Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

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Ares
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Re: Plasmus

Post by Ares »

Jack of Spades wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:33 am
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:57 am-Plasmus has one of the more unfortunate power-sets for a super-villain to have, in that his TOUCH is FATAL, which means of course that he CAN NEVER USE IT on a super-hero, or the story's over.
I think you're overstating the case here, Jab. I remember several occasions where Plasmus got his hands on Donna or Vic, and while they were burned it really wasn't any worse than wrestling with the Human Torch (if the Torch also had super-strength and durability). It's just corrosive damage rather than fire.
Yeah, it was an acid attack, but when grappling someone like Steel (the patriotic one), the acid damaged his armor and hurt him, but it wasn't an instant death attack the way Mano's hand is suppose to be.
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Re: Plasmus

Post by Jabroniville »

Jack of Spades wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:33 am
Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:57 am-Plasmus has one of the more unfortunate power-sets for a super-villain to have, in that his TOUCH is FATAL, which means of course that he CAN NEVER USE IT on a super-hero, or the story's over.
I think you're overstating the case here, Jab. I remember several occasions where Plasmus got his hands on Donna or Vic, and while they were burned it really wasn't any worse than wrestling with the Human Torch (if the Torch also had super-strength and durability). It's just corrosive damage rather than fire.
Okay, well, PRETTY close, I guess :). I think I remember the stuff with Vic, because of course his metal bits won't turn out as grotesquely as human flesh, so he's ideal to show how "serious" such a threat is. I don't think Plasmus ever tagged a non-durable superhero with it, though.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Terra! Supergirls! Kyle Rayner! Mr. Twister!)

Post by Ares »

I always feel bad for folks with healing factors and cybernetics in fiction. They're the only ones allowed to really get hurt to show what a danger the villain is.

In Justice League, Steppenwolf rips Cyborg in half, but only Cyborg.

In the Death of Superman animated movie, Cyborg gets an arm ripped off despite Hawkman and Aquaman also engaging Doomsday in melee.

In Deadpool 2, the only person the Juggernaut really injures is Deadpool. Which is lucky for Cable, because had DP not been there, you know Cable's cyber arm would have gotten ripped off.

In the new Season of Young Justice, Halo has the ability to regenerate and come back to life. So of course, when Lobo shows up, it's Halo that gets gutted, rather than Nightwing, Tigress or anyone else.

You could maybe make a case that these guys are less careful because they know they can regenerate or be repaired, but it's just so transparent how they're the ones that get hurt because the writer wants to show the stakes, but can't actually let anyone else get hurt.

This is one reason why I wish healers were more common in superhero fiction. It'd let other people get hurt and then the question becomes whether they'll be healed in time, rather than just the usual suspects getting an arm ripped off every time.

That or just turn it into some kind of game.

"Yes! Cyborg lost an arm this time. You owe my a beer."

"Damnit, I was sure the bad guy would go for the legs this time."
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Terra! Supergirls! Kyle Rayner! Mr. Twister!)

Post by Jabroniville »

One final bit on the original Titans class:

Re-reading old "Teen Titans" books from the 1980s is always a treat. What's astounding is how MUCH TIME some of these issues take to read! There is just page after page full of detail, explanations and dialogue, and none of it's just filler! The books have a lot in common with Claremont's X-Men in that regard- the books are of the same era, and are both very wordy and "full" by today's standards. There are comics today I can read in less than five minutes- books are all Splash Pages (Ed McGuinness books are especially bad for this) with minimal dialogue, and stuff that's all action. The pacing here is great, yet it's actually a long process to read JUST ONE ISSUE. Totally a lost art these days.

The original "Tales of the Teen Titans" issues are tremendous- it's a 4-part mini-series of Origins for the most-unknown members of the team (Raven, Changeling, Starfire & Cyborg), that does a GREAT deal of good in explaining their origins, who they are, and WHY they are the way they are. Cyborg's is more down-to-earth (until he gains powers, of course), especially in his dealings with his parents, whom he often accused of forcing him into science and trying to control his life- he only understands after they died how much they actually loved him. Though seeing his grey-skinned black friend (in the early '80s, there weren't too many shades to use on human skin- every black person typically had the same chocolate skin colour, most white people had the same pigment, asians were that sickly yellow colour, etc.- I guess they tried to shake things up to make Ron look different... and 1980s colour pallettes couldn't handle the job) is pretty funny, especially when he's all "blame the honkies!" about everything.

