Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
User avatar
Woodclaw
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:05 pm
Location: Como, Italy

Re: Jab’s Builds (Mega Man 11! Triumph! The Ray! The Punisher!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Ares wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:26 am I've said this before when it comes to Codes Against Killing, but they're something I feel is pretty vital to the superhero genre as a whole.

I definitely understand it from a marketing and storytelling perspective, because if Dr. Doom died in the first story, well, we'd have missed out on some great stories. There's a reason why Darth Vader survived 3 movies and why the Joker has been around for around 80 years. Rather than having to create a new villain each time, really good villains have multiple story potential.

But beyond that, Codes Against Killing make sense for superheroes, so long as it's a more reasonable "I will not kill unless doing so is the only way to save myself or someone else" and not the more silly "I will never kill ever". With Police Officers, it's true that once they draw their guns, they're expected to be prepared to shot, and to shoot to kill. They're trained to aim for the center body mass and put in enough bullets to make the threat not a threat. And then they're going to have to turn in their weapon, submit themselves to a psyche exam, a full investigation and other procedures to make sure the killing is justified.
I think this ties in with one of the biggest problems with most superhero comics: being open-ended.
On one hand it makes perfect sense from a narrator perspective not to reinvent the wheel every time by creating a new "main villain" every time, so it stand to reason that the main character doesn't kill. On the other hand, though, this kind of narrative also imply that every other character abide to the same code as the main hero, which is a bit of a problem.
Ares wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:26 amBecause police are just normal men and women trying to protect civilians against opponents who are frequently as well armed as themselves. Because hitting someone with a firearm is actually really hard, with supposedly something like 3/4ths of all shots fired in combat missing. Because we don't have reliable non-lethal weapons, so we need to make do with the ones we have.
This here frames the problem pretty well: the main goal of a police officier should be protecting civilians, so the problem is how do you face a supercriminal? Against normal opponents shooting to intimidate might be a viable tactic, but against someone like the Green Goblin or the Joker? I can buy that Batman will never kill the Joker and I can't even imagine what took Jim Gordon not to murder him in cold blood at the end of No Man's Land, but I don't buy even for a minute that every policeman in Gotham would be that merciful.
Ares wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:26 amIf we had an entire police force of people who could fight like Batman or Captain America, move like Nightwing or Daredevil, had access to a variety of effective lethal and non-lethal weapons and could aim with the accuracy of people like Green Arrow or Hawkeye, then police could be expected to use non-lethal force to deal with criminals. Because they guys have the means to take down opponents without killing them. Their lives are not in danger the same way normal police officers are, and in the cases when they are, they have every right to use lethal force. From a moral perspective, a code against killing like this one makes perfect sense.

It makes even more sense in a superhero setting where superheroes are allowed so long as they make every effort to work with law enforcement and not be reckless with lethal force. It's easy to see why someone like Batman would be tolerated and why the Punisher would not. Even the old Pulp novels with heroes like the Spider made it clear that even though he was killing evil men, criminals beyond the shadow of a doubt, the law could not differentiate between what the Spider did and what any other killer did, and thus the Spider was hunted to the full extent of the law. Meanwhile Doc Savage never killed anyone if he could help it, and was given several honorary standings with various police agencies over the world.
Putting aside the consideration on why techlogies like Clint and Ollie's trick arrows or Spidey's webshooters aren't avaible to law enforcement agencies
Ares wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:26 amI do like characters like the Punisher, but they should generally be in the minority to show why those codes exist, and to indulge the people who like to see some criminals go down permanently.

Jab isn't wrong about Punisher stories involving other superheroes usually turning one of the party into a strawman. Either the hero is made to look weak or stupid (ie, anytime any other hero appeared in an Ennis book) or the Punisher is portrayed as an unsympathetic lunatic. It's a careful balancing act where the Punisher should be sympathetic, but the heroes should also clearly not be able to condone his actions.

It's why I vastly prefer the rooftop Punisher/Daredevil scene in the Netflix TV series to the Ennis Punisher scene it was based off of. Because when Ennis wrote it, Matt looks like a weakling and Frank gets to make all of the good points and look like a badass. In the Netflix show, both men make equally good points, Matt stands firm in his convictions and makes a decision that is far more in character.
I remember a pretty good storyline by David Micheline and Erik Larsen where Spidey and Frank discovered that a splinter group from the C.I.A. and the U.S.Army were stockpiling refined cocaine to finance a series of secret operations. There were a few good exchanges, but the ones I remember most was this one.

