Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Ken
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Saturn Girl! Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy!)

Post by Ken »

Batgirl III wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:08 pm There were the Batmen of All Nations, a dozen or so other foreign heroes, and some other “also rans.” But certainly less than 100. Add in the villains, you’ve maybe got 200-300 super-people on the original Earth 1... Less than half of them with actual superpowers.
Yes, but before the Legion lived on Earth-One, they lived on Earth-Weisinger, and that Earth had even fewer super heroes and super heroes with powers.... Superman, Supergirl, Aquaman, and maybe Flash and Wonder Woman.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Saturn Girl! Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy!)

Post by Batgirl III »

Hell, with the weird way the timeline and time travel worked, there was really just Superboy.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Saturn Girl! Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Ugh- a whole page of STARGATE commens? Am I in Hell?
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Saturn Girl! Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy!)

Post by Goldar »

HalloweenJack wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:33 pm so....it may have been mentioned in universe or even in this thread, but it just occurred to me....where are all the adult superheroes in the 30th Century?
Wasn't that a Legion story? Adult versions with powers who were evil and Superior to the Legion? I think Saturn Queen was one of the members with telepathy and hypnotism powers greater than Saturn Girl.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Saturn Girl! Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy!)

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Goldar wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:16 pm
HalloweenJack wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:33 pm so....it may have been mentioned in universe or even in this thread, but it just occurred to me....where are all the adult superheroes in the 30th Century?
Wasn't that a Legion story? Adult versions with powers who were evil and Superior to the Legion? I think Saturn Queen was one of the members with telepathy and hypnotism powers greater than Saturn Girl.
That was a version of the Legion of Supervillains, adult villains who came to the past to try and kill the kids when they were less experienced. Lightning Lord, Cosmic King and Saturn Queen. Eventually we'd see younger versions of those villains appear in the proper timeline.
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Karate Kid

Post by Jabroniville »

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The high point of the panel had to be when, in response to a fan question, Giffen voiced his ire for the character Karate Kid.

“I hate that character,” he said good-naturedly. “I agreed to come on Countdown only if I could kill him. If I come on Legion again, he’s dead.” 

Why does he hate him so much? “Two words put together. Super-Karate.”

“Everyone in this field has characters they hate,” Giffen said. “I just have the bad taste to say it out loud.”


KARATE KID I (Val Armorr)
Created By:
Jim Shooter
First Appearance: Adventure Comics #346 (July 1966)
Home Planet: Earth
Origin of Powers: Training His Ass Off
Eras: All Three
Relationships: Princess Projectra (original), Shadow Lass & others (Threeboot)
Role: Martial Artist Supreme
PL 12 (176)
STRENGTH
4 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 8
FIGHTING 14 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Acrobatics 7 (+15)
Athletics 10 (+14)
Close Attack (Unarmed) 4 (+18)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 6 (+7)
Expertise (History) 5 (+6)
Expertise (Survival) 4 (+7)
Expertise (Martial Arts) 13 (+14)
Perception 5 (+8)
Stealth 3 (+10)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Agile Feint, All-Out Attack, Assessment, Defensive Attack, Diehard, Equipment 10 (Legion Gear), Fast Grab, Fearless, Grab Finesse, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Unarmed) 3, Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Prone Fighting, Ranged Attack 5, Set-Up, Takedown 2, Teamwork, Uncanny Dodge, Weapon Bind

Powers:
"Super-Karate"
Strength-Damage +2 (Extras: Penetrating 8) [10]
"Mind Shield" Enhanced Will Save 4 (Flaws: Limited to Mental Saves) [2]

Equipment:
"Legion Gear"
"Telepathic Ear Plug" Comprehend 3 (Languages) (6)

"Legion Flight Ring"
Flight 7 (250 mph) (14)
Immunity 7 (Hot, Cold, Vacuum, Pressure, Radiation, Suffocation 2) (7)
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) (2)
Communication 5 (Flaws: Fifth Rank is only towards Legionnaires) (18)

Offense:
Unarmed +18 (+6 Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +8

Defenses:
Dodge +14 (DC 24), Parry +17 (DC 27), Toughness +5, Fortitude +6, Will +8 (+12 vs. Mental Attacks)

Complications: 
Honor (The Code of Bushi-Do: The Way of the Warrior)
Relationship (Princess Projectra)

Total: Abilities: 80 / Skills: 60--30 / Advantages: 39 / Powers: 12 / Defenses: 15 (176)

Silver Age Karate Kid:
-Karate Kid is a character who can unfortunately only create giggles with his mention sometimes, thanks in part to a movie released nearly two decades after Val Armorr debuted in a Legion comic. Not that "Karate Kid" is a particularly good nickname anyhow. The character was initially a bit forgotten on his own team, before getting one of the greatest death scenes in comic history, but has since been kind of admired these days as a bastion of either Silver Age Silliness ("Super Karate" that can do anything) or good, old-fashioned Power Geeking.

