Eos (Dawn), Hephaestus (The Forge, Fire & Metal), Helios (Old Sun God), Hera (Marriage & Childbirth), Hercules (Strength), Hermes (Commerce, Messengers & Travellers), Hestia/Vesta (Hearth & Home), Poseidon/Neptune (The Sea), Pluto/Hades (The Dead)
-The famous Greek Gods, who later became Roman and got the Planets named after them. They show up second-most after the Norse, as Hercules is a fabled super-hero, and the Greeks are easily-used for whatever crazy scheme is going on, as they're so fundamentally screwed-up and thus, interesting characters to use.

[BriarThrone]

Red from Overly Sarcastic Productions made a really point about the cinematic Civil War saying that the entire stitch of that movie is that Cap is perceived as a unchanging paragon, a character that would die rather than changing his mind and because of this things escalated quickly.

I don't think that's true at all. What was nice about Civil War the film compared to Civil War the comic was that in the film at least, everyone's motivations made sense given the state of mind all of the players were in at the time.

I think Red is both right and wrong here. I think it's true that Cap is perceived as being incredibly obtuse... by Tony and the rest of the Pro-Accords crowd. "You don't agree with me, even though I'm obviously right, so you're a stupid stubborn prick! You act like you have legitimate concerns that need addressing, but I don't like them, so nyeh!" It's an attitude that comes naturally to Hollywood.

The politicians used the tragedy of that bomb explosion to push forward the Sokovia Accords essentially because of fear. Fear that they had lost control of the world with superheroes flying around, fear of killer robots and aliens and mad gods, and this was an opportunity to get some of that control back and alleviate that fear. It explains why their response was so ham-fisted, why they essentially came in with the goal of taking over the Avengers completely, rather than trying something more reasonable and even-handed, working WITH the Avengers rather than forcing the Avengers to work FOR them. It's also clear that they had worked up those accords in advance and were just waiting for the right tragedy to occur in order to spring them on the team. You don't write up a document that thick and have that much UN support for something overnight. This was a calculated act for the people who are use to being in control of the world to get some of that control back.

I think this is a fine example of analyzing things better than the filmmakers did. Your points are fine indeed, and they fit the facts, but I think they're a bit more sophisticated than anyone actually involved in making the thing actually came up with. And I really doubt Hollywood is going to even subtly going to hint at the fact that government overreach is always there, waiting for a suitably emotionally charged moment to seem justified. Sort of goes against their ideals.

<snip>

The rest of the post is awesome too, but I'd like to point out one thing that I drew from it that I'd like to see emphasized more - all of the Avengers basically knew that the Accords were a raw deal, unfair, and dangerous. The big argument was, how do we oppose it? Stand firm, or give a little and bide our time? Cap and his side, I feel, correctly identified that yielding once to government overreach doesn't provide an opportunity to fight back later- it provides the government an opportunity to push further and get you to surrender again.

[L-Space]

Likewise, when Ross is showing clips of Avengers 1, Capt. America 2 and Avengers 2, no one points out that the destruction that alternative to the destruction that occurred was THE END OF THE WORLD. The casualties that occurred were the minimum casualties the situation allowed for, and the heroes made a concentrated effort to save as many people as possible. Bruce Banner would have also had a lot to add with Ross there, given Ross spent years trying to turn Bruce into a weapon, just like the UN wanted to do with the Avengers. And no one pointed out to Ross that Thor and Banner are sentient beings, no weapons, and they have the right to go wherever they want and do as they please.

This is probably one of the most frustrating scenes to watch and makes me want to jump through the screen to throttle Ross.

[Ken]

And I really doubt Hollywood is going to even subtly going to hint at the fact that government overreach is always there, waiting for a suitably emotionally charged moment to seem justified. Sort of goes against their ideals.