Image
Image
Image
Ares wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:26 amI'm honestly kind of surprised they didn't just use the Punisher rather than create the Scourge of the Underworld. I mean, the Punisher is the perfect guy to clean up any jobbers that they want to get rid of, and the conflict between him and Captain America is just perfect. Two people who likely respect each other as soldiers, but Cap feeling that Frank has taken his war to levels he can't condone.
I think that the problem was simply that it would have required some really tough planning, possibly intervowing the two series for a rather extended period of time, not to mention the pretty real possibility of having Frank shot Cap, which I think was a big "No Go".
Ares wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:26 amUltimately, I find the best Frank Castle stories do portray him as a tragic figure, rather than one who simply enjoys what he does. He's a broken man with this hole in his soul where his family are suppose to be, and no matter how many criminals he kills, that hole never goes away. He's ultimately a showcase of the futility of revenge, perhaps even realizing it on some level, and deciding to use his own damaged life to do some good.
It's interesting though how in some ways Frank's response is absolutely rational. What happened to the Punisher is the same thing that happened to Bruce Wayne, but whereas Bruce responded emotionally using fear as a weapon, Frank Castle did exactly what he was trained to do: he went to war.
Castle can be summed up with the famous quote from Colonel Trautman in First Blood: "[...] you're dealing with an expert in guerrilla warfare, with a man who's the best! With guns, with knives, with his bare hands! A man who's been trained to ignore pain! To ignore weather! To live off the land! To eat things that would make a billy goat puke! In Vietnam his job was to dispose of enemy personnel... to kill, period! Win by attrition... well he was THE BEST!"
The Punisher is trying to fill the hole in his soul in a cold and clinical way. He doesn't take pleasure in what he does, for him it's a job.
"You're right. Sorry. Holy shit," I breathed, "heckhounds.”

WareHouse W (main build thread for M&M)
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Jab’s Builds (Mega Man 11! Triumph! The Ray! The Punisher!)

Post by Ares »

Woodclaw wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:18 pm I think this ties in with one of the biggest problems with most superhero comics: being open-ended.
On one hand it makes perfect sense from a narrator perspective not to reinvent the wheel every time by creating a new "main villain" every time, so it stand to reason that the main character doesn't kill. On the other hand, though, this kind of narrative also imply that every other character abide to the same code as the main hero, which is a bit of a problem.

-

This here frames the problem pretty well: the main goal of a police officier should be protecting civilians, so the problem is how do you face a supercriminal? Against normal opponents shooting to intimidate might be a viable tactic, but against someone like the Green Goblin or the Joker? I can buy that Batman will never kill the Joker and I can't even imagine what took Jim Gordon not to murder him in cold blood at the end of No Man's Land, but I don't buy even for a minute that every policeman in Gotham would be that merciful.
Oh absolutely. It's one reason I honestly would want to give someone like the Joker a healing factor, because you know at least once, a Gotham City cop would walk up to the cell where the Joker is and just unload every bullet he has on him, because he'd rather go to jail for murder than let the clown walk the streets, especially when any decent lawyer could probably bring it down to manslaughter or something else.

I'd honestly want to tell a story of why cops DON'T do this, partially because most of them are decent folks, but because the one guy that did try this took his shot at the Joker, who wasn't quite as dead as everyone thought. And when the Joker came back, the things he did to said cop and his loved ones was so nightmarish that no one would dare try it again. Use the opportunity to explain a superhero convention with some world building.

Though to be fair, I also prefer it when superheroes stop criminals, even the mass murderers, from getting a high body count and prefer that criminals like the Joker are used sparingly, because it does wind up making the criminal justice system look insane for keeping these guys alive. The Joker killing a few small time hoods and mostly being caught for attempted murder, I can buy a psyche ward. The Joker having a triple-digit body count at minimum? He would have been executed three times over.

So cops are perfectly justifiable in using lethal force against guys like the Green Goblin and Joker, it's just that above-average humans with guns aren't very effective against supervillains, otherwise we wouldn't need superheroes.
Putting aside the consideration on why techlogies like Clint and Ollie's trick arrows or Spidey's webshooters aren't avaible to law enforcement agencies
Yeah, that's mostly a verisimilitude problem. If cops are suddenly going around with the Web Rifles and the like, the comics universe loses one important grounding. The idea of them having an Anti-Supervillain SWAT Team unit is one thing, but every cop having a gun that shot something like Spider-Man's webbing would be weird for a lot of people.