The Changeling one was pretty funny, especially because you can see what's actually happening on-panel while he's giving his enormously-bullshit explanation for how great he and his life were. They DO bother to explain his personality a bit too, especially by bringing up how EVERYONE HE KNEW IS DEAD. Starfire's is a really interesting sibling rivalry tale, as her sister Komand'r is one of the most straight-up brutally EVIL people I've ever read in comic books. Just... so unbelievably nasty, sinister, pointlessly-cruel and monstrous. Victimizing her sister just for being healthier and prettier than her (Komand'r looks HILARIOUS as a young child, by the way- those big evil eyebrows on a toddler are a hoot), Komand'r/Blackfire goes on to betray HER ENTIRE HOMEWORLD to their arch-enemies The Citadel, then arranges for a peace treaty that involves Starfire being sold into physical (and probably sexual) slavery. I mean, JESUS.

Raven's is a solid one, too, full of George Perez's favourite thing- large rocky outcroppings drawn in extreme detail. Alas, Raven has such a complicated origin that I think I've read it in three or four individual full comics by this point. Looking at how pretty and relatively fully-shaped she was back in these issues really puts a point on how gaunt she looked once she got fully-influenced by Dear Old Daddy Trigon later (Perez actually drew her a little more gaunt with each issue, until she was basically a walking skeleton with a giant Widow's Peak haircut. She actually looks REALLY pretty in the early Titans issues- more elegant and serene than the fresh-faced babyfaced Starfire or Wonder Girl).


This not only reminds me of how obvious it is that not only were the early '80s Titans CLEARLY the best, but it got me thinking about just WHY those years are the best. Aside from the great combo of interesting art and good writing, well-rounded characters, and great new villains, there was more to it.

Why the 1980s Teen Titans were an Ideal Team:
1) Perfect Roster Size

-Some teams over-did their rosters pretty badly (Johns' JSA got awful for this; the Legion of Super-Heroes is rather impenetrable due to it as well, with numerous characters being near-ciphers in terms of personality because of a lack of focus), while others are a bit too small at times. I think 6-7 is like some kind of perfect roster size- it allows for a hook-up or two between the cast, relationships with normal people for others, enough room for varied characterization, and it keeps fight scenes from getting too cluttered. Just think: The X-Men of the same era was around the same size (Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Banshee & Marvel Girl made 7, plus Charley for an 8th at the base. When the latter two left/died, in came Shadowcat), as were many Avengers squads. I rarely hear about stuff like this from comic book writers, but it's an observation I made a couples years ago.

2) Varied Characters
- In the team, you have 2 hot-heads (Cyborg, Starfire), 2 calm types (Dick, Donna.. and by the way, isn't it weird that the two most calm, sensible, nice, likeable characters on the entire roster were raised by an isolated society of warlike anti-male zealots and FRICKING BATMAN??), 1 joker (Changeling), and an enigmatic type in Raven. While Wally was a bit of a bore, he was a good contrast to the others, because Dick was so driven, Raven such a loner, etc. This means that the hot-heads can set off fights, the calmer ones can try to settle them down, someone can crack wise to keep things light, and Raven can generally be the mopey one. You get all sides of the human experience with one little crew.

3) Changeling
- He's rarely anyone's FAVOURITE character, and his jokes can get a little corny, but he's kind of a necessity here. I mean, Dick is all intense, and Raven & Cyborg are fueled entirely by self-hate, while Donna is too much of a Good Girl to act out, and Starfire gets by on being naiive about stuff- somebody needs to be here to keep things light. Plus there's somebody to act out the fans' drooling over the sexy ladies (I love when he catches Kori & Donna and LITERALLY turns into a wolf and starts howling), or as one fan wrote in: "It's nice to see a character actually represent how a teenage male actually acts." And of course the best part about Team Funny Guys: they're the Seriousness Barometer of the series- he can joke about whatever he wants, but when he FINALLY shuts up and starts acting serious, you know it's "Go Time". Hell, look at the Terra story, or all the other times he's been visited by tremendous personal tragedy? Dick, Raven & Vic were always gloomy, but when the CLOWN cries, it's a big deal.