Hiding the truth by taking refuge in audacity : Superman reveals his identity to Lois

[Jabroniville]

HERCULES (aka Herakles)
Created By: Stan Lee & Jack Kirby
First Appearance: Journey into Mystery Annual #1 (1965)
Role: Thor Rip-Off, Breakout Character (2000s), Boisterous Bruiser, The Dunderhead, The Man-Whore
Godly Role: Greco-Roman God of Strength, Sports, Athletes & Heroes; Gatekeeper of the Gods and Divine Protector of Mankind
Group Affiliations: The Avengers, The Olympian Pantheon, The Champions, The God Squad, The Heroes For Hire
PL 13 (197)
STRENGTH 16 STAMINA 15 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+5)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+11)
Deception 4 (+7, +9 Attractive)
Expertise (Olympian God) 4 (+4)
Expertise (History) 4 (+4)
Expertise (Pop Culture) 5 (+5)
Expertise (Soldier) 7 (+7)
Intimidation 8 (+11)
Perception 5 (+5)
Persuasion 4 (+7, +9 Attractive)
Ranged Combat (Bow & Arrow) 8 (+8)
Sleight of Hand 3 (+3)
Stealth 2 (+4)

Advantages: 
Accurate Attack, All-Out Attack, Attractive, Chokehold, Diehard, Fast Grab, Fearless, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed) 2, Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Improvised Weapon, Luck, Power Attack, Takedown, Ultimate Strength Check, Withstand Damage

Powers:
"Olympian God of Strength"
Power Lifting 5 (50,000 tons) [5]
Immunity 10 (Aging, Starvation & Thirst, Heat, Cold, Disease, Fatigue Effects) [10]
"Strong-Breathed" Immunity 4 (Drowning & Suffocation, Poison, Pressure) (Flaws: Limited to Half-Effect) [2]
Regeneration 4 (Feats: Regrowth) [5]
Impervious Toughness 11 [11]
Leaping 4 (120 feet) [4]
Speed 4 (30 mph) [4]

"Super-Strength Feats" (AE of Strength Damge) [2]

• AE: "Groundstrike" Affliction 13 (Dodge; Hindered/Prone) (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst) (Flaws: Limited Degree, Instant Recovery, Limited to Ground) Linked to Damage 10 (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst) (Flaws: Limited to Objects) (14)
• AE: "Shockwave" Damage 12 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (Flaws: Both Grounded) (12)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+16 Damage, DC 31)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +11 (DC 21), Toughness +15 (+6 Impervious), Fortitude +15, Will +8

Complications:
Reputation (Man-Whore)
Relationship (Amadeus Cho)- Herc & Amadeus are the best of buds, and would gladly sacrfice themselves for each other. But Cho is NOT Hercules's Eronomous!!
Enemy (Ares)- Herc's brother is kind of an asshole.
Enemy (Hera)- The wife of Herc's dad is kind of a bitch.
Secret (Murdered His Original Family)
Responsibility (Those Close to Him Die)

Total: Abilities: 92 / Skills: 58--29 / Advantages: 18 / Powers: 43 / Defenses: 15 (197)

Herakles in Mythology: The story of Herakles (turned to "Hercules" in Latin) is among the greatest mythological stories ever told, in my opinion- there's a reason he's easily the most famous Greek God of all time. It's basically the tale of how a Demi-God of great power (essentially a super-hero, with an origin and arch-nemesis and everything) had to overcome everything, using his strength and wits combined, to finally make good and ascend to true Godhood. The tale of the Twelve Labours of Hercules are famous the world over, and contain such awesomeness as killing the fricking HYDRA, beating a gang of flesh-eating birds, killing two invincible characters (one of who was also a lion), cleaning up tons of poop, feeding a dude to his own horses, and going into Hell to kick a three-headed dog's ass. The dude is so hardcore that when faced with certain death from Hydra's blood (his wife was tricked by a lusty centaur into poisoning Herc), he built his own funeral pyre and had himself burned alive. Hell, even as a BABY he was a bad-ass, strangling a pair of snakes to death after they'd been sent by Hera to kill him. The Hercules of Mythology is 100 times as manly as James Bond, Batman, Chuck Norris & Godzilla all put together.

