Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

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Ares
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Black Cauldron! Tron! Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan!)

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greycrusader wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:58 am The most annoying thing about TRON was it convinced so many people to this day netspace/the cloud/whatever is somehow another freaking dimension. Which makes no more sense than people thinking there's another dimension associated with printers or cable TVs or arcade games (yeah, Wreck It Ralph, but adults don't take that one seriously).

Still, the patented David Warner villain makes up for a lot, even if he is just doing the ka-jillionth iteration of his EVIL! guy from Time Bandits.

All my best.
One of my own interpretations of the movie revolves around the reason why programs resemble their human creators, beyond a convenient way to re-use actors. Namely that when people create something, we put a little bit of ourselves, a bit of our souls, as it were, into what we create. Programs like Tron have a lot of personality, strength and the like because Alan spent so much time working on him and investing in him, whereas the MCP was built by committee and thus doesn't really have a 'soul' of its own.

Going that route, I could see the "cyberspace" we see in Tron being some sort of weird digital version of the Astral Plane or the Dresden Files Nevernever, where things that happen in a computer system play out via computer codes and the like instead happen in a more relatable, human way.

Of course, that's just me spinning something years after the fact and certainly not what was intended. The idea of their being a digital universe inside of cyberspace is silly, but eh, it makes for a fun adventure film.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Black Cauldron! Tron! Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

You're saying Superhuman Samurai Syber Squad is still huh? Well I never.....most unorthodox. MOST.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Black Cauldron! Tron! Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan!)

Post by Ken »

HalloweenJack wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:41 pmalso Vincent Price is the best in anything.
There are five episodes of Batman where Egghead was the lead villain that disagree with that statement.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Black Cauldron! Tron! Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan!)

Post by Ares »

HalloweenJack wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 1:26 am You're saying Superhuman Samurai Syber Squad is still huh? Well I never.....most unorthodox. MOST.
Funny you mention that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGw4SmxkryU
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Black Cauldron! Tron! Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Lol- defensive BILLY JOEL fans. Now that, I wasn’t expecting :).
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Who Framed Roger Rabbit

Post by Jabroniville »

WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT (1988):
Written by:
Gary K. Wolf (original novel), Jeffery Price & Peter S. Seaman

-This movie is considered, along with The Little Mermaid, as helping kick off the Renaissance Age of Animation. Based off of a novel called Who Censored Roger Rabbit?, they changed a lot of the plot and surroundings (the author admits this was a good idea, and the movie version is better than his darker version), took out the question mark (bad luck in Hollywood, apparently, to include question marks in titles), and basically reinvented a style of animation- the merging of live actors with cartoons on-screen. This was INSANE for the time, and would still take a crap-ton of effort today- animators still use the term "Bump the Lamp" today to refer to taking the extra mile to make the animation look good and "right", even though most people won't notice it- it's named for a scene where they bump a lamp at the bar (when Dolores is helping them with the handcuffs) and the animators had to fix the shadows on everything in frame.

There is a TON of memorable characters in this movie, with Eddie Valiant as the hard-bitten detective, Roger Rabbit as the insane, foolish butt-monkey, Baby Herman as the perverted "adult" baby, Jessica Rabbit as the embodiment of all wet dreams, and Judge Doom as a vicious Nightmare Fuel Big Bad. The movie was a monster smash (at the time, it was the twelfth-highest-grossing film EVER), and is extremely famous. However, the owners have all resisted efforts for sequels and spin-offs, refusing on several occasions (the show Bonkers was supposed to be a spin-off, but instead just takes ideas from it). It's pretty much a shining example of both Film Noir, Animated Films, and the fact that cartoons don't always have to be for kids (there's enough swearing and horrific murders of poor innocent shoes to keep kids away from this one), though most imitators came up short (Cool World did some damage to Ralph Bakshi's career, for instance). This remains the only real crossover between Disney, MGM and Warner Brothers.

One of the neatest, underrated scenes in the movie is his little thing with Betty Boop in the club. While he acts like an anti-toon bigot and a grump, he's legitimately concerned that someone as sweet as Betty is working in a seedy nightclub, and when she does the "Boo-boop-bee-doop!" dance, he gives her the sweetest little smile and indicates "Yeah, you still got it". It's a "little thing" that basically lets you know immediately that the old drunk is a nice guy underneath it all, showing some genuine affection for one of the toons he knows personally.