4) Varied Origins
- Think about it: You've got characters derived from Outer Space, Otherdimensional Magic, Mythology, and Technology- in addition to Dick's Street-based origins with The Batman. This effectively allows for multiple stories, without too much weird explanation for them- Magic & Space Opera always seemed a bit "funny" in the X-Men (who all basically share an origin), but the Titans had easy access to Demon-Fighting, "Star Wars"-style galactic laser battles AND whatever high-technology stuff heroes tend to always fight! Very few super-teams manage quite all of that- the Justice League has most of it, but always faltered when it came to magical origins (Wonder Woman doesn't count, Dr. Fate rarely was on the team, and Zatanna was never a big enough or good enough character to justify the attention her fetishy costume got, and never seems like League Material).


THE TOP TEN TITANS:
1) Dick Grayson
2) Donna Troy- The Titans is basically these two characters to me- they're the level-headed pros who dominated three generations (Silver Age, Bronze Age & Early 2000s), and really represent the team best.
3) Starfire- The most passionate Titan drove a lot of the conflict of the stories, and she still comes across as a very special, unique "fish out of water" character.
4) Cyborg- Oddly, he never really got a lot of focus in the series as far as props went- Robin was smarter, Donna stronger, and Kori had most of his same powers PLUS more. But he's still one of the more well-rounded characters on the team.
5) Changeling- A comic relief who was ACTUALLY FUNNY (I still remember that scene when Cyborg falls on the ice and mutters that he's glad Gar isn't around to make fun of him. Then a green rabbit next to him starts thumping his foot on the ground while going "kinda WOBBLY, isn't he?"
---
6) Terra- A Titan for only a short while, and ALWAYS evil, but she was a great character who flamed out early (which is sometimes best- look at how crappy Elektra got since her resurrection).
7) Raven- I tired of her "poor me" emo act at times, but she drove a great deal of Titans stories, and led to a lot of conflicts.
8) Arsenal- A fun use of the old "Bad Boy" act.
9) Kid Flash- Often tragically-boring, enough that the FANS even complained, but he was a good comparison to his wild teammates.
10) Tempest- He actually got used pretty well on the 2000s Titans run.

TEN TERRIBLE TITANS:

These are the loser characters, forgettable nobodies, and hindrances to the team over the years. Some of them wouldn't be so BAD if they didn't actively make the Titans look worse as a squad just by having been on the roster- there are officially TWICE as many Bad Titans as Good Ones, and that is unacceptable. When the whole group gathers for an Event Story, you're like "Holy HELL most of these guys are absolute Cannon Fodder garbage!"

1) Danny Chase- Could there be any other choice? Annoying, insulting, rarely got his comeuppance, and the writer LOVED him.
2) Azrael- Barely a Titan, but his stories and dialogue are ridiculously awful and a chore to sit through.
3) Pantha- A Wolverine knock-off and generic "I'm angry and insult everyone!" type, forgetting all the GOOD points of Wolverine.
4) Baby Wildebeest- How do you characterize a BABY? Plus the problems of sending an infant into superhero situations.
5) The Atom II- Not an AWFUL character inherently, but Ray Palmer sticks out like a sore thumb with this squad.
---
6 & 7) Hawk & Dove- Just a boring pair of argumentative brothers. I never cared for them.
8) Mal Duncan- They gave him upgrade after UPGRADE, and nothing ever worked.
9) Fringe- Forgettable and weird.
10) Bushido- Literally just a name and a power concept.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Terra! Supergirls! Kyle Rayner! Mr. Twister!)

Post by Goldar »

The only thing I like Mal Duncan for is that he introduced Karen Beecher... and then she soon became...the Wasp, er, ah, I mean, the Bumblebee!
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Terra! Supergirls! Kyle Rayner! Mr. Twister!)

Post by M4C8 »

Ares wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:39 am I always feel bad for folks with healing factors and cybernetics in fiction. They're the only ones allowed to really get hurt to show what a danger the villain is.

In Justice League, Steppenwolf rips Cyborg in half, but only Cyborg.

In the Death of Superman animated movie, Cyborg gets an arm ripped off despite Hawkman and Aquaman also engaging Doomsday in melee.

In Deadpool 2, the only person the Juggernaut really injures is Deadpool. Which is lucky for Cable, because had DP not been there, you know Cable's cyber arm would have gotten ripped off.