This can be handwaved in a few ways. For Spidey, it's one reason why my headcanon is to combine his organic webbing with his web shooters. Peter produces the webbing himself, but it's only got a range of a few feet naturally, and can't really be aimed that well. It's more useful to simply tether to a surface and lower him down. The webshooters are then what gives his webs their excellent range and accuracy, as well as the ability to quickly weave them into something useful. It keeps one of his more "spider-y" powers organic while also showing his scientific genius.

So web-shooters for cops wouldn't really work because they don't grow their own webs.

With Hawkeye and Green Arrow, it can just be explained that those specialized heads are expensive, and to wield them the way Clint and Ollie do requires equivalent skill.
I think that the problem was simply that it would have required some really tough planning, possibly intervowing the two series for a rather extended period of time, not to mention the pretty real possibility of having Frank shot Cap, which I think was a big "No Go".
To be fair, there was a part in the Scourge story where Scourge had a shot at Cap and couldn't take it because . . . well, it was Captain America. I can understand it requiring some coordination between books, but still, Frank eventually started pulling Scourge-style tactics anyway, and he would have been a good fit for the story. Frank disguising himself as a bartender and gunning down a room full of unsuspecting supervillains? Right up his alley.
It's interesting though how in some ways Frank's response is absolutely rational. What happened to the Punisher is the same thing that happened to Bruce Wayne, but whereas Bruce responded emotionally using fear as a weapon, Frank Castle did exactly what he was trained to do: he went to war.
Castle can be summed up with the famous quote from Colonel Trautman in First Blood: "[...] you're dealing with an expert in guerrilla warfare, with a man who's the best! With guns, with knives, with his bare hands! A man who's been trained to ignore pain! To ignore weather! To live off the land! To eat things that would make a billy goat puke! In Vietnam his job was to dispose of enemy personnel... to kill, period! Win by attrition... well he was THE BEST!"
The Punisher is trying to fill the hole in his soul in a cold and clinical way. He doesn't take pleasure in what he does, for him it's a job.
Agreed.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
User avatar
Jack of Spades
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:20 pm
Location: Top of the deck
Contact:

Re: Jab’s Builds (Mega Man 11! Triumph! The Ray! The Punisher!)

Post by Jack of Spades »

Once a hero kills -- however rarely -- the bodies start to rack up. Comics go a long time, and the tenth writer, twenty years down the line, will have grown up idolizing that time Spidey beat Norman Osborn to death with a crowbar. And there goes Spidey. I think a bright line is necessary; if killing is the last resort, then the heroes must never reach the last resort, or they'll check in and stay there.

And Ares, your point about the Punisher and Scourge is so perfect and so obvious only a Marvel editor could miss it.
Jack's Deck build threadFantasy Geographic Society campaign web site
User avatar
HalloweenJack
Posts: 1270
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:50 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (Mega Man 11! Triumph! The Ray! The Punisher!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

depends on the hero for me. Simple as that.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Master of Vengeance

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

THE MASTER OF VENGEANCE (Dwight Faron)
Created By:
Steve Grant & Bob McLeod
First Appearance: Spider-Man #32 (March 1993)
Status: Insane But Alive
Role: One-Off Foe
PL 7 (115)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 5 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Athletics 4 (+6)
Deception 3 (+6)
Expertise (Science) 5 (+10)
Intimidation 6 (+6)
Perception 4 (+4)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Chokehold, Fast Grab, Improved Hold, Ranged Attack 1

Powers:
Power-Lifting 2 (25 tons) [2]
"Manic Might" Immunity 2 (Pain Effects) [2]

"Electrical Costume" (Flaws: Removable) [16]
"Static Field" Movement 2 (Wall-Crawling, Sure Footed) (4)
Electrical Blast 8 (16)
-- (20 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +7 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Electrical Blast +6 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +7 (DC 17), Toughness +8, Fortitude +8, Will +3

Complications:
Enemy (The Punisher)
Enemy (Spider-Man, Vicary, Barnett)- Vicary was Faron's pal and a drug addict, convincing Faron to try crime. Barnett was their criminal contact (and later murdered by the Punisher). Spidey had Faron arrested.
Disabled (Psychotic)- Faron appears to be manic-depressive, or just flat-out insane. He often loses his cool if the fight turns against him, and panics.
Power Loss (Powers- Serum)- Faron must regularly drink from a serum to maintain his powers.