-A kid so bad-ass that he could tangle with super-villains using only his martial arts, he was notable for tossing around Superboy in his first appearance (thought it should be noted he didn't actually HURT ol' Clark; he just knocked him over once and dodged his punches- some people act like he should be PL 14-15 because of that). He didn't get as much use as many other Legionnaires, probably because he was less flashy than them and often acted like a tool, but he had a resurgence with the Martial Arts fad of the '70s. 

-Val Armorr is the son of one of Japan's greatest crime lords, but his American mother (a secret agent), tried to hide him. She was killed for her efforts, and Val was adoped by Japan's greatest hero, who trained the boy in the martial arts. After failing to please his supervisor in Earth's martial arts, he traveled the universe to find more forms to study. When the Legion announced try-outs to build an army to battle the Khunds, and was selected when he proved capable of giving SUPERBOY trouble in a fight, despite lacking any "super-powers". He was framed by fellow recruit Nemesis Kid, but the treachery was discovered, and the villain expelled (he would not forget this slight).

-Val would prove himself on numerous occasions, like beaten three members of the Fatal Five simultaneously, but his biggest thing was sheer courage- he would throw himself into unarmed combat with monsters like Validus and Darkseid! Falling in love with Princess Projectra, he would leave the Legion to woo her, and also moved to the 20th Century for a time, having his own solo book for fifteen issues, starting in 1976. He would quit the Legion to become Projectra's consort on Orando. Alas, this would not last.

One Hell of a Death:
-Val would end up getting a GREAT death scene, when a vengeful Nemesis Kid arrived on Orando with the Legion of Super-Villains, quickly taking over. Val fought back, but the baddie taunted him- his own ability (to counter the powers of any rival) allowed him to AUTOMATICALLY gain abilities greater than those Val had fought his entire life attaining. With Val beaten nearly to death (so badly they couldn't even show his injuries on panel!), he managed the force of will to ignore Nemesis Kid and sacrifice his life to stop the bad guys' technology from separating Orando from regular space. His burned, charred body were all that remained- a heartbroken Princess snapped the villain's neck, as was her right as ruler of her planet. Keith Giffen, co-creator at the time, admitted that he killed Karate Kid largely because he thought "Super-Karate" was a dumb power, but wow- what a way to go out.

-A guy named Myg would take the role of "Karate Kid II" and join the Legion, and we'd also see an "SW6" clone, but he would die fighting the Dominators in the "Five Years Later" era.

Karate Kid- Power-Geek's Dream:
-I actually remember him most from the old WizardWorld forum, back when their "SuperHero ShowDown" forum featured prospective battles between comic characters. Usually it was just endless Superman (vs) Thor, Superman (vs) Hulk, Hulk (vs) Thor, Superman (vs) Goku, etc., battles between the most-famous Top Tiers, BUT every once in a while, a new character would become popular after someone pimped some of his old feats. At one point, Wundarr the Aquarian became super-popular and made the rounds between all the other Top Tiers. Then, we had Pre-Crisis Superman with a Magic Sword (from... some issue. I have no idea). And at one point, in came Val Armorr, with stories of his planet-breaking Karate Chops and ability to beat Kryptonians (nowadays, people would demand scans. This was years ago). Thankfully, I never get involved in "Versus Battles" these days (it seemed WAY too much effort to put into what I consider a less-important part of comics, especially since I prefer books where most people could win in fights against each other), though in a way, determining PLs is the same sort of thing.

Later Karate Kids:
-The Reboot era saw a version of Karate Kid- this one joining the "Workforce" team so that he could travel to different planets and learn new martial arts. He eventually abandoned the team when he saw how immoral their leader was, and joined the Legion. "Threeboot" Val would be depicted with more Asian features... until he wasn't, because an artist probably forgot. Here, he dated Shadow Lass and had a crush on Phantom Girl (which was not reciprocated), and also grew close with Light Lass. 

-Karate Kid was central to the rebirth of the old-school Legion in the Post-Infinite Crisis era. He is announced as being the same one who'd died fighting Nemesis Kid all those years ago, and chooses to stay in the past, rather than return to the 31st Century. However, he is killed in some story involving Brother Eye and Una (the remaining "Duo Damsel" duplicate) after contracting an illness- this is said to be Keith Giffen wanting to kill the character AGAIN, simply refusing to accept his "silly" powers.