In the new Season of Young Justice, Halo has the ability to regenerate and come back to life. So of course, when Lobo shows up, it's Halo that gets gutted, rather than Nightwing, Tigress or anyone else.

You could maybe make a case that these guys are less careful because they know they can regenerate or be repaired, but it's just so transparent how they're the ones that get hurt because the writer wants to show the stakes, but can't actually let anyone else get hurt.

This is one reason why I wish healers were more common in superhero fiction. It'd let other people get hurt and then the question becomes whether they'll be healed in time, rather than just the usual suspects getting an arm ripped off every time.

That or just turn it into some kind of game.

"Yes! Cyborg lost an arm this time. You owe my a beer."

"Damnit, I was sure the bad guy would go for the legs this time."
Wolverine has often deliberately jumped in front of attacks taking the hit to protect his less durable allies, he's also been shown taking hits that he could have dodged so he has an excuse to do some damage of his own.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Terra! Supergirls! Kyle Rayner! Mr. Twister!)

Post by Hoid »

Ares wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:25 am
Hoid wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 12:54 am A friend offline mentioned Warp gets his powers from his suit. Is that genuine, or just a mistake on my friend’s part? If it’s a suit, he could have repulsors or something worked into it.
His powers came from his suit in the cartoon, where Warp was a time traveler as well as a teleporter. In the comics I believe his teleportation power was innate, though whether his flight power was innate or part of his armor is unknown.
Ahhhh! My friend is a Marvel fanatic, so it’d make sense he’d only know about DC through more cinematic methods. Thanks!
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Deathstroke

Post by Jabroniville »

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DEATHSTROKE THE TERMINATOR (Slade Wilson)
Created By:
Marv Wolfman & George Perez
First Appearance: The Teen Titans #2 (Dec. 1980)
Role: Super-Soldier, Elite Mercenary, Bad-Ass Anti-Hero
PL 11 (254)
STRENGTH
5 STAMINA 6 AGILITY 8
FIGHTING 15 DEXTERITY 7
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 5 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 9 (+17)
Athletics 10 (+16)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+17)
Deception 10 (+13)
Expertise (Tactics) 8 (+12)
Expertise (Mercenary) 12 (+16)
Insight 8 (+13)
Intimidation 10 (+13)
Investigation 4 (+9)
Perception 11 (+16)
Persuasion 5 (+8)
Stealth 4 (+13)
Vehicles 1 (+8)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Agile Feint, All-Out Attack, Benefit 3 (Ambidexterity, Reputation as The Best, Wealth), Assessment, Beginner's Luck, Chokehold, Connected, Contacts, Defensive Attack, Elusive Target, Equipment 5, Evasion, Fast Grab, Fearless, Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Unarmed) 2, Improved Critical 2 (Staff), Improved Critical (Guns), Improved Critical (Sword), Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative 2, Instant Up, Jack-of-All-Trades, Languages 3 (Several), Power Attack, Precise Attack 2 (Ranged/Cover, Close/Concealment), Prone Fighting, Quick Draw, Ranged Attack 5, Seize Initiative, Takedown 2, Tracking, Uncanny Dodge, Well-Informed

Powers:
"Enhanced Physique"
Regeneration 4 (Feats: Diehard, Great Endurance) [6]
Leaping 1 (15 feet) [1]
Speed 2 (8 mph) [2]

"90% of Brain Used" Quickness 4 (Flaws: Limited- Mental Tasks Only) [2]

"Blaster Staff" (Flaws: Easily-Removable) [11]
Blast 8 (Feats: Split 2) (Diminished Range -1) (17) -- (18 points)
  • AE: "Staff Smash" Strength-Damage +2 (Feats: Reach 2) (4)
Equipment:
"Sword" Strength-Damage +2 (Feats: Improved Critical) (Extras: Penetrating 4) (7)
"Body Armour" Protection 1 (Extras: Impervious 5) (6)

Offense:
Unarmed +17 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Sword +15 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Blaster +12 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +16

Defenses:
Dodge +15 (DC 25), Parry +15 (DC 25), Toughness +6 (+7 Body Armour), Fortitude +8, Will +12