Total: Abilities: 70 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 20 / Defenses: 9 (115)

-This hilariously-named doofus actually has a bit of a sympathetic backstory, as Dennis Faron was a chemist down on his luck, and wanted to make some money, so his friend convinced him to make designer drugs. However, Spider-Man got involved, and easily arrested Faron, while the other criminals got away scot free. Faron would get released five years later, now consumed by vengeance after his life was ruined and his wife left him. He kidnapped his old friend and forced him to work- they created a duplicate Spider-Man costume, and Faron began beating criminals to death, luring the real Spidey in. Faron now revealed himself as THE MASTER OF VENGEANCE, but escaped when the Punisher got involved and he & Spidey basically tripped each other up. Spidey also had Frank spare the MoV a few other times, refusing to let the villain die.

-This lameoid returned in The Spectacular Spider-Man, breaking out of a mental institution and going on a rampage, everything reminding him of the family he lost. This time, Spider-Man was able to solo the villain, tearing off his gloves and blasting MoV with him. He later turned up during the Clone Saga, mistaking the Steel Spider for another clone and attacking him- the Spider won after his crippled girlfriend hit the MoV with her chair, dropping him with a net while he was off-balance. The Master of Vengeance never reappeared after this.

-The Master of Vengeance is HILARIOUSLY-capable of someone so ridiculous, as he's able to regularly brawl with Spider-Man... because he drank some chemicals that made him super-strong? WTF? How is that SO EASY to create? Would not every criminal in the world pay out the nose for something so great? Like, he even appears to be regularly strong later on, like it was a permanent change.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
myway24454
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:53 pm

Re: Master of Vengeance

Post by myway24454 »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 pm
-The Master of Vengeance is HILARIOUSLY-capable of someone so ridiculous, as he's able to regularly brawl with Spider-Man... because he drank some chemicals that made him super-strong? WTF? How is that SO EASY to create? Would not every criminal in the world pay out the nose for something so great? Like, he even appears to be regularly strong later on, like it was a permanent change.
Oh please. Super-Soldier Serums really are not rare despite what anyone in-universe will tell you. The same goes for whatever "brilliant" technology that's been cooked up as the the MacGuffin of the Week.
Last edited by myway24454 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Master of Vengeance

Post by Jabroniville »

myway24454 wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:53 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 pm
-The Master of Vengeance is HILARIOUSLY-capable of someone so ridiculous, as he's able to regularly brawl with Spider-Man... because he drank some chemicals that made him super-strong? WTF? How is that SO EASY to create? Would not every criminal in the world pay out the nose for something so great? Like, he even appears to be regularly strong later on, like it was a permanent change.
Oh please. Super-Soldier Serums really are not rare despite what any in-universe will tell you. The same goes for whatever "brilliant" technology that's been cooked up as the the MacGuffin of the Week.
Thing is, I hate that such things are apparently so easy to casually make. In the ‘80s, only the Power Broker process, which was incredibly dangerous, would usually do it. Nobody should ever be able to so casually boost their strength permanently. It’s as bad as the “casually invent a PL 10-12-worthy technology” thing.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

The Yuppunisher

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

THE YUPPUNISHER (Dean Swaybrick)
Created By:
Steven Grant & Hugh Haynes
First Appearance: Punisher #86 (Jan. 1994)
Status: Shot in the Head by Jimmy "Hit Man" Pierce
Role: Copycat Vigilante, Yuppie
PL 5 (51)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 1
FIGHTING 4 DEXTERITY 3
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Athletics 2 (+4)
Deception 4 (+4)
Expertise (Criminal/Military) 4 (+4)
Insight 2 (+2)
Intimidation 2 (+2)
Investigation 4 (+4)
Perception 2 (+2)
Stealth 3 (+4)
Vehicles 1 (+4)