Marvel's Hercules:
-The technical "debut" of Hercules was in a 1964 Avengers issue, featuring Immortus summoning some minions from across time to combat The Avengers- this Herc was meant to challenge Thor, naturally. Kurt Busiek would refuse to let this continuity issue go, fixing it in Avengers Forever by revealing this to be a Space Phantom in disguise. The PROPER debut of Herc was in the next year, when he showed up as a boisterous, boorish rival for Thor, sharing his penchant for Faux-Shakespearean Dialogue.

-Herc went on to become a recurring star in the book, as his Thor-level strength, but lack of other powers, made him a solid rival and ally. He was once enslaved by Pluto, necessitating Thor fighting his way through Dark Hades to rescue him. In another issue, he fought the Incredible Hulk to a standstill, providing a comparison between the two men. Enchantress later brainwashes him into trying to destroy the Avengers- this causes him to be banished by Zeus for a year, leading to various other back-up stories and guest shots. The character spent the years like this- always an occasional guest star. The year after his debut, we would meet other Greek Gods, many of whom would become recurring Marvel villains, like Ares and Pluto.

-The 1970s saw a really odd bit, where Hercules joins the little-known super-team The Champions, which was basically "well, we're not using these five guys- why not make a team out of them?". It was made up of The Black Widow, leading Hercules as the powerhouse, Johnny "Ghost Rider" Blaze, and two unused X-Men- Iceman and The Angel. The book was not terribly popular, and only has a few fans these days, compared to many other failed '70s books which have enormous Doom Patrol Fandoms.

Hercules in the '80s:
-Hercules eventually becomes associated with The Avengers after numerous stories, joining the team in the '80s Roger Stern run. Here, he opposes Namor a great deal of the time, as the two shirtless barbarians endlessly measure dicks every time something happens. He boorishly goes after She-Hulk, who admits to finding him attractive, but hates his personality. He's usually used whenever Thor's not available for whatever reason, but maintained a bit of a following- enough that there was a very prominent appearance in the Under Siege story, which featured the Masters of Evil getting him drunk and leading him into an ambush, where he was savagely beaten by Goliath, Mister Hyde and the Wrecking Crew. This led to a very dramatic scene where Herc was nearly dead, and remained comatose for many issues- the first shot of a war that would destroy Avengers Mansion, Captain America's most precious mementos (including the only surviving picture of his mother), and leave Jarvis nearly crippled.

-The very next arc led to Assault On Olympus, where Zeus, outraged over his son's injuries, blames the Avengers and has them captured by the Greek Gods. This leads to several HUGE fight scenes, as the Avengers have to brawl their way through high-powered menaces all over the place, followed by a fight through Pluto's realm, and eventually a fight against Zeus himself. Hercules himself ends the brawl by intervening on his teammates' behalf, finally convincing Zeus that the injuries were his own fault.

Hercules in the 1990s:
-Herc had an unfortunate time in the '90s, as Thor didn't really need him in his own book, and he starred in... the Bomber Jacket Era Avengers, where most of the team started wearing big jackets because the X-Men were doing it, and they wanted to be like the "cool kids"- everyone reading at the time knew what this was about, and the fact that the book took a creative downturn under Bob Harras writing it didn't help. Herc would drop the beard and '60s Kirby Outfit and sport some big '90s shoulder-pads and long hair to make him look more like Kevin Sorbo, then appearing in Hercules: The Legendary Journeys. When Herc offends Zeus some some perceived misdeeds (he attacks his father for creating a woman to fall in love with Herc, as a method of luring out Hera), he is stripped of half his power and barred from Olympus. When The Avengers is mercy-killed following the "Onslaught" thing and the team is killed, Herc is left alive, and joins the short-lived "hey, these characters are free" book Heroes For Hire. Herc shows up a couple of times in Kurt Busiek's Avengers run, but isn't a major character.