Complications:
Motivation (Greed)- Slade is a killer-for-hire.
Relationship (Grant & Joseph Wilson)- Slade loved both of his sons dearly, but feels responsible for their demises. Grant worshipped him, and died imitating his Terminator persona as "The Ravager". Joseph was rendered mute by one of Slade's mistakes, and he was later forced to kill him to save his soul (and the universe).
Relationship (Adeline Wilson)- Slade fell in love with his superior in the military, but grew distant from her. When she attempted to murder him over Joseph's mutilation, she cost him an eye.
Relationship (Terra)- Slade entered into a sexual relationship with a fifteen-year-old sociopath, hoping that her deceptive nature and powers would get her in good with the Teen Titans. It worked, but he horribly-miscalculated just how unhinged Tara Markov really was.
Relationship (Wintergreen)- Slade saved Wintergreen's life years ago, and has retained his services as a servant and partner ever since. He remains Slade's best and only friend (which made his murder at Slade's mind-controlled hands all the more tragic).

Total: Abilities: 106 / Skills: 104--52 / Advantages: 52 / Powers: 22 / Defenses: 22 (254)

Deathstroke The Terminator:
-Slade's got a long and storied history for a guy who started as a mastermind villain in a brand-new teen hero book in the late 1970s. Hell, he got the kind of start that would likely fail if tried today, where a "lesser" version of himself went up against the Titans first, only to die from his own stupidity, necessitating Slade taking the lesser one (his son Grant)'s place. But the way he did it, by getting a spy put onto the team (good ol' Terra), SLEEPING WITH HER (even though she was fifteen, sixteen, tops), then taking the Titans out in their homes when they least expected it, sealed the deal, making him a legendary villain. Of course, they did the standard "he's not so bad after all" thing, as without a mercenary contract out on the Titans, he had no reason to hate them, and actually had a bunch of relatively polite conversations with Changeling about Terra and their relationship and stuff like that.

-He even got a fairly long-running solo series in the '90s, which of course is almost completely forgotten today, as are most '90s solo runs of non-major characters (and villains). I think it's only remaining link to nowadays is Rose Wilson, aka Ravager II. But he got a MAJOR boost to the big leagues thanks to his run in the Secret Society's inner circle and a vendetta against Green Arrow (lousy Ollie, stealing the Titans' best villain... well, I guess he still menaces them too...).

-Ooh, funny story about his name, too. Sounds clumsy, don't it? And in the cartoon he's just "Slade". Well, he WAS just "The Terminator" for the most part early on (though in his debut he DOES use the name "Deathstroke" once), but then a little movie came out by the same name, which ended up being a whole hell of a lot more famous than a villain in a comic series. Suddenly, this "Deathstroke" name gets added onto it permanently. And then the Titans cartoon can't use THAT name either, because of the word "Death" in it, so he just goes by his real name, but only as "Slade". Bizarre stuff, the kind of thing that only happens in comic books and pro wrestling.

Slade's Debut:
-Slade Wilson debuted as a guy simply named "The Terminator", wearing "Captain America Boots" and generally looking really awesome (if inspired by George Perez's own Taskmaster). Cool, confident and extremely dangerous, he had a real air about him- not a braggart like most villains, he simply lectured people on their stupidity, and calmly considered everything he did. He was... different. In a genre full of maniacal masterminds, he was cultured and reserved. When his son Grant is killed fighting the Titans, Slade is honor-bound to take on the contract, and nearly kills the entire team- only his own ex-wife and son turning on him can save him.

-His backstory is carefully explained by Adeline Wilson in a full issue (a MASTERFUL bit of work by the creative team): He was a prodigy of a soldier, got the best training imaginable (impressing, then marrying, his trainer- Adeline herself). Government experiments made him a borderline-superhuman, but his army career soon turned to quasi-legal mercenary work. Adeline bore him two children, one of which (Joseph) was nearly killed by an old enemy of her husband's. When his arrogance got Joey maimed for life, she turned on Slade, shooting out one of his eyes and nearly killing him. He went rogue after that, which is how we ended up in modern times. He's depicted as a cultured bad-ass, but one in the twilight of his career- it's explicitly stated that he's lost several steps since his prime (something that, like with Wolverine in the same era, would be ignored later). Slade made a few attempts at killing the Titans, worked with Terra and was nearly killed by her, and then made a measure of peace with the team.