Advantages:
Benefit 2 (Wealth), Equipment 5 (Arsenal), Ranged Attack 2

Equipment:
"Guns" Blast 4 (8)
"Knife" Strength-Damage +1 (Feats: Improved Critical) (2)
"Automatic Weapons" Blast 6 (Extras: Multiattack) (Inaccurate -1) (11)
"Grenades" Blast 6 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (Diminished Range -1) (17)

Offense:
Unarmed +4 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Knife +4 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Guns +5 (+4 Ranged Damage, DC 19)
Automatic Weapons +3 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +1

Defenses:
Dodge +4 (DC 14), Parry +4 (DC 14), Toughness +2 (+4 Kevlar), Fortitude +3, Will +2

Complications:
Enemy (The Punisher)

Total: Abilities: 24 / Skills: 24--12 / Advantages: 9 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 6 (51)

-This actually happened a LOT to Frank over the years- some douchebag would slap on his costume and go on a copycat rampage, doing all sorts of stuff. A few of the guys actually became more important characters, such as Jimmy "Hitman" Pierce, who turned on his crime family out of disgust; Nigil "Outlaw" Higgins, who tried to replace a "dead" Frank Castle until the vigilante returned; and Carlos Cruz, who was a more serious villain. Others are one-off goofs like THIS.

-A wealthy New York socialite, Swaybrick had never done a hard day's work in his life, having been born into money. When Frank Castle was thought-dead, Swaybrick had a replica costume made and wrote a book detailing Frank as a hero. A true nutjob, he went on TV wearing the costume, then planned an assault on a crackhouse, only to see the Jimmy Pierce "False Punisher" take the job. Annoyed, he decided to kill Pierce, even though he thought it was ACTUALLY THE REAL PUNISHER. He and his goon squad would execute a few more criminals and he'd hold Piere at gunpoint, but the crook managed to move out of the way and shoot Swaybrick in the head, killing him. A false Punisher, Dean was nicknamed "The Yuppunisher" for his "Yuppie" status (back in the late '80s & early '90s, it was very common for wussy Young Urban Professionals to be called "Yuppies" derogatorily).

-The same story arc featured Punisher War Journal's Chuck Dixon writing an "Idiot Punisher", but this was basically a civilian in a makeshift costume- nicknamed the "Idiot Punisher", Desmond Kline confronted some armed goons, but slipped off a building and got shot to death in his only appearance.

-The Yuppunisher is basically a big dude who's KIND OF in shape, but nowhere near ready to be taking on even a PL 8 Gun Guy like Jimmy Pierce.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
greycrusader
Posts: 1179
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:25 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Jab’s Builds (Mega Man 11! Triumph! The Ray! The Punisher!)

Post by greycrusader »

A few quick notes on your most recent posts, Jab:

Triumph: As I may have stated once before, Dwayne McDuffie's biggest error was thinking "smarter than DC editors and sort of smug about it" was the same as "smarter than DC's best-known heroes, and REALLY smug about it"; Triumph was written as arrogant and self-pitying, without anything to justify it. That being said, SOMETHING likely could have been done with the character, if Morrison hadn't accidentally killed him off. And then, yes, Marvel basically did the SAME EXACT CHARACTER with the Sentry-except the editors/writers made him incredibly important to all of Marvel's heroic history, AND had their best known heroes constantly praise and fawn over him. And they still won't let him go!

Tomorrow Woman: Pretty neat little heroine, actually. I'm tempted to say the original should be left to RIP, but a psychic android/A.I is pretty rare in the genre. Oddly, a closely analogous character was introduced later in a later JLA run, the Batman-sponsored hero Faith, who even looked a bit like Tomorrow Woman, but is almost entirely forgotten about, as her stories made NO impact with readers.

The Ray I and II: Another example of how a cool visual design goes a LONG way in comics-and the Golden Age Ray series was illustrated by Lou Fine, one of the true talents of the era (he also did Black Condor). Memorable art can put a character "over" more effectively than all but the best writing.

The Punisher and his Rogues: The Nam was never in the MU proper, so I'd simply place Frank Castle's appearance either in the MAX setting or an alternate continuity entirely. And as regards his villains-yeah, mostly utterly forgettable, EXCEPT for the MAX bad guys-Barracuda, The Russian, Ma Gnucci, the Elite, and a few others, most of whom STILL didn't make it past a handful of appearances before getting offed by the Punisher (either directly or because of situations engineered by him). And yeah, Ennis is a gifted writer who makes the mistake of self-indulgence, by making any character he doesn't personally like/understand into an idiot/punching bag for his protagonists.