They also really brilliantly set up a lot of the later movie, so nothing feels like they just pulled it out of their ass. Laughter is stated to be deadly to the "Hyenas" the Weasels replaced, and Doom repeatedly warns them to stop laughing. The Acme Warehouse at the movie's climax is seen earlier, and both the Hole and the Hammer (props Eddie uses to save his own life) are established by the cops that are screwing around with them. Any outlandish prop Eddie finds only in the final scene (the giant magnet, for example) ends up not being useful, but these two are set up earlier on.

But man, everyone I know mainly remembers that scene with the goddamn SHOE...

Reception & Cultural Impact:
-Oddly, this didn't really set off a huge "Toons With Live Actors" craze, largely because of how INSANELY difficult that is to actually do. Cool World bombing put a nail in the coffin, too. But this movie did INSANELY well, and led to a number of Roger Rabbit shorts, the Bonkers series, and even a Car Toon Spin dark ride at the Disney Parks- both Disneyland and Tokyo Disneyland have "Toon Towns" based around a combination of Roger Rabbit and Mickey Mouse, complete with Benny the Cab appearing out of a large building (this moving animatronic is nearly always broken and immobile, however). The ride is popular enough (despite dropping the planned feature that would have the cars literally moving outside the building during the ride) that it remains the one major obstacle to demolishing all of the much-maligned, rarely-upgraded Toon Town and replacing it with a more popular IP in the Park. The other obstacle is the fact that it's the staging ground for the daily fireworks show, which means you have to close it early, no matter WHAT'S in there.

A proposed sequel has been in Developmental Hell for half a century- the advent of CGI helped kibosh the first one, plus Steven Spielberg's both starting up DreamWorks and not wanting to deal satirically with Nazis (the proposed subject matter of the sequel- Spielberg had just done Schindler's List). Then director Robert Zemeckis lost his studio. Then Disney corporate changed over many times. The current mindset of the studio has little love for, say, Jessica Rabbit (Zemeckis points this out as a specific reason, also adding the "sexiness" of the film isn't their style at the moment), and sequels are not proven moneymakers any longer. Plus the original movie is too far in the past. AND Bob Hoskins died, taking out the heart of the project.

The REAL impact, however, is on the minds of the public- people now realized the full breadth of what animation could do- most of what we see today is, in fact, a LITTLE bit inspired by this film. More "adult" jokes, less "animation = only for kids", etc. South Park, Beavis and Butt-Head and more all owe this movie a tremendous debt.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Black Cauldron! Tron! Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan!)

Post by Jabroniville »

HalloweenJack wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:41 pm also Vincent Price is the best in anything.




as for Oliver and Company...man when I was a little kid I SO wanted to see that movie....but never did, not even to this day.

I know I STILL have the toys from McDonalds boxed up somewhere. I had Oliver, Dodger, and whatever the poodle Bette Midler played was named
Probably doesn't help that Disney barely releases it anymore, barely talks about it, and I don't think even shows up on TV very often.

I actually rented it long BEFORE my "Disney Builds" set in 2013, probably just out of curiosity. It's oddly stacked with celebrities for a 1980s Disney movie- those really wouldn't start in earnest until The Lion King, and even then, you rarely saw THAT many.
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Re: The Great Mouse Detective

Post by Jabroniville »

MacynSnow wrote: Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:31 pm MACYN'S HOLMESIAN REVIEW OF DISNEY'S THE GREAT MOUSE DETECTIVE (1986):
Oh, good! I was worried when you said you had this ready, but didn't post it all day :).
SOURCE OF THE STORY:
Now i'm not gonna re-tell you the Disney story here,jab's already dona terrific job on that already.Instead,i'm going to tell you where the original book writer(Eve Titus) might have got her inspiration and where Eisner and his buddies got the movie plot. More than likely, Titus gleamed the original book series idea from the Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce performances of Holmes&Watson from back in the late30's and early 40's (Basil of Baker Street is an almost straight rip-off of Rathbone's performance style,right down to his walk. Dawson is honestly more of a caricature of How Nigel acted).While i like Eve's idea(make a more kid-friendly version of the Doyle books as a stepping stone),i think her execution was a little off(IMO she dumbed it down TOO much,unintentionally insulting children's inrelligence...Ok,so i just so happen to believe Mr.Rogers had a valid point...).
Oh, interesting! I didn't realize that Basil's movements were copied from the source, being unfamiliar with the movies of the '30s.
MAIN 'CAST' PORTRAITS:
here's where i break down how each character from this would fit as it's own 'Holmes Story'.Now these are just where I see them at,so take all this for the grain of salt it's worth....
Basil of Baker Street=Nicely voiced by Barry Ingham,Basil here unfortunately got a bad hit of Disney-itus(Where Disney turn's a perfectly good character into an overtly-rude Asshat for 80% of the film), as the original book version more closely resembled Rathbone's version of Holmes(While mildly condensating,he was never overtly rude.While he also lacked sympathy,the live-action Movie this is partly taken from has a good example of this,he is not without humanity)...
"Sherlock the Brilliant Asshole" seems to be a recurring element of the character throughout fiction, being more pronounced as our society appreciates Asshole Heroes all the more with each passing generation. I don't remember the original character being that bad (okay, so I've only read The Hound of the Baskervilles). Basil in particular seems impatient, weird and obsessive.