Post-Judas Contract:
-Deathstroke, despite becoming successful as a character, was taken out of the book for a while after that, as Wolfman had more or less made him less adversarial as a character. He soon changed his name to the mouthful "Deahstroke The Terminator" after the Terminator franchise hit huge. Wolfman falling apart as a writer around this time didn't help, as Slade's next-biggest thing was being forced to mercy-kill his last remaining son when Jericho was possessed by the spirits of Azarath's dead. By this point, Slade was more of a sometimes-ally of the Titans. He would even earn his own book in the 1990s, also written by Wolfman, which didn't really set the world on fire, but introduced his Long-Lost Daughter, Rose Wilson, who would later become much more important (she spent a decade as a forgotten backgrounder).

-Because COMICS R DRAMA, Adeline was driven insane by a blood transfusion, then killed in the Devin Grayson Titans book- an act of mercy by Starfire that made Slade cut all associations with his now sometime-allies. Slade more or less left comics for a few years until Geoff Johns took over the new Teen Titans book, immediately turning Deathstroke into a mega-villain, with his daughter Rose now completely nuts and being his pawn. Then Jericho returned, having controlled his father into murdering his longtime friend and butler, Wintergreen.

Deathstroke the Mega-Villain:
-Around this time, Johns & DC sort of realized the potential mega-villain they had on their hands (something DC is SORELY lacking compared to Marvel), and so Deathstroke started shifting into less of a TITANS foe, and more of a general DCU menace. In Identity Crisis, he was given this bad-ass moment where he hands a series of high-tier heroes their asses (the fight is a bit clumsily-written and makes the heroes into a bunch of dunces who just stand around and job one at a time, like the ninjas in a Martial Arts flick, but still) until Green Arrow manages to piss him off and get him to lose focus, and in Infinite Crisis, he was a huge part of the villain group that tried to take over the world. This was a MAJOR push for the guy, so much so that DC started putting him in other books (as the Titans book had faltered once more), to the point where he became a Green Arrow baddie for a while. Unfortunately, because it's DC, this push never really amounted to that much- while he was the big villain in the Teen Titans cartoon, he would meander around, killing the Minority Replacement Hero Ryan "Atom" Choi and doing some stuff in the Bat-Books as well. He'd mix up with the Titans a few other times, having a final break with Jericho, who was disgusted with Slade's actions- endangering people by trying to save Jericho's life with some contraption. I dunno, dumb stuff.

-The New 52 pushed Deathstroke in a solo book- one drawn by Rob Liefeld of all people, with a bizarre issue that's mostly a re-telling of the "Deathstroke Origin Issue", complete with identical panel-layout in parts... but with ROB LIEFELD replacing GEORGE PEREZ. It's a hilarious, mismatched mess for the ages, as you'd expect, and a fascinating example of how people with such varied talent levels can handle the same composition. Rob's is full of lazy shortcuts, poorly-drawn faces and other garbage, while the other is GEORGE PEREZ. It's truly wondrous to compare the two.

Deathstroke- Kind of a Big Villain, I Guess?:
-Ultimately, Slade isn't really the Mega-Villain DC wants him to be, but is big enough, and sympathetic enough as a character (given that his family life is all tragedy and he has a measure of honor, despite being an evil villain), that he can pull off various solo books. Like most modern villains, he's kind of fallen into disrepair over the years, but he's a big enough deal from various Supporting Materials that he can simply be re-heated whenever DC wants to push him again. Some characters are like that- all the garbage they've been into for thirty years is easily washed away by the remembrance of something like his early Teen Titans appearances, where he just seemed SO smart and SO bad-ass. Basically, for all the crap he's been involved with, the character is teflon- he's always gonna be popular.

Deathstroke's Stats:
-And yeah, Deathstroke's a savage monster in combat. +17 to Attack and +15 to Defense (though it's the chemical enhancements that do it) make him a nasty bugger, even though he "only" does +5 damage normally. But his Combat Advantages are so extensive he can modify all his caps at will, he's got Improved Critical on all his major attacks, he can Quick Draw anything, fight from a prone position, he's as good at range as he is in close, he's got mental Quickness ("90%" of his brain is used, based off of that Old Wive's Tale of most people only using 10%), AND he's a major Skillmonkey to boot!