All my best
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Payback

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

PAYBACK (Eddie Dyson)
Created By:
Chuck Dixon & Tony Fox
First Appearance: Punisher War Journal #48 (Nov. 1992)
Status: Holy Shit- Still Alive
Role: Vengeance-Seeker (on Frank), Butt-Monkey
PL 7 (84)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Athletics 4 (+6)
Deception 3 (+6)
Expertise (Police Officer) 6 (+8)
Intimidation 1 (+3)
Investigation 3 (+5)
Perception 2 (+4)
Vehicles 1 (+6)

Advantages:
Equipment 5 (Arsenal, Kevlar), Ranged Attack 5

Equipment:
"Guns" Blast 4 (8)
"Knife" Strength-Damage +1 (Feats: Improved Critical) (2)
"Automatic Weapons" Blast 6 (Extras: Multiattack) (Inaccurate -1) (11)
"Kevlar" Protection 2 & Immunity 5 (Ballistics) (7)

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Guns +10 (+4 Ranged Damage, DC 19)
Automatic Weapons +8 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +2 (+4 Kevlar), Fortitude +5, Will +4

Complications:
Enemy (The Punisher)- Eddie's family was killed after Eddie took the Punisher's advice and ratted out his colleagues. He sought revenge for a while.
Relationship (Lynn Michaels)- Eddie and the "Lady Punisher" were partners on the road for a while.
Reputation (Butt-Monkey)- Eddie tended to take a lot of beatings, and often got drunk in bars while wearing a full costume.

Total: Abilities: 54 / Skills: 20--10 / Advantages: 10 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 10 (84)

-Eddie Dyson was a cop who encountered the Punisher after he took down a wanted criminal- the Punisher let him take credit for the guy's capture, which got Eddie promoted. Later, he takes the Punisher's advice in taking down some corruption within his squad... which gets Eddie's family killed. While Frank is horrified and apologizes (and kills the scum responsible), a badly-injured Eddie is infuriated, and takes on the identity of Payback in order to gain vengeance- he kills some criminals and nearly the Punisher, but Frank convinces him to agree to a truce to finish off the other bad guys. In the end, they are even.

-Curiously, every subsequent Punisher writer (in Frank's THREE titles!) seems to take a minor interest in the guy, though he's probably Frank's least-lucky "associate" by far. In fact, rather than being the "Hercules" to Frank's "Thor" (ie. the guy who gets beaten up so that the villain can look better before the hero beats HIM), he's basically just a butt-monkey, frequently abused by various criminals and corrupt cops during a long-running team-up with Lynn "Lady Punisher" Michaels. Actually, he never even INTERACTS with Frank after his debut- he's basically just Lynn's assistant, helping her shoot her way out of certain situations, or taking beatings on her behalf. And shockingly... EXTREMELY shockingly... he SURVIVES. I mean, the entire time I was reading this bio, I'm like "oh, this dude ABSOLUTELY gets killed by the next villain who needs some credibility" or "this dude TOTALLY gets iced by a 2000s writer who needs a warm body", but nope- Eddie not only survives the entire 1990s, he never reappears in any of the Punisher books from the character's comeback, and is only casually mentioned as a "Possible Initiative Recruit" decades later. Truly strange.

-Payback is a pretty wimpy version of a Gun-Toting Vigilante- he's basically the "Punisher Foe Template" with different skills, all low-tier. He's actually a pretty good look at what you get when you take a Standard Cop Template and just inflate his accuracy up to PL caps without messing with any of his Skills. Again, I'm astonished he survived what were the most routinely-deadly comics on the market.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Jab’s Builds (Mega Man 11! Triumph! The Ray! The Punisher!)