Thanks for the review!
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Black Cauldron! Tron! Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan!)

Post by Jabroniville »

catsi563 wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:31 am Also Downeaster Alexa, or River of Dreams, Honesty, Anthonys Song, Still Rock and Roll to me, Joels got a lot of classic anthems that have remained timeless over the decades.
*checks YouTube*

...


AAAAGH OH GOD IT'S THAT ACKACKACKACKACKACKACKACKACK SONG!!! WHO LET CATHY GUISEWHITE WRITE THE LYRICS?!??!

*checks further*

...


OH MY GOD HE'S RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT SONG ABOUT RIVERS AGH!!!


Billy Joel is now my arch-nemesis :P
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Re: The Great Mouse Detective

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Jabroniville wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:31 am
"Sherlock the Brilliant Asshole" seems to be a recurring element of the character throughout fiction, being more pronounced as our society appreciates Asshole Heroes all the more with each passing generation.
A trend I absolutely despise since it basically encourages people to act like assholes while still being able to justify themselves as being in the right. Like its socially acceptable to be a jerk and encourages some people to act like jerks.
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Re: The Great Mouse Detective

Post by MacynSnow »

Ares wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:40 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:31 am
"Sherlock the Brilliant Asshole" seems to be a recurring element of the character throughout fiction, being more pronounced as our society appreciates Asshole Heroes all the more with each passing generation.
A trend I absolutely despise since it basically encourages people to act like assholes while still being able to justify themselves as being in the right. Like its socially acceptable to be a jerk and encourages some people to act like jerks.
I'm with you Ares.Admittedly,i was raised with more of a 40's-50's sense of Right&Wrong(with a dose of 80's Agression and 90's Attitude),but the "Brilliant Asshole" trend just seems stupidly ignorant to me.Logically,you could never work with that type of person regardless of how Good they were at what they did...
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Re: The Great Mouse Detective

Post by Ares »

MacynSnow wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:13 pm
Ares wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:40 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:31 am
"Sherlock the Brilliant Asshole" seems to be a recurring element of the character throughout fiction, being more pronounced as our society appreciates Asshole Heroes all the more with each passing generation.
A trend I absolutely despise since it basically encourages people to act like assholes while still being able to justify themselves as being in the right. Like its socially acceptable to be a jerk and encourages some people to act like jerks.
I'm with you Ares.Admittedly,i was raised with more of a 40's-50's sense of Right&Wrong(with a dose of 80's Agression and 90's Attitude),but the "Brilliant Asshole" trend just seems stupidly ignorant to me.Logically,you could never work with that type of person regardless of how Good they were at what they did...
I could never get into shows like "House" for that very reason.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: The Great Mouse Detective

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Ares wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:22 pmI could never get into shows like "House" for that very reason.
Eh, House worked for me in that aspect because it acknowledged his assholery and made it clear that it was driving people away from him and making him miserable. It wasn't celebrated, but rather pointed out as a serious character flaw.
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Re: The Great Mouse Detective

Post by Woodclaw »

Ares wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:22 pm
MacynSnow wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:13 pm
Ares wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:40 pm

A trend I absolutely despise since it basically encourages people to act like assholes while still being able to justify themselves as being in the right. Like its socially acceptable to be a jerk and encourages some people to act like jerks.
I'm with you Ares.Admittedly,i was raised with more of a 40's-50's sense of Right&Wrong(with a dose of 80's Agression and 90's Attitude),but the "Brilliant Asshole" trend just seems stupidly ignorant to me.Logically,you could never work with that type of person regardless of how Good they were at what they did...
I could never get into shows like "House" for that very reason.
Ditto here. In fact I had the occasion to talk to a number of real medical practitioner and they unanimously said that they won't work with such a man like House for the simple fact that having such a toxic behaviour will probably create so much friction that the patient would suffer.
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Eddie Valiant