-Note that his Regeneration isn't as good as it would get in his solo series yet (where it's basically Immortality), and that even though he's only got one eye, it doesn't affect any of his stats adversely enough to count as a Complication. And also, he gets MUCH better later on- it's quite clear in the early Titans stories that Slade has slowed down with age, even lowering his guard to allow observation (Adeline mentions this when she's able to spy on him, and again when he fails to capture Dick Grayson and is actually forced to chase him IN BROAD DAYLIGHT while in full costume!). He got a bigger power-boost later, gaining a ton of ability, and his Power Level shoots all the way up to PL 12-13 easily (largely due to Strength 6 and higher Defenses, plus a bit more accuracy).
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:06 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Terra! Supergirls! Kyle Rayner! Mr. Twister!)

Post by Woodclaw »

When a friend of mine asked me how dangerous Deathstroke is I summed up as: "Put Batman's brain in Captain America's body, wrap it up in a Black Panther style vibranium armor and arm him with enough guns to make the Punisher go pale."
I swear he almost fainted.
Last edited by Woodclaw on Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Deathstroke

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:12 pmIn Identity Crisis, he was given this bad-ass moment where he hands a series of high-tier heroes their asses (the fight is a bit clumsily-written and makes the heroes into a bunch of dunces who just stand around and job one at a time, like the ninjas in a Martial Arts flick, but still) until Green Arrow manages to piss him off and get him to lose focus
Ahh, the moment he went from being a cool character to being Deathstroke the Villain Sue. "Clumsily-written" is overly generous. That fight is pure fan-wank.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Terra! Supergirls! Kyle Rayner! Mr. Twister!)

Post by Ares »

Yeah, Deathstroke was ironically better BEFORE the Identity Crisis push. Before, Slade was an extraordinary physical combatant and brilliant tactical mind, but he needed to rely on the former to really hang with superheroes, let alone groups of heroes. Taking on the Titans all at once required him to fight smart and be constantly on the move, and he ultimately LOST. The whole reason he went with the Spy In Their Midst plan was because he knew he couldn't just beat the Titans by himself.

His solo series had him go up against several superheroes one-on-one. He actually got a solid, no excuses given victory over Batman in one-on-one combat . . . but the victory was so costly that Deathstroke could barely stand after, and was easily captured by normal cops or security forces after (I forget which). It established Slade as someone who could beat Batman, but doing so was not only guaranteed, even victory left him so weak he may as well have lost.

Then later he took on the Flash, Aquaman and Green Lantern while trying to escape. Green Lantern made it clear he could easily capture Slade by just wrapping him up in a ring construct. Unfortunately, Slade goaded Hal into getting close, and got Hal so angry that Deathstroke was able to slip his hand free and activate his telescoping staff. It clipped Hal with a sucker punch and then Deathstroke was able to land a harder hit, causing the construct to vanish completely and let Slade escape.

Aquaman went after Slade in an abandoned building, one with no lights. Realizing that Aquaman has enhanced senses, Slade hit him with a flashbang grenade to blind and deafen him, and then launched a flying jump kick at Aquamand. Slade BOUNCED off of Arthur's chest, and commented to himself that he didn't realize how freakishly strong Aquaman was, as well as fast. Even without his sight and hearing, he managed to clip Slade and force him back. This 90s era comic actually remembered that Arthur is actually very powerful and fast, so Slade opted to just collapse the building on Arthur before the latter regained his senses.

Then the Flash comes in. This is Wally who remembers Slade, and takes no chances. He just speedblitzes Slade, punching him hundreds of times in a few minutes, completely overwhelming him. Slade realizes he's going to lose, so he fakes uncosciousness when he sees the cops approaching. Distracted by the cops, Flash is open to Slade sucker punching him, and Slade escapes. Still groggy from the hit, Wally chases after Slade, the latter who is just fast enough to take advantage of Wally's condition and trip him, knocking him out and making good his escape.

This issue was much more satisfying than the Identity Crisis fight, because it made the heroes competent and dangerous, forcing Slade to be clever in addition to skilled and well armed in order to escape. He never really just utterly owned any one hero.