Post by Ares »

greycrusader wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:27 am A few quick notes on your most recent posts, Jab:

Triumph: As I may have stated once before, Dwayne McDuffie's biggest error was thinking "smarter than DC editors and sort of smug about it" was the same as "smarter than DC's best-known heroes, and REALLY smug about it"; Triumph was written as arrogant and self-pitying, without anything to justify it. That being said, SOMETHING likely could have been done with the character, if Morrison hadn't accidentally killed him off. And then, yes, Marvel basically did the SAME EXACT CHARACTER with the Sentry-except the editors/writers made him incredibly important to all of Marvel's heroic history, AND had their best known heroes constantly praise and fawn over him. And they still won't let him go!
It's amazing how similar the concept was (a powerful blonde Silver Age hero who is forgotten due to time travel being brought to the future) was used differently by both companies. Triumph was arrogant, bold, direct and unlikable, Sentry was indecisive, weak-willed and unlikable. Triumph was a butt monkey despite his self-proclaimed importance, Sentry was treated as the best thing ever despite his lack of importance. Triump eventually faded into obscurity, Sentry was continuously pushed until fans and creators were so sick of the character that he self-destructed.

It's like the same character went in opposite directions and STILL wound up mostly hated by the fanbase that are happy they're dead.
Tomorrow Woman: Pretty neat little heroine, actually. I'm tempted to say the original should be left to RIP, but a psychic android/A.I is pretty rare in the genre. Oddly, a closely analogous character was introduced later in a later JLA run, the Batman-sponsored hero Faith, who even looked a bit like Tomorrow Woman, but is almost entirely forgotten about, as her stories made NO impact with readers.
Yeah, I like Joe Kelly as a writer and approved his attempt to introduce new characters to the team, but Faith was such a do-nothing hero, not an especially interesting look, not a really memorable personality, her powers were basic telepathy and telekinesis, and she had some vague "evil organization within the government" origin.

Tomorrow Woman had similar powers, but had a great visual design, a compelling backstory, stood out as being a very sweet character, and made an impact on fans and creators. I'd totally Red Guardian her back into regular existence if I had the chance.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (Mega Man 11! Triumph! The Ray! The Punisher!)

Post by Jabroniville »

So like I said, this was going to be a quick "Punisher Foe Template" until I realized just how long some of these bios were going to be. If I'd known I was going to be doing a "Punisher Set", I'd have probably waited to post certain characters.

So here's some quick links to some Punisher Characters I've already statted:
Lady Punisher
Hitman II (Pierce)
Jigsaw
Ma Gnucci
The Russian


Actually it's been so long since I posted some of these guys (Jigsaw is post #13562, and we're on the 70000s by now!) that they could even be re-posted.
User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 4963
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Master of Vengeance

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:09 pm Image

MASTER OF VENGEANCE (Dwight Faron)
Created By:
Steve Grant & Bob McLeod
First Appearance: Spider-Man #32 (March 1993)
Status: Insane But Alive
God, I've actually got a comic featuring this idiot. The gold-on-black outfit is actually pretty solid for the most part, but wasted on someone this lame. The issue was actually pretty funny, since Spidey had no clue about this guys or why he was so mad at him.

As for a mook like this creating a super-strength serum, I could see him having accidentally re-created the Green Goblin serum that gave Norman Spider-Man-level strength but also caused intense madness, which is why it never gets mass produced. At least with the Power Broker treatment you've got a 50/50 shot of gaining superstrength with no side effects. The Goblin formula gives you super strength but WILL drive you nuts, much like the Super Soldier Serum without the Vita-Ray Process.

Honestly, the most noticeable thing about the issue for me was this bit where Peter Parker comes home after a late night of superheroing, sneaks into bed quietly, and drifts off to sleep with a peaceful smile on his face . . . only for the next panel to have his alarm go off and he's got that face all of us have had when we've gotten maybe 2 minutes of sleep: pure horror.

So MJ, who has had a full nights rest, hops out of bed happy as can be and reminds Peter of what he's got to do today. Peter asks her to get him coffee or something to encourage him to get out of bed . . . and then this happens:

Image

Teenage Ares went from laughing at Peter's misfortune to being very jealous of the guy in the space of a heartbeat. Stuff like this was funny, sexy and reminds me why Peter and MJ were infinitely better as a couple than Peter being single.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

Want to support me and Echoes of the Multiverse? Follow this link to subscribe or donate.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Sniper

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

SNIPER (Rich Van Burian)
Created By:
Carl Potts & Jim Lee
First Appearance: Punisher War Journal #4 (March 1989)
Status: Stabbed and Tossed into an Open Grave
Role: Recurring Nuisance, Hostage-Taker
PL 8 (105)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 9 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 4 (+6)
Deception 3 (+6)
Expertise (Military) 6 (+8)
Expertise (Criminal) 6 (+8)
Insight 2 (+5)
Intimidation 3 (+6)
Investigation 2 (+5)
Perception 5 (+8)
Ranged Combat (Rifles) 2 (+12)
Stealth 2 (+3)
Vehicles 3 (+8)