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

EDDIE VALIANT
Played by:
Bob Hoskins
Role: Hard-Boiled Detective, Cynical Loner
PL 5 (85)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 1
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Deception 6 (+7)
Expertise (Streetwise) 5 (+7)
Expertise (Toons) 9 (+11)
Expertise (Song & Dance) 4 (+6)
Insight 3 (+6)
Intimidation 4 (+5)
Investigation 9 (+12)
Perception 3 (+6)
Stealth 5 (+6)

Advantages:
Equipment 3 (Detective Gear, Cartoon Gun), Fast Grab, Improved Trip, Ranged Attack 2

Offense:
Unarmed +7 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Initiative +7

Defenses:
Dodge +7 (DC 17), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +2, Fortitude +2, Will +6

Complications:
Prejudice (Toons)- Eddie shows at best an eye-rolling disgust towards Toons (holding a bit of a soft spot for Betty Boop), and at worst an all-out bigotry. It all stems from the loss of his brother, Theodore.
Relationship (Teddy Valiant)- Eddie & Teddy were tight as it got, and regularly goofed-off and helped out various Toons in need (saving Goofy from a spy rap, and rescuing Donald's Nephews). But when a Toon dropped a piano on Teddy's head, everything changed.
Addiction (Alcohol)- Eddie spends a lot of time drunk. He IS a Noir Detective, after all. He's nicknamed "Jack Daniels" by his former co-workers, and Roger Rabbit uses it to find out where he lives ("But the LIQUOR STORE GUY- he knew!").
Reputation ("Didn't You Used to Be Eddie Valiant?")- Eddie was well-known for his "Detective To the Toons" cases, and people still give him a hard time over it- especially now that he's a drunk.

Total: Abilities: 46 / Skills: 48--24 / Advantages: 7 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 10 (85)

-Eddie is your classic Film Noir Protagonist- hard-assed, sarcastic, bitter, drunk and prone to dealing with large-breasted dames who have problems. Of course he's got a Rick Blaine-like Sad Past to deal with and lots of booze to drink down, and he has to get over his prejudice against Toons long enough to save the most annoying roommate in HISTORY, even if he doesn't really want to. Words cannot describe how great Bob Hoskins was in this role- he had to basically act for himself in DOZENS of scenes, merely PRETENDING Toons were in front of him (scenes were "blocked" using models, and the voice actors were just off-camera to help, but it's mostly Bob 90% of the time- he notes that you can't look right at the wall- you have to focus your eyes three feet in FRONT of yourself). And he does it REALLY WELL- many scenes are convincing, and shots where you can see he's not really holding onto something are few and far between. Keep in mind that Liam Neeson, Ewan McGregor, Natalie Portman & Hayden Christensen gave some of the worst, most emotionalless performances in cinema history in the same circumstances (the first three are actually talented actors, too). To be frank, he absolutely deserved an Oscar that year, but wasn't even nominated- this is one of the greatest performances ever. This film should have made him an instant star, but being short, old & overweight combined with starring in that theatrical abortion known as Super Mario Bros. did his career in pretty well.

-There's so much great stuff with Haskins' acting. Despite being a boorish, drunken grouch for the whole movie, he shows genuine affection for Betty Boop in a fatherly way ("Yeah, you still got it"). His reaction of Jessica Rabbit is along the lines of Sam Neil's "Holy SHIT!" reaction to seeing a Brachiosaurus for the first time in Jurassic Park. That scene where he happily looks at the photos of him and Dolores on vacation... and then immediately tears up when he spots the pictures of himself with his dead brother (and right then, the camera pans over to the desk, where Teddy's stuff sits covered in dust). The countless scenes with Roger and the Weasels. And then he has to pull off a song & dance routine like a clown.

-Eddie's a good Noir Detective, being a solid fighter (enough to handle a gang of Weasels at once, and beat the snot out of a barfly with ease), a good Investigator and fairly Stealthy, but he's not tough enough to withstand gunfire or the like. PL 5 suits people like him just fine- extremely skilled, but still human. At one point, he uses a gun that fires Toon Bullets (ie. sentient but moronic Western Stereotypes), which is like an Unreliable Gun (Blast 5 or so), but he fails to really accomplish anything with it. Using a gun would boost him to PL 6.

About the Performer: Bob Hoskins has a pretty minor career, being a short, chubby actor, but his co-stars always spoke highly of him. This is his most popular role by far- Mario Bros. killed off all the momentum it gave him, however. Nonetheless, he had won many awards before he died, so definitely had credibility and respect.
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