The Incredible Hercules:
-And then... Herc became AWESOME. After some brief shots in Civil War (getting the impressive "THOU ART NO THOR!!!!" moment and smashing a Thor Clone to smithereens with a hammer), he is reimagined as a more modern-day kind of guy, dropping the "thees" and "thous", and is paired up with teen genius Amadeus Cho in the Buddy Comedy/Whoring Round The World book The Incredible Hercules. This was just an awesome, awesome series. Part Buddy Comedy, part Superhero Story, part Epic Myth, it's full of classic humor, sex jokes, hot chicks, hot EVIL chicks, James Bondian Girls of the Week (or Arc, as it were), and some pretty cool fight scenes. It's basically the story of Hercules, the jovial, boisterous bruiser of Avengers fame, teaming with little buddy (and Seventh Smartest Person Alive) Amadeus Cho, mentoring the young kid through a series of Greek-themed adventures. All this from a guy who beforehand was a generic replacement Thor, just a bit more bloodthirsty (and stupid... and drunk), who tended to job to the villain so that Thor could look better for beating them.

-This book was HILARIOUS. Herc would always have a new girlfriend in each arc (Namora! Snowbird! A hot Dark Elf!), have to deal with Cho's whining (he is outraged when Herc basically tosses him at a hot Amazon, expecting him to score), and the manipulations of his "holier than thou" sister Athena. Despite being somewhat of a butt-head in these issues, he's shown as an authentically-good hero, scores some great victories (such as an epic win over the Skrull Gods, Kly'bn and Sl'gurt), and more. Plus, the series is full of great onomatopoeia for battlefield noises, such as "KRAKAJAMMA!" for a punch or "SUKKAPUNCH!" for a sneak attack, and the occasional pun-filled ones. There's some great art (Clayton Henry and Rodney Buschemi are AMAZING, with Buschemi drawing the hottest Athena, Aphrodite and Hera ever), fun gags, character-play, and more. In one great scene, Herc & Cho try to sacrifice themselves to save each other, stunning both of them (they'd been fighting) while their jailer can only go "frickin' HEROES...". Hercules is even "killed" by being exiled into an alternate universe, leading to him having to single-handedly save all of existence by fighting a Chaos King that is consuming all the world's divinities.

-Best moment of the run? Probably Hercules (disguised as Thor through some complicated mistakes) fighting Thor (disguised as Hercules), and deliberately throwing the fight (so that the Evil Dark Elves would lose the war against Asgard), proclaiming aloud that "I do, before all those who have assembled here... Let It Be Proclaimed... that MIGHTY THOR has finally, definitively, and COMPLETELY been defeated... by HERCULES, the Lion of Olympus! CONGRATULATIONS, Son of Zeus! Though, truth be told, I have ALWAYS known your brawn and fighting skills SURPASSED my own." How do you not love this guy?

Post-Incredible Hercules:
-Unfortunately, it wasn't to last. The end-game of the Herc arc was a battle against Mikaboshi, but the whole thing just fell flat, as it was a never-ending stream of "Mikaboshi easily beats all the other Pantheons), the one-shots were boring, and the ending was rather disappointing. This led to a de-powered Hercules in his own book again, but without the Epic Bromance of Herc/Cho and the Girls of the Week, the humour wasn't there, and the book failed to last more than a year. A series following the Secret Wars event went nowhere (despite adding the hilarious man-bun to his look, which somehow works when it's on a huge dude instead of coffee-serving hipster), but he managed to rejoin the Avengers for Mark Waid's run, replacing the teen Minority Heroes, along with Spider-Man.