Also, my favorite Batman versus Deathstroke battle also sums up how I feel a fight between them would go. Slade has an clear physical advantage over Bruce, such that anytime Bruce tries to directly compete, Slade wins. Slade is able to outrun Bruce's batarang toss, knock Bruce out of the air, etc. Then there's a moment where you see Bruce focus, at which point Slade pulls out the sword, and to me it's clear Bruce is fighting smarter, using his skill edge to compensate for Slade's physical edge, making it an even fight. Sort of how I'd see a fight between Bruce and Steve Rogers go.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Terra! Supergirls! Kyle Rayner! Mr. Twister!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Ares wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:35 pm Also, my favorite Batman versus Deathstroke battle also sums up how I feel a fight between them would go. Slade has an clear physical advantage over Bruce, such that anytime Bruce tries to directly compete, Slade wins. Slade is able to outrun Bruce's batarang toss, knock Bruce out of the air, etc. Then there's a moment where you see Bruce focus, at which point Slade pulls out the sword, and to me it's clear Bruce is fighting smarter, using his skill edge to compensate for Slade's physical edge, making it an even fight. Sort of how I'd see a fight between Bruce and Steve Rogers go.
Possibly one of the greatest moment in a great story.

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Also it was really fun that Batman put time on the plate, since the original confrontation during DC vs Marvel implied that when we saw them, they had already fought for 3 straigth days.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Terra! Supergirls! Kyle Rayner! Mr. Twister!)

Post by Bladewind »

Deathstroke is one of my favourite DC baddies.

I recall a scene where he dresses as Batman and has his daughter dress as Batgirl and manages to fool theheroes.
I remember thinking that that takes a steel pair.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Terra! Supergirls! Kyle Rayner! Mr. Twister!)

Post by BriarThrone »

Woodclaw wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:03 pm
Ares wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:35 pm Also, my favorite Batman versus Deathstroke battle also sums up how I feel a fight between them would go. Slade has an clear physical advantage over Bruce, such that anytime Bruce tries to directly compete, Slade wins. Slade is able to outrun Bruce's batarang toss, knock Bruce out of the air, etc. Then there's a moment where you see Bruce focus, at which point Slade pulls out the sword, and to me it's clear Bruce is fighting smarter, using his skill edge to compensate for Slade's physical edge, making it an even fight. Sort of how I'd see a fight between Bruce and Steve Rogers go.
Possibly one of the greatest moment in a great story.

Image

Also it was really fun that Batman put time on the plate, since the original confrontation during DC vs Marvel implied that when we saw them, they had already fought for 3 straigth days.
I can't help but feel that Steve has an advantage in a prolonged battle. "Days" is FAR in excess of how long it would take for a fight to become ENTIRELY about stamina, and Steve's enhanced physiology should put him substantially ahead there.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Terra! Supergirls! Kyle Rayner! Mr. Twister!)

Post by Ares »

BriarThrone wrote: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:38 am
Woodclaw wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:03 pm
Ares wrote: Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:35 pm Also, my favorite Batman versus Deathstroke battle also sums up how I feel a fight between them would go. Slade has an clear physical advantage over Bruce, such that anytime Bruce tries to directly compete, Slade wins. Slade is able to outrun Bruce's batarang toss, knock Bruce out of the air, etc. Then there's a moment where you see Bruce focus, at which point Slade pulls out the sword, and to me it's clear Bruce is fighting smarter, using his skill edge to compensate for Slade's physical edge, making it an even fight. Sort of how I'd see a fight between Bruce and Steve Rogers go.
Possibly one of the greatest moment in a great story.

Image

Also it was really fun that Batman put time on the plate, since the original confrontation during DC vs Marvel implied that when we saw them, they had already fought for 3 straigth days.
I can't help but feel that Steve has an advantage in a prolonged battle. "Days" is FAR in excess of how long it would take for a fight to become ENTIRELY about stamina, and Steve's enhanced physiology should put him substantially ahead there.
Yeah, after a certain point, the longer the battle goes, the more of an advantage Steve has. The Super Soldier Serum just does too good a job of negating fatigue poisons and the like, so that he'll almost always be less tired than Bruce after enough time has passed.

I think Steve has some degree of a raw physical edge on Bruce strength/stamina wise, and comparable speed/agility. Both are comparable in terms of combat proficiency (accuracy in landing and evading attacks), while Bruce has some martial arts technique knowledge Steve doesn't. A standard "dojo" style fights starts off fairly even, but gradually gives Steve the advantage the longer it goes.

A stand up fight is Steve's fight to lose, but Bruce is at his best when he gets the other guy to fight on Bruce's terms, not their own. Or as an episode of Batman: The Brave and the Bold put it: "When outmatched, cheat."
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