-Giffen's eternal grudge against the character is bizarre, petty, an affront to anyone who actually enjoys the character, and something I would ABSOLUTELY do if I ever got real power in comics- can you imagine how much fun it would be resurrecting and then killing the Sentry over and over again? I'd ruin that character's credibility so bad he'd never recover! It would be AWESOME!! But it's still very weird- no other writer indulges their grudges this way. Never mind that Giffen loves friggin' MATTER-EATER LAD, who is a thousand times more stupid than Karate Kid could ever hope to be (and certainly never hurts the entire credibility of the LOSH franchise like Tenzil does just by existing).

Karate Kid's Might:
-Val Armorr is supposed to be one of the greatest martial artists ever, and is known to be able to damage steel or other super-hard objects just with his raw karate force. He's elite as hell, making PL 12 as an unarmed human, which is UNHEARD OF- he can be seen as more threatening at times, but a lot of his feats and "Good Showings" are due to good defense and some luck. This makes him more elite than many of the Legion compared to how he was often shown (he never really BEAT Superboy-class guys, it was just shown that he could give them trouble- he went down in combat as often as any of them, as his Attack & Defense Bonuses are ridiculously high. He's PL 12 on offense, PL 11 to parry, and PL 9 to Dodge.

-Val's max damage is only +6, but that's what Power Attack's there for, giving him +11 Damage if he sacrifices some accuracy (and +13 accuracy is still MUCH better than most of the Legion's attacks), allowing him to break some pretty tough metals easily, and the rest can be handled by expending a Hero Point and going past his limits. I was all proud of myself for his limits, and then I read the pretty great build in DC Heroes & Villains and found out they used most of the same ones (though they made him more accurate and a bit weaker). In any case, Val is good enough to handily be the best human martial artist in the universe- he could beat the PISS out of Batman (or any DC martial artist, really), and is out of the weight class of Iron Fist, Shang-Chi and Daredevil, too. Your best bet is Ranged & Area Attacks- the great equalizer to a hand-to-hand specialist.

-Val, because of Battle-Boarding, Power-Geeking, and wishful thinking, is often thought of as being even PAST this, but it's not really accurate, in my opinion. The Legion's "Heavy Hitters" were Mon-El, Ultra Boy & Superboy, with the occasional placement of Wildfire. Karate Kid isn't anywhere above PL 12, to me. Hell, most of the comics I have featuring the character have him no more effective than anybody else on the team, and he often takes taken by surprise (like from Projectra's cousin's suprise magical blast).
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed May 25, 2022 11:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Goldar
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Goldar »

Hey, wait...is that our Gal Thundra fighting Val? (Val Armorr not Valkyrie, that is!)
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Skaramine »

Fan art is awesome!

Quantum and Cosmic Boy close together brought to mind a few thoughts.

Technology and the Legion is an interesting idea, but as with my guy Mace, in many versions, took Cosmic Boy's power set and realized "I might not have metal around to fight."

Originally, my concept was a length of light chain to act as an artificial tentacle. Then it was a steel cable (and dressing up in a Solomon Kane cape and hat).

But, apparently unlike Heroes Unlimited, you can fire Magnetic Pulses and erect Force Fields.

I also liked Lodestone from the Doom Patrol who used magnetic fields to boost her physical abilities.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Batgirl III »

Fun Fact! The studio had to obtain permission from DC Comics to use “The Karate Kid” as the title of the film.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Jabroniville »

Goldar wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:06 am Hey, wait...is that our Gal Thundra fighting Val? (Val Armorr not Valkyrie, that is!)
Somebody has a HUGE mad-on for Val fighting every single other character in comics. His ComicVine page is 90% pictures of him fighting The Red Hood, Squirrel Girl, Deathstroke, Crossbones, Robin, etc. It's CRAZY. The single most fanart-intensive set of pics for any comic book character... INCLUDING EMMA FROST.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Ken »

Superman Annual #10 Image
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Davies »

While I don't hate 'Karate Kid' as much as a certain someone does, I have to say that I view his alias as absurd, and grossly reductive. "I have mastery of thousands of fighting styles from across the galaxy" reduced to "I am really really good at Okinawan/Japanese kickboxing" just doesn't make much sense to me. I'd definitely rename and redesign him if given the opportunity.
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Re: Karate Kid

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:23 pm Image
You know, I would happily do to one of these characters that Keith Giffen has repeatedly done to the other.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Ken »

Batgirl III wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:20 am Fun Fact! The studio had to obtain permission from DC Comics to use “The Karate Kid” as the title of the film.
Made more bizarre in the remake where the kid used kung fu, not karate.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Ken »

Davies wrote: Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:29 am While I don't hate 'Karate Kid' as much as a certain someone does, I have to say that I view his alias as absurd, and grossly reductive. "I have mastery of thousands of fighting styles from across the galaxy" reduced to "I am really really good at Okinawan/Japanese kickboxing" just doesn't make much sense to me. I'd definitely rename and redesign him if given the opportunity.
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