Herculean Might:
-I used to have Herc at PL 12, but I've upgraded him to "just below Thor", who is PL 14. Without the needless hammer (which just made him more of a Thor rip-off), Herc is what he's meant to be- a big, tough PL 13 Melee Powerhouse, designed to take a massive beating and keep on coming back, with immense physical power (his greatest Strength feat- towing the ENTIRE ISLAND OF MANHATTAN via a chain), great durability, and plenty of Willpower to back it up. Anyone who can slug it out with Thor and The Hulk deserves full PL 13 status, I believe- not to mention all the brawls with Ares (who always LOSES to Herc) and Namor (we never got a decisive winner). He's a notch below the full-on PL 14 Thor, but matches my more-liked version, and I generally believe Thor to be a bit superior anyways.

-Oddly, he lacks the sheer recuperative abilities of most of the Greek Pantheon (his ex-wife Hebe collapsed into a bloody, broken pile after a massive fall, and stood up almost immediately, healing before onlookers' very eyes), probably to avoid "breaking" him in terms of power (Olympians regenerated very quickly in their myths, as opposed to the permanent-injuryprone Norse). He grew some skin back pretty quickly after burning poison off of his body, though, so it's a fair amount of Regen. Otherwise, he's just a huge, tough, charismatic brawler (check out his Advantages- very few Powerhouses get to modify almost ALL their caps that way...), and enough of a match for just about anybody. He's much cheaper than Thor by virtue of not having a huge omni-powerful Magic Weapon at his disposal (his own Adamantine Mace is basically a +2 Penetrating 10 Damage Indestructible Mace and that's it- no fancy control), but is a better grappler by a ways, having helped invent "The Pankration".



HERCULES (aka Herakles)- Human Version
Created By: Stan Lee & Jack Kirby
First Appearance: Journey into Mystery Annual #1 (1965)
Role: Thor Rip-Off, Breakout Character (2000s), Boisterous Bruiser, The Dunderhead, The Man-Whore
Group Affiliations: The Avengers, The Olympian Pantheon, The Champions, The God Squad, The Heroes For Hire
PL 10 (181)
STRENGTH 4 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 11 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+5)
Deception 4 (+7, +9 Attractive)
Expertise (Olympian God) 4 (+4)
Expertise (History) 4 (+4)
Expertise (Pop Culture) 5 (+5)
Expertise (Soldier) 7 (+7)
Intimidation 7 (+10)
Perception 5 (+5)
Persuasion 4 (+7, +9 Attractive)
Ranged Combat (Bow & Arrow) 8 (+11)
Sleight of Hand 3 (+3)
Stealth 2 (+4)

Advantages: 
Accurate Attack, All-Out Attack, Attractive, Chokehold, Diehard, Fast Grab, Fearless, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed) 2, Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Improvised Weapon, Luck, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 3, Takedown

Powers:
"The Sword of Peleus" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [7]
Strength-Damage +4 (Feats: Improved Critical 3, Penetrating 4) (11 points)

"The Shield of Perseus" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [39]
Enhanced Dodge 4 & Parry 3 (7)
Extras: Impervious Toughness 8 (Flaws: Sustained +0) (8)
"Madusa's Stare" Affliction 10 (Fort; Dazed & Vulnerable/Immobile & Defenseless/Transformed to Stone & Unaware) (Extras: Continuous +3, Extra Condition, Area- Visual Perception) (Flaws: Permanent) (50)
-- (65 points)

"The Arrows of Heracles" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [12]
Blast 7 (Feats: Split) (Extras: Penetrating 5) (20 points)

"The Helm of Hades" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [12]
Concealment (All Senses) 10 (20 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Sword of Peleus +11 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Arrows of Heracles +11 (+7 Ranged Damage, DC 22)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (+12 Shield, DC 18-22), Parry +11 (+14 Shield, DC 21-24), Toughness +5, Fortitude +5, Will +8