Advantages:
Equipment 5 (Arsenal), Improved Aim, Improved Critical (Rifles), Evasion, Precise Attack (Ranged/Concealment), Ranged Attack 7

Equipment:
"Guns" Blast 4 (8)
"Knife" Strength-Damage +1 (Feats: Improved Critical) (2)
"Automatic Weapons" Blast 6 (Extras: Multiattack) (Inaccurate -1) (11)
"Grenades" Blast 6 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst) (Diminished Range -1) (17)
"Sniper Rifle" Blast 6 (Feats: Extended Range 2) (Flaws: Distracting) (8)

Offense:
Unarmed +9 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Guns +12 (+4 Ranged Damage, DC 19)
Automatic Weapons +10 (+6 Ranged Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +4, Fortitude +5, Will +5

Complications:
Enemy (The Punisher)

Total: Abilities: 64 / Skills: 38--19 / Advantages: 16 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 10 (105)

-"Sniper" is part of the first Punisher War Journal arc, back when a very new Jim Lee was working on the character. He is as former member of Frank Castle's troop in Vietnam, and an accessory to their commander's big secret- that the troop was unknowingly transporting cocaine out of the jungles. Now, with their C.O. running for the Senate, the still-loyal Sniper began actively taking down the other members of the troop, just in case they could spill the beans. However, the killings of several squadmates earned the attention of Castle in his identity as the Punisher, and he tracked Sniper, who happily bragged/confessed the entire deal. Both men escaped, but Punisher used the confession to convince the would-be senator to confess his crimes to the press, and then commit suicide.

-Sniper, having escaped by means of a hostage, reappeared six issues later, and again in the twenty-first issue. He later turned up working for the Kingpin and fighting both Punisher & Wolverine. Wolvie was dropped fighting a guy called Damage, and the Punisher managed to stab Sniper, and dump him into an open grave, where he died.

-Sniper is handy enough in a scrap to repeatedly avoid capture or death by the Punisher, which is pretty impressive for a non-gimmicked guy. His trademark is actually taking hostages to make his escape, which is pretty brilliant, though tricky to stat out in M&M- I would rule that it's not only a hard shot to make, but a "miss" would hit the hostage.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24695
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Jab’s Builds (Proteus! Paladin! Mega Man 11! Triumph!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Scots Dragon wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:59 pm
KorokoMystia wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:11 am Yeah, "Everything You Know Is Wrong" Retcon Heroes like Triumph, The Sentry, and Blue Marvel can be really annoying (At least Blue Marvel isn't an asshole, and definitely the least annoying of the three). I'm sure they CAN be done right, but I can't really think of an example.
Jessica Jones and Blue Marvel both count as an example of doing it right, to me, because they're actually not Everything You Know Is Wrong heroes.

Blue Marvel is a retcon hero, but he's not really retconned in the same way Triumph or Sentry were. He's retconned into a gap in the Marvel Universe's history, an era left unexplored because the sliding timeline advanced in a way that it was left open and blank, that being the 1950s and 1960s. As such there was space there to insert a new hero that relatively few people had ever heard of, and whose existence was hushed up for the most part, and it doesn't actually detract from any of the existing heroes in the process.

Jessica Jones is retconned less into a gap of the Marvel Universe, and instead into the background. As someone who was never a major hero, but always just there on the sidelines. Unlike the Sentry or Triumph, she's not some kind of super-important figure, she's a burned out alcoholic ex-superhero with deep trauma from her experiences as a superhero. Any impact she actually has on the Marvel Universe after that point is earned in-story. It helps that she was never actually intended to be a new character at all, but that Marvel didn't want Brian Michael Bendis to use Spider-Woman for the story, so he just invented the new minor hero.

Triumph and the Sentry don't work precisely because they do not earn their status in-story at any point.
Yeah, I agree with this- neither character had to hurt others, neither really told us than anyone else's origin story was "WRONG ALL ALONG!", etc. My only issue with Blue Marvel was that he was like the third Supermanalogue Marvel had created in the last ten years, meaning I was already tired of their Flying Bricks by then.
Post Reply