Complications:
Reputation (Man-Whore)
Relationship (Amadeus Cho)- Herc & Amadeus are the best of buds, and would gladly sacrfice themselves for each other. But Cho is NOT Hercules's Eronomous!!
Enemy (Ares)- Herc's brother is kind of an asshole.
Enemy (Hera)- The wife of Herc's dad is kind of a bitch.
Secret (Murdered His Original Family)
Responsibility (Those Close to Him Die)

Total: Abilities: 48 / Skills: 58--29 / Advantages: 20 / Powers: 72 / Defenses: 16 (181)

-So after The Chaos War, Hercules had been de-powered to a mere human-level guy, and these are the states I can glean from his actions and the "fluff" they describe of his weapons. He's basically armed with four separate weapons of Greek mythology, all of which add up to make him JUST as expensive as his PL 13, Super-Strong version! Despite that, he's a "mere" PL 10 here. He loses his old Powers, but gains some fighting skill and accuracy with his bows (since he's "in practise" again, and fighting human-level opponents). Same old Herc otherwise, though, right down to the pimping way with the ladies. PL 9.5-ish with the Sword, and PL 10 with the Shield, allowing him to still beat some guys up- he recently handled The Griffin & Basilisk simultaneously with the help of the Shield (though Basilisk didn't turn to stone).

[catsi563]

re Civil War one of the interesting things to me is how Tony and Reed primarily are compared to Doom. Dooms major arrogance is how he believes via his amazing intellect that hes the only one fit to rule the world. He can see the uncounted futures and only in one is humanity thriving according to his view.

Tony and Reed use much the same thinking process. I'm a super genius I can see the myriad mathematical facts and ONLY BY DOING THIS can we prevent disaster.

they don't take any of the human element into account and create worse solutions to problems that weren't as bad as they appeared. Especially when combined with as Ares said the seeming rapid push of the laws that followed (Sokovia/Stamford)

[BriarThrone]

re Civil War one of the interesting things to me is how Tony and Reed primarily are compared to Doom. Dooms major arrogance is how he believes via his amazing intellect that hes the only one fit to rule the world. He can see the uncounted futures and only in one is humanity thriving according to his view.

Tony and Reed use much the same thinking process. I'm a super genius I can see the myriad mathematical facts and ONLY BY DOING THIS can we prevent disaster.

they don't take any of the human element into account and create worse solutions to problems that weren't as bad as they appeared. Especially when combined with as Ares said the seeming rapid push of the laws that followed (Sokovia/Stamford)

TL;DR: "Reed? Stark? 'Social science' is actually an arts degree. Think about that for a minute."

[Jabroniville]

HERCULES OF THE 24TH CENTURY:
-Okay, I only know this because I was a HUGE fan of The Incredible Hercules, and bought up the first issue of a Hercules mini-series, expecting more of the same. So imagine my surprise when... he's in the future? Running around in space? And suffering from brain damage that's making him pee on plants? What the hell is this?

-Apparently I'd picked up the sequel series to THIS run of the character- a Herc set in the 24th Century, written and drawn by Bob Layton. Hercules had been punished by Zeus and sent to learn humility in outer space, where he would be seen as puny and not as mighty as he would be on Earth. He gets into a lot of antics, such as drugging Galactus (an act that amuses the Devourer of Worlds so much that he decides to spare a world), and ultimately faces down a crazed Zeus, who reveals that it was a test- he leaves to a new plane with the other Olympians, leaving Herc to father a new race of Gods with the Skrull girl Skyppi.

-A Graphic Novel in the same universe came out called Full Circle. A cruel tyrant who turns out to be an illegitimate son of Herc kidnaps the heroes. A final adventure called Twilight of a God is the one I got, and features the grandchildren of Herc, who ultimately sacrifices himself in order to stop the "Galactus Black Hole".

[L-Space]

The Incredible Hercules is amazing! One of the best, funniest comics to come out recently.

When I first heard about the "Hercules as a human' storyline it actually made me think of Clash of the Titans (1981) (the magic sword, shield, and helm) and got my hopes up for it, but man did that series fall short of my expectations. I feel like it should have been more mythologically based; have him face classic Greek monsters in the streets of New York, maybe have him perform the modern day equivalencies of his Twelve Labors, something like that.

[Yojimbo]

Incredible Hercules was pure joy. Fun, funny, occasionally deep, and Pak and Van Lente not only used but respected established Marvel continuity, instead of ignoring it outright like most of the creators at Marvel for the last two decades or so.

I've followed the two Hercules series that followed out of my enjoyment for Incredible Herc, but its never been as good. The Abnett series was almost there, but canceled after six issues.

I'm surprised you didn't mention the two Layton/Michelanie mini-series from the 80s, which were basically the template for Incredible Herc. Big brawls, misunderstandings, space adventures, a drag-out duel with Zeus, and of course - getting Galactus drunk.

[Jabroniville]

I just added that bit . I never read that series, unfortunately.

[Jabroniville]

I just recalled a great bunch of quotes from a "New Mutants" issue in the '80s.

----
I was surprised because Louise Simonson sucked on the book, but then I realized that Chris Claremont was guesting this later issue (#81):

Magma is going through a religious crisis regarding Hercules, who's being an ass, as usual. As a Nova Roman, she worships said God, but he's kind of a tool. But he & her save some people from a burning apartment building, but one kid is badly burned saving his younger brother. The doctors explain there's nothing they can do, and the two mourn the boy's passing.

Herc: "I am an immortal. Three-thousand years and more have I walked this Earth -- in that time, I have seen and done so much-- yet the one thing I have never learned is how to endure the death of a friend. You mortals are so frail, you live so short a time, how do you stand it? This boy was as brave a warrior as any I have ever known. Compared to him... I am NOTHING."

He cries, and Amara bows before him, realizing that his grief at this loss makes him worthy of worship after all. He corrects her:
"No, lass, NO! It is I who should bow to you-- for which is the more deserving: The eternal Godling who is virtually impervious to death... who lives forever yet as learned so little from the experience. Or you mortals, whose very existence is a never-ending duel with the Reaper. A contest whose outcome is preordained. Bravery and heroics come naturally to me, for the risks I take are small. It is you, who gamble all with every breath, who embody the true miracle. Do not acclaim me as a God, Amara, or venerate my name... until I truly prove myself worthy."

Claremont in the '80s was a freaking GOD.

[BriarThrone]

The thing with Hercules is that when dealing with myths, legends, or classic stories, adaptations should have two priorities. First and most important, tell a great story. Second, be faithful enough to the source to justify using it. Marvel missed the second mark with the Asgardians, and often the first mark as well, over the years.

Incredible Hercules nailed it on both. Just amazing.

I like the build. That seems like a really difficult to defeat PL13.

[Arkrite]

I also wish there had been people willing to refute the Pro-Accords side a bit, but I realize that doing so would have made the Pro-Side look even weaker. People keep calling T'Challa's father a good man, but he goes along with his role of playing the victim, blaming Wanda for the deaths of his people, calling her a dangerous weapon, when someone easily could had pointed out that her actions saved many more lives than those who died. That if she'd done nothing, many more people would have died in the market, but then they wouldn't have been Wakandans, so it wouldn't have been his problem, right?

Likewise, when Ross is showing clips of Avengers 1, Capt. America 2 and Avengers 2, no one points out that the destruction that alternative to the destruction that occurred was THE END OF THE WORLD. The casualties that occurred were the minimum casualties the situation allowed for, and the heroes made a concentrated effort to save as many people as possible.

Yeah, it seems bizzare that the Avengers just sit there and nod while they're told their the badguys...
You'd expect them to stand up for themselves, or at least point out that they prevented the government from nuking their own people.

But I kind of felt like everybody kind of got made a little dumber for that movie so things would work according to the script.